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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Yeah, I noticed the same thing. I'm not sure if he's just using the terms interchangeably or if he's of the opinion that the Chinese government does actually represent the public to some extent. At the bottom (which I excised) he notes a Pew poll showing 77% support for the status quo, but at the same time he's clearly not a fan of the CCP.
 

Foofaraw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
770
It's still just using tax money to run it. Socialism can't coexist with capitalism because the way they are structured are completely different (worker control vs private ownership). Even publicly owned utilities aren't socialist. However, while things like libraries, public services and universal healthcare aren't specifically socialist, especially in a capitalist society, they are still good to have.

Would that mean in order for libraries to be truly socialist, the workers in the library would also need to own the publishing houses? I'm not trying to be flippant, I just don't think I understand what it means to Own the Means of Production. Thanks again.
 

Deleted member 721

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I still feel thats liberal centric specifically Burkes notion that there is a natural hierarchy between man. If i get the time ill look into the research you provided and i now better understand the seperation between those two anarchist forms so thankyou. But couldnt a collective anarchy still be considered far left in way from what ive described? Sure there is no formal government but a collective is still a contract that presides over everyone. A anarcho capitalist society would inevitably lead towards an oligarchy though imo

Regular anarchy there exists no social contract. I hadnt really inquired about anarchism in this way though so thankyou
Anarchism is not my area, i only know the basic, so i cant answer everything because i could say something wrong, even regarding communism im a student too. But the Idea of the anarchist society is a horizontal society, the political decisions are made collectivelly, and could exist temporary hierarchy to solve/handle problems. The bigger writer of anarchism probably is Bakunin:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin
There's some books that explain the theory better.
Regarding the theory of social contract its not used by Marx and i think Bakunin criticizes It directely. They explain How the society works different than Rousseau. You could try to analyze anarchism/communism through Rousseau, but i dont think im qualified to It.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
Anarchism is not my area, i only know the basic, so i cant answer everything because i could say something wrong, even regarding communism im a student too. But the Idea of the anarchist society is a horizontal society, the political decisions are made collectivelly, and could exist temporary hierarchy to solve/handle problems. The bigger writer of anarchism probably is Bakunin:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin
There's some books that explain the theory better.
Regarding the theory of social contract its not used by Marx and i think Bakunin criticizes It directely. They explain How the society works different than Rousseau. You could try to analyze anarchism/communism through Rousseau, but i dont think im qualified to It.

Well then I shall look more into it, good chat though. May I ask what level your at, ba, ma, etc?
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Would that mean in order for libraries to be truly socialist, the workers in the library would also need to own the publishing houses? I'm not trying to be flippant, I just don't think I understand what it means to Own the Means of Production. Thanks again.
To your original question: they'd be considered "far left" if they didn't exist because any sort of publics works projects (at least at a higher level than a municipal one) are seen as "far left" these days.

To your second question about socialism, well, this is actually a pretty tricky thing when it comes to services like libraries. The most literal mode of worker control is just the elimination of the profit-reaping class, which is very easy to understand in the context of current private businesses; food service workers generate more money than they (and their equipment) cost to operate, so the people who own everything profit. If the workers control the restaurant then they receive those ptofits themselves. They don't need to own the farms where the food comes from, or the factories that make their deep friers, they just need to receive the actual worth of their labor (and ideally have some level of decision making power over their business, even if its "choosing who the boss is")

How this works with public services that don't exactly turn a profit (and shouldn't turn profit) is, well, I think this question is actually at the core of a lot of different visions of socialism and communism. Who is the public, and how are public services provided for, and if all business is publicly owned and shared, are all matters that people will give very different answers to.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
My problems with anarchism are largely that whenever I start from some very basic anarchist premises like "free association" and "lack of authoritative violence" basic things like dispute resolution seem to rapidly require the creation of a proto-state and I think you quickly sort of wind up with "just what we have now, but better about things like human rights" and less of what I think most anarchists actually have in mind
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
Bachelor of law, next year makes 10 years since i readed Rousseau LoL.

Edit: but regarding marxism i study for myself, i dont write articles etc.

Had to look that one up, guess we dont have BLs in Canada. I aim myself to get a masters of laws after my BA either here or in england. I question getting a JD but i value my social life too much to be a lawyer
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
My problems with anarchism are largely that whenever I start from some very basic anarchist premises like "free association" and "lack of authoritative violence" basic things like dispute resolution seem to rapidly require the creation of a proto-state and I think you quickly sort of wind up with "just what we have now, but better about things like human rights" and less of what I think most anarchists actually have in mind

All forms of states die, its just anarchism dies quickest haha
 

Deleted member 721

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Had to look that one up, guess we dont have BLs in Canada. I aim myself to get a masters of laws after my BA either here or in england. I question getting a JD but i value my social life too much to be a lawyer
Yeah, i worked as a lawyer for a year. But i decided that life is not meant for me. I'm trying to change carreer now, but If that doesnt work, i Will try public service.
 

Foofaraw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
770
How this works with public services that don't exactly turn a profit (and shouldn't turn profit) is, well, I think this question is actually at the core of a lot of different visions of socialism and communism. Who is the public, and how are public services provided for, and if all business is publicly owned and shared, are all matters that people will give very different answers to.

So, while in America, we talk about things as socialized when we talk about public services, like libraries and the concept of universal healthcare, but this does not actually relate to the definition of Socialism? Did the term come from some meaning of Socialism? Is this were a lot of the infighting comes from? I saw someone in this thread self describe as Libertarian Socialist, which, to my mind, are opposed to each other. However, I may have learned, in this thread, that socialism would prefer no state government, while communism is willing to have state government as they transition toward a true socialism with no state. I suppose that coincides with Socialism. I should probably listen to one of those podcasts mentioned earlier to get some kind of grasp on this situation. Right now, I just don't think I like Neoliberalism, but I still only have a vague understanding of that as well.

Thanks everyone who has taken the time to explain things to me.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
So, while in America, we talk about things as socialized when we talk about public services, like libraries and the concept of universal healthcare, but this does not actually relate to the definition of Socialism? Did the term come from some meaning of Socialism? Is this were a lot of the infighting comes from? I saw someone in this thread self describe as Libertarian Socialist, which, to my mind, are opposed to each other. However, I may have learned, in this thread, that socialism would prefer no state government, while communism is willing to have state government as they transition toward a true socialism with no state. I suppose that coincides with Socialism. I should probably listen to one of those podcasts mentioned earlier to get some kind of grasp on this situation. Right now, I just don't think I like Neoliberalism, but I still only have a vague understanding of that as well.

Thanks everyone who has taken the time to explain things to me.

The association of government spending/public works with socialism comes from the fact that reformist socialists pushed for these policies in the early days as stepping stones to socialism. Socialism in its most basic definition is "the workers controlling the means of production"; since capitalism functions according to market principles, removing areas of the economy from private control and putting it under public, semi-democratic control was therefore a logical way to try to sneak socialism in. The USSR et al. also functioned according to the state mode with little to no private enterprise, further cementing the association, though to what extent these states were actually socialist is an endless debate. You can therefore say that such programs are socialistically inclined without actually necessarily being socialist.

In regards to libertarian socialism, libertarian was a leftist word first before the right stole it. It relates to the idea of people being liberated by having control, democratically, over their lives and workplaces with reduced/no hierarchies and hence is anarchist in orientation. That's why ultra-market liberals took the word for themselves, because they repurposed it to mean "no government control, free markets!" This ignores the fact that capitalism requires authoritarianism in the form of private control to function.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
So, while in America, we talk about things as socialized when we talk about public services, like libraries and the concept of universal healthcare, but this does not actually relate to the definition of Socialism?
Sort of? Its more like public services like libraries serve as good examples of "what if we did that, but for everything", i.e people shared the resources to in turn readily provide goods and services to everyone. Now weather that's via what we think of as a state, or weather its a community of free associative voluntarism sort of defined the...bounds of implementations of socialism. Libertarian socialism isn't a contradiction in terms at all, people just have different beliefs about if it would...work the way its proponents think it would or not.

EDIT: Strictly speaking socialism just refers to the workers owning the means of production as Sphagnum outlines above, but in reality most serious socialists are interested in curbing inequality as well, which doesn't intrinsically go hand in hand, i.e a society in which the software developers all have ownership over their companies and are very wealthy and the food service workers all have ownership over their restaurants and still don't make enough to live comfortably isn't usually seen as an acceptable goal. You can still have wealth inequality without capital holders.
 

Deleted member 721

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Foofaraw every socialist is a communist.
But not every type of communist is socialist.

The socialist state is a transitional state to communism.

Communism does not have state, socialism does.

For example: anarcho communism or libertarian communism is not socialist
 
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OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
EDIT: Strictly speaking socialism just refers to the workers owning the means of production as Sphagnum outlines above, but in reality most serious socialists are interested in curbing inequality as well, which doesn't intrinsically go hand in hand, i.e a society in which the software developers all have ownership over their companies and are very wealthy and the food service workers all have ownership over their restaurants and still don't make enough to live comfortably isn't usually seen as an acceptable goal. You can still have wealth inequality without capital holders.

Right, and thats because socialists view the world through the lens of class struggle. The ultimate goal for all socialists is to eliminate class conflict through a democratized socio-political system, so anything where there are still contending classes hasnt yet reached a "higher phase" of socialism.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Right, and thats because socialists view the world through the lens of class struggle. The ultimate goal for all socialists is to eliminate class conflict through a democratized socio-political system, so anything where there are still contending classes hasnt yet reached a "higher phase" of socialism.
So this is actually a good topic to get into, both as an introductory topic but also because its another one of those subjects that people tend to split off around: if we get the capitalist class (those who leverage their ownership of capital for profit) out of the way what remaining class delineations do we have to reckon with?
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
I think one important point to make is all the wonderful social democrat reforms that centre-of-left people go on about such as the welfare state and free healthcare provided by the state are all great and as radicals we should always support those reforms that are made within capitalism, but what often gets forgotten in these discussions especially among liberals is that those gains within capitalism were actually fought for by hard class struggle and one reason we're socialists is that we have the analysis that all the gains that are made under Capitalism can't actually be maintained in a capitalist system or when they are maintained, they are maintained in the context of a exploitative relationship towards third-world countries i.e imperialism yadda yadda ya.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
So this is actually a good topic to get into, both as an introductory topic but also because its another one of those subjects that people tend to split off around: if we get the capitalist class (those who leverage their ownership of capital for profit) out of the way what remaining class delineations do we have to reckon with?

Well, before getting to class, I would like to mention that there will still be things left over from the old society that also need to be dealt with. Racism, sexism, etc dont disappear just because the mode of production changes. It is true that the superstructure changes as the base changes, but that does not guarantee a progressive change; I just think wiping away the old moneyed interests and the system that helps entrench that power gives oppressed, exploited, and marginalized people a leg up since they will have more democratic power.

In terms of class, it depends on what country we're talking about, what stage of development it is already in, and what form of socialism or attempted-socialism takes hold. In the 20th century they still had to account for conflict between peasants and proletarians, but thats largely gone. Theres the lumpenproletariat which would have to be reintegrated. And you have to watch our for the formation of a new nomenklatura or party elite. The class struggle may hace to intensify after the revolution. If a market socialism is formed, you still get probably differing levels of prosperity and that threatens the formation of a new semi-bourgeoisie, etc.
 

Deleted member 721

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I readed an analysis of a socialist sociologist, that he says something like that with the fall of the sovietic union, they dont fear the unions and the left as before, so after the fall, the plan is not the wellfare state to Control these groups anymore, but extreme neoliberalism or corporativism, end of unions etc.
 
Oct 25, 2017
523
I think one important point to make is all the wonderful social democrat reforms that centre-of-left people go on about such as the welfare state and free healthcare provided by the state are all great and as radicals we should always support those reforms that are made within capitalism, but what often gets forgotten in these discussions especially among liberals is that those gains within capitalism were actually fought for by hard class struggle and one reason we're socialists is that we have the analysis that all the gains that are made under Capitalism can't actually be maintained in a capitalist system or when they are maintained, they are maintained in the context of a exploitative relationship towards third-world countries i.e imperialism yadda yadda ya.
All this is important, but I think in the same way it's valuable to examine what the Soviet Union did well and what they did poorly, it's important to learn from both the successes and failures of the postwar social democratic planners in the west. That shouldn't be the end goal, but it's valuable to learn from and improve upon.
 

Deleted member 1852

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This is a very interesting thread and I'm keeping it watched to see your discussion!

Michael Roberts has an interesting take on the elevation of Xi Jinping Thought in China and how it relates to the economy; he makes the argument that China is neither primarily capitalist nor socialist but some kind of unnamed hybrid. I'm not sure I agree with that analysis but it's interesting food for thought.



https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2017/10/25/xi-takes-full-control-of-chinas-future/
China is fundamentally authoritarian. The Chinese Communist Party does not allow any other political parties or dissent against their rule. However, I don't really believe there is any underlying philosophy or ideology that drives their political vision. It's long been said that Chinese Communism has been devoid of ideology after the death of Mao. It happens that when your policies kill untold millions of your countrymen there is often a negative response afterwards.

Under Deng Xiaoping and Jiang Zemin, China began to make advances towards a capitalist economic structure even as the Party continued to maintain control. Xi Jinping is swinging the pendulum back towards more state ownership of enterprise but really the Party has always controlled everything. Xi's biggest contribution is an attempt to move back towards greater Party control of public discourse, including aggressive censorship of the Internet and other measures to ensure the Party's opinion is the prevailing opinion of the people.

A good article about this appeared on BBC News a few weeks ago:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Thoughts_Chairman_Xi
 
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Rangerx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,507
Dangleberry
Hey another like minded friend popping in! I'll definitely be getting involved in this thread. There needs to be a radical change in my own country Ireland. A bunch of Free marketeers in government.
 

Lime

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Oct 25, 2017
1,266
Quality posts above. Good to see such a level of conversation here.
 

Deleted member 721

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A little break
Some things to relax and laugh a little
AWpdiDC.gif


This rap Battle is very good
Ok, Now back to serious stuff
 
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Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
All forms of states die, its just anarchism dies quickest haha

Anarchism always seems refer to warlordism.

Yeah, I noticed the same thing. I'm not sure if he's just using the terms interchangeably or if he's of the opinion that the Chinese government does actually represent the public to some extent. At the bottom (which I excised) he notes a Pew poll showing 77% support for the status quo, but at the same time he's clearly not a fan of the CCP.

It's impossible to gauge that.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Thought this was a pretty good article from Jayati Ghosh describing the decline of the labor aristocracy in the west due to globalization and some of its effects. It's fairly lengthy so I'm cutting out the more wonkish portions just to get to the conclusion though it's all worth reading. I know not everyone believes in the labor aristocracy in the first place so I'd be interested to hear any other reactions:

Twenty-first century imperialism has changed its form. In the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, it was explicitly related to colonial control; in the second half of the 20th century it relied on a combination of geopolitical and economic control deriving also from the clear dominance of the United States as the global hegemon and leader of the capitalist world (dealing with the potential threat from the Communist world). It now relies more and more on an international legal and regulatory architecture—fortified by various multilateral and bilateral agreements—to establish the power of capital over labor. This has involved a "grand bargain," no less potent for being implicit, between different segments of capital. Capitalist firms in the developing world gained some market access (typically intermediated by multinational capital) and, in return, large capital in highly developed countries got much greater protection and monopoly power, through tighter enforcement of intellectual property rights and greater investment protections.

These measures dramatically increased the bargaining power of capital relative to labor, globally and in every country. In the high-income countries, this eliminated the "labor aristocracy" first theorised by the German Marxist theorist Karl Kautsky in the early 20th century. The concept of the labor aristocracy derived from the idea that the developed capitalist countries, or the "core" of global capitalism, could extract superprofits from impoverished workers in the less developed "periphery." These surpluses could be used to reward workers in the core, relative to those in the periphery, and thereby achieve greater social and political stability in the core countries. This enabled northern capitalism to look like a win-win economic system for capital and labor (in the United States, labor relations between the late 1940s and the 1970s, for example, were widely termed a "capital-labor accord"). Today, the increased bargaining power of capital and the elimination of the labor aristocracy has delegitimated the capitalist system in the rich countries of the global North.

Increasing inequality, the decline in workers' incomes, the decline or absence of social protections, the rise of material insecurity, and a growing alienation from government have come to characterise societies in both developed and developing worlds. These sources of grievance have found political expression in a series of unexpected electoral outcomes (including the "Brexit" vote in the UK and the election of Trump in the United States). The decline of the labor aristocracy—really, its near collapse—has massive implications, as it undermines the social contract that made global capitalism so successful in the previous era. It was the very foundation of political stability and social cohesion within advanced capitalist countries, which is now breaking down, and will continue to break down without a drastic restructuring of the social and economic order. The political response to this decline has been expressed primarily in the rise of right-wing, xenophobic, sectarian, and reactionary political tendencies.

The early 21st century has been a weird time for imperialism. On the one hand, the phase of "hyper-imperialism"—with the United States as the sole capitalist superpower, free to use almost the entire world as its happy hunting ground—is over. Instead, the United States looks significantly weaker both economically and politically, and there is less willingness on the part of other countries (including former and current allies, as well as those that may eventually become rival powers) to accept its writ unconditionally. On the other hand, the imperial overreach that was so evident in the Gulf Wars and sundry other interventions, in the Middle East and around the world, continues despite the decreasing returns from such interventions. This continued through the Obama presidency, and it is still an open question whether the Trump presidency will lead to a dramatic reduction of this overreach ("isolationism") or merely a change in its direction.

The latter point is important, because there is little domestic political appetite in the United States for such imperial adventures, due to the high costs in terms of both government spending and the loss of lives of U.S. soldiers. The slogans that recently resonated with the U.S. electorate, such as that of "making America great again" were in that sense somewhat self-contradictory—looking towards an imagined past in which the American Dream could be fulfilled relatively easily (at least for some), without recognising that this was predicated upon the country's global hegemony and far-flung empire. The global context of imperialism is a complex one, in which the contours shift constantly. Recent political changes in various countries of the North have meant that global strategic alliances are also much more fluid than at any time over the past half century. The most talked-about current examples are the changing attitude of the Trump administration towards the United States' traditional enemy, Russia, and the complicated international politics emerging in Europe, with the Brexit vote and the emergence of right-wing political forces in a number of other European countries. But it is also evident in other parts of the world, notably in China, where traditional friends and foes are no longer so easily demarcated. Yet there is another sense in which the fundamentals of the imperialist process have not changed, even as the forms in which they are expressed are altered.

Defining imperialism broadly, as Lenin did—as the complex intermingling of economic and political interests, related to the efforts of large capital to control economic territory—it's clear that imperialism has not really declined at all. Rather, it has changed in form over the past half century, especially when we embrace a more expansive notion of what constitutes "economic territory." Economic territory includes the more obvious forms such as land and natural resources, as well as labor. These are all still hugely contested: The wars for oil in the Middle East, the continuing attempts at land grabs in Africa, and the struggle over the fruits of extraction of natural resources in parts of Latin America and Asia all testify to this.

But the struggle over economic territory also encompasses the search for and effort to control new markets—defined by both physical location and type of economic process. Understanding territory in this way helps us understand how imperialism is still very much alive and kicking, even though some of the more classic features (such as direct colonial control and annexations) are less in evidence.

One of the key aspects of recent capitalist dynamism has been its ability to create new forms of economic territory, bring them within the realm of capitalist economic relations, and therefore also subject them to imperialist control. Two forms of economic territory that are increasingly subject to capitalist organization and imperialist penetration today are 1) basic amenities and social services (earlier seen as the sole preserve of public provision) and 2) the generation and distribution of knowledge. A major feature of our times is the privatization of areas that, until recently, were generally accepted as public responsibilities.

... (big cut here with the economic details)...

These processes imply worsening material conditions, for most workers, in both the periphery and the core. Imperialism has generally weakened the capacity for autonomous development in the global South, and worsened economic conditions for workers and small producers there, so that is not altogether surprising. The growth of employment and wages in China is as a break from that pattern and an example of some benefits of global integration, at least for a subset of working people in the developing world. The beneficiaries, however, remain a minority of the workers in the global South. In other countries generally seen as "success stories" of globalization, like India, the economic realities for most people are much bleaker.

The more obvious—and potent—change that has resulted from this phase of global imperialism has been the decline of the labor aristocracy in the North. The opening of trade, and with it a global supply of labor, meant that imperialist-country capital was no longer as interested in maintaining a social contract with workers in the "home" country. Instead, it could use its greater bargaining power to push for ever-greater shares of national income everywhere it operated. This was further intensified by the greater power of mobile finance capital, which was also able to increase its share of income as well. In the advanced economies at the core of global capitalism, this process (which began in the United States in the 1990s) was greatly intensified during the global boom of the 2000s, when median workers' wages stagnated and even declined in the global North, even as per capita incomes soared. The increase in incomes, therefore, was captured by stockholders, corporate executives, financial rentiers, etc.

The political fallout of this has now become glaringly evident. Increasing inequality, stagnant real incomes of working people, and the increasing material fragility of daily life have all contributed to a deep dissatisfaction among ordinary people in the rich countries. While even the poor among them are still far better off than the vast majority of people in the developing world, their own perceptions are quite different, and they increasingly see themselves as the victims of globalization. Decades of neoliberal economic policies have hollowed out communities in depressed areas and eliminated any attractive employment opportunities for youth. Ironically, in the United States this favored the political rise of Donald Trump, who is himself emblematic of the plutocracy.

Similar tendencies are also clearly evident in Europe. Rising anti-EU sentiment has been wrongly attributed only to policies allowing in more migrants. The hostile response to immigration is part of a broader dissatisfaction related to the design and operation of the EU. For years now, it has been clear that the EU has failed as an economic project. This stems from the very design of the economic integration—flawed, for example, in the enforcement of monetary integration without banking union or a fiscal federation that would have helped deal with imbalances between EU countries—as well as from the particular neoliberal economic policies that it has forced its members to pursue.

...

It is sad but not entirely surprising that the globalization of the workforce has not created a greater sense of international solidarity, but rather undermined it. Quite obviously, progressive solutions cannot be found within the existing dominant economic paradigm. But reversions to past ideals of socialism may not be all that effective either. Rather, this new situation requires new and more relevant economic models of socialism to be developed, if they are to capture the popular imagination. Such models must transcend the traditional socialist paradigm's emphasis on centralized government control over an undifferentiated mass of workers. They must incorporate more explicit emphasis on the rights and concerns of women, ethnic minorities, tribal communities, and other marginalised groups, as well as recognition of ecological constraints and the social necessity to respect nature. The fundamental premises of the socialist project, however, remain as valid as ever: The unequal, exploitative and oppressive nature of capitalism; the capacity of human beings to change society and thereby alter their own futures; and the necessity of collective organisation to do so.

http://www.socialisteconomist.com/2017/10/globalization-and-end-of-labor.html?m=1
 

Hat22

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Oct 28, 2017
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I think that article embodies everything wrong with the modern workers movement. It's leaders placate the people with social issues while issues that affect the everyday people's interests fall to the side and get ignored while neoliberalism ravages the land.

The entire left is basically devolving and becoming like Labor Party of the UK.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

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Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I think that article embodies everything wrong with the modern workers movement. It's leaders placate the people with social issues while issues that affect the everyday people's interests fall to the side and get ignored while neoliberalism ravages the land.

The entire left is basically devolving and becoming like Labor Party of the UK.

Im not sure what you're referring to - did you hone in on a couple sentences in the last paragraph about being intersectional? The vast bulk of the article is about how capitalist imperialism via globalization is affecting the working classes in the global north and south.
 

Deleted member 721

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About UK and what you guys are talking:

"All this should be compared with numerous references by Marx and Engels to the example of the British labor movement, showing how industrial "property" leads to attempts "to buy the proletariat" (Briefwechsel, Vol. 1, p. 136).[3] to divert them from the struggle; how this prosperity in general "demoralizes the workers" (Vol. 2, p. 218); how the British proletariat becomes "bourgeoisified"—"this most bourgeois of all nations is apparently aiming ultimately at the possession of a bourgeois aristocracy and a bourgeois proletariat alongside the bourgeoisie" Chartists (1866; Vol. 3, p. 305)[4]; how the British workers' leaders are becoming a type midway between "a radical bourgeois and a worker" (in reference to Holyoak, Vol. 4, p. 209); how, owning to Britain's monopoly, and as long as that monopoly lasts, "the British workingman will not budge" (Vol. 4, p. 433).[5] The tactics of the economic struggle, in connection with the general course (and outcome) of the working-class movement, are considered here from a remarkably broad, comprehensive, dialectical, and genuinely revolutionary standpoint."

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/granat/index.htm

Its in tactics of class strugle, this is a brief biography of Marx wrote by Lenin and with an exposition of marxism

Its good, and fast to read.
 

Shy

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Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I think that article embodies everything wrong with the modern workers movement. It's leaders placate the people with social issues while issues that affect the everyday people's interests fall to the side and get ignored while neoliberalism ravages the land.

The entire left is basically devolving and becoming like Labor Party of the UK.
Social issues are important. Racism won't go away if you get rid of classism, sexism won't go away if you get rid of classism. Bigotry will still be present.

And they need to be addressed.
 

corn93

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Oct 25, 2017
158
Social issues are important. Racism won't go away if you get rid of classism, sexism won't go away if you get rid of classism. Bigotry will still be present.

And they need to be addressed.

I think the issue is that economic issues aren't addressed at all in American "left" circles.

Like, people will jizz themselves over Target having a rainbow logo for LGBT Pride Month. Companies can mistreat workers and have exploitative business practices so long as they appeal to gender/sexual orientation issues.
 

Hat22

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Oct 28, 2017
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Social issues are important. Racism won't go away if you get rid of classism, sexism won't go away if you get rid of classism. Bigotry will still be present.

And they need to be addressed.

The issues isn't the social issues themselves but the use of the issues. People will boycott companies over LGBT and race issues but there is never a big move to boycott a company over worker abuse issues or the use of slave (or slave-like) labor from developing countries.

Politicians cloak themselves as progressive through social issues while being full on corporatists.
 
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Shy

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Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I think the issue is that economic issues aren't addressed at all in American "left" circles.

Like, people will jizz themselves over Target having a rainbow logo for LGBT Pride Month. Companies can mistreat workers and have exploitative business practices so long as they appeal to gender/sexual orientation issues.
The issues isn't the social issues themselves but the use of the issues. People will boycott companies over issues over LGBT and race issues but there is never a big move to boycott a company over worker abuse issues or the use of slave (or slave-like) labor from developing countries.

Politicians cloak themselves as progressive through social issues while being full on corporatists.
Ahh. I see what you're both saying.

Just need to be sure. As there's a very big problem of completely dismissing those issues on the left.

And i was afraid it was happening in here also.
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
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Melbourne, Australia
A practical experience in Australia here shows that it's absolutely essential that the workers movement takes up social issues. In Australia we are in the midst of a postal survey asking australians whether they support same-sex marriage, and unions have come out very strong on campaigning around this issue, which has lead to unions such as the construction and electrical workers unions holding meetings on work sites about why you should vote yes for the marriage equality survey and while they have faced backlash from more conservative workers who believe unions should take up economic issues and nothing more, they have consistently made the argument on why "equality is union business" (a article here covers that topic in greater detail https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/why-marriage-equality-union-business from that context).

I think a another important thing is that the reality that lots of people in first-world capitalist countries are mobilizing around social issues moreso than economic ones, I think the left should play the role of linking those social issues to the question of class and not dismissing those social issues off-hand, that's where we can really show the strengths of our politics, that liberal practices of identity politics simply can't offer, especially since par to my above example, while that's a example of some great work that has being done in unions, it's political trajectory is ultimately quite limited in it's imagination.

Hat22: that said I think I'd probably strongly disagree with you on your assessment of the UK Labor party and Corbyn more generally and I think it's a weirdly placed reference in the context of your post because the Corbyn and Sanders campaign are actually examples people who identity with the left mobilizing around a progressive economic program and they certainly weren't campaigns that narrowly focused on social issues.
 

KingK

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Oct 27, 2017
4,859
Cool thread, I'll be lurking and maybe occasionally participating. I always appreciate sphagnum's posts and almost always find myself nodding in agreement.

I'm definitely someone who believes socialism is going to have to be a big part of the solution to this century's big problems and technological disruption/automation.
 

Deleted member 721

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Imo Corbyn and Sanders are Very good to their respective parties and i think we should support them, but idk If they will leave the reformism camp, i Hope so, but only time will tell. I think what hat is talking its that the big part of the left today is reformist or even a less brutal version of a neo liberalist. Like Tony Blair and i think thats the labour party he was talking about.
 

Mezentine

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Oct 25, 2017
9,978
My big "thing" that anyone who's familiar with me will know is that one of my most intent, consistent points of critique of modern leftist movements is how we perceive the struggle around racialized conflict, gendered conflict, and other conflicts along axes of marginalization and oppression.
I swear I'm not trying to sound pretentious I just want to be really precise here because I think reducing these to "social issues" is a thing we actually struggle with. Its not that I think most people on the left, including socialists and democratic socialists, actually think issues like racism are unimportant (okay some of them do), pretty much everyone, when asked, goes "of course hate crimes are horrible, of course violence against gay people and trans people and such is abhorrent".
But I do think there is, more often then I'd like, an underestimation of just how much these issues are themselves actual barriers to economic progress and the socialist vision. Its not even "we can make progress on economic and social gains simultaneously", its that these oppressions and people's complicity and sometimes enthusiasm for them are actual barriers to the more economic gains

The way I've been putting it is "there are legitimate fronts of intra-class conflict that undermine class solidarity". Legitimate not in that there's some valid basis for it, but in that white supremacists legitimately hold their beliefs and act on them. We should be wary of how much we ascribe these divisions to the ruling classes tricking the people to keep them at each other's throats. America has a long history of making strides in labor and economics and finding ways to cleverly exclude black people from them.
 

Hat22

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The way I've been putting it is "there are legitimate fronts of intra-class conflict that undermine class solidarity". Legitimate not in that there's some valid basis for it, but in that white supremacists legitimately hold their beliefs and act on them. We should be wary of how much we ascribe these divisions to the ruling classes tricking the people to keep them at each other's throats. America has a long history of making strides in labor and economics and finding ways to cleverly exclude black people from them.

Bernie Sanders really shook up the primary arguing for a Fourth(??) New Deal. Obviously a lot of people want to see massive infrastructure projects, employment programs and more laws that protect the economy and people.

However, race divisions are harmful and cannot be used by the left. Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton (not left, I know) drove away white working class voters by pandering to BLM. I don't care about the movement much myself but lets be honest, it's got a few vocal people that hate white people and don't think that whites have any real problems. The most widely shown BLM members were upper-middle-class blacks that were racist against whites so pandering to this crowd drove away whites.

Hillary thought she had the white working class people in the rust belt under her wraps because of the Democrats legacy but Trump actually talked about economic stuff while she focused exclusively on social issues and gun control... and had extremely shady wall street speeches leak and all that. Trump also undermined her entirely by talking about social issues himself very briefly.

Poor whites are being treated as a sideshow by the left and this explains both Brexit and the rise of the far right. I don't think Brexit is a bad thing and I have no idea why any socialist would support the EU but Brexit was at the end of the day brought about by working class whites that didn't want immigrants.
 

Deleted member 721

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Hat, reverse racism doesnt exist. Intersectionality is important, what the right do to criminalize the blm movement they do to the communists and anarchists.
 

Mezentine

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Bernie Sanders really shook up the primary arguing for a Fourth(??) New Deal. Obviously a lot of people want to see massive infrastructure projects, employment programs and more laws that protect the economy and people.

However, race divisions are harmful and cannot be used by the left. Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton (not left, I know) drove away white working class voters by pandering to BLM. I don't care about the movement much myself but lets be honest, it's got a few vocal people that hate white people and don't think that whites have any real problems. The most widely shown BLM members were upper-middle-class blacks that were racist against whites so pandering to this crowd drove away whites.

Hillary thought she had the white working class people in the rust belt under her wraps because of the Democrats legacy but Trump actually talked about economic stuff while she focused exclusively on social issues and gun control... and had extremely shady wall street speeches leak and all that. Trump also undermined her entirely by talking about social issues himself very briefly.

Poor whites are being treated as a sideshow by the left and this explains both Brexit and the rise of the far right. I don't think Brexit is a bad thing and I have no idea why any socialist would support the EU but Brexit was at the end of the day brought about by working class whites that didn't want immigrants.
I don't think I agree with any of this
 

Deleted member 721

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Racism is systematic, and who gets the privilege of It are white people. Sometimes this anger against the system can be directed against individuals, but this individual still is privileged by the society. If it existed a country where white people are systematic opressed by the country, culture and people we could talk about racism against white people.
 

Hat22

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Racism is systematic, and who gets the privilege of It are white people. Sometimes this anger against the system can be directed against individuals, but this individual still is privileged by the society. If it existed a country where white people are systematic opressed by the country, culture and people we could talk about racism against white people.

How about we just call that systematic racism and use the term racism to refer to racist behavior.

A poor toothless white idiot can still be racist towards Obama (even when he was president) and black people people can still hate white, brown and asian people.

This all just seems like a word game so that you can say that only whites can be racist. Of course, Mugabe was pretty racist towards white people and brown people and he used his power to basically kick them out of his country so I don't really get what you mean.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

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Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Hoo boy.

However, race divisions are harmful and cannot be used by the left. Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton (not left, I know) drove away white working class voters by pandering to BLM.

First, I'm not sure how Bernie drove anyone off when he wasn't the nominee; if anything the data from the primaries shows he had a bit less minority support/a bit more white support than Hillary and this was probably in part due to the fact that he focuses primarily on a class-first approach, which is what you are proposing, and which without proper intersectionality can come off as ignoring other issues. Hillary probably did drive off whites by embracing civil rights as a platform plank, but that does not mean she did a bad thing in that regard. We're socialists. Our duty is to always seek justice for the oppressed and exploited. I do not think ignoring, or frankly insulting, minorities (who you say were being "pandered" to), who face the brunt of the viciousness of the capitalist state, is a good way to win them over to the cause.

By the way, taking a class-only approach would be "pandering" to whites.

Let me put it this way. Bernie had a minority problem, Hillary had a white problem. Both were because each group felt it was not being listened to enough, but in the case of the whites it's because they didnt want to hear what the minorities have to say. Minorities are a-ok with hearing about all the economic stuff the left wants to do, but when whites hear about racism they turn their minds off and out their fingers in their ears because they don't want to deal with it. That is a problem on the part of the white voting base - partially because the right wing uses race as a division tactic by hyping up fears about minorities, partly because thats been there in white society since the beginning. But to say that "race is divisive" and leave it at that is absurd, because it's only divisive to one group - the privileged one.

What we need to do is not ignore black peoples' problems so we can placate skittish whites, but refocus the target on the real enemy - the rich, who finance and uphold the system that is grounding everyone, including whites, into the dust. Show how these racial fears are nonsense dredged up by the right wing media. And stop supporting the neoliberal system that is creating these divisions. In other words, uphold both social and economic justice boldly.

You can't tell minorities to just keep waiting their turn.

I don't care about the movement much myself but lets be honest, it's got a few vocal people that hate white people and don't think that whites have any real problems. The most widely shown BLM members were upper-middle-class blacks that were racist against whites so pandering to this crowd drove away whites.

1. Why dont you support BLM? Because its not explicitly socialist? You can support multiple things at once. Think about the real conditions in the US.

2. Who are these people and what media sources are you following? It sounds like you're just referring to Fox News propaganda.

3. BLM isn't racist.

Hillary thought she had the white working class people in the rust belt under her wraps because of the Democrats legacy but Trump actually talked about economic stuff while she focused exclusively on social issues and gun control... and had extremely shady wall street speeches leak and all that. Trump also undermined her entirely by talking about social issues himself very briefly.

Yes, Hillary (and neoliberal Dems in general) got lazy and dont really display too much interest in the ongoing collapse of the labor aristocracy (see the previous article I posted that I'm not convinced you read fully). That's true, and that's why Bernie was a breath of fresh air. But this analysis ignores that Hillary did have economic stances - just very wonkish and liberal ones - and the fact that Trump also surged because of his racial views.

Poor whites are being treated as a sideshow by the left and this explains both Brexit and the rise of the far right.

Partially, yes. But throwing minorities to the wolves to pursue whites is just following the overton window to the right on social justoce issues. We need to hit back harder and show minorities we care about issues that affect them.

I don't think Brexit is a bad thing and I have no idea why any socialist would support the EU but Brexit was at the end of the day brought about by working class whites that didn't want immigrants.

I'll leave Brexit up to British people, but that last sentence does not mean we should not fight for immigrants' rights.

edit: fixed bad spelling
 
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lmcfigs

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Oct 25, 2017
12,091
I think Bernie has shown that a lot of democrats really don't respond very well to a class-based approach. Which is probably right, but if your takeaway from the election was that Bernie pandered too much to BLM and others, then I feel like we haven't learned much at all.