I don't remember if it's in the anime but in the manga there's a panel of him knocking Goku off his ass during a training montage
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Dragon Ball Super |OT6| The waiting game
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
- Start date
Great moment. I also enjoyed Jiren calling Hit rubbish.
I feel like what he wants isn't a problem but some of the points he brings up just aren't really good.
To be fair, he actually had a decent video about Goku being a flat character archetype, which cover several points me and others have been stating for years, but props for him finally putting it out there to a wider audience. He also had a good one about the problem with Toyo's Super manga, specifically his art and panelling.
But he does seem to have a very narrow definition of storytelling since Jiren was never meant to be the 'main' antagonist. He has the same role as Tien and Hit, they're the dragons/most powerful force in the arc, but they're not the main driving force. Like beating Jiren early wouldn't have ended the TOP. This isn't bad storytelling, that's just the role Jiren had, and even then he was far from passive since he acted several times. If Jiren is passive, so is almost everyone else in this arc outside of Goku who started everything.
That and calling the TOP a sporting event where you root for your favorite team is just wrong, since if U7 lost, they would have been erased since no one outside of Vegeta ironically, voiced the idea of bringing back other universes. If Jiren won, he would have made a selfish wish, which would have gotten everyone erased in the anime.
A poster on Kanzenshuu I regularly talks to actually said it bests, although I don't completely agree with all their points. It's long, so I will spoiler tag it for anyone who is interested:
First, I disagree with the idea that Jiren sparked that much notable division in the fanbase. We had more extreme divisiveness over whether Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu.
I don't see what he's talking about with the 'antagonists not working together'. There's no tension to the outcome because we have no reason to believe the other universes would misuse the wish? The Arc isn't trying to get us to panic on what wish will be made by the other universes, it's the erasure of other universes that come at the cost of the wish. Also, I don't think you can really call the Zeno's antagonists. They set up the tournament, but their role in the narrative never acts as an obstacle to the protagonists and winning does not require overcoming them and what not.
What the fuck is this stuff about Jiren being a passive antagonist because his only control of the situation is his strength? It's a fighting tournament, being the biggest badass kind of gives you the most control over the situation. Even then, that's not what being a passive character means. A passive character is one that doesn't really make decisions or actions for themselves, everything they do is pushed by the plot. Jiren makes his own decisions and actions based upon his personal philosophy and only intervenes when he deems it worthy of his time. He decides to come to Dyspo's rescue, he decides to fight Kale, he decides to meditate instead of going after everyone else. He's actively going against what the plot is pushing him to do.
"The goal is to defeat Jiren, but he alone isn't the only thing to create the tension in the first place" Okay, I don't think this guy knows how tournament arcs work. The antagonist is usually the looming threat for the climax, but isn't the only threat, that doesn't take away tension, it just makes the journey to the climax feel more like an arduous hike instead of a brief walk. The attack on tension comes when the lesser antagonists come off as a bigger and more worthy threat than the main.
I get that Jiren definitely comes off as less interesting or engaging than other villains since, at the start, he doesn't really establish something with the protags yet. He doesn't do something to make the idea of fighting him more personal, he doesn't initiate a rivalry with the main characters, he just shows that he will be a tough cookie to crumble. And I can totally see why that's a bad thing, but in my opinion, I think this kind of works for Jiren. I overall think of Jiren as a meh character, but I think he was intentionally written this way because his art in the arc is of Goku and Co chipping away at the front he's putting on, the philosophy he's desperately clinging on to. He's trying to be the walking muscle stereotype that Dragon Ball is seen as by non-Dragon Ball fans, but Goku and Co break his shell to show that he's more on the inside.
"It's more like a sporting event where you're rooting for the team you know, instead of an actual story" But that is a legitimate form of storytelling thou. The crux and tension of the arc aren't even entirely on Jiren, nor is the investment in going 'God, I hate or like that character!', it's seeing all the Dragon Ball veterans being forced to work together in a unique way in this stressful situation where everything is on the line. And that's okay, stories are allowed, and sometimes even enhanced, to have an antagonistic force more than an antagonistic character where the antagonist is more the situation than a specific character.
I would say Jiren not having much of a reaction to Goku is exactly what makes his interactions with Goku until the bursting point so unique. Think about it, whenever Goku meets a villain, the interaction usually boils down to them being so surprised and taken aback by Goku's antics, entirely disbelieving that he could be any sort of threat. With Jiren, his no-sell reaction in the face of Goku's ridiculous antics (Which might be symbolism for the Dragon Ball Stereotype blowing off the ridiculous and comedic heart of Dragon Ball) makes him feel more off-putting because it's not something we're really used too. Plus, Jiren's lack of reactions is what enhances the moments where he does react.
Oh bullshit, the question of if they will be able to outlast Jiren is just as suspenseful as if they can win before a timer. Time limits aren't the only good tool of suspense, man.
"It isn't about a dynamic between characters, it's just about a tournament" How?! FUCKING HOW!? The entire arc is about the dynamic between characters and how they influence each other, it is one giant examination of the effect Goku as well as the other Universe's 'protags' have had on characters. The tournament is merely the situation.
Overall, this dude just seems to really be restricting his ideas of storytelling to push the Tournament of power as a non-story.
I don't see what he's talking about with the 'antagonists not working together'. There's no tension to the outcome because we have no reason to believe the other universes would misuse the wish? The Arc isn't trying to get us to panic on what wish will be made by the other universes, it's the erasure of other universes that come at the cost of the wish. Also, I don't think you can really call the Zeno's antagonists. They set up the tournament, but their role in the narrative never acts as an obstacle to the protagonists and winning does not require overcoming them and what not.
What the fuck is this stuff about Jiren being a passive antagonist because his only control of the situation is his strength? It's a fighting tournament, being the biggest badass kind of gives you the most control over the situation. Even then, that's not what being a passive character means. A passive character is one that doesn't really make decisions or actions for themselves, everything they do is pushed by the plot. Jiren makes his own decisions and actions based upon his personal philosophy and only intervenes when he deems it worthy of his time. He decides to come to Dyspo's rescue, he decides to fight Kale, he decides to meditate instead of going after everyone else. He's actively going against what the plot is pushing him to do.
"The goal is to defeat Jiren, but he alone isn't the only thing to create the tension in the first place" Okay, I don't think this guy knows how tournament arcs work. The antagonist is usually the looming threat for the climax, but isn't the only threat, that doesn't take away tension, it just makes the journey to the climax feel more like an arduous hike instead of a brief walk. The attack on tension comes when the lesser antagonists come off as a bigger and more worthy threat than the main.
I get that Jiren definitely comes off as less interesting or engaging than other villains since, at the start, he doesn't really establish something with the protags yet. He doesn't do something to make the idea of fighting him more personal, he doesn't initiate a rivalry with the main characters, he just shows that he will be a tough cookie to crumble. And I can totally see why that's a bad thing, but in my opinion, I think this kind of works for Jiren. I overall think of Jiren as a meh character, but I think he was intentionally written this way because his art in the arc is of Goku and Co chipping away at the front he's putting on, the philosophy he's desperately clinging on to. He's trying to be the walking muscle stereotype that Dragon Ball is seen as by non-Dragon Ball fans, but Goku and Co break his shell to show that he's more on the inside.
"It's more like a sporting event where you're rooting for the team you know, instead of an actual story" But that is a legitimate form of storytelling thou. The crux and tension of the arc aren't even entirely on Jiren, nor is the investment in going 'God, I hate or like that character!', it's seeing all the Dragon Ball veterans being forced to work together in a unique way in this stressful situation where everything is on the line. And that's okay, stories are allowed, and sometimes even enhanced, to have an antagonistic force more than an antagonistic character where the antagonist is more the situation than a specific character.
I would say Jiren not having much of a reaction to Goku is exactly what makes his interactions with Goku until the bursting point so unique. Think about it, whenever Goku meets a villain, the interaction usually boils down to them being so surprised and taken aback by Goku's antics, entirely disbelieving that he could be any sort of threat. With Jiren, his no-sell reaction in the face of Goku's ridiculous antics (Which might be symbolism for the Dragon Ball Stereotype blowing off the ridiculous and comedic heart of Dragon Ball) makes him feel more off-putting because it's not something we're really used too. Plus, Jiren's lack of reactions is what enhances the moments where he does react.
Oh bullshit, the question of if they will be able to outlast Jiren is just as suspenseful as if they can win before a timer. Time limits aren't the only good tool of suspense, man.
"It isn't about a dynamic between characters, it's just about a tournament" How?! FUCKING HOW!? The entire arc is about the dynamic between characters and how they influence each other, it is one giant examination of the effect Goku as well as the other Universe's 'protags' have had on characters. The tournament is merely the situation.
Overall, this dude just seems to really be restricting his ideas of storytelling to push the Tournament of power as a non-story.
Yeah I haven't seen many, but the first one I saw was the Goku vid and I thought that was good. Then I think Ilistened to the Vegeta and Broly one but don't remember anything about them lol Idk if it's just me though. Then the Jiren one I'll probably remember for having quite a few disagreeable points.
What if they did a plot twist that Satan's ex wife was a 2nd sayian that survived on earth
And videl was a secret half sayian
And she became useful in the but saga
And videl was a secret half sayian
And she became useful in the but saga
I never said he didn't have some good thoughts. The recent one with Jiren and the ToP overall just wasn't very good.
His Goku one is something that should be common knowledge but it isn't.
I'm pretty sure it is common knowledge that's Goku is a "flat" character (just maybe not in those words). I always see people mentioning it whether it is to critisize him or just state facts.
OP
OP
I think a big part of the enjoyment of Goku's character comes from how other characters react to him.
OP
OP
I say having everything taken from him.
Goku is a very classic Shonen MC. They don't change, the world around them do and they're usually the ones who caused the change. You see this in Fist if the North Star, Ranma, and Jo Jo.
More like he's a very classic shonen MC, he'll never have everything taken from him (permanently anyway)
Perfect moment was when Jiren was beating that ass
will goku ever have this moment
is such a moment even possible in the world of dragon ball
I'm picturing Goku saying that, but with a huge ass Hisoka-esque smile on his face
In a sense, yeah. He wants to improve and surpass others but he loves it when there are far superior fighters out there so he can meet that challenge and try to overcome it
The moment would be after Beerus beat him and did it again even with Super Saiyan God.
If Goku did reached a moment where he lost something and he believes he couldn't recovered it, you get a rage machine like he was on Namek since he truly through Krillin was gone forever since he couldn't be revived with the Earth's Dragon Balls and the Namekian Dragon died. In other words, I think he will become like Gon.
You can see it too
"I'm too weak!"
*bright light emanating from crotch*
Speaking of Dragon Ball YouTubers, MistareFusion is really going at "Modern Dragon Ball" for lacking "soul", I distinctly remember him ranting that the Goku vs. Jiren fight was garbage. I'm like "dude, read Naruto or Bleach's final arcs. Then you'll see what garbage really looks like."
I don't like being dismissive ( I think that guy is quite good and smart) but I think a lot of critiques like that comes down to nostalgia.
'Lacking soul' is the most nothing argument on the internet.
And you can hate Goku vs Jiren on a personal level, but objectively it's easily one of the best fights of 2018, both from choreography and animation (see Ajay's breakdown for more details). Like you can hate Boruto and think the entire show is garbage, but almost no one debuts that Naruto and Sasuke vs Momoshiki was the best fight of 2018.
You mean like UI Goku vs Jiren? That's subjective af. I dont really care for that sort of abrupt animation style it had going for a lot of it. I thought the end fight was much better.
"And you can hate Goku vs Jiren on a personal level, but objectively it's easily one of the best fights of 2018, both from choreography and animation (see Ajay's breakdown for more details)."
You can not like the style of something, but acknowledged it's great on an objective level. It's like you can not like Broly vs Gogeta, but you can't say the choreography was bad. That and I'm not even sure what you mean but 'abrupt animation style'.
i would argue that Goku vs Jiren was better tbh, Naruto and Sasuke vs Momoshiki might have a bit of an edge when it comes to animation, but i preferred Goku vs Jiren in every other aspect
Meh. As I said, subjective. I can agree the choreography is good, but the animation doesn't do it any favors for me. I wouldn't say it's "objectively" too high on the list of best 2018 fights. It's like people trying to tell me Tate is a great animator on the show and I should objectively think that because he's 'fluid", but it goes hand in hand with art for me. Some animator on the show can be even more fluid than tate, but draw everyone as really hi def squiggly lines I'm not going to call him/her a good db animator.
But we can both agree that All Might vs All for One winning best fight of 2018 on CR is BS, right?
Except I wasn't talking about subject, which is why I specifically said 'objective'. Something can be objective superior and not liked for personal reasons like how you don't like Tate.
Tate is a great animator. You can despises his style and the way he chose to animate, but objectively speaking he's one of the best. That and you preferring an art style doesn't make Tate inherently inferior.
The finale between Jiren vs Goku, 17, and Frieza had a better emotional payoff than UI Goku vs Jiren, especially if you're a long time Dragon Ball fan, but the choreography and animation were noticeably inferior.
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yes, i might have accepted United States of Smash as best moment, but the fight itself was nothing special
Good animator =/= good db animator. Gotta have a balance of making the characters look good and have good movement. If not, I'm not going to call you a good db animator. (See again my example involving the squiggly lines) I dont think I've ever tried to push him not being a good animator altogether. The coreohraoghy was great in the last fight and the animation was much more up my alley, so I find that to be the better fight. I can't hate on the choreography itself for the Jiren vs Goku fight, I don't doubt its good, but I factor in both animation and corepgraphy when it comes to judging fights, and I thought the last fight had a batter balance which made a better fight.
will goku ever have this moment
is such a moment even possible in the world of dragon ball
I think Goku did cry when he beat Piccolo Daimao in Dragon Ball.
Not really, that's an argument of preference. To me, good animation is good animation, regardless if it's Dragon Ball, One Piece, or MHA. Trying to say 'this style or animation is bad for this particular anime' limited creativity, imo. It's about as annoying as the 'Breath of the Wild is a great game, but a poor Zelda game'. Which is why I liked that the Broly movie tried to be different and did a lot of 'non-Dragon Ball' things, even if I didn't like all of it.
And again, I am not talking about subjectively. I am saying that objectively speaking, regardless of preference or bias, Goku vs Jiren was a superior fight in terms of animation and choreography than Jiren vs Goku, Frieza, and 17. That one thing that fight had over the former was the emotional payoff.
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And what you think is objective isn't objective. You're not addressing my squiggly line example.
I will lay it out for you again.
A good show animator can animate with good movement, while keeping a good look for the characters. No one here can tell me that an animator who is "technically more fluid" than Tate, yet always draws everyone in hi def squiggly lines is a better db animator than Tate because he's "more fluid". Yeah, this hypothetical individual clearly has skill, and can work well for something, but not db. (Unless he changes his style) Unless you disagree that would be bad 🤔
And what is a good look for the characters is subjective, and will change from person to person. I dont think his "fluidity" makes up for how he consistently draws the characters, so I don't think he's a good db animator. It's subjective. You can't being some "objective" bar of perspective to prove my opinion as laid out is invalid in this instance.
It would be him screaming "I'm too stroooong!!!"
will goku ever have this moment
is such a moment even possible in the world of dragon ball
I guess the closest would be the first super Saiyan transformation.
But now it's established that no death is permanent in dragon ball, so yeah. We got dragon balls wishing back entire universes like it's no big deal.
It would be cool if they could find a way to make death matter again. Or at least if the characters sold it a bit more. I see characters dying in infinity war and it's pretty heartbreaking, even if you know their deaths aren't permanent, and a lot of that had to do with the acting and the reactions of the characters who live.
With dragon ball it's like "hehe it's ok we can wish them back with the dragon balls!!!! Mcdonaldseyesgoku.jpg"
But now it's established that no death is permanent in dragon ball, so yeah. We got dragon balls wishing back entire universes like it's no big deal.
It would be cool if they could find a way to make death matter again. Or at least if the characters sold it a bit more. I see characters dying in infinity war and it's pretty heartbreaking, even if you know their deaths aren't permanent, and a lot of that had to do with the acting and the reactions of the characters who live.
With dragon ball it's like "hehe it's ok we can wish them back with the dragon balls!!!! Mcdonaldseyesgoku.jpg"