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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Reading that quote is completely correct, I'm not sure what other position the author of that article should be taking. In fact given DSA and their history of being soft on the democrats this is a welcome progression for them and gives me confidence of their potential as a alternative left current in the future of US politics, and unlike say the ISO which has a problematic position on running in elections despite their correct assessment of the democrats, the DSA is at least running candidates that are winning positions of power so this comes off as more than just posturing.

Edit: Although one thing to note and I think we both we made this mistake I wouldn't necessarily see a medium article written by a DSA member as being reflective of the position of the DSA as a party itself.
If you're interested in engaging with the mechanisms of political power as they currently exist than a vote for Doug Jones is a better choice than abstention. If you're not interested in that sort of engagement, which is a valid position held by many more revolutionary (or just plain disillusioned) activists who direct their energy elsewhere don't get me wrong, then abstention becomes a valid choice but that's also not the sort of organization the DSA is seemingly trying to be?

EDIT: I have long suspected that I view voting in a much stricter utilitarian sense than a lot of people do, which both frustrates me and probably explains a lot of disagreements I've gotten into. I still wouldn't argue for abstention for any sort of (negligible) "symbolic value", I might just respect someone who truly felt that working outside of the mechanisms of elections and institutional government was more productive

EDIT 2: Also I find it kinda...ironic, I guess, that I'm in the position of arguing for the prime importance of material consequences given how much I butt heads with more stringent Marxists about the fundamentalism of material relations. Voting is just such a black box act that its hard for me to care about the symbolism of it when any such symbolism is completely ancillary to the act itself. The only person who decides to let others know how you voted and why is you
 
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Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
So I'm of two minds about this piece. On the one hand, I actually agree with a good chunk of what it's saying, particularly about how a lot of visions of the future implicitly use as a reference point the level of prosperity enjoyed in the post-war boom, a period which we can't return to. I also agree with the point that the current state of capitalism is not driven by a cabal at its head, but has become a self-operating engine in its own right and that the degree to which we can steer it is overstated (although I think it can be steered somewhat more than the authors seem to think). These are all valid arguments for why a transition to true post-capitalism almost certainly will not take the form of reformism.

On the other hand...the math behind the US economy is, in some important ways, not that complicated. We know roughly how much the economy currently generates, and we know how much the government currently spends, and we know that there are areas of both massive waste and massive inefficiency. We don't actually need a post-war boom level economy to provide universal healthcare, the money for that already exists inside the healthcare subeconomy alone, it just needs to be distributed properly. We know that the amount of money spent on the military could be split up, and portions redirected to other needs such as education, and again this doesn't require us "finding" additional economic activity anywhere, it merely requires us to reallocate what we already have. These things may not be revolutionary, they may not be meaningfully "socialist" insomuch as they do not undermine labor alienation at its source (although I would argue there are deep secondary effects worth considering), but they are also items of very high material impact and its very hard for me to argue that they are therefore not worth pursuing.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
If you're interested in engaging with the mechanisms of political power as they currently exist than a vote for Doug Jones is a better choice than abstention. If you're not interested in that sort of engagement, which is a valid position held by many more revolutionary (or just plain disillusioned) activists who direct their energy elsewhere don't get me wrong, then abstention becomes a valid choice but that's also not the sort of organization the DSA is seemingly trying to be?

EDIT: I have long suspected that I view voting in a much stricter utilitarian sense than a lot of people do, which both frustrates me and probably explains a lot of disagreements I've gotten into. I still wouldn't argue for abstention for any sort of (negligible) "symbolic value", I might just respect someone who truly felt that working outside of the mechanisms of elections and institutional government was more productive

EDIT 2: Also I find it kinda...ironic, I guess, that I'm in the position of arguing for the prime importance of material consequences given how much I butt heads with more stringent Marxists about the fundamentalism of material relations. Voting is just such a black box act that its hard for me to care about the symbolism of it when any such symbolism is completely ancillary to the act itself. The only person who decides to let others know how you voted and why is you

I don't think there's any inherent contradiction between political engagement in more local elections where the DSA can more easily exert some degree of influence, and abstention from statewide elections where the levers of power much more heavily favor the Democratic establishment.

I wouldn't agree that abstention is the right call in this case, personally, but this is just one person and not representative of the organization as a whole (I doubt a single DSA chapter has ever pushed abstention as an official policy, as opposed to just not endorsing).
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
it just needs to be distributed properly. We know that the amount of money spent on the military could be split up, and portions redirected to other needs such as education, and again this doesn't require us "finding" additional economic activity anywhere, it merely requires us to reallocate what we already have. These things may not be revolutionary, they may not be meaningfully "socialist" insomuch as they do not undermine labor alienation at its source (although I would argue there are deep secondary effects worth considering), but they are also items of very high material impact and its very hard for me to argue that they are therefore not worth pursuing.

Worth pursuing, potentially. However, some key statements from that essay:

> "They [Keynesians and social democrats] think that the capitalists [and/or their political representatives] control capitalism — not the other way around — so that the system can become something it's not once different people with different priorities assume control of it."

and

> leftists mistakenly imagine that "neoliberalism" has merely been the desideratum of wicked politicians, who under the influence of their Wall Street and corporate donors, have maliciously manufactured current economic conditions. But the reverse is actually the case; neoliberalism is a set of policies and an ideology that the ruling class and their political proxies developed in response to the underlying and enduring economic malaise of capitalism. That is, underlying economic conditions have been the driving force of neoliberalism, not politics and ideology.

and

> As Trump, Sanders, and the left blogosphere see it, these dire consequences are all due to the choices of neoliberal politicos, especially Reagan, the Bushes, and Bill and Hillary Clinton.



The above, that Sanders and Trump have the same political origin: International Capital has betrayed the US working class and their populist rhetoric are both about capturing and redistributing Capital to their political base.

Simply capturing Capital and redistribution doesn't work, as "reformed" Capital can be reformed either direction: pro or anti worker. Even authoritarian Social Democracies like the USSR, with it's promise of single party worker's dictatorship, saw a more mild and slower but still reformist slant towards assuaging the need for Capitalist accumulation and growth.

> In the short term, don't we simply need to get a bigger slice and then (perhaps) talk about the whole pie later on?

> The problem with this story is that while grossly exaggerating the impact of policies and trade agreements, it excludes a key underlying and primary causative factor of the current instability and malaise. This key factor is necessary not only for diagnosing but also for addressing the conditions that we face today. Keynesian reformers and social democrats, including Bernie Sanders, are either utterly unaware of, attempt to blithely ignore, or otherwise contest this factor. But its existence and effects are undeniable and its implications are enormous. That is, excluded from the standard leftist narrative of neoliberalism is the following: the underlying, decrepit state of capitalism over the past forty-plus years, and the unlikely prospects for a return to robust economic growth in the foreseeable future.

> Few thinkers, even among Marxists, seem willing to tell the working class this fundamental fact, and it surely is not going to be acknowledged by major political office holders or campaigners, whose careers depend upon the belief that their particular nostrums or plans will remedy the crisis. Yet neither Trump with his protectionism nor Sanders with his social infrastructure can restore the economy (in the US or beyond) to postwar levels of growth, the kind of growth upon which their promises depend. Likewise, their policies and plans would not ameliorate the conditions of the vast majority. As long as the economic system is capitalism, profit will be the driving factor, and the predicament of capitalism has precisely to do with a loss of confidence in the profitability of investment.

The Capital that provided growth post WW2 is the same Capital that stagnated in the 70s and is the same Capital that collapsed in 2008. Neither Sanders nor Trump will be successful in their populism because Capital is not at the reigns of a single "Great Man" and all good Marxists should reject the Great Man Theory. While Capital is not all encompassing it is total, and the rules of Capital: Accumulation/Profit/Exploitation/etc in all of it's microcosms and how it is acted out by the individual Capitalist is ultimately Capital acting in Concert.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
This concisely sums up what I think of the @LeftistScumbag Medium post, or rather the pile-on over it:



The Democrats seem to think that they're entitled to people's votes. The use of "sabotage" makes that especially evident in this person's case.

Your vote is your stamp of approval. Voting for the Democrats is giving them a blessing to serve Wall Street's interests to the detriment of the country and wage horrible needless wars. It's like demanding change from a company, not getting that change and buying their product anyway.

You'll never find an individual or organization that matches your views 100% but some issues are just too important to ignore. The Democrats should just be less corporate if they want support because people care about these things.

Perhaps the Dems will go the way of the Whigs and die out because they don't care enough about certain issues but they could also be reformed.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Your vote is your stamp of approval. Voting for the Democrats is giving them a blessing to serve Wall Street's interests to the detriment of the country and wage horrible needless wars. It's like demanding change from a company, not getting that change and buying their product anyway.
.
I think I just view this completely the opposite. I think when you withhold your vote, the natural read for "why we got less votes" is "because the voting population preferred our opponent more". A lot of why Democrats have moved to the right, rightfully or wrongfully, has been watching republicans winning elections. When you do get someone like a Jones in, that's when I think you then have leverage, the ability to say "now do what we want, or next time you're going to lose".

This might actually be somewhere where I disagree with a lot of politically active people in general, regardless of how far left they are: generally I'm a fan of making demands of the people we can elect, rather than trying to elect only the people who have already aligned with our demands

EDIT: Also I think people got heated about that piece precisely because of how close the current Moore/Jones election is according to some polls. When a thousand votes actually might be the difference between keeping Moore out
 
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Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
This concisely sums up what I think of the @LeftistScumbag Medium post, or rather the pile-on over it:



The problem as well is the "left" have historically has being so marginal that they've had no influence over the outcome of electoral results.

This might actually be somewhere where I disagree with a lot of politically active people in general, regardless of how far left they are: generally I'm a fan of making demands of the people we can elect, rather than trying to elect only the people who have already aligned with our demands
That's literally all the "left" can do at this point in time though.

Except that shouldn't translate into barracking for the democrats and we should actually be working towards actually building our political power to a point where it's actually a option where we can elect people that align with the demands of the grassroots. But the problem is I don't think the left can afford to be soft on the democrats, the dominant discourse in progressive circles has been one of lesser evil-ism for the past 30-years and this has been the case for even countries that have the benefit of preferential voting and it has gone absolutely no-where, parties like the democrats keep co-opting people's struggles, de-radicalising movements to serve their own self-interest and they keep progressively going towards the right because of the lack of imagination from the movements and the general weakness of the left to build a alternative to the democrats.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
The problem as well is the "left" have historically has being so marginal that they've had no influence over the outcome of electoral results.


That's literally all the "left" can do at this point in time though.

Except that shouldn't translate into barracking for the democrats and we should actually be working towards actually building our political power to a point where it's actually a option where we can elect people that align with the demands of the grassroots. But the problem is I don't think the left can afford to be soft on the democrats, the dominant discourse in progressive circles has been one of lesser evil-ism for the past 30-years and this has been the case for even countries that have the benefit of preferential voting and it has gone absolutely no-where, parties like the democrats keep co-opting people's struggles, de-radicalising movements to serve their own self-interest and they keep progressively going towards the right because of the lack of imagination from the movements and the general weakness of the left to build a alternative to the democrats.
I've spoken at length about this elsewhere, and I'll see if I can dig up one of my old posts, but I think that some of the causality here is backwards, and specifically I think you're underselling the role voters have had in signalling who they will and won't support. There's a great piece out there that I'm trying to track down that examines how Democratic Presidential nominees changed. Specifically about how they were a party that put forth people who actively campaigned on pro-labor stances, until they became the party of civil rights as well, at which point the voting support from Democrats for pro-labor pro-civil rights candidates in the primary selection process absolutely cratered among the white working class. Maybe the reason Doug Jones is not campaigning on Medicare for All is because he thinks enough Alabama voters will actively reject that, enough to make this race even less competitive than it is now. I mean, maybe also he just doesn't believe in it, I don't know the guy, but I think it will be a strategic error if we think that a full throated DemSoc platform is going to energize "the people" everywhere.

Again I think broadly the DSAs work to get people into state legislatures, into city councils, and yes into congress if we see an opening we think we can win, all of that is actually the way to go about normalizing DemSoc ideas and getting them into the conversation in a way that they haven't been before. But that normalization process is important because of how many people will actively reject them otherwise. And in the meantime there are going to be races that we only stand a chance of winning if we run the Doug Jones' of the world

Or, to put it more succinctly, if we do manage to get Medicare for All or something like it to a floor vote, we have a chance of pressuring a Doug Jones into voting for it. We'll never get a Roy Moore to
 
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Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
I think that tweet is less nuanced and more flippant than I actually wanted to be, in hindsight, so I'll paraphrase what I said in PoliEra:

I'm definitely sympathetic to left abstentionism, and blaming it whenever Democrats lose is some left-punching bullshit. It wasn't why Clinton lost, and it wasn't why Gore lost. It never is.

However, I think pushing it as a strategic move to push the party left simultaneously overestimates how powerful and organized the American left presently is, and underestimates just how actively hostile much of the party establishment presently is to the idea of treating leftists as a constituency to be courted - pretty much everyone who blames left abstentionism for Democrats losing will also tell you that leftists are an irrelevant minority whose views on the direction of the party should be ignored, even though the two notions ought to be mutually exclusive (if you really need leftist votes to win, you should logically be trying to do a better job of courting them, not worse). It's just not likely to have the intended effect.
 
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Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
I liked this article a lot, thanks for posting it.
Personally I think the author is kind of a hack (his critique of idpol is pretty shit and screams brosocialist). But regardless I think the article is correct on a fundamental point which is the sense of realism that we can't go back to social democracy but we run into a issue here in terms of what do we do from here? Especially when the likes of Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn are galvanizing and politicizing far larger amounts of people than what the current existing left is doing.
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
The value of the Sanders-Corbyn types is that, in the short term, they can help blunt the most deleterious effects of capitalism while in the long term they're getting more people interested in understanding socialism in the first place. The danger, particularly with Sanders, is in people thinking socialism just means "big government".
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
I mean, "Can Social Democracy" be enough is kind of the question of the era, right? Its one that I don't have a great answer to.

On the one hand, social democracy will always be fundamentally limited. Its very hard to see how it manages to disentangle the economies of countries like the US from global exploitation, and while its capable of altering the relationship of labor to capital and tenant to rent, it seems unlikely to rewrite them whole cloth, the way that pretty much every vision of communism requires. It is a strategy of "improvements", not one of "transformations"

On the other hand, well, transformative action is just harder to plan for and execute on. Going back to a lot of the earlier conversations in this very thread, social democracy works because when you're plan is to use existing power structures to advance your ideas there are discrete steps and measurable points of progress that you can accomplish over time. And given that, as I touched on earlier, the material consequences of progress in a framework of social democracy are not insignificant, its easy to see why so many people devote their energy towards electing someone who will expand education access rather than towards an upheaval of all social relations.

So the question remains...what is enough? What do we need? What is ethical? I think the advances of social democracy may very well be sufficient to meet our needs. I think the problems it can't tackle will leave us with an ethically compromised society. Where we place our priorities is a question we all need to be able to answer, to ourselves
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
The value of the Sanders-Corbyn types is that, in the short term, they can help blunt the most deleterious effects of capitalism while in the long term they're getting more people interested in understanding socialism in the first place. The danger, particularly with Sanders, is in people thinking socialism just means "big government".
The important point I think is the process by which how we win reforms. One aspect of Corbyns project is it's not simply saying 'elect me and i'll nationalise the railways" he's saying "Elect me and I'll help you fight for it". A lot of classic social democrats put forward the very bureaucratic line of managing capitalists worst excesses with no consideration of building working class power at the bottom to actually implement things like increased wages and the welfare state.

In response to the post above - social democracy will never ever be good enough in the long term because as many socialists and radicals have written before. WE CAN'T KEEP NICE THINGS UNDER CAPITALISM.

Every gain of social democracy will always be wrestled away from us, and the only way it could be maintained is in the context of very militant and mass working class organisation, but if we ever reached that point, we might as well just declare socialism already and get rid of the capitalists who have no interest in ensuring we keep those reforms.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
In response to the post above - social democracy will never ever be good enough in the long term because as many socialists and radicals have written before. WE CAN'T KEEP NICE THINGS UNDER CAPITALISM.

Every gain of social democracy will always be wrestled away from us, and the only way it could be maintained is in the context of very militant and mass working class organisation, but if we ever reached that point, we might as well just declare socialism already and get rid of the capitalists who have no interest in ensuring we keep those reforms.
Does pursuing social democracy at all then run the risk of satiating people's desire for change? If it is able to gain enough, provide enough, that people feel prosperous and safe for a decade or two, does it blunt the energy for more transformative change?
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
Most socialists believe that socialism means big government. Many may not say it but it is very obvious.

I think I just view this completely the opposite. I think when you withhold your vote, the natural read for "why we got less votes" is "because the voting population preferred our opponent more". A lot of why Democrats have moved to the right, rightfully or wrongfully, has been watching republicans winning elections. When you do get someone like a Jones in, that's when I think you then have leverage, the ability to say "now do what we want, or next time you're going to lose".

Move to the right? They're still corporate to the core but they've been becoming more progressive on social issues. These issues don't compromise the precious donors and are issues that can mobilize people. This was discussed near the beginning of the thread. These issues act as an opiate of sorts.

I don't get your strategy. It's just going to lead to an unending cycle of you putting off the the leveraging. Your leverage is your ability to withhold your vote until an appropriate candidate is put forward. Once they're elected, they can just ignore you until next time and make the same old promises.
 

House_Of_Lightning

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Oct 29, 2017
5,048
Personally I think the author is kind of a hack (his critique of idpol is pretty shit and screams brosocialist). But regardless I think the article is correct on a fundamental point which is the sense of realism that we can't go back to social democracy but we run into a issue here in terms of what do we do from here? Especially when the likes of Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn are galvanizing and politicizing far larger amounts of people than what the current existing left is doing.

What part of that article is even remotely about Identity Politics?

I mean, "Can Social Democracy" be enough is kind of the question of the era,

That's been the question for the past 110 years, actually. The split in the International was in part over that question. Marx called himself a Communist instead of a Socialist due to that question because Socialist = Democrat.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Most socialists believe that socialism means big government. Many may not say it but it is very obvious.
Move to the right? They're still corporate to the core but they've been becoming more progressive on social issues. These issues don't compromise the precious donors and are issues that can mobilize people. This was discussed near the beginning of the thread. These issues act as an opiate of sorts.
I was mostly referring to, say, compared to the first half of the 20th century
I don't get your strategy. It's just going to lead to an unending cycle of you putting off the the leveraging. Your leverage is your ability to withhold your vote until an appropriate candidate is put forward. Once they're elected, they can just ignore you until next time and make the same old promises.
I mean, my strategy, such as it is, is honestly tied up with my belief that a party of significantly more leftward candidates can't actually take enough seats to hold political power and implement anything. I'd like to be proven wrong about that, but even the data from the special elections this last year has been as negative as it has been positive. At the end of the day you do need some people who can get elected and then strongarmed into making the congressional vote, and that number is quite a bit higher than I think we'd all like

That's maybe ultimately what the Jones thing comes back to, for me: no-one better is actually on the ballot, and if we find ourselves needing the vote from that seat, Jones will be significantly easier to get on board with what we need than Moore or any other conservative ever will be

That, and "letting things get worse so that the people can see how they need to be better" mostly just seems to result in things getting worse
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
That, and "letting things get worse so that the people can see how they need to be better" mostly just seems to result in things getting worse

I agree. It'd be better to strive for reforms in the present. I think this mostly because we live in the present and because I reject the whiggish aspects of marxist thinking.

People that believe that we're on a path to that ends with conditions becoming intolerable are a bit optimistic. People may lean more left under such circumstances but Americans are very knowledgable about the failures of socialist states. In fact, this knowledge directs so much of American politics. For better or worse, we're going to see more right wing populism from now on.
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
What part of that article is even remotely about Identity Politics?
The author of that piece is quite prominent for his outspoken views against identity politics on campus. Personally I don't think idpol is beyond critique but I've found his arguments against it are painfully liberal and gone to the point of reactionary where he posts stuff in support of Milo Yiannopoulos on his personal facebook page.[/QUOTE]
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
The author of that piece is quite prominent for his outspoken views against identity politics on campus. Personally I don't think idpol is beyond critique but I've found his arguments against it are painfully liberal and gone to the point of reactionary where he posts stuff in support of Milo Yiannopoulos on his personal facebook page.

I just looked up his Twitter and holy cow - a bunch of rantng about the Deep State and SJWs, links to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Trump retweet, etc.

Dude seems off the deep end when it comes to social views.
 
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ZephyrGuevara

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
46
Texas, USA
Social "Democracy" isn't enough. Social Democracy/Welfare Capitalism has primarily been used to hold onto capitalism and pacify the proletariat so they won't gain class consciousness and rise to revolution.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Social "Democracy" isn't enough. Social Democracy/Welfare Capitalism has primarily been used to hold onto capitalism and pacify the proletariat so they won't gain class consciousness and rise to revolution.
One of the main appeals of Social Democracy (and Demsoc, although I know there are distinctions), to me and to many others from what I gather, is that it presents a reasonably well defined path forward. Within the framework of social democracy it is possible to say "what is our goal for next month? What is our goal for the next year? What is our goal for 2020". Is transformative socialism capable of answering the same questions? Does it need to? I mean, it very probably doesn't need to, but if it doesn't then, as touched on earlier in this thread, what does it actually want people to do?
 
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Oct 25, 2017
523
This might make me a turd but I mostly use social democracy and democratic socialism interchangeably. I realize the distinction is that now socdems don't want to move past capitalism but really any sort of parliamentary socialism will basically use the same means as social democrats did. I think it's valuable to see where the Attlee/Bernstein vision of parliamentary socialism failed and not to repeat those mistakes.

Unless your only opinion of Bernstein is that he killed Rosa Luxemburg, in which case there is probably not a lot of value to mine there.
 

House_Of_Lightning

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One of the main appeals of Social Democracy (and Dwmsoc, although I know there are distinctions), to me and to many others from what I gather, is that it presents a reasonably well defined path forward. Within the framework of social democracy it is possible to say "what is our goal for next month? What is our goal for the next year? What is our goal for 2020". Is transformative socialism capable of answering the same questions? Does it need to? I mean, it very probably doesn't need to, but if it doesn't then, as touched on earlier in this thread, what does it actually want people to do?


Da. The five year plan must be implemented tovarisch.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
This might make me a turd but I mostly use social democracy and democratic socialism interchangeably. I realize the distinction is that now socdems don't want to move past capitalism but really any sort of parliamentary socialism will basically use the same means as social democrats did. I think it's valuable to see where the Attlee/Bernstein vision of parliamentary socialism failed and not to repeat those mistakes.

Unless your only opinion of Bernstein is that he killed Rosa Luxemburg, in which case there is probably not a lot of value to mine there.
Nah I often interchange them as well, mostly because orgs like the DSA don't seem that distinct from the goals of social democracy, at least in practice thus far
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

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Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I have been violently ill with some virus the past few days and I sure wish I had UHC right now.

This better go away before Star Wars comes out!
 

Deleted member 721

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24173505_1968313693489585_610240049347265330_o.jpg
 

ZephyrGuevara

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Dec 5, 2017
46
Texas, USA
One of the main appeals of Social Democracy (and Demsoc, although I know there are distinctions), to me and to many others from what I gather, is that it presents a reasonably well defined path forward. Within the framework of social democracy it is possible to say "what is our goal for next month? What is our goal for the next year? What is our goal for 2020". Is transformative socialism capable of answering the same questions? Does it need to? I mean, it very probably doesn't need to, but if it doesn't then, as touched on earlier in this thread, what does it actually want people to do?
If by reasonably well defined you mean staying on the road of capitalism and nothing changes in the grand scheme of things.



For socialists to organize, agitate, build class consciousness, protest, stand in solidarity with socialist countries and movements and parties, dialectically analyzing the past success and failures of revolutions and movements and continually applying theory.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
If by reasonably well defined you mean staying on the road of capitalism and nothing changes in the grand scheme of things.



For socialists to organize, agitate, build class consciousness, protest, stand in solidarity with socialist countries and movements and parties, dialectically analyzing the past success and failures of revolutions and movements and continually applying theory.
I'm sorry but that sounds kind of vague to me. How, in your current life, personal or political, do you currently apply theory to the ending of capitalism in a material way? That's a genuine question. I feel like I'm missing an understanding of what the "application" part looks like in a modern context, particularly in nations like the US or most of Europe

I have my quibbles with the DSA (okay sometimes more than quibbles) but they're figuring out how to turn the tools of power to their objectives. How do you envision a similar seizure of the tools of power, for either dismantling or utility?
 
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Deleted member 721

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I mean I'm sorry but that all sounds incredibly vague to me. How, in your current life, personal or political, do you currently apply theory to the ending of capitalism in a material way? That's a genuine question. I feel like I'm missing an understanding of what the "application" part looks like in a modern context, particularly in nations like the US or most of Europe

I have my quibbles with the DSA (okay sometimes more than quibbles) but they're figuring out how to turn the tools of power to their objectives. How do you envision a similar seizure of the tools of power, for either dismantling or utility?
There's always the old Way, Help the local communist party, unions or social movements.

In college there's always the commie groups, that could need a hand.
 

House_Of_Lightning

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I'm sorry but that sounds kind of vague to me. How, in your current life, personal or political, do you currently apply theory to the ending of capitalism in a material way? That's a genuine question. I feel like I'm missing an understanding of what the "application" part looks like in a modern context, particularly in nations like the US or most of Europe

You sound like me. I'm so proud right now.
 

Deleted member 721

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Lots of people recently are writing about bitcoin. I readed two articles about It today, and another yesterday.

On general the consensus on the left is that this Will explode, and Will generate another economic crisis.

I have a bad feeling about this thing too.

Time will tell
 
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sphagnum

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I'm not sure how Bitcoin can generate an economic crisis when it's not tied into the real economy. Like...if crypto dies that won't have any effect on the the housing market or the government's ability to print money or manufacturing or whatever. It's an asset that is being inflated and will eventually pop, but it's fairly self contained.

If crypto became integral to people's savings, retirement plans, and other aspects of finance capital then yeah that could be bad in the future.
 

Mezentine

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Oct 25, 2017
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I feel like the ways that bitcoin is failing are demonstrative of some of my broader concerns about decentralization and vulnerability to systemic exploitative actors but there's nothing coherent yet...I need to think about it more

Also if any of the other cryptos manage to stabilize and function as a transactional currency I guess that won't be valid
 

Mr.Mike

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The consensus further right is also that bitcoin will explode (although I guess at some point you get to the libertarians and an-caps). Bitcoin is useless as a currency. The price is far too volatile, the transaction fees are far too high and transacting is far too slow and difficult. The primary reason people are buying into it is because the price is inflating.

But it's not really a risk to the economy. As mentioned it's not really connected to anything. Speculative bubbles might have an indirect effect if popping causes financial institutions to start failing, but in this case that doesn't seem likely. The liquidity of bitcoin is very low and hedge funds have been having a hard time buying bitcoins on a scale that matters to them.
 
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Deleted member 721

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I think its hard to Tell in any way. Since we dont know How many people, How much is invested, who is investing. It can Go either to crisis to nothing, i think.
 

House_Of_Lightning

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Its asset is its ability to help money launderers and the ChiComs funnel money out of mainland China. Once both of those markets are hit it will tank.