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Oct 31, 2017
10,039
The issue here is rather more important than whe ther an impeachment can succeed, or what possible effect it might have on Trump's rabid support base. The point in my view is that a criminal president can openly break the law, instruct his creatures to ignore the law, appoint his spawn to positions of power in unashamed displays of nepotism that would make the Borgias blush, etc etc etc (add you own favourite Trump crime) and the opposition is essentialy legitimating this by refusing to even try to prosecute.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I'm sure Pelosi doing her job would help her against her detractors.

lol Sure.

Wow, the defeatism In saying that the public won't care about criminal activities like money laundering is fucking dumb tbh.

We've had Trump's criminal activities all over the news for years and they still are antsy about impeaching the bastard. The electorate is fucking dumb, that's why millions of people voted for Trump and will vote for him again.

It will rob them of being the law and order party.
By investigating his dealing you can show the public who he is and what he has done.
And if the public is okay with that then I doubt not starting impeachment enquiries will be what put them over the top.

In a rational nation they'd have lost that reputation as soon as Trump was in office, but no. They still have it, despite what Trump's done. Because it's not something they care about. The problem is that nobody knows the exact evidence required to get them excited for this, it might never do that.

Impeachment will make it even easier for the GOP to frame this as a witch hunt to the swing voters, as well.

Damn you centrists are just scare feckless of Trump.
Imagine not being able to do the right thing cause he has whipped you into submission.

All you wanna do is sit on your hands and let the next election decide.

It's not Trump were scared of entirely (and why aren't you?) it's the GOP and their support structure. It's baffling how you're unaware of how powerful the GOP in America.

Except the Dems aren't sitting on their hands and the voting booth is a safer tac to getting rid of him than impeachment. Imagine believing the Dems have what they need to stop Trump in congress.

I don't think you realise how broken the system is in the US.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,972
Just start impeachment proceedings but say nothing about it. Just let Fox News go nuts, who cares.
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,331
lol Sure.



We've had Trump's criminal activities all over the news for years and they still are antsy about impeaching the bastard. The electorate is fucking dumb, that's why millions of people voted for Trump and will vote for him again.



In a rational nation they'd have lost that reputation as soon as Trump was in office, but no. They still have it, despite what Trump's done. Because it's not something they care about. The problem is that nobody knows the exact evidence required to get them excited for this, it might never do that.

Impeachment will make it even easier for the GOP to frame this as a witch hunt to the swing voters, as well.



It's not Trump were scared of entirely (and why aren't you?) it's the GOP and their support structure. It's baffling how you're unaware of how powerful the GOP in America.

Except the Dems aren't sitting on their hands and the voting booth is a safer tac to getting rid of him than impeachment. Imagine believing the Dems have what they need to stop Trump in congress.

I don't think you realise how broken the system is in the US.

There is a difference in having alleged crimes and having evidence of said crimes.

Impeachment will help them frame it like a witch hunt? (Love you using gop talking points btw).
Wtf is trump doing now and for the last 2 years?

Again you are ignorant of my point.
Starting a impeachment enquiry doesn't need to lead to him being removed.
It will help unearth his past and present crimes.
I am honestly just don't think you are arguing in good faith since you constantly frame the question about him being deposed.


I fucking hate how some Democratic Party idiots just wanna toe the party line.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
There is a difference in having alleged crimes and having evidence of said crimes.

Perhaps, but this isn't the 70's. This is a huge mountain to climb to get unreliable and likely bad results which will likely leave Trump in the White House.

Impeachment will help them frame it like a witch hunt? (Love you using gop talking points btw).

That was the point, it's the angle they'll use to help him.

Wtf is trump doing now and for the last 2 years?

Are you serious?

Again you are ignorant of my point.
Starting a impeachment enquiry doesn't need to lead to him being removed.
It will help unearth his past and present crimes.
I am honestly just don't think you are arguing in good faith since you constantly frame the question about him being deposed.

If he's not getting removed what are we doing? How does this fit into plan to bring him down? The entire argument for impeachment is that he will get hurt politically by this, without that the line between both our stances is paper thin because the consequences will be identical.

Because without him being deposed we have absolutely nothing. Political theatre won't help us here.

I fucking hate how some Democratic Party idiots just wanna toe the party line.

Because not toeing the line has worked out really well for your sub-group.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I wonder how many respondents actually know what impeachment means.

I also wonder how many respondents that view Mueller as "fair" are angry at Trump's shit or relieved by the spin laid out by Barr, McConnell, etc.

Jeez, we're in trouble. The House Dems should absolutely do their fucking jobs, however.

The house dems are investigating every angle. There are 14 other investigations. Starting the impeachment process won't do anything to help those investigations and it certainly isn't gonna end with Trump out of the White House as of now. The only point in the impeachment process at this juncture would be decorum rather than effect.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
There is a difference in having alleged crimes and having evidence of said crimes.

Impeachment will help them frame it like a witch hunt? (Love you using gop talking points btw).
Wtf is trump doing now and for the last 2 years?

Again you are ignorant of my point.
Starting a impeachment enquiry doesn't need to lead to him being removed.
It will help unearth his past and present crimes.
I am honestly just don't think you are arguing in good faith since you constantly frame the question about him being deposed.


I fucking hate how some Democratic Party idiots just wanna toe the party line.
Evidence of his crimes are already being made public and others currently being investigated. The reason Pelosi is having these meetings is to highlight and outline the reality that what folks are calling for is already happening. Why cant you people understand that?

This is the same kind of senseless logic that leads to you guys thinking Mueller is going to present some hidden details that werent included in his report. He already said Trump did enough to be indicted if he wasnt President. The public is aware of these crimes and THEY STILL DO NOT CARE.

Tell me why this is the one issue where presenting the same facts and conclusions a second time gets people to flip.
 

Skiptastic

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,681
How did Clinton's impeachment proceedings hurt republicans though
From the Wikipedia on the 1998 US Elections:

The election was the most successful midterm for a president's party since at least the 1962 election during John F. Kennedy's administration. The impeachment of Clinton likely played a major role in the success of the Democratic Party. The election precipitated a change in Republican leadership, with Newt Gingrich resigning as Speaker of the House.[2]

A 2001 study by Emory University political scientist Alan Abramowitz attributes the Republican Party's poor performance in the 1998 elections to a public backlash against Republicans' handling of the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal and the impeachment proceedings against President Clinton.[3]

In the grand scheme of things, the Senate and Governors stayed essentially the same, while the House only went up 5 seats to Democrats. Nothing structurally changed, but it was considered a major blow to the Republicans because it was the only time the President's party gained seats in a second-term midterm.

This is what Nancy Pelosi is afraid of, I'm sure. She sees a mirror of a President in a good economy getting impeached for something the public may or may not consider an impeachable offense. That's the calculus she's dealing with at the moment. Does the American public believe that Donald Trump did something bad enough to get impeached?
 

Pomerlaw

Erarboreal
Banned
Feb 25, 2018
8,536
From Canada, I wonder why there is an impeachment process in your country if you can use it against someone like Trump.

Some people will only understand when they start to suffer themselves. They lack empathy. Like those farmers who are now talking about ditching Trump.
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,331
Perhaps, but this isn't the 70's. This is a huge mountain to climb to get unreliable and likely bad results which will likely leave Trump in the White House.



That was the point, it's the angle they'll use to help him.



Are you serious?



If he's not getting removed what are we doing? How does this fit into plan to bring him down? The entire argument for impeachment is that he will get hurt politically by this, without that the line between both our stances is paper thin because the consequences will be identical.

Because without him being deposed we have absolutely nothing. Political theatre won't help us here.



Because not toeing the line has worked out really well for your sub-group.



I
Evidence of his crimes are already being made public and others currently being investigated. The reason Pelosi is having these meetings is to highlight and outline the reality that what folks are calling for is already happening. Why cant you people understand that?

This is the same kind of senseless logic that leads to you guys thinking Mueller is going to present some hidden details that werent included in his report. He already said Trump did enough to be indicted if he wasnt President. The public is aware of these crimes and THEY STILL DO NOT CARE.

Tell me why this is the one issue where presenting the same facts and conclusions a second time gets people to flip.


Well his obstruction has. His whole reluctance to show his taxes is because he has been laundering money for the Russians.
That would be fucking huge cause it would prove that a foreign entity has power over him.
 
Oct 27, 2017
16,552
Listen dolts

If impeaching AssClown means he wins reelection, then this entire country deserves to burn from the top down entirely and unequivocally.

It was fucked from the beginning. And no amount of posturing was going to change that.

At least you'd be able to finally accept the majority of people are racist or idiots.

Just out it plain and simple.
ITT: "let him get away with crime because he might win again if we don't"

Do you even LISTEN to yourselves?
They're not affected by Trump.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
On the subject of impeachment, I'll just copy/paste what I just e-mailed my rep about this:
"Hello, my name is ShironRedshift, and I am a constituent. I am hereby calling for Rep. Levin to begin impeachment hearings for President Donald Trump as soon as possible. Through the Mueller report and various other news reports and factors, it is clear at this point that the President is incredibly likely to have committed any number of crimes, including multiple while holding the office of President of the United States. In such a situation, it is the constitutional duty of the House of Representatives to begin the process of impeachment as soon as possible. The Constitution is unambiguous at this point. It is Congress's job to begin these proceedings when these type of circumstances arrive and I believe it's now more than clear that we have arrived at .

For Congress to not act in this kind of situation, for the House to instead look for some kind of loophole out of their moral, legal, and Constitutional duties, would be as great of tragedy as when Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell did precisely that several years back when he himself used weasel words and loopholes to get out of his own Constitutional duty to have the Senate hold confirmation sittings for then-President Obama's nomination for the replacement of Justice Scalia to the Supreme Court, Judge Merrick Garland.

It was tragic and shameful the way the Majority Leader weaseled out of his constitutional duties to deny President Obama his Constitutional right to fill vacancies to the Supreme Court of the United States, and it would be no less tragic or shameful for the House of Representatives to avoid their own constitutional duty at this juncture to bring a President who has almost certainly committed any number of crimes to justice as best as their able, and do that much more damage to the integrity of the Constitution in the process.

What the Constitution outlines is clear, and the Constitution does not care one iota about such things as politics or chance of success or failure, as indeed such things are entirely beside the point of what's right and what's wrong, what's needed and what isn't, what's justice and what is not, as it should be.

Imagine what the world would like if we did otherwise in the justice system at large. Imagine a grand jury not considering the facts of the matter, the facts of the case, but instead judging whether a case would move forward to a full jury simply based on the chance of a successful guilty verdict, regardless of any other facts of the matter. Like, for instance, imagine a case of police violence, where the officer is almost certainly at fault of using unnecessary and excessive force which results in an innocent life being taken for no good reason at all, in easily avoidable circumstances for the officer, as unfortunately happens on too many different instances. Now imagine that because the individual in this hypothetical is a black youth in a town that is 98% white with excellent relationships with their local police force and because of these factors the full jury if assigned would likely be quite similar and thus, purely statistically speaking, the officer would be incredibly likely to be found not guilty based on those type of factors, the grand jury decides to not move forward purely on those type of factors and statistics rather than the actual facts of the case and whether a crime was committed or not.

Would that be justice? Should that be how our courts and legal system, already with more than their fair share of problems and issues that need addressing, function? Prioritizing probabilities of success over the pure, raw facts of the case? Most certainly not, and nothing valuable would be gained by doing so. No matter how low the chance of success, to not even try at all, to not even begin to fight and give up before the word "go" is ever uttered would be to pile on injustice on top of injustice and just make the situation that much worse. Instead, that's reason to redouble our efforts, to try even harder and not give up until the very end, not let injustices pile on top of one another and let issues of injustice compound by being too reluctant to even fight.

The House of Representatives, in matters of impeachment, should be no different. What should matter is not such things as chance of success, or politics, or anything of the sort. Instead, it should be a simple matter of does the House of Representatives have cause to believe that an elected official has violated their oath of office by violating an article of the law. If that cause is there, if the House has reason to believe such a thing, then impeachment should logically follow, as that's the correct course of action on every front, whether legal, constitutional, or moral. Such things as chance of success or political implications or anything of the sort matter not. All that matters is whether there's cause to believe a law has been broken by an elected official or not, and in the case of President Donald Trump, there's more than sufficient reason to believe such a thing has occurred.

To not act in this situation would do the same kind of damage to Constitution and traditional norms as when Majority Leader Mitch McConnell refused to even so much as hold confirmation hearings for President Obama's pick of Merrick Garland for the Supreme Court, and that damage to the Constitution and norms of our country is no more right or justifiable just because in this case the people ignoring it would be the Democratic Party, one I strongly identify with, versus the Republican party, one which I obviously do not. Right is right and wrong is wrong regardless of party and in this case, both what's right and wrong and what the Constitution requires are very clear.

Therefore, I call for Rep. Levin to call for the impeachment of President Donald Trump as soon as possible, as given all the facts of the matter, that appears to be the only possible course of action at this point that makes any sense.

Thank you.
"
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,397
From Canada, I wonder why there is an impeachment process in your country if you can use it against someone like Trump.

Some people will only understand when they start to suffer themselves. They lack empathy. Like those farmers who are now talking about ditching Trump.

The problem is not the tool at hand but rather the people tasked with using it.

Although to be fair, this whole process is akin to performing complex surgery on an elderly patient. There is risk and complications every step of the way.
 

Wolfgunblood

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,748
The Land
Evidence of his crimes are already being made public and others currently being investigated. The reason Pelosi is having these meetings is to highlight and outline the reality that what folks are calling for is already happening. Why cant you people understand that?

This is the same kind of senseless logic that leads to you guys thinking Mueller is going to present some hidden details that werent included in his report. He already said Trump did enough to be indicted if he wasnt President. The public is aware of these crimes and THEY STILL DO NOT CARE.

Tell me why this is the one issue where presenting the same facts and conclusions a second time gets people to flip.

This is important for everyone to understand. A large portion of the US widely perceive government as already corrupt and non functioning before Trump, who gives a shit if Trump is just as corrupt and dishonest (criminal in his case)? I suppose it's not correct to say categorically that they do not care about Trump's crimes and misconduct, but rather they don't care enough. It's par for the course, essentially. They just don't have the sense of civic pride in our democratic institutions to feel like anything is significantly wrong- they already don't respect our democratic institutions. Republicans have successfully slandered the federal government so that enough people don't respect it or value it.
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
2,996
From Canada, I wonder why there is an impeachment process in your country if you can use it against someone like Trump.

It's an old relic from the founding era, established before the advent of political parties and the rise of mass 24/7 media environments. The founders didn't want impeachment to be limited to only legally solid offenses, but also for unfitness in general, so instead of making it a legal process where presidential behavior was run by the standards set by set-in-stone laws, they made the impeachment and removal procedure a political one, meaning impeachable offenses would be whatever 66% of the states (not the population) felt were impeachable offenses.

That might have made sense when political parties didn't exist and members of congress were a group of individuals all merely looking to represent people of their own state who were not under pressure to stay loyal to the leader of their own party or when he media environment was limited to a handful of mainstream broadcasters and newspapers who adhered to a shared set of facts and standards with no large-scale propaganda mills muddying the waters of public discourse and setting alternative narratives.

The founders didn't want impeachment to be too easy because they wanted congress to check the executive branch, not dismantle it over trivialities, hence the 66% threshold for the senate. They assumed the electoral college, where a group of electors presumably smarter than the average Joe picked the next president and would act as a filter against demagogues, would be sufficient to protect the country from its own worst instincts.

Needless to say, there's a LOT the founders didn't see coming. At this point, impeachment is equivalent to a cop bringing in a corrupt diplomat for a few hours of questioning before receiving word from the higher-ups that there's this thing called diplomatic immunity and being forced to let the crook walk free with a big smug grin on his face. You can waste a bit of his time, but the outcome is set in stone and the only debate is what'll set the strongest narrative for the rest of the world: that he briefly got arrested or that he walked out with no charges sticking afterwards. At this point, it's a symbolic and mostly toothless (for one side at least) relic of the past and the only question now is whether to keep that fact sub-text or display it as text for the whole world to see.

There's also the fact that because of the electoral make-up, Republican can win with a fairly narrow and coherent base while Democrats can only maintain power by catering to a coalition that contains both representatives of liberal bulwarks that have been crying for impeachment for months and conservative-leaning swing districts that are either wary of what will be proclaimed overreach or low-information voters that are desinterested in political theatre and only wanted to make sure no further bills to kill heir healthcare made it through congress.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
Well his obstruction has. His whole reluctance to show his taxes is because he has been laundering money for the Russians.
That would be fucking huge cause it would prove that a foreign entity has power over him.
In spite of the Mueller report findings, polling continues to say half of the public thinks he colluded with Russia in some way. An area Mueller already looked into, reported on, or passed to other jurisdictions.

Work to overturn every stone is already happening and impeachment isnt going to bring any new benefits. The issue has been consistently baked in for two years.
 
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