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Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
8,460
The EGS would be in a much better place if the people most invested in it would stop vomiting sanctimonious rubbish all over the place and just let people cool off and accept it. All this is going to do is crystallize the fury into a serious boycott.

The sanctimonious rubbish has been going on since its inception last Dec.

Randy sounds like he started this long 'twit' with the intent to be level headed and reasonable and ended up writing it at 3 am after two coffees.......

Just say "We took the money" and while it won't undo the damage of say not providing steam keys to kickstarter backers or removing a game after preorders have gone up on steam, at least we're less likely to take it personally.
 

Astra Planeta

Member
Jan 26, 2018
668
what prevented Epic from literally just copy pasting all the features of Steam for EGS?

They wanted to get it out when Fortnite was still red hot. It has largely worked, outside of a vocal minority they have a ton of installs and seem to have a good relationship with publishers. Epic has also been in the game a long time, so they know what to do to survive. If they had delayed release they could have missed a nice window.

In a year or two no one will care anyways, people forgot about Sony's brutal hack in 2011, people forgot how much they hated Valve when steam first came out, and they will forget about this as well. Store exclusives are the new reality. I don't agree with everything Randy said, but someone did need to challenge valve, and valve won't be beaten on feature parity, since if Epic only released with feature parity and no exclusives, people would just use steam. They need to give you a reason to install their launcher, and exclusives are the best way.
 

Shogun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,434
He is not 100% wrong as Valve is a growing problem in the PC space, but the dude sounds deluded for the most part

I mean if it wasn't for Valve the PC space wouldn't be anywhere near as big as it is. Rather than run from the PC space screaming Piracy!!! Valve actually put some work in and researched why piracy actually happens. They fixed regional pricing, offered a better service and gained customers as a result.

Fast forward to today and we've got Epic back in the PC space with sacks of money telling us PC gamers how great they are. Like thanks Valve for fixing and growing the PC market but we'll take it from here.

Then people come in here and wonder why not everybody is ready to play ball. Show us the consumers why it's to our benefit to use the EGS store rather than just posting on twitter about it.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
They wanted to get it out when Fortnite was still red hot. It has largely worked, outside of a vocal minority they have a ton of installs and seem to have a good relationship with publishers. Epic has also been in the game a long time, so they know what to do to survive. If they had delayed release they could have missed a nice window.

In a year or two no one will care anyways, people forgot about Sony's brutal hack in 2011, people forgot how much they hated Valve when steam first came out, and they will forget about this as well. Store exclusives are the new reality. I don't agree with everything Randy said, but someone did need to challenge valve, and valve won't be beaten on feature parity, since if Epic only released with feature parity and no exclusives, people would just use steam. They need to give you a reason to install their launcher, and exclusives are the best way.

Then they should have invested like Valve did in the beginning in making their launcher relevant. Valve put all their games on the system drawing attention for others wanting to get in on the digital distribution front.

What has epic done outside of throwing money at publishers/developers for certain big games that were going to be on multiple store fronts?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
I think the point being made is that the industry trusts epic. As in publishers, studios and developers. Not customers.

This is a succinct way to put it, and the real distinction at the heart of this controversy that has made all of the EGS apologists look completely out of touch with dedicated PC players. From a consumer's standpoint, Steam's purported monopoly is not a problem in need of solving, so throughout this whole mess, players on Steam have justly felt pushed around by forces and interests totally out of their control.

For one thing, it's certainly not the case that Valve has been sitting on their cash and not investing in the platform. Whatever you think of Pitchford, the premise that Steam is a lumbering monolith riding off momentum simply does not ring true (contrary to how it might for, say, Facebook, an unmitigated catastrophe of software and services that everyone has wanted to desert for an eternity now, only they can't afford to lose the networks they have built). It's easy to point at Valve as a stagnant company that doesn't make games anymore and can't count to three, a perception that has stuck to their game development side for almost a decade now, but it's not even remotely true of the services, which have been refined and iterated upon in minute and meaningful ways that are only possible on a mature platform where all of the basics can already be taken for granted. Steam is now at the point where it is able to attend to extremely specific demands, essential to a tiny number of corner-case players and invisible to everyone else.

*

I've mainly stayed out of the EGS/Steam threads as there isn't much for me to add that hasn't already been said, but the situation with Borderlands 3 has been on my mind lately, as my main game all April has been The Pre-Sequel, and I think walking through my anecdotal "user story" is illustrative here.

In March, the Handsome Collection went on sale. I looked up a third-party price tracker to see how often this went on sale, how deeply, and for how long (and this isn't a Steam service, I know, but a side benefit of public access to this data over a long stretch of time). I checked whether there was a bundle price adjustment for already owning vanilla Borderlands 2. I looked over the activity stats just out of curiosity, even though I mainly intended to play solo. I scanned over reviews of The Pre-Sequel, the main draw for me here and a game I've been putting off for five years, mostly to estimate how much playtime I could expect and be alert to any known issues. (Steam reviews may not be that useful as review content, but they're exceptionally useful for getting a picture of what the experience is like after X hours, as games aren't the same experience at 10 hours as they are at 50 or 500.) I saw that reviews were mostly negative, but was also presented with a convenient bar graph illustrating a recent spike in negative reviews, informing me that some form of review-bombing was going on so I could look into the cause myself and assess if it would affect my decision (as it sometimes does, in the case of game-breaking patches or rough transitions from early access to release).

Then I bought the game, in my regional currency—knowing that a two-hour refund window would be there if I needed it, with zero overhead of dealing with customer service. Now, one thing you have to know about me is that I am an extremely (some would say irrationally) fussy player when it comes to controls. I resent dual-analogue controls for FPS and have always played them with a mouse and keyboard, but was also frustrated with how Borderlands 2 was so visibly designed for controllers first that the KB+M experience was dreadful for both vehicles and UI/inventory navigation. As a Nintendo player I also can't abide the backwards ABXY layout and confirm/cancel placement on the Xbox pad. Luckily, Steam allows me to link up my Switch Pro Controller with out-of-the-box support for the Nintendo layout, and with a vast range of configurability for gyro controls that first came in with support for the Steam Controller.

So I put about 50 hours into TPS with motion controls and Nintendo buttons—a happy compromise between tolerable aiming and Borderlands' controller-centric menus/driving—and it was by far the best FPS experience I have ever had with a controller. I plan to replay Borderlands 2 this way later in the year, and it has also done more than anything else to pique my interest in Borderlands 3, which I will want to play this way, or not at all.

I never considered picking up BL3 on the Epic Games Store anyway, as I'm patient and would be happy to wait several years for DLC-complete editions and steep discounts to kick in (all on Steam). I expect to play it in 2024, and we'll see how the platform war looks then. But looking over my entire history with TPS this month—from the initial purchasing decision to the configuration to the playing experience (and not even getting into benefits I take for granted like cloud saves that work over PC/Mac cross-buy)—it has become forcefully clear to me that Steam is an even more critical piece of the puzzle than I took it for. Steam is a part of this story from start to finish.

*

Now, something like playing with motion controls and the Nintendo layout is the kind of highly specific use case that individual developers will practically never address themselves; you need a services-level solution. And maybe it's the kind of thing that EGS will implement eventually, if we credulously buy into Pitchford's bet that Epic's investment in services will outpace Valve's. But the key to why PC players are so attached to Steam is that while they might not be dependent on this feature set, many of them rely on some feature set at this level of obscurity. And much of what I've talked about here, from user-configurable gyro support to review-bombing protection, comes from recent and active support of Steam for benefits that many people won't ever think about—things we never knew we wanted but now can't live without.

No, none of this was there when I first installed Steam on the promise of a free Portal giveaway and a looming Civilization V exclusive back in 2010. But EGS isn't competing with the Steam of 2010, the platform of free Portal and flash sales. It's competing with the modern PC ecosystem itself.

This is not a crumbling platform that anyone is desperate to leave on the consumer side, not even with the hook of freebies and exclusives, and for all the lip service we're getting about how the features might be there someday once the players are there, it should be incredibly clear to anyone looking at this with their head on straight that Epic isn't even particularly interested in established PC players as their market. They're pulling in the Fortnite crowd and perhaps younger players with no money to spend and no accumulated backlogs or friends lists to worry about. I find it very telling that I've seen Epic's free giveaways promoted and circulated by people on my social networks that have never touched a video game in their lives and have no idea a storefront conflict is going on, just in case their friends were interested. All the implicit messaging suggests to me is that existing PC players on Steam are not the audience.
 
Last edited:

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
User Banned (3 Days): Arguing in bath faith by repeating refuted talking points across multiple topics
You can't be serious, right?

The company that has already proclaimed that PC gaming will be dead by 2018, left the market with the strawman argument called piracy, told Facebook to save PC gaming because they simply didn't care anymore and is now trying to force itself back by anti-consumer practices has earned our trust and shows fair play and good will? Come on.

There are some ways to defend Epic's strategy. Saying that Epic has earned our trust and is showing fair play is none of those ways.
I was waiting for someone to make this "they called us pirates" argument.

You seem to take that bit personally as a PC gamer yourself, but you wouldn't verify or read on how that comment/story originated. Please find some articles from back in the day and try to get some context on who said what. There were two people who made the note about piracy and one of them was Cliff Blezinski who people on this forum love to dismiss and not take seriously. But somehow his words are now the word of God in this matter and describes whole of Epic's stance "Epic called us pirates and then left".

As for Epic abandoning PC gaming, may I ask where exactly did they do that? Gears not being on PC was due to Microsoft's involvement. Every other game they made was/has launched on PC...except for the mobile title Infinity Blade.

Epic also helped the indie game development and on PC none the less a TON with Unreal Engine 3...back at a time when developers were struggling to even just start production due to technical issues. They also went above and beyond to provide extra featureset for UE3 that one could only benefit from if they had a PC. The engine UE3 i.e. was originally designed simultaneously with Gears of War 1 so much of the engine was centred around making 30FPS games for Xbox 360..this was long before the pirate comment by Cliff btw..this was back when UT2004 was hit shit and people loved Epic. They could've just left it at that but they made the engine suitable for a PC environment as well despite its original design.

These stories usually circulate because somewhere someone read something written by someone else who read it off an article with clickbaity paraphrased headline. And somehow they become the accepted truth even when it isn't.
 
Last edited:

Astra Planeta

Member
Jan 26, 2018
668
Then they should have invested like Valve did in the beginning in making their launcher relevant. Valve put all their games on the system drawing attention for others wanting to get in on the digital distribution front.

What has epic done outside of throwing money at publishers/developers for certain big games that were going to be on multiple store fronts?

Valve REQUIRED steam for half life 2, which was a big deal at the time, no one liked it. It was down a lot, and was very buggy, it was definitely worse than buying a game on CD or DVD in 2003. Steam super sucked when it came out. Valve did it to lock in people to their platform, and it worked. What epic is doing is the 2019 version of that. Both companies really only care about the bottom line, so really you cant fault one and not the other. I don't like the fact that Epic is doing what its doing, but I can see why they are doing it.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
They wanted to get it out when Fortnite was still red hot. It has largely worked, outside of a vocal minority they have a ton of installs and seem to have a good relationship with publishers. Epic has also been in the game a long time, so they know what to do to survive. If they had delayed release they could have missed a nice window.

In a year or two no one will care anyways, people forgot about Sony's brutal hack in 2011, people forgot how much they hated Valve when steam first came out, and they will forget about this as well. Store exclusives are the new reality. I don't agree with everything Randy said, but someone did need to challenge valve, and valve won't be beaten on feature parity, since if Epic only released with feature parity and no exclusives, people would just use steam. They need to give you a reason to install their launcher, and exclusives are the best way.
The question is whether or not anyone's buying games. Epic's own numbers suggest there isn't a lot of interest in their store among their existing install base (off the top of my head, the figures from GDC was 85 million users of the Epic Launcher, of which 4.5 million activated the free copy of Slime Rancher, which is a conversion rate of a bit over 5%. When you consider that Epic sent a notification to all users of the Epic Launcher about the free copy of Slime Rancher, that's not a great conversion rate).

The other question is out of the people paying for games on the Epic Games Store, how many of said games are indie games. AAA PC games doing well outside of Steam is far from new (see also everything EA's done the last eight years, everything Blizzard's done ever etc), but haven't seen many indie games do well outside of the Steam ecosystem (Minecraft being the one and seemingly only exception anyone can come up with). There's zero evidence of any indie games selling well on EGS.
 

Laser Man

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,683
I retroactively regret playing Blue Shift and Opposing Force, these Mississippi ship poker playing USB magicians have some powerful spells!
 

Shogun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,434
This is a succinct way to put it, and the real distinction at the heart of this controversy that has made all of the EGS apologists look completely out of touch with dedicated PC players. From a consumer's standpoint, Steam's purported monopoly is not a problem in need of solving, so throughout this whole mess, players on Steam have justly felt pushed around by forces and interests totally out of their control.

For one thing, it's certainly not the case that Valve has been sitting on their cash and not investing in the platform. Whatever you think of Pitchford, the premise that Steam is a lumbering monolith riding off momentum simply does not ring true (contrary to how it might for, say, Facebook, an unmitigated catastrophe of software and services that everyone has wanted to desert for an eternity now, only they can't afford to lose the networks they have built). It's easy to point at Valve as a stagnant company that doesn't make games anymore and can't count to three, a perception that has stuck to their game development side for almost a decade now, but it's not even remotely true of the services, which have been refined and iterated upon in minute and meaningful ways that are only possible on a mature platform where all of the basics can already be taken for granted. Steam is now at the point where it is able to attend to extremely specific demands, essential to a tiny number of corner-case players and invisible to everyone else.

*

I've mainly stayed out of the EGS/Steam threads as there isn't much for me to add that hasn't already been said, but the situation with Borderlands 3 has been on my mind lately, as my main game all April has been The Pre-Sequel, and I think walking through my anecdotal "user story" is illustrative here.

In March, the Handsome Collection went on sale. I looked up a third-party price tracker to see how often this went on sale, how deeply, and for how long (and this isn't a Steam service, I know, but a side benefit of public access to this data over a long stretch of time). I checked whether there was a bundle price adjustment for already owning vanilla Borderlands 2. I looked over the activity stats just out of curiosity, even though I mainly intended to play solo. I scanned over reviews of The Pre-Sequel, the main draw for me here and a game I've been putting off for five years, mostly to estimate how much playtime I could expect and be alert to any known issues. (Steam reviews may not be that useful as review content, but they're exceptionally useful for getting a picture of what the experience is like after X hours, as games aren't the same experience at 10 hours as they are at 50 or 500.) I saw that reviews were mostly negative, but was also presented with a convenient bar graph illustrating a recent spike in negative reviews, informing me that some form of review-bombing was going on so I could look into the cause myself and assess if it would affect my decision (as it sometimes does, in the case of game-breaking patches or rough transitions from early access to release).

Then I bought the game, in my regional currency—knowing that a two-hour refund window would be there if I needed it, with zero overhead of dealing with customer service. Now, one thing you have to know about me is that I am an extremely (some would say irrationally) fussy player when it comes to controls. I resent dual-analogue controls for FPS and have always played them with a mouse and keyboard, but was also frustrated with how Borderlands 2 was so visibly designed for controllers first that the KB+M experience was dreadful for both vehicles and UI/inventory navigation. As a Nintendo player I also can't abide the backwards ABXY layout and confirm/cancel placement on the Xbox pad. Luckily, Steam allows me to link up my Switch Pro Controller with out-of-the-box support for the Nintendo layout, and with a vast range of configurability for gyro controls that first came in with support for the Steam Controller.

So I put about 50 hours into TPS with motion controls and Nintendo buttons—a happy compromise between tolerable aiming and Borderlands' controller-centric menus/driving—and it was by far the best FPS experience I have ever had with a controller. I plan to replay Borderlands 2 this way later in the year, and it has also done more than anything else to pique my interest in Borderlands 3, which I will want to play this way, or not at all.

I never considered picking up B3 on the Epic Games Store anyway, as I'm patient and would be happy to wait several years for DLC-complete editions and steep discounts to kick in (all on Steam). I expect to play it in 2024, and we'll see how the platform war looks then. But looking over my entire history with TPS this month—from the initial purchasing decision to the configuration to the playing experience (and not even getting into benefits I take for granted like cloud saves that work over PC/Mac cross-buy)—it has become forcefully clear to me that Steam is an even more critical piece of the puzzle than I took it for. Steam is a part of this story from start to finish.

*

Now, something like playing with motion controls and the Nintendo layout is the kind of highly specific use case that individual developers will practically never address themselves; you need a services-level solution. And maybe it's the kind of thing that EGS will implement eventually, if we credulously buy into Pitchford's bet that Epic's investment in services will outpace Valve's. But the key to why PC players are so attached to Steam is that while they might not be dependent on this feature set, many of them rely on some feature set at this level of obscurity. And much of what I've talked about here, from user-configurable gyro support to review-bombing protection, comes from recent and active support of Steam for benefits that many people won't ever think about—things we never knew we wanted but now can't live without.

No, none of this was there when I first installed Steam on the promise of a free Portal giveaway and a looming Civilization V exclusive back in 2010. But EGS isn't competing with the Steam of 2010, the platform of free Portal and flash sales. It's competing with the modern PC ecosystem itself.

This is not a crumbling platform that anyone is desperate to leave on the consumer side, not even with the hook of freebies and exclusives, and for all the lip service we're getting about how the features might be there someday once the players are there, it should be incredibly clear to anyone looking at this with their head on straight that Epic isn't even particularly interested in established PC players as their market. They're pulling in the Fortnite crowd and perhaps younger players with no money to spend and no accumulated backlogs or friends lists to worry about. I find it very telling that I've seen Epic's free giveaways promoted and circulated by people on my social networks that have never touched a video game in their lives and have no idea a storefront conflict is going on, just in case their friends were interested. All the implicit messaging suggests to me is that existing PC players on Steam are not the audience.


What a fantastic post. This should be required reading before posting in an EGS thread. Brilliant.
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,054
i will trust a developer to have better insight on these things than random peoplet

Developers have more experience than me at making games, but I have just as much experience - or more - than they do at being a consumer. They also don't have the perspective of a normal consumer, so no, I won't take their word over my own.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
I was waiting for someone to make this "they called us pirates" argument.

You seem to take that bit personally as a PC gamer yourself, but you wouldn't verify or read on how that comment/story originated. Please find some articles from back in the day and try to get some context on who said what. There were two people who made the note about piracy and one of them was Cliff Blezinski who people on this forum love to dismiss and not take seriously. But somehow his words are now the word of God in this matter and describes whole of Epic's stance "Epic called us pirates and then left".

As for Epic abandoning PC gaming, may I ask where exactly did they do that? Gears not being on PC was due to Microsoft's involvement. Every other game they made was/has launched on PC...except for the mobile title Infinity Blade.

Epic also helped the indie game development and on PC none the less a TON with Unreal Engine 3...back at a time when developers were struggling to even just start production due to technical issues. They also went above and beyond to provide extra featureset for UE3 that one could only benefit from if they had a PC. The engine UE3 i.e. was originally designed simultaneously with Gears of War 1 so much of the engine was centred around making 30FPS games for Xbox 360..this was long before the pirate comment by Cliff btw..this was back when UT2004 was hit shit and people loved Epic. They could've just left it at that but they made the engine suitable for a PC environment as well despite its original design.

This is just Cliff Blezinki?

https://www.dsogaming.com/news/epic...nd-the-current-battle-between-pc-vs-consoles/

Direct quotes from Tim Sweeney = Cliff Blezinki only said that?

Why is this need to engage in Historical revisionism to defend Epic?

The true irony in all of this? Epic has been recently talking about how the current Pc market is perfect for them to enter without speaking about the History Steam's involvement in getting the market to his point for Epic to enter as a store.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
Valve REQUIRED steam for half life 2, which was a big deal at the time, no one liked it. It was down a lot, and was very buggy, it was definitely worse than buying a game on CD or DVD in 2003. Steam super sucked when it came out. Valve did it to lock in people to their platform, and it worked. What epic is doing is the 2019 version of that. Both companies really only care about the bottom line, so really you cant fault one and not the other. I don't like the fact that Epic is doing what its doing, but I can see why they are doing it.
This is a bit like arguing Sony is bad for making Jak & Daxter exclusive to the PlayStation 2, therefore Microsoft moneyhatting Rise of the Tomb Raider should be accepted. There is a very clear distinction between "games made and funded by the platform holder is exclusive to said platform" and "platform paying third party developers to not release on anyone else's platform".
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
Valve REQUIRED steam for half life 2, which was a big deal at the time, no one liked it. It was down a lot, and was very buggy, it was definitely worse than buying a game on CD or DVD in 2003. Steam super sucked when it came out. Valve did it to lock in people to their platform, and it worked. What epic is doing is the 2019 version of that. Both companies really only care about the bottom line, so really you cant fault one and not the other. I don't like the fact that Epic is doing what its doing, but I can see why they are doing it.

Ok? It was their risk to take? It was their own fucking game? They wanted to try something, and btw you could install it via disc's and use steam as just the launcher for it.

But it was seriously 2003-2004 they wanted to take a risk. They were not forcing anyone else but themselves to put their own game up on the store?

So again they took the risk and yes like anything, it was buggy. But also paved the way for digital distribution. They took the risk and reaped the reward?

What risk is epic taking? The developers are the ones taking the big risk that literally could end their studio if the game doesn't do well on the store.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
This is a succinct way to put it, and the real distinction at the heart of this controversy that has made all of the EGS apologists look completely out of touch with dedicated PC players. From a consumer's standpoint, Steam's purported monopoly is not a problem in need of solving, so throughout this whole mess, players on Steam have justly felt pushed around by forces and interests totally out of their control.

For one thing, it's certainly not the case that Valve has been sitting on their cash and not investing in the platform. Whatever you think of Pitchford, the premise that Steam is a lumbering monolith riding off momentum simply does not ring true (contrary to how it might for, say, Facebook, an unmitigated catastrophe of software and services that everyone has wanted to desert for an eternity now, only they can't afford to lose the networks they have built). It's easy to point at Valve as a stagnant company that doesn't make games anymore and can't count to three, a perception that has stuck to their game development side for almost a decade now, but it's not even remotely true of the services, which have been refined and iterated upon in minute and meaningful ways that are only possible on a mature platform where all of the basics can already be taken for granted. Steam is now at the point where it is able to attend to extremely specific demands, essential to a tiny number of corner-case players and invisible to everyone else.

*

I've mainly stayed out of the EGS/Steam threads as there isn't much for me to add that hasn't already been said, but the situation with Borderlands 3 has been on my mind lately, as my main game all April has been The Pre-Sequel, and I think walking through my anecdotal "user story" is illustrative here.

In March, the Handsome Collection went on sale. I looked up a third-party price tracker to see how often this went on sale, how deeply, and for how long (and this isn't a Steam service, I know, but a side benefit of public access to this data over a long stretch of time). I checked whether there was a bundle price adjustment for already owning vanilla Borderlands 2. I looked over the activity stats just out of curiosity, even though I mainly intended to play solo. I scanned over reviews of The Pre-Sequel, the main draw for me here and a game I've been putting off for five years, mostly to estimate how much playtime I could expect and be alert to any known issues. (Steam reviews may not be that useful as review content, but they're exceptionally useful for getting a picture of what the experience is like after X hours, as games aren't the same experience at 10 hours as they are at 50 or 500.) I saw that reviews were mostly negative, but was also presented with a convenient bar graph illustrating a recent spike in negative reviews, informing me that some form of review-bombing was going on so I could look into the cause myself and assess if it would affect my decision (as it sometimes does, in the case of game-breaking patches or rough transitions from early access to release).

Then I bought the game, in my regional currency—knowing that a two-hour refund window would be there if I needed it, with zero overhead of dealing with customer service. Now, one thing you have to know about me is that I am an extremely (some would say irrationally) fussy player when it comes to controls. I resent dual-analogue controls for FPS and have always played them with a mouse and keyboard, but was also frustrated with how Borderlands 2 was so visibly designed for controllers first that the KB+M experience was dreadful for both vehicles and UI/inventory navigation. As a Nintendo player I also can't abide the backwards ABXY layout and confirm/cancel placement on the Xbox pad. Luckily, Steam allows me to link up my Switch Pro Controller with out-of-the-box support for the Nintendo layout, and with a vast range of configurability for gyro controls that first came in with support for the Steam Controller.

So I put about 50 hours into TPS with motion controls and Nintendo buttons—a happy compromise between tolerable aiming and Borderlands' controller-centric menus/driving—and it was by far the best FPS experience I have ever had with a controller. I plan to replay Borderlands 2 this way later in the year, and it has also done more than anything else to pique my interest in Borderlands 3, which I will want to play this way, or not at all.

I never considered picking up BL3 on the Epic Games Store anyway, as I'm patient and would be happy to wait several years for DLC-complete editions and steep discounts to kick in (all on Steam). I expect to play it in 2024, and we'll see how the platform war looks then. But looking over my entire history with TPS this month—from the initial purchasing decision to the configuration to the playing experience (and not even getting into benefits I take for granted like cloud saves that work over PC/Mac cross-buy)—it has become forcefully clear to me that Steam is an even more critical piece of the puzzle than I took it for. Steam is a part of this story from start to finish.

*

Now, something like playing with motion controls and the Nintendo layout is the kind of highly specific use case that individual developers will practically never address themselves; you need a services-level solution. And maybe it's the kind of thing that EGS will implement eventually, if we credulously buy into Pitchford's bet that Epic's investment in services will outpace Valve's. But the key to why PC players are so attached to Steam is that while they might not be dependent on this feature set, many of them rely on some feature set at this level of obscurity. And much of what I've talked about here, from user-configurable gyro support to review-bombing protection, comes from recent and active support of Steam for benefits that many people won't ever think about—things we never knew we wanted but now can't live without.

No, none of this was there when I first installed Steam on the promise of a free Portal giveaway and a looming Civilization V exclusive back in 2010. But EGS isn't competing with the Steam of 2010, the platform of free Portal and flash sales. It's competing with the modern PC ecosystem itself.

This is not a crumbling platform that anyone is desperate to leave on the consumer side, not even with the hook of freebies and exclusives, and for all the lip service we're getting about how the features might be there someday once the players are there, it should be incredibly clear to anyone looking at this with their head on straight that Epic isn't even particularly interested in established PC players as their market. They're pulling in the Fortnite crowd and perhaps younger players with no money to spend and no accumulated backlogs or friends lists to worry about. I find it very telling that I've seen Epic's free giveaways promoted and circulated by people on my social networks that have never touched a video game in their lives and have no idea a storefront conflict is going on, just in case their friends were interested. All the implicit messaging suggests to me is that existing PC players on Steam are not the audience.

Great post.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,558
The Randy Pitchford EGS saga

1) Talk vaguely about supporting the epic game store

2) Borderlands 3 is announced. For the first time in years, people give a fuck about Gearbox again

3) Announce Epic Store exclusivity, trailer is downvoted on youtube, people bombard Gearbox for comment

4) Randy says "this is a decision with 2k, take it up with them"

5) Borderlands 2 is reviewbombed on Steam

6) Randy says "he is considering not publishing anything on steam anymore"

7) Puts out this thread fully defending the EGS

Honestly, I'd respect him more if he just said "they paid us", but the dude just has to keep lying. He literally can not stop
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
And then we go back to the unsolved problem, what games are not allowed?

Games involving rape, pedophilia, and real-world targeted hate for a start? It's really not that hard of a question to answer.

Valve is already (mostly) against hosting this content, but they need to be better about blocking it before it even shows up on the storefront.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
Games involving rape, pedophilia, and real-world targeted hate for a start? It's really not that hard of a question to answer.

Valve is already (mostly) against hosting this content, but they need to be better about blocking it before it even shows up on the storefront.

But thats not what the main argument with curation is about with the EGS store? Good but small indie games are being denied the Epic store and Epic has stated no solution to this.
 

Astra Planeta

Member
Jan 26, 2018
668
Ok? It was their risk to take? It was their own fucking game? They wanted to try something, and btw you could install it via disc's and use steam as just the launcher for it.

But it was seriously 2003-2004 they wanted to take a risk. They were not forcing anyone else but themselves to put their own game up on the store?

So again they took the risk and yes like anything, it was buggy. But also paved the way for digital distribution. They took the risk and reaped the reward?

What risk is epic taking? The developers are the ones taking the big risk that literally could end their studio if the game doesn't do well on the store.

If steam was down, you weren't playing HL2. I remember sitting there with my CD install unable to play, but doom 3 was just fine, that was a traditional exe on a CD. At the time is was a very consumer unfriendly move, it killed the used PC game market as well. It was purely a business decision, and it was right at the time for Valve, not for consumers. I just don't get why Valve gets a pass for anti consumer practices, and people jump down Epic's throat.

Epic has done a lot for PC gaming, not as much as valve, but still quite a bit with the unreal engine and the features they have developed and released. I dont particularly like third party exclusives being bought, but it is probably the only way to get installs and people using the launcher.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,945
Oh, I thought this was something new. This was just that storm of tweets people have already criticized to death. The one in which he claims that Steam's a monopoly, and that some number of years from now Steam will be dead, and EGS will be the victor.

If these had been recent tweets, I was gonna criticize him for not shutting up. Take Two got a bag of money for 6 months of exclusivity. Why this man feels the need to defend their decision is beyond me.
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
So where are all the small indie games that Epic has claimed they are using their store to help?

I'm not even sure where this is coming from, because it's not what I was talking about in the first place.

Someone said "Steam is becoming an issue in the PC space." Someone else replied "No they aren't." And that's where I jumped in. I wasn't ever talking about the EGS curation, I was talking specifically about Valve's current hands-off approach.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
If steam was down, you weren't playing HL2. I remember sitting there with my CD install unable to play, but doom 3 was just fine, that was a traditional exe on a CD. At the time is was a very consumer unfriendly move, it killed the used PC game market as well. It was purely a business decision, and it was right at the time for Valve, not for consumers. I just don't get why Valve gets a pass for anti consumer practices, and people jump down Epic's throat.
Because that was 15 years ago and they did it for one first party game, not a bunch of third parties.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
How self-important do you have to be to sit down, taking hours of your time to pen this disingenuous nonsense?

This is about money. Money for big developers like Randy Pitchford, a few hand-picked bigger indies, but most of all, the publishers. I, as a consumer, have not benefited. Tim Sweeney says it himself, (paraphrased)- "we're going here to compete with Valve on pricing or features".
 
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voOsh

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,665
If steam was down, you weren't playing HL2. I remember sitting there with my CD install unable to play, but doom 3 was just fine, that was a traditional exe on a CD. At the time is was a very consumer unfriendly move, it killed the used PC game market as well. It was purely a business decision, and it was right at the time for Valve, not for consumers. I just don't get why Valve gets a pass for anti consumer practices, and people jump down Epic's throat.

Epic has done a lot for PC gaming, not as much as valve, but still quite a bit with the unreal engine and the features they have developed and released.

Digital distribution was always going to happen as broadband replaced dial-up. Steam just beat everyone to market by at least a year and in some cases, like EGS, 16 years. Also, while no one will argue that Steam looks to make money, EGS is far more anti-consumer on the whole. Steam did not make exclusivity deals when other competitors came onto the scene. In fact, by offering free key generation, they have arguably fostered some of their competition. Yes in the end the game still ends up being played on Steam but those other stores still saw a cut of the money and consumers benefited by getting cheaper games. Furthermore, there are areas of the world you cannot even buy games from EGS which is perhaps the most anti-consumer practice when combined with store exclusivity.

The Unreal Engine is undeniably a huge boon for the industry and Epic has done well there. Unfortunately they have truly missed the mark with EGS so far.
 

Achtung

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,035
"You see.. Valve is a private company and thats bad kids, I mean... my company is also Private but its different my company is good.. the best.. . BL3 is epic!!! See it just works kids..."

What sucks is I dont 100% disagree with some of his points but its so hard to take him serious with his past and bull shit he spews... and to simply not say that many have a legit issue with the pile of money he was given and are upset with the feature set compared to Valve sorta ruins his reputation on the subject.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
I was waiting for someone to make this "they called us pirates" argument.

You seem to take that bit personally as a PC gamer yourself, but you wouldn't verify or read on how that comment/story originated. Please find some articles from back in the day and try to get some context on who said what. There were two people who made the note about piracy and one of them was Cliff Blezinski who people on this forum love to dismiss and not take seriously. But somehow his words are now the word of God in this matter and describes whole of Epic's stance "Epic called us pirates and then left".

As for Epic abandoning PC gaming, may I ask where exactly did they do that? Gears not being on PC was due to Microsoft's involvement. Every other game they made was/has launched on PC...except for the mobile title Infinity Blade.

Epic also helped the indie game development and on PC none the less a TON with Unreal Engine 3...back at a time when developers were struggling to even just start production due to technical issues. They also went above and beyond to provide extra featureset for UE3 that one could only benefit from if they had a PC. The engine UE3 i.e. was originally designed simultaneously with Gears of War 1 so much of the engine was centred around making 30FPS games for Xbox 360..this was long before the pirate comment by Cliff btw..this was back when UT2004 was hit shit and people loved Epic. They could've just left it at that but they made the engine suitable for a PC environment as well despite its original design.

These stories usually circulate because somewhere someone read something written by someone else who read it off an article with clickbaity paraphrased headline. And somehow they become the accepted truth even when it isn't.
In the last thread several people did link you to articles of the Tim Sweeney and Mike Capps interviews. You didn't bother to read them at that point.
It seems like you still don't bother to read them and instead call them clickbaity articles (without reading them)?

I am well aware of the UnrealEngine development from 1999 until today. While I agree that it is probably the most important gaming engine in existence and played a huge part in shaping our current gaming eco system: those interviews from the Epic president and CEO still exist AND the behaviour of Epic in the 2000s still happend. Having an awesome engine doesn't change what happened 10 years ago.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
You are kind of proving my point. In a few years no one will care about this either, it will just be the new normal.
Well that depends on how long Epic is planning on making these deals, doesn't it? Also, Half-Life 2's launch didn't involve a bunch of condescending PR bullshit that pissed off their customer base even more AFAIK. I know for me personally, I'm still going to remember this shit a few years from now.
 

Laconik

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
217
There is no longer winded justification of the EGS. They get more money in their pocket and that's the only justification needed. Gearbox needs a short time profit win even if it may hurt future profits.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
How are two companies making decisions to support their business instead of making consumer friendly decisions different? Valve did what it had to do in 2003, and Epic is doing what i has to do in 2019.

You are comparing Valve making their OWN game on Steam compard to Epic buying third party exclusives, something no one else has actually done on the same scale, as exactly the same.

And that somehow proves that Epic is doing the normal thing?

What kind of twisted logic is that? They are literally not the same thing, and you still pretending they are is massively dinsengenous, it would 100% make more sense to talk about Fortnite but no, you went straight to the third party money hatting.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
The TL DR contains a couple little jazz, but is otherwise perfectly accurate.

I would imagine some people are starting to get self-conscious about how wrote these arguments are starting to look.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
How are two companies making decisions to support their business instead of making consumer friendly decisions different? Valve did what it had to do in 2003, and Epic is doing what it has to do in 2019.
I'm literally going to quote myself:
This is a bit like arguing Sony is bad for making Jak & Daxter exclusive to the PlayStation 2, therefore Microsoft moneyhatting Rise of the Tomb Raider should be accepted. There is a very clear distinction between "games made and funded by the platform holder is exclusive to said platform" and "platform paying third party developers to not release on anyone else's platform".
I do think comparing Valve making Half Life 2 exclusive to Steam with what Epic is doing now is extremely disingenuous.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
In the real world, competition looks exactly like what Epic is doing: Corporations leveraging their war chest and foreign investment to loss-lead their foray into a new market, using tricks like paying for timed monopolies (because EGS exclusives constitute an actual, de facto PC monopoly - unlike Steam) to strong-arm themselves into a competitive position.

I'm not sure that's true. Even in the games industry, the level of moneyhatting that Epic does is unseen. No other storefront/platform owners have been moneyhatting dozens of the most popular 3rd party games within a few months.
 
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fracas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,636
I can't really stand Randy Pitchford but I agree with him here. Buying exclusives is literally the only way EGS can stand out in the short term. No one would care if they had feature parity with steam (which I'm sure they will in the near future) because steam is the status quo and without games you can't get anywhere else, there's no reason to try something different.

I love Steam and it's by far the main launcher I use, but I absolutely want more companies to have skin in the game and compete for my dollar and this is the simplest and best way to get that ball rolling.