I think Wolfenstein was mentioned earlier in this thread. I mean that it has well done and tasteful sex scene, not that it approaches the issue in any other way. Though atleast New Colossus uses sex for humour too. But in the relationship between BJ and Anya it's handled more maturely.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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In terms of treating sex seriously, I don't think Drakengard 3 does it. It doesnt pretend it though.
Finally decided to take a peek in this thread. The most concise way I've come up with to describe the issue of female game characters is to bring up the concept of the "everyman" character.
A lot of games (and other media) try to make their protagonists the "everyman" whom the presumably male audience can relate to. How many examples of an "everywoman" player character can you think of in video games, or action movies for that matter? I'm talking about examples of a character with whom female players can relate.
A lot of games (and other media) try to make their protagonists the "everyman" whom the presumably male audience can relate to. How many examples of an "everywoman" player character can you think of in video games, or action movies for that matter? I'm talking about examples of a character with whom female players can relate.
So this is something. Takahashi has said just the clothes in Xenoblade 1 were designed first then the actual character design later. While Xenoblade 2 the characters as a whole were designed. I guess that explains the difference in character designs.
http://www.siliconera.com/2017/12/1...es-character-design-xenoblade-chronicles-1-2/
Apologies if posted already.
http://www.siliconera.com/2017/12/1...es-character-design-xenoblade-chronicles-1-2/
Apologies if posted already.
My biggest issue with XC2 so far is NOT the skimpy female outfits (although they're bad)...
It's the very obvious and pervy male gaze the camera has. Shots are always framed to show butts or boobs for no reason.
It's the very obvious and pervy male gaze the camera has. Shots are always framed to show butts or boobs for no reason.
Exhibit A: I've seen that cutscene where Rex first encounters Pyra and the camera slowly pans over her whole body a bunch of times, sometimes it's just the boobs part too
Wolfenstein treats it as a stress reliever for BJ and Anya. Which as a concept is quite relatable. And a lot more mature than the way most games handle it. Even when they poke fun at how frequent it is.
That is, unfortunately, a very anime thing to do, and this game is very obviously anime-inspired. They love that slow camera pan.
I hate that I like anime. *sob*
Good post. I Completely agree and people who've been defending the misogynist in Hitman and railing against FemFreq just shows their true colors or lack of insight into the gender dynamics.
Hitman Absolution is a clear cut case of misogyny and it wasn't just the latex stripper nuns with guns that gave it away.
That's a really good way to put it. I think Max Caulfield from Life is Strange could qualify for girls in their late teens.
Same :'(
What do you all think of the new Valkyria, Crimaria, from Valkyria Chronicles 4? Art from website below. At least she's got a nice warm hat to keep her important assets (look, ears are important on the battlefield!) nice and cosy, and the coat kinda works for the wintry setting. Once someone shows her how to do the buttons up and how to use sleeves she'll be away. I mean, it's a tribulation that toddlers manage to overcome with practice so a 1,000 year old Valkyria should be able to pick it up fairly quickly. It's a start. They grow up so fast :D
Not convinced by the evening gown, corset and stockings for the sake of this generic zetta-whatever thing.
Points for the sweet doggo and cosy battle hat though. Could have been worse.
If I saw this on artstation, deviant art or any other fan art/artist site I would think hmmm nice design, but that is without context. Starting to examine it a bit more critically the first thing I would ask is how she gets the sleeves of the dress into that great coat? She must have to iron(press?) those sleeves every time she takes the coat off.
Then there is the staff which possibly indicates she belongs to the church in some way. Taking a guess by the rest of the outfit it must be one that worships the patron saint of glamour models.
What it doesn't suggest is a badass valkier. Although the breasts are only big now instead of deadly weapons that could take your eyes out. Might count as progress.
I mean I agree, it's not a terrible scene or anything but it's not really a core conceit. Like, I guess, a game where sex is actually a point of discussion, as opposed to being played for laughs or just briefly existing.
Yeah I knew that wasn't what you exactly ment. But it was just the best example I could come up with. Not enough of that in games and I ofcourse mean handled maturely and seriously. Not something like Leisure Suit Larry where it's all about jokes. Those games do revolve around sex.
I'd say that Leisure Suit Larry games are games where sex revolves around Larry, the games themselves don't really revolve around sex. Sex, in the case of Leisure Suit Larry is a tool, one used by Larry for comedy. But it's not really about sex, or what the wider implications of sex in culture or as a point of discussion are. Like, I even think there are comedians who use sex to present that conversation or to introduce a new idea, but Larry doesn't really do that either. Sex is like window-dressing to that game (and really, to most games).
Most games are sadly not even as nuanced as, "I'm being sexy for a reason", nearly so much as, "I'm being sexy because the director has a camera and animators to make me sexy in spite of myself."
Which part?
I'll say the adjectives I used are my opinion, but I think the 'male gaze' camera is pretty apparent. That cutscene being repeated multiple times is an example. There are other serious showdown scenes (I'm thinking of Chapter 5 I think?) where the camera is framed right behind a female character's butt during a normal conversation.
The problem is that, in real life, sexual activity is normal, but in games, it has to happen for a specific reason. You can't simply insert it into a game without having an ulterior motive because that's not what people expect. It's similar to how it's rare to see sexual activity in films unless there was a reason for it.
The only exception to this rule would be visual novels, but that's not quite the same thing since tons of those are pornographic to begin with.
The way people have been talking about these games from their inception are predicated on ridiculous overtures and incoherent babbling. It has infected discussion with every single game in this franchise. I'm not sure what the impetus for it has been but its always been some irrational sentiment that has caused people to collectively lose their minds over these games.
People using stills and whatnot to rail against the game seems to be the hyperbolic tactics they used to complain about the last game for having doll faces. It's ridiculous.
The game's camera is framed just like it was in the last games. The difference here is who your characters are.. It comes off as being overly focused on how people or characters look. Promoting some very superficial sentiments and judgement. I'm tired of hearing all the conversations about these characters being reduced to the fact that she has a double d chest size.
I thought about this when I was watching Coco recently. The MC, Miguel, is a pretty typical (if well-done) bright-eyed, bushy-tailed kid with a dream. I don't think you get a lot of female characters like that, though, even in kid's movies. A lot of the time female characters who want things are fighting against gender expectations ("you have to get married", "girls can't do that", etc.), which, while unfortunately realistic, is a little tiring for me on a personal level and also makes them A Girl with problems instead of an every(wo)man.
Good post, and it's a better way to put what I've posted a few times here. Male characters are designed for men to play as and relate to, and female characters are designed for men to look at and try to sleep with. There aren't many characters at all for women to just relate with.
I need to get the screenshot off my Switch where a young girl asks the...buxom bunnywoman "Can I touch you?", whilst said bunnywoman leans forward...
Bonus points for when she crosses her arms and they clip through her breasts
I just laughed when I got to that part.
Camera doing a slow bottom to top pan of her body, then repeating itself with a slower pan but with a closeup and emphasis on her chest this time was ridiculous. Was the game trying to show me something else? Her core crystal maybe? I don't even remember if it was visible in that second pan
You haven't read Sharp Ends, I suppose? You really should. There's a character that's just fantastic, probably the funniest he's ever written.
There may be some interesting discussion to be had about why she works as well as she does, but... spoilers, and this is not the place.
I have! Are you referring to Shev and Javre? :D They are soooo amazing <3
Dude there's a shot early in the game that is a 1st person view of rex waking up and the first thing you see is a frame full of Pyra's boobs.
I'm starting to remember that old adage from the 1990's that I'm assuming a lot of older developers and artists are still holding onto.
"Sex sells."
So when the original art of some of the already scantily clad women in XS2 were given their respective "facelifts" , it was definitely to look sexier to the male audience. It's pretty willing to admit that it's not exactly chasing a female audience.
I think the revolution is to finally go against the grain and change "Sex sells" to something else. But that will change in thinking will only really come with newer developers and artists going into the industry.
"Sex sells."
So when the original art of some of the already scantily clad women in XS2 were given their respective "facelifts" , it was definitely to look sexier to the male audience. It's pretty willing to admit that it's not exactly chasing a female audience.
I think the revolution is to finally go against the grain and change "Sex sells" to something else. But that will change in thinking will only really come with newer developers and artists going into the industry.
You know that's for half a second. She's a well endowed character.
I actually finally finished Xenoblade Chronicles 2 yesterday and I am very conflicted over the game in its depiction of women, to the point where this factor is my primary factor in determining whether or not I consider this game GOTY for me personally. Oh, and on every other level, I absolutely loved that game. I loved the battle system, the story, the surprisingly three-dimensional characters, the voice acting, etc. If it weren't for the costumes and camera at times, it would easily be my favorite game of the year as it scratches that PS2 JRPG itch that more modern JRPGs don't. But that camera and costume...
If you have been reading my posts regarding Xenoblade Chronicles 2, you'll know that I have been despising the character designs and sometimes the camera. But replaying these scenes, it really seems like there are 2 different cutscene directors. One is focused on making the cutscenes as ecchi as possible, while the other actually tries to avoid male gaze but, due to the costumes, fails at this. Like, let's look at georaldc 's example. I rewatched the scene again and the shot clearly stays on the crystal the second time around, even blurring the chest to put emphasis on the crystal. But, due to how objectified that costumes are, it just naturally looks pervy simply because of how the character is designed. And this happens so many times in this game. It's clear that there is at lest one director who is trying as hard as he/she possibly can to avoid the standard ecchi designs. Fight scenes try and hit jiggle physics whenever possible. Action scenes actually focus on the action rather than panty shots. Many scenes outside of combat try and be as center to any woman talking and trying to avoid any obvious male gaze that emphasizes breasts...but because of the costumes, this becomes an exercise in futility.
Like, later on in the story, you have two women talking to each other. Now, one of these women have has this really large amount of cleavage because her dress is split down the middle. The dialogue itself is very serious, and the camera tries its best to avoid male gaze, but simply because how this one character is dressed, it becomes impossible. And not for a lack of trying. Whenever they do a half shot of this character (i.e. upper half of body). the camera is facing straight forward, leveling itself so the focus is on the eyes. There isn't a downwards angle to emphasize the breasts. There aren't shots that try to emphasize the ass. But, because of how the costumes are designed, it ends up feeling pervy simply because of the clothing. And this ends up being a major problem throughout the game. So many good cutscenes are ruined because the outfits are so sexualized that it detracts from the more serious tone.
But, that isn't to say the male gaze isn't there. As I've said earlier, there seems to be two different cutscene directors and the second one definitely seems to be trying to get as many male gaze shots as possible. This is most visible at the start of chapter 2, where the first image you see is you on Pyra's lap and the camera is laser-focused on her breasts to the point of making the rest of her body including her face less clear to emphasize the breasts. This is also visible throughout Chapter 4, one of my least favorite chapters in the game. The greatest example is during the beginning of that chapter, which unlike the sillyness that occurs down the line, is supposed to be serious. But the camera is now suddenly giving off panty shots and cleavage focus and throwing off what is supposed to be an incredibly sad scene and it just detracts greatly from the moment. But the funny thing is that this cutscene director doesn't really stay for long. He's prominent in Chapter Four and appears now and again in sidequests (like Dary said during the bunnywoman cutscene), but the director just vanishes during the later half of the chapters when the plot starts to get serious again.
And my biggest problem with the game's costumes comes with the writing of these characters. The female cast of characters are actually fully realized characters and aren't just stock tropes. Even Mythra, who starts as a tsundere (and kind of stays there) is given a lot more depth then a typical archtype. These characters have full backstories (usually tragic because anime melodrama) and their personalities allow them to ask and discuss very serious topics and you can take them seriously. The writing clearly doesn't want them to be stock characters, the camera, for the most part, wants to take the characters as serious as they possibly can. But the costumes just repeatedly get in the way.
This is really ironic for the game's final message. As the director of XBC2 has said, he wanted to create a game about a boy growing up. And, the lesson that is emphasized at the end, the main lesson in what it means to be grown-up is surprisingly a good lesson and one the detractors of this thread probably need to hear. And I can't give it away because there is something big that happens in the later chapters that makes talking about this game impossible without major spoilers. But I was pleasantly surprised that this was the lesson but lamented the fact that the costumes kind of detracted from it again.
Also, I find it ironic but most of the people posting in the OT thread are people on this thread who have stated multiple times that the clothing was a detriment, not a boon to the game while others screaming about personal artistic freedom and how the game was made for them didn't show up. Almost as if the ones complaining about the game but were willing to give it a shot are the ones who are actually interested in the game. I wonder how much better this game would have done (it did fine but not great as far as I can see) if it didn't have those costumes.
I count 6 seconds.
Whether she's well-endowed or not is kinda besides the point on whether it's male gazey or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1-DiBUx2Mw#t=2m25s
Yeah, it's definitely one of they biggest examples in the main story. Only Chapter Four has more egregious examples.
It's frankly not a big part of the game, the fact that so much of the discussion revolves around these minor aspects are kind of sad.
Makes me wish she was covered up so people could actually discuss the god damn game for five minutes without mentioning how big her breasts are. Pyra's a great character and she does a lot of the story so to see people so focused on how her physical appearance affects people kind of annoys me.
And more of then than not it just comes across as a way to dismiss people or the game rather than actual care for how it may or may not contribute to negative or overly sexual views of women in games.
The exact same thing happened with Xeno X and it didnt have any of the low hanging fruit that this game seems to have
Makes me wish she was covered up so people could actually discuss the god damn game for five minutes without mentioning how big her breasts are. Pyra's a great character and she does a lot of the story so to see people so focused on how her physical appearance affects people kind of annoys me.
And more of then than not it just comes across as a way to dismiss people or the game rather than actual care for how it may or may not contribute to negative or overly sexual views of women in games.
The exact same thing happened with Xeno X and it didnt have any of the low hanging fruit that this game seems to have
Remember the 80s and 90s when it seemed like every single B-tier action movie had to have some kind of scene set in a strip club? To some extent it feels like gaming has a much tamer overhang of that mentality.
This thread is explicitly about this, so a conversation in here on XC2 will be about male gaze, character models, sexualisation, etc.
In regards to the larger conversation on the game, I don't think there are all that many people looking for excuses to dismiss the game, I believe they just find the content gratuitous.
I think the blame for the poisoned conversation is on Nintendo for having loli characters in their game, not people who find it gross.
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One thing that really hit me like a hurricane after I finished playing Horizon: Zero Dawn is that Aloy was not sexualized in any way shape or form. And you know what? I actually think the game was stronger for it. As a hetero male, I guess the industry says I have to like women in chainmail bikinis or skin tight cloithes. There are already plenty of games out there like that. It's refreshing to see a strong female character that doesn't rely on her sexuality (I don't think even once in HZD) to reach her goal(s).
I laughed at the reveal of Nia's true appearance. Are you kidding me with this shounen anime nonsense?
Yep, it's almost as if the message behind the game suffers when pandering to such cheesecake. See also XBC2 as an example of why cheesecake actively detracts from the game.
And the whole point of the thread is to discuss why her breasts and costumes actively go against the game's story. There is an OT thread that is for the most part very positive. I am, in fact, very positive on the game as a whole. In fact, that's why I'm so detailed on the sexualization of the outfits here. You need to realize that the main reason why people are complaining about these things is because we are actively playing it. We talk about characters like 2B, Quiet, and now Pyra because we play these games and enjoy them but these elements actively are detrimental to said enjoyment.
And get out of here with dismissing people with their opinions. If you haven't noticed, a lot of people on this thread also comment on the OT thread because there are aspect of the game they enjoy.
Praxis and Theory. Also one of the two sidequest blades that don't need the RNG gacha to get.
Yep, completely rediculous and ruins a very, very good scene in terms of Nia's development. It's a goddamn shame. Funny thing though, after this chapter, the character you're speaking of actually wears her normal getup most of the time simply because of how rediculous that outfit is.
I dunno, I haven't played the game. I do plan on picking it up when I get a Switch.
Although, I was referring to this blade.
You have seen the image CannonFodder52 is showing above your post right? The little girl with boobs and a costume that cuts through to show her panties. It's a sexualized little girl. That's not even going into the creepiness that is Poppi QT Pi. There are problems in this game. Accept this. You can still greatly enjoy this game while also having problems with its clothing design.
Loli does not mean sexualised little girls. Its just the slang term for little girls. Yes, it's derived from Lolita, but theres nothing inherently sexual about the term loli
Hachikuji is widely considered a Loli and there's nothing sexual about her design
MoaMetal (Moa Kikuchi) was always called a loli, and she's not sexual or anything
I get that in this day and age a lot of anime lolis are sexualised and there is a problem with showing them in mainstream games, but let's not confuse loli with lolita
Hachikuji is widely considered a Loli and there's nothing sexual about her design
MoaMetal (Moa Kikuchi) was always called a loli, and she's not sexual or anything
I get that in this day and age a lot of anime lolis are sexualised and there is a problem with showing them in mainstream games, but let's not confuse loli with lolita
You mean tired old gender roles with a cliched treatment of commitment, as well as the occasional transphobic joke?
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