Yes I am. And its annoying that's all you guys care to talk about when it comes to us. There's so much more to trans people than just who we have sex with but it feels like every thread just reduces us to that.
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How do you feel about the ending of Ace Ventura in 2017?
- Thread starter Birdie
- Start date
Yes I am. And its annoying that's all you guys care to talk about when it comes to us. There's so much more to trans people than just who we have sex with but it feels like every thread just reduces us to that.
User banned (one week, length pending review): Transphobic rhetoric and disingenuous sourcing.
It's a form of sexual assault to deliberately mislead someone regarding your identity, regardless of whether they were consenting while the deception occured. A woman was convicted for such an offence in the UK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40446396
I was wondering when the rape by deception crowd would come out. That woman pretended to be not only a man, but an entirely made up person, to trick someone into having sex. Do you think a transwoman is pretending to be a woman?
That's kind of Michael's character. "That's what faggy means!" - S3E1
I always thought the gagging and vomiting of the cops implied they all fooled around with Einhorn?
It's a movie that isn't supposed to stand the test of time though.
Then again I always thought well, Einhorn/Finkle underwent surgery not because He/she felt like a women but as a revenge plan. Not really the same as someone doing it because they feel they are in the wrong body.
It's a movie that isn't supposed to stand the test of time though.
Then again I always thought well, Einhorn/Finkle underwent surgery not because He/she felt like a women but as a revenge plan. Not really the same as someone doing it because they feel they are in the wrong body.
I think she is.
But doesn't matter, only way to convince people to your side is logic or rethoric :)
The issue I saw from reading the discussion was yes he said some dumb things.
But when he tried to actually ask questions and try learn you then carried on battering him for his upbringing.
User banned (90 days) for transphobic comments.
Honestly, I don't view a transwoman the same as a biological woman, and would not enter into a relationship. I would feel upset if I was deceived.
interesting. I thought it was either the sight of the penis, or them imagining Ace fooling around with her.
Also, the last line - which is how i read it as well - doesn't really matter when judging whether or not Ace's and the cops' reaction is incredibly problematic.
Maybe even more so, portraying "changing your gender" as something a mentally deranged person would do.
i don't think anyone can or should 'guilt' you into wanting to be with transwomen.
What i think you shouldn't do is create the fallacy "because i only date women and i think i wouldn't date transwomen -> ergo: transwomen are no women".
No. I did answer his questions. When told that no one would ever have sex with us, and that's how the WORLD is. I gave him insight into how things really work behind the scenes. He said "No, that's not how it works. Maybe gay guys are into you though." He then dismissed what makes someone a woman and said he was going to go talk to some transwomen, discounting that I'm trans and told him that multiple times. He only wanted someone to agree with him, while saying incredibly insulting us constantly. Stop pretending this guy was innocent.
It is not rape by deception. Get out of here with this transphobic garbage.
I agree that it is foolish. Because the reaction to it can be disgust or violence. It shouldn't be that way though.
A trans woman is a woman. If you feel tricked she passes well enough for it to not be an issue. If she looks masculine or has a penis and a straight guy is not into that that's fair.
But if only the information that she is trans kills the attraction and there might even have been sex without the guy noticing no one was tricked. If there is a problem then it lies with the guy's views and not a woman's lack of honesty or whatever you feel like calling it.
On this note, you be you and I hope you find happiness in life, I'm not getting into where I can see this going.
"the embarrassment she goes through at the end just makes me uncomfortable."
"it makes the movie anxious to watch"
"it sort of bothered me"
Always read the OP.
I didn't read that way, he said stupid things yes, but he pointed it out that his circle of friends wouldn't. So I would step back and read his other comments (muslim friends etc).
And that somehow makes anything he said okay? He straight up said that's how the world is and refuses to believe me when I tell him that's not how things work.
This.
The moral purity testing isn't going to help. Grimybrit expressed himself poorly, but I don't think he came from a position of hate or intolerance - he's simply saying a lot of the straight cismale friends he has have issues with trans women, at least so far as being attracted to them. And like it or not, that IS probably the norm right now.
It'd be great if we could change that, and I guess things ARE moving in that direction, but the venom-filled shitfit that happens in threads like these against anyone who's on "the wrong side of history" doth butter no parsnips.
The worst thing is that now Grimybrit doesn't really know any more than he did before this argument. He's shown that he's quite ignorant of the subject (which is fine) and that he's wanting to learn more about it (which is great), but he's just been shouted down and 'proved' to be an enemy of the trans community (ridiculous)
No? Where did I say that it makes what he said ok? But it explains, and I am opened minded that people can change and will change when challenged (which he seemed to do), why he wrote it first. Was it stupid? Yes. Should he have been banned? Sure.
It's kind of annoying that this word's meaning has been changed over the last few years.
I've been around the Crossdressing community for over 20 years and as self fun-poking we would always refer to ourselves as "trannies" (Which used to be short for Transvestite). But now you can no longer say it due to it being changed over to be short for Transexual :(
That was our word, damn it! :P
Where did he show he could change? Was it this part?
Or this one?
I definitely thought it was because they all fooled around with Einhorn.
I thought that was obvious?
I suppose not.
If you read the whole comments yes, just the bolded no.
But still those comments are stupid/hurtfull and ignorant, a product of his social upbringing or whatever you want to blame it on. But the key to get these persons to change is to explain in a rethorical and logical manner. Sure, some can't be reached how hard you try, but some, which I believe this was one, can be.
There's nothing about the whole comments that changes anything in there. Saying he wants to go talk to some transwomen about this, while discounting the transwomen who disagree with him, AND talking about how gender identity doesn't make someone a woman is not being open to ideas at all. He immediately tried to get out of the conversation after saying that.
I really don't get why so many of you are coming out of the woodwork to defend a guy who says the things he has said. Its one of the most blatantly transphobic things I've seen on this forum.
Then you and I disagree, which is fine.
EDIT: Regarding your edit, no, I don't think we defend him, at least not I, but we try to explain his ignorant and transphobic behavior is wrong in a logical and rethorical manner.
possibly because there's a toxic moral purity situation brewing on this forum where anyone who isn't 100% clued up on the right way to think and talk about trans issues is shouted down and banned.
I fully support the rights of transwomen and transmen, I hope for wider acceptance, I'm upset by the hate that they get, but even I get turned off by the arguments previously on GAF and more recently on ERA because there's no room to learn or have a realistic discussion that in a lot of the world trans people aren't accepted as normal. There's no room for any other viewpoint or opinion. It just stifles conversation and turns the place into an echochamber.
well, how about that ... i just watched the scene on Youtube, and while it's certainly up for interpretation as to why all the SWAT guys are gagging and spitting, the black cop hastily "scraping his mouth clean" seems like a giveaway.
Meanwhile Dan Marino's delayed response is weird. He's the first one to spot the tucked away privates, with no 'disgusted reaction', but when everyone does so, he goes joins the "fun"...
well, personally, i didn't see any willingness to learn and some very dismissive statements of the now-banned user. The "oh i am legitimately curious, and i'd love to learn" didn't happen until that user received a warning.
i mean, dude straight up used language like "traps and shit like that" before.
Should we make room for viewpoints like "No one would ever fuck you, that's how the world is" or "Maybe gay guys would be into transwomen" or how about "A transwoman not being upfront about being trans is raping people by deception"? You do realize that we're people right? Have you even thought about in the slightest how harmful it is to see people constantly saying things on a forum that prides itself on being progressive? Imagine what we get to hear in other places that we go. Why do you think we need to hear comments like those here?
You're turning this into a very emotional argument, and as you're directly affected I can totally understand why, but you need to realize that such an emotional response isn't going to change anybody's opinion.
Grimybrit said some ignorant things, yeah, but he also expressed a willingness to learn more & have his mind changed. You don't do that by attacking him.
Also, let's be honest, your argument "cis guys wanna fuck transwomen" was just as anecdotal as his argument that his friends don't want to. All cismen don't want the same thing.
No. Not every viewpoint needs to be entertained. Should we allow KKK members to come in and talk about their views because its up to us to change them? What about TERFs? Nazis? Do you think people who insult the KKK/Nazis/TERFs are somehow the problem?
Maybe it's just my own open-mindedness. But when I encounter those kinds of people, I prefer to talk with them and debate. Maybe even try to change their views.
Banning to shut them up always seems really counter-productive to me. Not only does it not give you the opportinuty to debate, but it probably just makes them hate you even more.
First of all, I'm not a moderator. I'm not banning anyone. And I did talk to him. He doubled down on the things he was saying.
Secondly, if someone hates us more for calling out their views for being shitty, then what makes you think they were genuinely interested in learning in the first place? Its the same rhetoric that I hear that calling someone a racist has somehow created more racists and the alt-right.
There's a difference between 'entertaining' a viewpoint and being a rational decent human when dealing with people who have different views to yourself.
Out of interest, what would you do with all the many people who harbour racist, sexist, transphobic or other views that don't agree with your own?
They're human beings too. They can't just be written off by society and dumped in a ditch. You either work to change their minds or you accept their views. Screaming "bigot!" does neither of those things.
Also yeah, I absolutely think we should let KKK members come and talk about their views. I'd like to try and understand the grievances they have so I could educate them further.
"Do you think people who insult the KKK/Nazis/TERFs are somehow the problem?" - that's you trying to put words in my mouth to further legitimize your argument & I'd like to think that's beneath us all here.
I'm just going to go a bit further here with my own anecdotal evidence, as that seems to be the theme of the day:
Speaking for myself, I grew up with no knowledge of transgender as a thing that existed and when I learned about it, like most of the wold at the time, I didn't take it seriously and wouldn't have argued that a transwoman was actually a woman or should get to use the women's toilets etc. If somebody called me a bigoted prick or argued with me the way I've seen happening on these forums I'd have never changed my viewpoint. It's through being given time to think about it, seeing the experiences of transpeople and growing as a person that I've come to where I'm at on the issue. Honey, not vinegar.
You could say the same thing about race, actually - I didn't know ANY foreign people when I was growing up and the one black kid in my secondary school was a total doucheba. I heard a lot about immigrants taking jobs, being lazy, black people generally being criminals - all that shit... so you could say I had some latent racism fostered through lack of experience and total ignorance.
Again, if somebody called me a racist I'd have shrugged it off, but instead I've grown as a person - I've seen more people of different races, religions and backgrounds as I've grown up and developed a realisation that those things don't matter.
You didn't really talk to him so much as argue at him. He didn't have any room to express himself because as soon as he made his first post there was that gleeful first reaction that always happens - the almost gleeful "oh here we go, somebody has the wrong opinion about a Big Issue...get him!"
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This is the issue right here, that you just aren't getting. These aren't views that are different from me. These are views ABOUT me. People saying that I'm a rapist if I don't tell people I'm trans are not just disagreeing with me, they're blatantly insulting me and calling me things far more horrific than saying "That's transphobic" afterwards. People talking about unattractive we are, or how fake we are, aren't just having different views. They're literally talking about how little respect we deserve that they would say things like that to our faces.
If they can't handle me saying they're being transphobic after saying horrific things about ME and people I know, then why should I care about their feelings in any way? It must be so easy for you to sit back and go "None of this affects me, but I know that if someone had ever called me transphobic, I'd still be hating on those stupid trannies" Stop making this about you or other cis people needing to be babied when we're the ones being insulted constantly, even here on a "progressive" forum. You're adults. Take responsibility for your own views instead of blaming us for them.
Let me put this out there as well. Why do you think so few trans people post in these threads?
It is pretty well documented that some guys are specifically into trans women. Jim Norton is pretty open about having exactly that fetish. I think it's fair to say that it isn't the case for the majority of straight cis men, but everybody is different, and everyone has a right to their own sexual preference/orientation/habits as long as it's within the realm of consenting adults without any abuse of power.
The notion of informing someone about being trans before engaging in any kind of intimacy is a tricky one for me. I know I (straight white cis man) would not be particularly happy about not having that information when initiating any kind of intimacy with someone, it would make me feel uncomfortable and embarrassed, but the flip side of that is that revealing that kind of information about yourself to someone you don't know very well can result in extremely hostile reactions, violence and in some cases even death. I don't think me being embarrassed and uncomfortable is worse than death/violence. If you hold such extreme views that you can't handle the notion of feeling misled about these kind of things, perhaps the solution is to get to know someone more before initiating intimacy with them.
For people that have an extreme phobia of transfolk, if you want people to be more open about this kind of thing, the best solution would be to work towards destigmatising transgenderism, and building towards a world where everyone can be accepted for who they are, so people don't feel a need to conceal such details about their identity.
I don't think the main reason for the plot detail of Finkle presenting as a woman came from wanting to make a trans character, I think it was more about taking someone else's identity to hide from law enforcement and further other plans for criminality, but intentionally or otherwise it did allude to the notion that transfolk are deliberately misleading people about their gender identity in order to take advantage of them. The over the top reaction of disgust came from a transphobic place in my opinion.
But yeah, it was mostly confusing for me as a kid.
The notion of informing someone about being trans before engaging in any kind of intimacy is a tricky one for me. I know I (straight white cis man) would not be particularly happy about not having that information when initiating any kind of intimacy with someone, it would make me feel uncomfortable and embarrassed, but the flip side of that is that revealing that kind of information about yourself to someone you don't know very well can result in extremely hostile reactions, violence and in some cases even death. I don't think me being embarrassed and uncomfortable is worse than death/violence. If you hold such extreme views that you can't handle the notion of feeling misled about these kind of things, perhaps the solution is to get to know someone more before initiating intimacy with them.
For people that have an extreme phobia of transfolk, if you want people to be more open about this kind of thing, the best solution would be to work towards destigmatising transgenderism, and building towards a world where everyone can be accepted for who they are, so people don't feel a need to conceal such details about their identity.
I don't think the main reason for the plot detail of Finkle presenting as a woman came from wanting to make a trans character, I think it was more about taking someone else's identity to hide from law enforcement and further other plans for criminality, but intentionally or otherwise it did allude to the notion that transfolk are deliberately misleading people about their gender identity in order to take advantage of them. The over the top reaction of disgust came from a transphobic place in my opinion.
But yeah, it was mostly confusing for me as a kid.
I can understand "I am not attracted to people with penis" (which does not include every trans women) or "I only follow dates if the woman is fertile" (which excludes a shitload of cis women) but saying "I don't date transwomen" only means you are a transphobic person because you are putting a hugely diverse group of people on a box.
So yeah, I kinda would guilty anyone who say they would not date a transwoman if they are attracted to woman.
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It would be helpful if you'd answer my specific question rather than trying to turn me into an enemy to fight
First of all, this isn't me speaking in any official capacity.
Transphobia is something that isn't tolerated here, and that's been clearly stated since the beginning. Saying that trans people are *deliberately misleading* people with regards to their identity, when presenting their trans identity is something that sounds pretty clearly like transphobia to me, so I'm certainly not going to be talking to whoever handled the ban and saying I disagree with it. Because I agree with it personally.
If anyone feels this ban is inappropriate, then the best thing to do is to reach out to one of the admins.
If you expect trans people to be rational to transphobic people, and think that transphobia is merely another viewpoint then I can only shake my head.
Transphobia is something that isn't tolerated here, and that's been clearly stated since the beginning. Saying that trans people are *deliberately misleading* people with regards to their identity, when presenting their trans identity is something that sounds pretty clearly like transphobia to me, so I'm certainly not going to be talking to whoever handled the ban and saying I disagree with it. Because I agree with it personally.
If anyone feels this ban is inappropriate, then the best thing to do is to reach out to one of the admins.
If you expect trans people to be rational to transphobic people, and think that transphobia is merely another viewpoint then I can only shake my head.
That's pretty absurd to me to be honest. It's entirely possible to respect someone without wanting to date them.
Would you say that someone saying "I only date transwomen" is being similarly hateful?
People can't really control their sexual preferences, but they can control how they treat others.
It certainly doesn't seem that way when you dismiss everything I say about how these "conversations" literally affect us, as transpeople, because I didn't answer a question about what to do about racists/transphobes. You're more concerned with how they're treated, than how we are.
Totally agree, though in all but the most specific of circumstances it's needlessly hurtful to voice that sexual preference
The only thing United all trans woman is an invisible cromossome. Yes, I do think that if an invisible chromosome bothers you than yes, you are transphobic.
If you date your perfect woman that is perfect in everything body personality hate all the things you hate... And then you loose ALL your attraction because of a cromossome that took years to discover after they discovered the X one because of how ridiculously small it is, than yes, you are an asshole that hates trans woman because that repulsiveness is bigger than anything you loved in that person before it.
I'm not even sure how to argue this.
I've stated my thoughts and why I think you need to engage in a more constructive way, I've said I get why it's more emotional an argument for you, and I've said why I think it's unhelpful to sentence offer viewpoints to damnation.
My argument is a much needed practical one to balance out your hate meets hate o response if you ask me.
I'd still be interested to your solution if you'd care to offer it
I'd think it was weird for someone who finds platinum blondes attractive to freak out when finding out that the person wasn't a natural blonde. The whole point here is that we're talking about a woman that you are attracted to in the first place, who you then stop dating when you find out this one thing about them.
Let me throw out another example. Someone is dating a beautiful white woman. They get on great, etc etc, but then they find out that she has a black father and on that alone stop dating her.
Wouldn't that demonstrably be racist?
There is no solution to it, a lot of people don't want to learn especially when people treat it as a normal view, which was my point in saying all of that. You're blaming us for their bad views, and then saying its our responsibility to fix those bad views on top of that. And if we somehow dare to say that they're being transphobic, then we deserve to get insulted because we're creating horrible people by saying that in response to the HORRIBLE things they say about us.