there was a rumor that we could have up to 128 stream processors per CU in Navi. Up from 64. So even if they have the 64 CU limit, the additional SPs will double the tflops per CU.
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Next gen PS5 and next Xbox launch speculation - Secret sauces spicing 2019
- Thread starter Phoenix Splash
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However he said this when the talk of the town was that Sony was still on board for a Fall 2019 launch, according to Benji. So his claim may very well not come to fruition any longer.
"and of course our hardware team, the same team that delivered unprecedented performance with xbox one x is deep into architecting the next xbox consoles - where we will once again deliver on our commitment to set the benchmark for console gaming"
Phil @ E3 2018
Phil @ E3 2018
This doesn't alleviate the pressure on the front-end to fill the execution paths, however. It just repartitions the same resources.
This is where tricks like variable wavefront sizing come in, potentially.
Yeah. Reminds me of how great the design of the X is. People point to 100 dollars increase over the Pro. But with that increase came better GPU, higher clocked CPU, 3d audio in dolby atmos sound, Freesync support, advanced cooling solution, More ram, etc etc. The whole package was spectacular and it looks like MS will continue this with Scarlet.
True. The year later made as much of a difference too though.
https://youtu.be/pIzwo-MxCC8
was this ever talked about here and is it similar to what people are saying sony is doing with there sound?
was this ever talked about here and is it similar to what people are saying sony is doing with there sound?
Wow...
This can be huge.
A 60CU box with the One X GPU clock can reach 18TF :o
He keeps going back and forth because the only way to GARAUNTEE a better console when you're using the same principal vendor and releasing in the same time period is to either A) price the console more expensive B) take a substantial loss. Or a combination of both
3d audio is what Dolby Atmos is. Supported with X but I think you have to purchase a separate app license for it. I believe.
I've been thinking back one this heat sink patent from Sony:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2018216627A1.pdf
And then I think about that HBM rumor from the last few days... having the HBM stacks directly under the APU, and using this heat sink design for better cooling. Could be something there...
I had forgotten about this...
Yeah, Dolby Atmos costs money, like $10 or $15. Windows Sonic is a free version that only works with headphones (also on Win10). DTS:X is also being released soon I thought. I'd imagine that will also cost money for the license.
Makes me wonder if this was a partly Sony wide creation in an attempt to challenge Dolby Atmos. Sony makes tvs, headphones, soundbars, movies, tv shows. They even just purchased wwise. Their could be some synergy there. Pulling out of my ass, but maybe a situation where the games division splits their r and d budget with other divisions and frees up some space in the piggy bank for some other things. It's not implausible
Edit: plot the budget tin regards just to this 3d sound thing I mean. Cerny did make sure to point out it works with tv speakers as well, not just headphones
Edit: or it may not be a cost savings and they jumped in on it with it being another divisions brainchild. Maybe ps5 is being used to push this thing. Arrogant Sony is back lol jk
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Yeah its a way for Microsoft to recoup fees. Smart. Sony using their own proprietary 3d audio is probably also to avoid fees.
If it turns out PS5 really has HBM2 Anex will be grinning like a Cheshire cat :)
Doesn't some of that sound pie in the sky? Buys up bad chips, then happens to find a vendor with a new method that fixes the problem as to why those bad chips were sold off in the first place. Also, they need to rely on buying bad chips to create the atleast initial. Millions of ps5s. I honestly don't see it, unless omeone ore in the know could enlighten me
triton is different than atmos
atmos/sonic is basically just taking a 7.1 / 5.1 feed and processing it into a binaural sound using doppler effects and stuff to make it sound 3d or to make the 7.1/5.1 feed sound like they are coming from different sources. lots of tricks to be used here.
we as humans have only 2 ears to begin with, so there's a lot of room for this field of research.
triton is more like EAX where it's trying to get the right reverb for the room they're in.
atmos/sonic is basically just taking a 7.1 / 5.1 feed and processing it into a binaural sound using doppler effects and stuff to make it sound 3d or to make the 7.1/5.1 feed sound like they are coming from different sources. lots of tricks to be used here.
we as humans have only 2 ears to begin with, so there's a lot of room for this field of research.
triton is more like EAX where it's trying to get the right reverb for the room they're in.
We ain't getting a 600mm^2 console die.
They should just bundle this in with the cost of a mixamp on all premium headsets.
Man some of you guys need to chillax, I know this can be emotional but let's be level-headed.
Both PS5 and X2 will be uber powerful.
Both PS5 and X2 will be uber powerful.
Sounds too good to be true but, hey I still remember people back in the old forum saying stuff like: "no way PS4 has 8 GB of GDDR5, it's too expensive".
4tf paperweight, lol this is a youtube comments style of remark.
But when have we seen the bolded happen?
A Machine learning A. I game?
You know what one the most important thing is for modern A. I is?
It's scale, devs would get far better A. I using the cloud, 8tflop is not going to do shit for modern A. I
Plus what your saying is has never been done before and is a very limited scenario which will probably never happen.
huh?
having complex A.I and physics simulations is literally the main selling point of next generation of consoles. i would say nearly all games will have fancy effects like that. be it fancy destruction effects we saw in the UE4 demo, denser crowd and cities or ray tracing effects that just wont scale down to a 4 tflops console.
you can forget all about ray tracing on a 4tflops console too.
Yes, a license for it was included with my headphones. It helps, but Atmos is simply an encoding format that tells the receiver/sound processor where the sound is coming from. Then the Atmos receiver uses whatever speakers it has to put the sound in the right place in the room.
The 3D surround that Sony is talking about is something dynamically calculated in realtime for the changing game conditions. That is then encoded into a surround format, like Dolby Digital, DTS or Atmos.
Aureal 3D in the late 90's was the best 3D game sound of the type Sony is talking about I've ever heard. It blew me away. Unfortunately, nothing like it has ever become a standard in video games... and that sucks. Everytime I play COD Blackout and deal with it's shitty simulated positional audio, I get pissed off, thinking of how amazing it would be with something like Aureal.
I don't understand how the compute requirements can be the same though for wire frame models which draw less pixels, yes the physics will be the same but at lower resolutions less data is needed to be drawn.
How can less data = the same performance requirements?
And to TheThreadsThatBindUs you have said time and time again that this is the reason, but you have not explained why it this the case, you can say until your blue in the face that physics calculation require the same gpu resoures regardless off resolution, but you have not explained why.
So please don't say in reply to this "I have already explained why" you have stated a reason but you have not explained why that reason is so.
Also I thought physics calculations were more CPU bound.
While i get what you're saying, it's harder to make a game for multiple SKUs and it could end up "ghimping" next gen games.
So let's take FIFA as an example. If MS comes out with 2 SKUs and Sony 1, do they use the low end ms console as the base and add some extra bells and whistles to the 2 powerfull consoles? Or do they take the 2 and go all out with physics and AI and make a "dumbed down" version for the weaker Xbox?
If it's the former, then the people buying the powerfull consoles won't get the same game that would have been made had the low end console not existed.
His example is like a PS4 game with ps3 just cause 2 graphics, but using 1.6tflops to do machine learning A. I
It's never been done before so why all of a sudden will devs start doing it now?
Also what A. I are we talking about here?
This A. I walker agent is don't with Google cloud power, what the hell is 8tflop Ai going to look like?
Just my $.02 but I don't agree that certain prices are not possible based on what's been announced. Navi + SSD + Zen2 iself do not preclude $399 or even $299 or $199. Nothing about what was revealed should indicate what price point Sony is going to hit.
Until we know TFLOPS (CU's affect die area = heat = price), storage size (big difference between 256, 500, 1tb and 2tb - much bigger than platter drives), and amount of memory, I don't think any price is off the table.
I certainly have an option on how they will balance those things (and my opinion isn't worth much) but I don't think you can take a hard stance on this issue based on what has been disclosed.
Until we know TFLOPS (CU's affect die area = heat = price), storage size (big difference between 256, 500, 1tb and 2tb - much bigger than platter drives), and amount of memory, I don't think any price is off the table.
I certainly have an option on how they will balance those things (and my opinion isn't worth much) but I don't think you can take a hard stance on this issue based on what has been disclosed.
Yes, this is why i wouldn't discard the HBM rumour yet....
I made the mistake of thinking like that too before [B]anexanhume[/B] corrected me.
If CU SPs go up from 64 to 128 then that means that each CU will be almost twice as big. So if they could fit say 60 (64sp) CUs in an APU of say 350mm2 they would then be able to fit only like 35 or 40.
The "benchmark" can be anything Phil Spencer wants it to be. If they get beat on GPU performance Phil can turn around and say the benchmark this gen is CPU performance (or vice versa) or cloud compute (for realz this time) or remote play or GaaS.
I don't know how to explain it more clearly, but I'll give it a shot.
Physics calculations depend on geometry, materials, and forces, and none of that changes based on resolution of the drawing. Imagine a bridge building game. The player designs a bridge, sets winds, and instructs a truck to drive over it. Imagine the game doesn't draw anything at all after that point and just lights up a light on the front panel of the console if the truck makes it to the other side. The same amount of physics compute resources are needed to determine if the truck made it to the other side no matter if you draw the truck moving or not, and to be clear, that can be a lot of resources.
If you want the game to draw all that happening, that's a separate thing that also takes CPU/GPU time.
I've run physics sims that don't draw anything while the physics computations run for hours, resolution is almost completely meaningless for things like that.
If they moved to 128SP per CU, my guess is that Navi10 would be 40CUs. Navi20 which releases later would probably be the 60-64CU version.
However, 128SPs are very unlikely. My guess is 72SPs to reach 10TFs with 48CUs for Navi10.
We've talked about this a while back in this thread, we are better off waiting for a few leaks from the AMD partner meeting on tuesday or Computex in the end of may.
Thanks, I've been waiting for this.
Time to give it a watch.
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Hi again Mr Penello!
What do you think about possible HBM2 memory in one of the next gen consoles?
Thank you so much for this. I have been preachin this all thread long lol.
And furthermore no one here can even know what kinda deals are being made when securing these components in the quantities that they will be secured. Most here just look at off the shelf hardware and how much those cost and make their price speculations from there.
its possible. sure. but they had no issue revealing the 4.2tflops Pro number well after the X1X 6 tflops announcement. i think they dont want to reveal the number because they dont want to reveal their hand just yet. especially to MS who seems intent on trying to get the most powerful console out there.
Here is a silver lining for you. At $399, 8 tflops made sense. $399 means no fancy cooling and a smallish converative APU. However, the mention of SSD and ray tracing changes everything. SSDs alone will push the cost over $399. And if they are going over $399 why not add a vapor chamber cooling solution and push the clocks on the GPU to get 12-14 tflops and keep MS from getting a big 4-6 tflops advantage with their $499 console.
I am 99% sure that the console wont retail for $399 now that it has an SSD. The fact that are willing to add fancy new chips just for 3d audio means they have more than enough budget in their BOM. even if that thing costs like $10 a pop, thats $10 that couldve been spent on a more RAM, more cooling, bigger APU, bigger SSD etc.
I think Phil pushed them to ditch their plans for a $399 console and once they realized they had an extra $100 to spend, they went for SSDs, dedicated 3d audio chips, vapor chamber cooling to allow for a 12-14 tflops GPU, and maybe even dedicated RTX cores for ray tracing. i dont think they talk about ray tracing if its just an 8 tflops console.
Minimum PC specs are going to be the lowest common denominator. All the fretting about Lockheart is misguided. All IMHO, of course
I can see them taking losses on it at launch, a larger loss, and with some speculating on a $100 loss I could see it being a $450-$480 machine for $399. I just can't see Sony going higher especially if Xbox has a $300-$350 Lockhart. I know that sounds like a lot for a $400 machine but they make more money on services now then they did in 2013 when PS4 launched
You can get a 1TB SSD for $100-$130 now, with profit included for the manufacturers and retailer selling it. A HDD in 2013 added like $30-40 for consoles so I can see them getting a 1TB SSD for $40 per unit in 2020. I don't think a SSD rules out 399 completely
Yeah because Xbox who are the ones actually making both possible consoles are definitley going to ensure that their own first party games can't take full advantage of the stronger option, are people serious with some of this?
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