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The Benz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
774
Just rewatched it and I'm almost convinced Carl's death was originally meant for Morgan now. There's too many parallels between Eastman and Siddiq's introduction sequences. That line Carl tells Negan "kill me" even sounds like a throwback to 'Here's Not Here'. I hope I'm wrong, but this reeks of AMC meddling. The showrunner spent years building up Morgan for the ending of All Out War. It just doesn't make any sense that he's suddenly being thrown into Fear The Walking Dead, other than to save its dwindling ratings.
 

dyst

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,461
Im still a huge supporter of the show but yes I can admit it has many issues which either fall strictly on AMC or the showrunner.

The show is nearing an almost unsalvagable point where if enough people leave it can't get them back (might already be at that point).

It's almost like having a terrible person in office and you're like "yo, does anyone else not see this, why is this still a thing".
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I don't get why they don't change shit up completely. The show can't get a whole lot worse, for what it is.
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,381
Yeah the characters are basically background fodder now.

Can someone tell me a list of detailed character traits for Daryl, Rosita, Tara that can be used to distinguish them?

Even well-established characters in the past like Carol seem to go through a cycle every 2 seasons that completely reverses everything about their character. Right now it's Morgan.
what's an example of a detailed character trait? Daryl is hardheaded and impulsive but has a good heart and is usually well intentioned. He looks at the group as his surrogate family because other than Merle he really never had a good one, and Merle wasn't great either. His relationship with Carol is strong because he sees her as similar to him, kind of displaced in their original lives and have found strength in the post-apocalyptic world, but are really still the softies they always were. Daryl is family/pack oriented but his coping mechanism seems to be running off on his own so he doesn't get too attached to things he will lose. Daryl stays true to himself and doesn't learn a lot. He possibly got glenn killed by speaking up early on and possibly helped the saviours escape by busting that plan up.

Tara is someone who started out early as someone that was content living her life quietly with her partner in whatever way would keep them together the longest. That's why she latched onto someone like the governor. When that blew up in her face and she joined Rick's group it took her a while to find herself. The loss of Denise has pushed her in the opposite direction of where she started. Rather that lingering around those in control she now feels like she has to take control on her own if she wants to survive, which is justified considering everything that has happened to her/people she's lost one after another. I figure this is why she manages to maintain her sense of humour because it's her way of coping with what's going on.

Whereas Daryl's personality/actions stem from him being an impulsive person, Tara's comes from a place of anger and wanting to find her place in the foreground rather than background.

Rosita is the stereotypical pretty girl who has an edge about her because she constantly feels like she needs to prove herself to those around her and show that she isn't just a pretty face. She also seems somewhat entitled to respect when she hasn't done a ton to earn it, any time she has tried it has mostly blown up in her face because she's still young/naive/sheltered under Abrahams wing (not far off from Eugene). That's why I kind of appreciated her backing down from Daryl's stupid plan because it shows some level of growth considering the last time she tried to act on her own it blew up in her face.

I mean we clearly know a lot about these characters and why they behave the way they do, the problem to me is that the writing manipulates their various personality traits to be amplified whenever they need it. Need something to ruin rick's plan? Daryl is an impulsive guy so lets have him do it! Rather than the characters acting naturally given the situation at hand. Basically jumping in and out of various character traits however they see fit rather than letting it be natural. I think that's the flaw with the writing a lot of the time.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
You know, not everything can just be excused away as "franchise fatigue". The comic, which has been in production for years and years, has never hit a quality level this low. In fact, I would argue that the worst it's ever been is average. It's current state is incredible and I just read through some of my favorite issues of all time, as of late. Game of Thrones is at it's peak, issues and all, after 7 seasons and still reviews incredibly high and is praised among critics and fans alike.
What does Game of Thrones have to do with it? There are two dozen other shows that easily became dull retreads after 7 years, so I'm not sure what can be learned by bringing up a rare exception. Nobody is saying that TWD's downfall was inevitable. Fatigue exists precisely because nothing has changed or developed in any meaningful way, but the show didn't have to be that way. The comic moves at a brisk pace because it almost absolutely has to....the medium requires very economical storytelling because it's just difficult to string people along month-after-month with only 25-30 pages.

I don't think I'm excusing the show's problems.....it's the writers' fault for not generating interesting new characters and situations, and for not keeping the show going at a swift pace. I've always felt that characters have occasionally done stupid shit just for the sake of a plot twist or revelation or needless drama, so we may differ there.

It's interesting to me that Gimple started his run with some of the show's most languid character-based storytelling ever, and then slowly switched gears into the current phase where the story/plot is really the only thing driving the show forward (albeit we're driving at about the speed of an undercharged Rascal scooter).
 
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Zaph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,112
Just rewatched it and I'm almost convinced Carl's death was originally meant for Morgan now. There's too many parallels between Eastman and Siddiq's introduction sequences. That line Carl tells Negan "kill me" even sounds like a throwback to 'Here's Not Here'. I hope I'm wrong, but this reeks of AMC meddling. The showrunner spent years building up Morgan for the ending of All Out War. It just doesn't make any sense that he's suddenly being thrown into Fear The Walking Dead, other than to save its dwindling ratings.
You're pretty much right. In the comic Morgan builds a prison because it's the civilised thing to do but Rick thinks it's naive. They have many conversations about this and the value of life. Morgan dies during All Out War and Rick honours him by sparing Negan and putting him in the prison and forging a (fragile) alliance with the remaining Saviors.

The last few Rick/Carl conversations feel like a very rushed and hamfisted way of substituting Morgan's legacy with Carl's.
 

Deleted member 3542

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,889
The entire show seems to, the past few seasons at least, focus their entire plot and writing about killing off characters. That's not storytelling, that's being cheap, manipulative (especially last season with the faux-deaths) and sensationalist to get eyeballs and market it as some big event. I mean, Neegan as a character offers nothing but AMC sure knew how to market because he'll kill off some of your faves. What else does he do? Have a big group of assholes? Hell, Rick's got that.

I thought the show was at its best character-wise when Rick was losing it or that season or so with Carol developed into a strong person and fighter. That type of stuff was interesting. That had something to say. Now it's "Ooooh...who's going to get it this time!?" If that's all you've got in your hand to play then please just fold.
 

mujun

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,856
Holy shit the show has been infuriating for much of this season.

They build up Negan and the Saviours as antagonists fairly well.

Then they drag out gunfights which seems completely silly (how many bullets do they have? Why is everyone so bad at shooting?)

They have stupid stuff like the car chase with the Browning.

Now Negan has gotten free and apparently still outnumbers the good guys to the degree that he can roll over them in the span of a day or something.

What the fuck? The whole timeline/central plot is so badly expressed and hard to follow.
 

dustyherb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
266
CO
You're pretty much right. In the comic Morgan builds a prison because it's the civilised thing to do but Rick thinks it's naive. They have many conversations about this and the value of life. Morgan dies during All Out War and Rick honours him by sparing Negan and putting him in the prison and forging a (fragile) alliance with the remaining Saviors.

The last few Rick/Carl conversations feel like a very rushed and hamfisted way of substituting Morgan's legacy with Carl's.
Actually
Morgan didn't even make it to All Out War in the comic. He died during no way out and Deanna took his death on the show. And he didn't build the jail cell in the comic either. Comic Morgan was nothing like the show version.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
I feel like they needed Morgan to lay down the important themes about the value of life because quite frankly that material could not be trusted to Chandler Riggs.
 

cLOUDo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,188
Just rewatched it and I'm almost convinced Carl's death was originally meant for Morgan now. There's too many parallels between Eastman and Siddiq's introduction sequences. That line Carl tells Negan "kill me" even sounds like a throwback to 'Here's Not Here'. I hope I'm wrong, but this reeks of AMC meddling. The showrunner spent years building up Morgan for the ending of All Out War. It just doesn't make any sense that he's suddenly being thrown into Fear The Walking Dead, other than to save its dwindling ratings.
Agreed, everything that Carl says to Rick sound something that Morgan should says

Besides Carl was in a personal vendetta against Negan in the previous season and he just change his mind that quick?
Lol
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,250
Maybe I missed something in the Rick Negan fight, he fell out the window and ran away? Why did he quit when he had Negan one on one?
 

Casa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,561
Maybe I missed something in the Rick Negan fight, he fell out the window and ran away? Why did he quit when he had Negan one on one?
So fucking dumb. He was first standing over a stunned Negan with the bat and then once out of the window could've just looked back and shot him. One of the many inconceivably stupid things this episode.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
Agreed, everything that Carl says to Rick sound something that Morgan should says

Besides Carl was in a personal vendetta against Negan in the previous season and he just change his mind that quick?
Lol
Changed his mind between seasons. The first thing we saw of Carl this season was him suddenly being all about hope and helping people
 

Chrono

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,154
Maybe I missed something in the Rick Negan fight, he fell out the window and ran away? Why did he quit when he had Negan one on one?
The best part was when he had Negan right where he wanted him (defenseless, on his back) and decided to give him a love tap with THE BLUNT/HANDLE end of Lucille and not...you know...smash the barbwire-wrapped part over his skull.
 

Prologue

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
781
Yeah it is? The whole point of that episode was to show that Negan is what keeps that place going. Without him, it was chaos. Him dying would reinstate that chaos, so when he finally popped up again everyone knew things were going to be find for be most part.

Like honestly, wives issue aside, Negan isn't all that bad. He definitely needs to change the way he does certain stuff and create a better outside community, but everyone could have it a lot worse. Also, I kinda feel bad for the savior in charge of the Kingdom. Dude clearly has a heart.

Maggie wouldn't given up the guns. And Rick sure as hell wouldn't have run off knowing Negan was unarmed.

Everyone was running lol.
 

GavinUK86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,746
You're pretty much right. In the comic Morgan builds a prison because it's the civilised thing to do but Rick thinks it's naive. They have many conversations about this and the value of life. Morgan dies during All Out War and Rick honours him by sparing Negan and putting him in the prison and forging a (fragile) alliance with the remaining Saviors.

The last few Rick/Carl conversations feel like a very rushed and hamfisted way of substituting Morgan's legacy with Carl's.

Actually
Morgan didn't even make it to All Out War in the comic. He died during no way out and Deanna took his death on the show. And he didn't build the jail cell in the comic either. Comic Morgan was nothing like the show version.

I was just going to type that out. TV Morgan is NOTHING like comic book Morgan.

In my opinion, they haven't swapped Morgan for Carl. They've not swapped anyone for Carl. It's just the way it's panned out. Maybe being 18 now Chandler wanted an out. Maybe they just saw Carl dying as a way to bring Rick and Negan together. We'll see.

This season has been atrocious. This episode was the only decent one, I say decent not particularly good, of the whole first half of the season. Looking back... I blame Scott Gimple entirely. It's since he showed up the quality and gone down hill fast.

Edit. Scrap that, I just found this article about how
Chandler's dad, and Chandler by the sounds of it, was pissed that he's off the show. http://www.eonline.com/news/899446/...-showrunner-scott-m-gimple-for-firing-his-son
 

Molto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,022
I've enjoyed this and last season more than most, but damn Carl's death just feels like the wrong direction for the show. Literally 8 seasons of build up and character moments that are pushing the implication that he'll be a big player in the new world. And to suddenly change the plot so drastically from the comics?

And for a season 1 character the nonchalant way it happened felt kind of disrespectful. Tyrese's death had more emotional weight than this. What the hell.
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,381
I've enjoyed this and last season more than most, but damn Carl's death just feels like the wrong direction for the show. Literally 8 seasons of build up and character moments that are pushing the implication that he'll be a big player in the new world. And to suddenly change the plot so drastically from the comics?

And for a season 1 character the nonchalant way it happened felt kind of disrespectful. Tyrese's death had more emotional weight than this. What the hell.
I think the emotional impact of Carl's death is coming in the premier. It is interesting though....I really don't know how I feel about it. Part of me is kinda excited that they're doing such a large departure from the book and also Chandler Riggs wasn't great...but the other part of me is puzzled over what can be next. But Gimple has me interested. I've been a bit bored the last few episodes but now I'm actually anticipating what comes next.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
76,219
Providence, RI
Uh.

Wait a minute.

Carl legitimately is in the bearded Rick flash forward.

So what the hell is that? Just some random dream that Rick is having? How does that reveal even work now that we know Carl is dying? Clearly, it means that it's just a dream.
 

Molto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,022
I think the emotional impact of Carl's death is coming in the premier. It is interesting though....I really don't know how I feel about it. Part of me is kinda excited that they're doing such a large departure from the book and also Chandler Riggs wasn't great...but the other part of me is puzzled over what can be next. But Gimple has me interested. I've been a bit bored the last few episodes but now I'm actually anticipating what comes next.

I didn't mind his acting, I'll miss him on the show. It is kind of exciting that they can take the story in potentially new directions, but IDK his death seems a bit lackluster. But I've stuck around this long and the story has been dragging a bit recently, so it could be interesting where they take it.

Uh.

Wait a minute.

Carl legitimately is in the bearded Rick flash forward.

So what the hell is that? Just some random dream that Rick is having? How does that reveal even work now that we know Carl is dying? Clearly, it means that it's just a dream.

Yeah I guess the flash forward was never a flash forward at all. They basically threw that in there to give Carl the illusion of plot armor. So when he dies you're all like SAY WHAAAA
 

Super Amikami

Member
Oct 28, 2017
51
Haven't participated in walking dead thread since the other site strangely. Boring first half of season all around. The writing has been pretty horrid. Really hope they turn it around, but after last nights episode, I care quite a bit less. I stopped liking carl's character after season 5ish and Chandler Rigg's acting become increasingly bad? I don't know how or why, but Rigg's acting was better as a younger child actor. Regardless, his death felt so last minute. Compared to Glenn's death, it's embarrassing for a character of his stature and it felt incredibly weak and cheap. Based on what seems to be some steam coming from Dad Riggs, he was terminated with little warning and Gimple ends up looking very bad and heartless after Chandler made huge life decisions based on the idea that he would be on another 3 years. As much as I despised his acting, Chandler was cheated. Showbiz and all that sure, but it looks like they didn't inform him until very late. Really fill for him.

Uh.

Wait a minute.

Carl legitimately is in the bearded Rick flash forward.

So what the hell is that? Just some random dream that Rick is having? How does that reveal even work now that we know Carl is dying? Clearly, it means that it's just a dream.

I kinda saw his death coming. The premiere made it very clear someone was dying. The flash-forwards combined were always accompanied by scenes Rick crying. Rick crying scenes were actually flash forwards. Old man rick, I believe, was what he kept imagining his life would be like with his family years later. Much like he had a dream sequence of future Glenn and his Kid had Glenn not died, he was envisioning his life had Carl not died. They never show Carls face in the dream-sequence btw. Basically, they pulled the same shit they did in S7 premiere was was done quite well btw. But not so much for season 8 cuz it was tacked on as hell.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
What does Game of Thrones have to do with it? There are two dozen other shows that easily became dull retreads after 7 years, so I'm not sure what can be learned by bringing up a rare exception. Nobody is saying that TWD's downfall was inevitable. Fatigue exists precisely because nothing has changed or developed in any meaningful way, but the show didn't have to be that way. The comic moves at a brisk pace because it almost absolutely has to....the medium requires very economical storytelling because it's just difficult to string people along month-after-month with only 25-30 pages.

I don't think I'm excusing the show's problems.....it's the writers' fault for not generating interesting new characters and situations, and for not keeping the show going at a swift pace. I've always felt that characters have occasionally done stupid shit just for the sake of a plot twist or revelation or needless drama, so we may differ there.

It's interesting to me that Gimple started his run with some of the show's most languid character-based storytelling ever, and then slowly switched gears into the current phase where the story/plot is really the only thing driving the show forward (albeit we're driving at about the speed of an undercharged Rascal scooter).
And what about my example of TWD comic? Yeah, they're different mediums but the quality hasn't ever dipped as low as the show.. not even close.

And maybe it feels like fatigue, because the writers/show runner are incredibly incompetent at writing characters and using them to drive a plot.

This was never a significant problem before the last two seasons.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
76,219
Providence, RI
I still fully believe that killing Glenn and Abraham was the beginning of the end for the show. That moment just didn't work the way it did in the comics. The number of characters that I care about on this show keeps dwindling. And losing two personalities that were highly likable and gave the show humor and heart at the same time really hurt the show's future.

There were still other great characters in the comic at that time. That isn't the case now. And now we're losing another piece of the heart of the show in the form of Carl (despite some people here hating him, apparently). And soon we'll lose Morgan.

Call me crazy but I think Glenn still had story left. He had just murdered a person in his sleep. We had a chance to then watch how that impacted him, perhaps watch a darker side of the character come out. That would have been interesting. Instead, they're just getting rid of characters that viewers love.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
It didn't work because they insulted their audience with the fucking ridiculous cliff hanger just for a social media campaign

That was when I checked out, which is a shame because the show had a great bit of spark between Season 4B and most of Season 5
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,376
Kitchener, ON
Call me crazy but I think Glenn still had story left. He had just murdered a person in his sleep. We had a chance to then watch how that impacted him, perhaps watch a darker side of the character come out. That would have been interesting. Instead, they're just getting rid of characters that viewers love.
Except Daryl. Never Daryl.
 

Jarrod38

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,684
At this point in the TV series I don't really cares what happens next. I've invested so much in this show might as well enjoy the ride.
 

Chumley

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,651
This show is so badly written. The finale was a joke, just yet another repetitive cycle spin. Wrap this shit up already and start a new arc.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
And what about my example of TWD comic? Yeah, they're different mediums but the quality hasn't ever dipped as low as the show.. not even close.
The comic moves at a steady clip because it's under the creative control of 2-3 people at most. Trying to bottle ongoing plotlines is not only unnecessary, but antithetical to the business because if 3-6 issues pass and nothing much has happened then readership gets bored.

The show is in a comparably worse position; they have to frequently tread water because:

-They need ~13-14 hours of content every year (versus only twelve 25-30 page issues per year of the comic)
-They can't risk "catching up" to the comics, but still have to adapt the comics
-They have to deal with AMC's desire to string things along as much as possible and limit expenditures

Season 6A is the blueprint for Season 8A -- over the course 8 episodes, tell the story of an ongoing crisis that lasts for maybe 48 hours. That was a poor decision. Things with Negan needed to be brought to a head much more quickly. It's trying to draw this conflict out that leads to the stupidity -- Daryl's harebrained scheme, Rick's foolhardy attempt to win over the Garbage People.
 

Chumley

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,651
If the show followed the comics exactly, All Out War could have been wrapped up in 8 episodes and it would have been fucking awesome, but they have episode quotas to fill.
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,457
Pensacola, Fl
I've been very active lately at the spoiling dead fans and I think I've exhausted all my frustrations of the show over there these past few days lol. I was never a big of Carl but on a personal level, Chandler really got fucking screwed. All because Gimple didn't "understand" something in the comic. I don't see the show carrying on for much longer.
 

Wachenroder

Member
Oct 29, 2017
207
Honestly? Killing Carl is probably the WORST move they could have possibly made on the show. He's basically the whole point of the show/comics

I've been a ride or die fan but this right here smells like a critical and most likely fatal error on the show runners part.

Other then grooming Judith to take Carls place, im not sure there is anywhere they can go from here.
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,457
Pensacola, Fl
Honestly? Killing Carl is probably the WORST move they could have possibly made on the show. He's basically the whole point of the show/comics

I've been a ride or die fan but this right here smells like a critical and most likely fatal error on the show runners part.

Other then grooming Judith to take Carls place, im not sure there is anywhere they can go from here.

We're going to get a show led by Daryl and Jadis where characters only double speak and grunt!
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,376
Kitchener, ON
I've been very active lately at the spoiling dead fans and I think I've exhausted all my frustrations of the show over there these past few days lol. I was never a big of Carl but on a personal level, Chandler really got fucking screwed. All because Gimple didn't "understand" something in the comic. I don't see the show carrying on for much longer.
This thread is downright kind to the show compared to the outright vitriol being spewed over there.
Man, it's so not pretty. The TWD fandom community is RAGING in anger calling for Gimple's head on a spike.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
its not about what he does. its about what he represnts
In the comics, maybe? In the show, they kind of touched on that a few times, like when Carl was going all ruthless killer during the prison era (ie will the next generation will lose their humanity) but the show never really made his character seem like some representation of those themes or tried to effectively lay the groundwork. Just look at how clunky this season was, when they tried to cram that into like six scenes. "Hope" and leaving food, helping Siddiq, the flashback, taking charge during the attack, and that's about this season
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,457
Pensacola, Fl
Having never read the comics... the show part of this comment is rather ludicrous. He's basically a minor character on the show.

He's a MAJOR part of the comics after AOW. In fact, a lot of shit with Carl in the past few seasons were a lead up to his comic future being represented in the show. But alas, this show is a shitty Walmart bargain bin of half measures.