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Oct 27, 2017
488
The Dunkey video hits on one of the things that bothered me about XC2 the more I learned of its premise, which is that I really really just find the "magical women who are also weapons/spirits of objects and are bonded to serve the male protagonist" trope to be sketch as hell
It's the most transparent male power fantasy self insertion possible and that's saying something when you consider that this is the gaming industry.
The game is super super anime beyond your tolerance, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend you play it (Especially not you, Eden. I know JRPGs are pretty much the fundamental opposite of your jam and that's 100% cool), but I did want to address this because the discomfort you feel at that trope is explicitly and I'd go so far as to say inarguably the core of the game's philosophical backing. Basically, know that the issues that the game has are as a result of some of the hands involved in it's desire to have a cake that the crux of the game was built on eating, not because they play the trope straight.

I'm going to write at length about it now because I wanted to decompress this stuff in shorter form somewhere anyway. I'll discuss several of the game's character arcs and central themes in detail, spoiling mid-game reveals and talking about stuff that doesn't ruin the narrative but isn't shown on the surface of what the game presents itself as. This is going to go a little nuclear, because I'm going to brush on character arc aspects up through the final moments of the game, though I'll avoid discussing the title's biggest NARRATIVE twists.

Disclaimer that Takahashi hasn't written at length about his intentions, so I'm obviously invoking death of the author here. I'd cite the thematic similarities with previous works that he HAS talked at more length about as basis for my claims. This game was still directed and written by him, and it shows heavily.

The core of Xenoblade 2 as a character work is a bildungsroman through the lens of exploration of unhealthy relationship dynamics of many different flavors, including Rex's and Pyra's, and how unequal partnerships and denial of a partner's agency for any reason can lead to incredibly dangerous and toxic outcomes. The crux of its philosophical argument is the assertion that one of the most important elements of being a responsible adult is recognizing and respecting the agency and opinions of your partner.

This is something that many of the human characters struggle with, most of all Rex himself, for the vast majority of the game's length. He's entirely fixated on protecting Pyra, an immortal demigod unbound by the normal life cycles of either blade OR human, who spends most of her time protecting HIM. He sees her as an object to defend in order to gratify his childish impulse to be heroic.

Pyra and her subservient, passive nature are born of psychological dissociation of an old, tired, traumatized demigoddess who found herself sick of being used as a weapon of mass destruction, for good or ill, bound to the will of a human master. She finds herself endeared to Rex's naivety, both in her passive dissociated state, and in her fugue-bound true nature, watching on from the subconscious. She tries to shepherd him and play his damsel as best she can, while shielding him from the worst parts of the world he lives in and her own connection to that darkness.

But the way that Rex acts the white knight, while pure and endearing, comes back to bite him several times. He learns several hard lessons about himself and the world and, as the situation worsens and she stretches herself to the limit trying to protect his endearing naivety from reality, she finally reaches her breaking point.

"I walked in the shadow of the Aegis's light. Blindly walking my own path, while she walked alone."

He finds himself, after a brief collapse, ascending from child playing at a champion to an actual champion before learning on the eve of the ending that his chivalry, though now fully realized, is still a childish notion that inherently disrespects her agency. It's only in the final moments of the game that one of the adult party members with a healthy partnership finally breaks through and teaches him a very important lesson about adulthood. He finds himself becoming the actual, true, equal partner she deserves for the first time only moments before the credits roll, completing his character arc.

"Chum... How long are you planning on being a baby...? She's the girl you love. You gotta accept her decision. That's what being an adult means."

Blades, which can manifest as anything from male or female to completely abstract, monstrous creatures, are functionally immortal demigods, completely impervious to all forms of physical harm, and capable of massive, terrifying feats of destruction. This is mitigated by the fact that their very nature renders them entirely subservient to humans.

They have the consciousness and cognitive abilities of a human--many have the appearance of a human, too, but they are born full formed, with full knowledge of who and what they are and how the world works but nothing else. They exist tangibly only when bound to a human through their interaction with a core crystal. When that human, their driver, dies, the blade returns to the crystal and loses their memories entirely. Next they're awoken, it is in subservience to a new master, as a new person, with no knowledge of their past deeds.

This is something that eats at blades massively throughout the game. They know and recognize that the entire nature of their existence renders them both impossibly more powerful than humans, and eternally their slaves--always at the mercy of the nature and mortality of their driver should they not wish to die a philosophical death. A blade CAN kill their master, but it's tantamount to suicide. You can probably imagine where both the main narrative and sidequests take this concept yourself, so I doubt I need to detail it.

Blades often develop incredibly close relationships with their partners, their very makeup is functionally engineered to ensure this happens and it's far easier to give in and accept it than rail against the reality of their situation. One of the most toxic ways that this bond manifests is with the Flesh Eater. Flesh Eaters are blades who consume their master's heart, taking their organic material into their composition. This has incredibly volatile, violent effects on the Blade's physiological makeup, and also results in the obvious death of their master. When a blade eats a human they, in part, become that person. They take in elements of that person's self and carry it with them. They become mortals, immune to the normal life cycle of blades. They no longer return to their core, they simply die one day--some within hours of their consumption of their driver, some many hundreds of years later. They also gamble on either becoming unprecedentedly powerful or living an existence of constant, excruciating pain with no further benefits.

Most importantly, a Flesh Eater stops losing their memories. As you might expect, many Flesh Eaters are born of shared desperation of blade and driver who have become immensely close. Several of the Flesh Eaters in the game, including one of the central antagonists, are born of this type of dynamic.

Imagine, for a moment, a loved one's final wish being that you take drastic measures necessary to continue living--to not forget them--dooming you to an unwanted life of several hundred years, continuing onward only because it was her final wish that you do so.

Only someone who was in a position of power in an unequal partnership, never truly considering their loved one, would wish this of someone they genuinely cared for if they were thinking clearly. No one in an equal partnership would ACCEPT that burden, honoring a final wish to such extreme detriment of one's self can only occur when one reveres one's partner more than one loves them.

"Sometimes words can become a curse."

This is reality for several of the game's blades. In their reverence of a their masters, they accept a burden that no living being is psychologically ready for--one of living for several centuries on end, constantly subject to the worst elements of humanity.

Both Pyra and the Antagonists share this curse through different means. She addresses it by dissociating. They address it by trying to fix the problem that is humanity by wiping it out. Neither is healthy, and neither is portrayed as being such.

The game has no villains. It has only broken people, a child playing at heroism, and several adults trying to shepherd and mentor him. Because that's an adult's job.

EDIT: Also several juvenile jokes about boobies.
 
Last edited:

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
But men are not objectified. They are idealized. I suggest you watch this video by Jim Sterling to better understand it.



While I don't disagree with Jim's opinion, I remember seeing this video a long time ago I did remember a question creeping up to which I never felt like I had an adequate response to. Although examples escape me, there have been games I played where I felt that male characters, not protagonists, were also somewhat objectified or at the very least seemed to excessively pander to the protagonist. I think I felt that way about characters in some of Bioware's RPGs but I can't quite pinpoint the specific examples. Either way, my question was and still is: do we have good examples of male characters that are objectified in video games?

There's no question in most people's heads that Lara Croft is sexualized despite being increasingly more characterized as a strong female protagonist. But where does the line of a female character being strong and attractive end (like Lara Croft or Bayonetta) and where does needless sexualization begin?

Is the character's design the main influence behind that answer or do the character's mannerisms and responses matter as well?

I feel like the bar of sexualized female characters is slowly moving towards fully-fleshed stronger characters at an snail's pace and there are starting to be some characters in which, at least, I feel blur the lines a little.

I feel like there may be games in which the interpretation of whether or not a character is sexualized or idealized depend more on the person's perspective than the actual character's design or behavior but feel free to argue that against me.
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,356
From my experience this is mostly Japanese games/developers that are guilty of this.

Here are characters that made me go ..'oh errrm.. why?'
FF15 - Cindy
MSGV - Quiet
Xenoblade 2 - Pyra (among others)
SF V - Laura (among some others)

I just don't understand this need to show gratuitous shots of women, when there are perfectly fine examples that exemplify their character and strength.
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
I like Jill but I wish her color scheme wasn't so terrible. Pink on orange? wtf :(
But yeah, the character design in the Tellius games was spectacular. Senri Kita coming back for FE Switch would be the dream.

I hear ya. I haven't even played a Fire Emblem yet, but I LOVE Senri Kita. I've been hoping SNK gets her back for a new Samurai Shodown myself. Ever since seeing her stuff in the obscure PS1 fighter Warrior's Rage I've been hooked.

22287991.jpg
ss0-warriors.jpg

She seems to get the short end of the stick when it comes to fighting games though. I mean first she does artwork for some obscure 3D fighters, then Capcom has her do the character artwork for Capcom Fighting All Stars which I was super stoked about. Her renditions of Capcom characters was great.


I was also excited for Akira. She was sort of the Chun Li of Rival Schools. Funny how of the 4 women only one, Poison, is super sexualized. They even went with a Darkstalkers rep that WASN'T Morrigan (Demitri). But sadly fans complained, and the game was canned. Capcom did release some "lost" artwork she did earlier this year though


Aside from that, I'm really not sure what she's been up to lately. I know she's done some promotional stuff here and there. The latest real involvement with a game that I know of is Samurai Shodown Sen/Edge of Destiny where she returned doing character art/design


Now I'm gushing a bit and getting off topic, and I'm sorry, but overall I'm saying, we definitely need more artists like her working in the industry. I've never seen anything crazy or outrageous from her even when doing someone else's characters. She knows how to rein it in. I hope we see more stuff from her in the future regardless if it's SS or FE.

I'm playing the game right now. When the game isn't shitting the bed with tired...oh so tired anime cliches and straight awful character designs, it's telling a well written and heart felt story with wonderfully realized characters. The problem is it does indeed shit the bed every now and then so that excellent writing is brought to a screeching halt and you have to reorient your brain to get past those parts and enjoy the ride again.

If the music was treated the way the visuals and narrative are, you'd have your wonderful, sweeping adventure music periodically interrupted with Yakkity Sax and Porno Jazz....which already kinda happens any time Tora's theme pops up. God I hate Nopons. Ricky was mildly irritating. Tatsu was mostly obnoxious. Tora is pretty much trash. They just keep getting worse.

I really liked Riki, but I totally agree with you. Granted, I'm still not that far into Xenoblade 2, but Tora really hasn't clicked on the same way Riki did. I kind prefer him over "Tatsu not food Linly!" repeatedly.

Also I forget her name, but my first Rare Blade was the one with the eye patch that kinda looks like a doll. Kinda creepy in her intro and dialog but nothing outrageous compared to what's been posted. Feel kinda lucky.
 

Common Knowledge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,256
Kind of disheartening to see in the (now locked) sexiest 2017 characters thread that some people think characters like Aloy objectively can not be considered sexy because of her design.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,402
Kind of disheartening to see in the (now locked) sexiest 2017 characters thread that some people think characters like Aloy objectively can not be considered sexy because of her design.
When you consider that she is by far the most realistic-looking woman of the list, it becomes uh, kind of telling...
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
The game is super super anime beyond your tolerance, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend you play it (Especially not you, Eden. I know JRPGs are pretty much the fundamental opposite of your jam and that's 100% cool), but I did want to address this because the discomfort you feel at that trope is explicitly and I'd go so far as to say inarguably the core of the game's philosophical backing. Basically, know that the issues that the game has are as a result of some of the hands involved in it's desire to have a cake that the crux of the game was built on eating, not because they play the trope straight.

I'm going to write at length about it now because I wanted to decompress this stuff in shorter form somewhere anyway. I'll discuss several of the game's character arcs and central themes in detail, spoiling mid-game reveals and talking about stuff that doesn't ruin the narrative but isn't shown on the surface of what the game presents itself as. This is going to go a little nuclear, because I'm going to brush on character arc aspects up through the final moments of the game, though I'll avoid discussing the title's biggest NARRATIVE twists.

Disclaimer that Takahashi hasn't written at length about his intentions, so I'm obviously invoking death of the author here. I'd cite the thematic similarities with previous works that he HAS talked at more length about as basis for my claims. This game was still directed and written by him, and it shows heavily.

The core of Xenoblade 2 as a character work is a bildungsroman through the lens of exploration of unhealthy relationship dynamics of many different flavors, including Rex's and Pyra's, and how unequal partnerships and denial of a partner's agency for any reason can lead to incredibly dangerous and toxic outcomes. The crux of its philosophical argument is the assertion that one of the most important elements of being a responsible adult is recognizing and respecting the agency and opinions of your partner.

This is something that many of the human characters struggle with, most of all Rex himself, for the vast majority of the game's length. He's entirely fixated on protecting Pyra, an immortal demigod unbound by the normal life cycles of either blade OR human, who spends most of her time protecting HIM. He sees her as an object to defend in order to gratify his childish impulse to be heroic.

Pyra and her subservient, passive nature are born of psychological dissociation of an old, tired, traumatized demigoddess who found herself sick of being used as a weapon of mass destruction, for good or ill, bound to the will of a human master. She finds herself endeared to Rex's naivety, both in her passive dissociated state, and in her fugue-bound true nature, watching on from the subconscious. She tries to shepherd him and play his damsel as best she can, while shielding him from the worst parts of the world he lives in and her own connection to that darkness.

But the way that Rex acts the white knight, while pure and endearing, comes back to bite him several times. He learns several hard lessons about himself and the world and, as the situation worsens and she stretches herself to the limit trying to protect his endearing naivety from reality, she finally reaches her breaking point.

"I walked in the shadow of the Aegis's light. Blindly walking my own path, while she walked alone."

He finds himself, after a brief collapse, ascending from child playing at a champion to an actual champion before learning on the eve of the ending that his chivalry, though now fully realized, is still a childish notion that inherently disrespects her agency. It's only in the final moments of the game that one of the adult party members with a healthy partnership finally breaks through and teaches him a very important lesson about adulthood. He finds himself becoming the actual, true, equal partner she deserves for the first time only moments before the credits roll, completing his character arc.

"Chum... How long are you planning on being a baby...? She's the girl you love. You gotta accept her decision. That's what being an adult means."

Blades, which can manifest as anything from male or female to completely abstract, monstrous creatures, are functionally immortal demigods, completely impervious to all forms of physical harm, and capable of massive, terrifying feats of destruction. This is mitigated by the fact that their very nature renders them entirely subservient to humans.

They have the consciousness and cognitive abilities of a human--many have the appearance of a human, too, but they are born full formed, with full knowledge of who and what they are and how the world works but nothing else. They exist tangibly only when bound to a human through their interaction with a core crystal. When that human, their driver, dies, the blade returns to the crystal and loses their memories entirely. Next they're awoken, it is in subservience to a new master, as a new person, with no knowledge of their past deeds.

This is something that eats at blades massively throughout the game. They know and recognize that the entire nature of their existence renders them both impossibly more powerful than humans, and eternally their slaves--always at the mercy of the nature and mortality of their driver should they not wish to die a philosophical death. A blade CAN kill their master, but it's tantamount to suicide. You can probably imagine where both the main narrative and sidequests take this concept yourself, so I doubt I need to detail it.

Blades often develop incredibly close relationships with their partners, their very makeup is functionally engineered to ensure this happens and it's far easier to give in and accept it than rail against the reality of their situation. One of the most toxic ways that this bond manifests is with the Flesh Eater. Flesh Eaters are blades who consume their master's heart, taking their organic material into their composition. This has incredibly volatile, violent effects on the Blade's physiological makeup, and also results in the obvious death of their master. When a blade eats a human they, in part, become that person. They take in elements of that person's self and carry it with them. They become mortals, immune to the normal life cycle of blades. They no longer return to their core, they simply die one day--some within hours of their consumption of their driver, some many hundreds of years later. They also gamble on either becoming unprecedentedly powerful or living an existence of constant, excruciating pain with no further benefits.

Most importantly, a Flesh Eater stops losing their memories. As you might expect, many Flesh Eaters are born of shared desperation of blade and driver who have become immensely close. Several of the Flesh Eaters in the game, including one of the central antagonists, are born of this type of dynamic.

Imagine, for a moment, a loved one's final wish being that you take drastic measures necessary to continue living--to not forget them--dooming you to an unwanted life of several hundred years, continuing onward only because it was her final wish that you do so.

Only someone who was in a position of power in an unequal partnership, never truly considering their loved one, would wish this of someone they genuinely cared for if they were thinking clearly. No one in an equal partnership would ACCEPT that burden, honoring a final wish to such extreme detriment of one's self can only occur when one reveres one's partner more than one loves them.

"Sometimes words can become a curse."

This is reality for several of the game's blades. In their reverence of a their masters, they accept a burden that no living being is psychologically ready for--one of living for several centuries on end, constantly subject to the worst elements of humanity.

Both Pyra and the Antagonists share this curse through different means. She addresses it by dissociating. They address it by trying to fix the problem that is humanity by wiping it out. Neither is healthy, and neither is portrayed as being such.

The game has no villains. It has only broken people, a child playing at heroism, and several adults trying to shepherd and mentor him. Because that's an adult's job.

EDIT: Also several juvenile jokes about boobies.

It's also fascinating to look at how relationships the dynamic of both Amalthus and Mallus. Amalthus is a villain filled with hatred and loathing to the world. He feels cheated by the world for losing his mother at a young age. He, despite being a healer and helper throughout most of his life, constantly sees people fail what are his standards of life such as seeing the people he saved trying to murder a child. This led him to be filled with loathing, culminating in his journey to the World Tree and collecting the Aegis's. And it is this extreme loathing that is passed onto Mallus as Driver and Blade. Amalthus wants to control the world and force it to his image of perfection while Mallus takes his self-loathing and wants to destroy everything. Both try to destroy the world, Mallus by trying to activate Aeon, Amalthus by destroying Tonra and controlling and purifying the Core Crystals, preventing them from becoming Titans. And its this shared toxic loathing that causes Mallus to relate so well to both Jin and the rest of Tonra.

But Mallus goes further than even Amalthus's loathing of humanity and the world, Mallus is filled with disgust with both himself and his driver, even if he doesn't want to admit it. He despises the Architect for being put in this situation and despises himself for being an irredeemable monster. Like, Jin, he has a death wish because this self-loathing was never allowed to vanish by returning to a core crystal. He is forced to burden being laden with this hatred and lashes out.

What's interesting is that both characters are still empathetic. Amalthus saves Zeke because he reminds him of himself. Despite using Zeke as an unknown hostage, he seems to like Zeke as a person and tries to be a parental figure. Mallus treats Tonra with a respect and politeness he doesn't have with anyone else. Despite them fighting on opposite sides during the Aegis War, Mallus sees his self-loathing and hatred of humanity in the blades of Tonra and tries to give them the revenge/deaths they crave.

It's really fascinating to also compare them to The Architect, who also is another character with deep self-loathing and another catalyst in Amalthus's belief that the world was toxic. The Architect, unlike Zanza, is filled with immense regret of his actions in the Orbit Station. He is filled with deep self-loathing and tries to make amends but, like Zanza, believes fate is preordained and his efforts are doomed to fail. This is why he lets Amalthus steal the Aegis and doesn't do anything until his death. Its an interesting contrast to the heroes, who are hopeful in different ways. Hopeful in humanity's future, hopeful in its nature and hopeful that things change for the better. It provides a nice contrast to separate our band of heroes from the villains.

Nia's also has a great character arc but I think I'll talk about her later. Or you can talk about her.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
a harmless rabbit you're really making me want to play Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and - I think I've said in here too many times :P - I hated the first one.

Oh no!

Everything you're talking about in the story is totally my jam.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
a harmless rabbit you're really making me want to play Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and - I think I've said in here too many times :P - I hated the first one.

Oh no!

Everything you're talking about in the story is totally my jam.

JOIN US! :P

If I remember you said you didn't like the battle system which unfortunately doesn't change so I still don't know whether or not to recommend it to you. I also feel like watching a LP of the game isn't wise as well.
 

Mezoly

Jimbo Replacement
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,401
Kind of disheartening to see in the (now locked) sexiest 2017 characters thread that some people think characters like Aloy objectively can not be considered sexy because of her design.
When someone responded to me saying even based on her face she shouldn't be on the list, I had to laugh. I mean the number 1 character on the list 2b have half of her face covered through out almost the entirety of the game but no one was complaining she deoesn't deserve to be on the list.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
It's also fascinating to look at how relationships the dynamic of both Amalthus and Mallus. Amalthus is a villain filled with hatred and loathing to the world. He feels cheated by the world for losing his mother at a young age. He, despite being a healer and helper throughout most of his life, constantly sees people fail what are his standards of life such as seeing the people he saved trying to murder a child. This led him to be filled with loathing, culminating in his journey to the World Tree and collecting the Aegis's. And it is this extreme loathing that is passed onto Mallus as Driver and Blade. Amalthus wants to control the world and force it to his image of perfection while Mallus takes his self-loathing and wants to destroy everything. Both try to destroy the world, Mallus by trying to activate Aeon, Amalthus by destroying Tonra and controlling and purifying the Core Crystals, preventing them from becoming Titans. And its this shared toxic loathing that causes Mallus to relate so well to both Jin and the rest of Tonra.

But Mallus goes further than even Amalthus's loathing of humanity and the world, Mallus is filled with disgust with both himself and his driver, even if he doesn't want to admit it. He despises the Architect for being put in this situation and despises himself for being an irredeemable monster. Like, Jin, he has a death wish because this self-loathing was never allowed to vanish by returning to a core crystal. He is forced to burden being laden with this hatred and lashes out.

What's interesting is that both characters are still empathetic. Amalthus saves Zeke because he reminds him of himself. Despite using Zeke as an unknown hostage, he seems to like Zeke as a person and tries to be a parental figure. Mallus treats Tonra with a respect and politeness he doesn't have with anyone else. Despite them fighting on opposite sides during the Aegis War, Mallus sees his self-loathing and hatred of humanity in the blades of Tonra and tries to give them the revenge/deaths they crave.

It's really fascinating to also compare them to The Architect, who also is another character with deep self-loathing and another catalyst in Amalthus's belief that the world was toxic. The Architect, unlike Zanza, is filled with immense regret of his actions in the Orbit Station. He is filled with deep self-loathing and tries to make amends but, like Zanza, believes fate is preordained and his efforts are doomed to fail. This is why he lets Amalthus steal the Aegis and doesn't do anything until his death. Its an interesting contrast to the heroes, who are hopeful in different ways. Hopeful in humanity's future, hopeful in its nature and hopeful that things change for the better. It provides a nice contrast to separate our band of heroes from the villains.

Nia's also has a great character arc but I think I'll talk about her later. Or you can talk about her.
Yes. All of this. I--god, I have so much to write about the game over time once I've finished unpacking it. Not just because I have a lot of mean, nasty things to say about what the art design does for it, but because my god it's taking me days to unpack the narrative and characters. I really do think it's Takahashi's best singular narrative, and I worship Xenogears like a minor deity so that's not an easy claim to make--recency bias may make it fade over time, but I get the impression it's really going to stick with me. It places me in a really odd position, mentally, since it does so much WRONG on other fronts too, to its great detriment.

Morag is meme-great, but Nia is my favorite game character of the year, and the number of times the game made me whimpery as a result of freaking sidequests is too damn high. I wish I could gush about it without all the damn qualifiers.

EDIT: That first quote in my spoilered essay is one of my favorite single lines from a Takahashi game. It's a bit cheesy, but it's so, so good and it REALLY cuts to the core of what the game is about.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,406
The game is super super anime beyond your tolerance, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend you play it (Especially not you, Eden. I know JRPGs are pretty much the fundamental opposite of your jam and that's 100% cool), but I did want to address this because the discomfort you feel at that trope is explicitly and I'd go so far as to say inarguably the core of the game's philosophical backing. Basically, know that the issues that the game has are as a result of some of the hands involved in it's desire to have a cake that the crux of the game was built on eating, not because they play the trope straight.

I'm going to write at length about it now because I wanted to decompress this stuff in shorter form somewhere anyway. I'll discuss several of the game's character arcs and central themes in detail, spoiling mid-game reveals and talking about stuff that doesn't ruin the narrative but isn't shown on the surface of what the game presents itself as. This is going to go a little nuclear, because I'm going to brush on character arc aspects up through the final moments of the game, though I'll avoid discussing the title's biggest NARRATIVE twists.

Disclaimer that Takahashi hasn't written at length about his intentions, so I'm obviously invoking death of the author here. I'd cite the thematic similarities with previous works that he HAS talked at more length about as basis for my claims. This game was still directed and written by him, and it shows heavily.

The core of Xenoblade 2 as a character work is a bildungsroman through the lens of exploration of unhealthy relationship dynamics of many different flavors, including Rex's and Pyra's, and how unequal partnerships and denial of a partner's agency for any reason can lead to incredibly dangerous and toxic outcomes. The crux of its philosophical argument is the assertion that one of the most important elements of being a responsible adult is recognizing and respecting the agency and opinions of your partner.

This is something that many of the human characters struggle with, most of all Rex himself, for the vast majority of the game's length. He's entirely fixated on protecting Pyra, an immortal demigod unbound by the normal life cycles of either blade OR human, who spends most of her time protecting HIM. He sees her as an object to defend in order to gratify his childish impulse to be heroic.

Pyra and her subservient, passive nature are born of psychological dissociation of an old, tired, traumatized demigoddess who found herself sick of being used as a weapon of mass destruction, for good or ill, bound to the will of a human master. She finds herself endeared to Rex's naivety, both in her passive dissociated state, and in her fugue-bound true nature, watching on from the subconscious. She tries to shepherd him and play his damsel as best she can, while shielding him from the worst parts of the world he lives in and her own connection to that darkness.

But the way that Rex acts the white knight, while pure and endearing, comes back to bite him several times. He learns several hard lessons about himself and the world and, as the situation worsens and she stretches herself to the limit trying to protect his endearing naivety from reality, she finally reaches her breaking point.

"I walked in the shadow of the Aegis's light. Blindly walking my own path, while she walked alone."

He finds himself, after a brief collapse, ascending from child playing at a champion to an actual champion before learning on the eve of the ending that his chivalry, though now fully realized, is still a childish notion that inherently disrespects her agency. It's only in the final moments of the game that one of the adult party members with a healthy partnership finally breaks through and teaches him a very important lesson about adulthood. He finds himself becoming the actual, true, equal partner she deserves for the first time only moments before the credits roll, completing his character arc.

"Chum... How long are you planning on being a baby...? She's the girl you love. You gotta accept her decision. That's what being an adult means."

Blades, which can manifest as anything from male or female to completely abstract, monstrous creatures, are functionally immortal demigods, completely impervious to all forms of physical harm, and capable of massive, terrifying feats of destruction. This is mitigated by the fact that their very nature renders them entirely subservient to humans.

They have the consciousness and cognitive abilities of a human--many have the appearance of a human, too, but they are born full formed, with full knowledge of who and what they are and how the world works but nothing else. They exist tangibly only when bound to a human through their interaction with a core crystal. When that human, their driver, dies, the blade returns to the crystal and loses their memories entirely. Next they're awoken, it is in subservience to a new master, as a new person, with no knowledge of their past deeds.

This is something that eats at blades massively throughout the game. They know and recognize that the entire nature of their existence renders them both impossibly more powerful than humans, and eternally their slaves--always at the mercy of the nature and mortality of their driver should they not wish to die a philosophical death. A blade CAN kill their master, but it's tantamount to suicide. You can probably imagine where both the main narrative and sidequests take this concept yourself, so I doubt I need to detail it.

Blades often develop incredibly close relationships with their partners, their very makeup is functionally engineered to ensure this happens and it's far easier to give in and accept it than rail against the reality of their situation. One of the most toxic ways that this bond manifests is with the Flesh Eater. Flesh Eaters are blades who consume their master's heart, taking their organic material into their composition. This has incredibly volatile, violent effects on the Blade's physiological makeup, and also results in the obvious death of their master. When a blade eats a human they, in part, become that person. They take in elements of that person's self and carry it with them. They become mortals, immune to the normal life cycle of blades. They no longer return to their core, they simply die one day--some within hours of their consumption of their driver, some many hundreds of years later. They also gamble on either becoming unprecedentedly powerful or living an existence of constant, excruciating pain with no further benefits.

Most importantly, a Flesh Eater stops losing their memories. As you might expect, many Flesh Eaters are born of shared desperation of blade and driver who have become immensely close. Several of the Flesh Eaters in the game, including one of the central antagonists, are born of this type of dynamic.

Imagine, for a moment, a loved one's final wish being that you take drastic measures necessary to continue living--to not forget them--dooming you to an unwanted life of several hundred years, continuing onward only because it was her final wish that you do so.

Only someone who was in a position of power in an unequal partnership, never truly considering their loved one, would wish this of someone they genuinely cared for if they were thinking clearly. No one in an equal partnership would ACCEPT that burden, honoring a final wish to such extreme detriment of one's self can only occur when one reveres one's partner more than one loves them.

"Sometimes words can become a curse."

This is reality for several of the game's blades. In their reverence of a their masters, they accept a burden that no living being is psychologically ready for--one of living for several centuries on end, constantly subject to the worst elements of humanity.

Both Pyra and the Antagonists share this curse through different means. She addresses it by dissociating. They address it by trying to fix the problem that is humanity by wiping it out. Neither is healthy, and neither is portrayed as being such.

The game has no villains. It has only broken people, a child playing at heroism, and several adults trying to shepherd and mentor him. Because that's an adult's job.

EDIT: Also several juvenile jokes about boobies.
You're certainly right that it's hella anime way beyond my tolerance for it. In terms of cinematography, animation, acting, etc., As that's not a really bad premise at all but then I see the game and it's poor cinematography, animation, and VA and I just can't.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
You're certainly right that it's hella anime way beyond my tolerance for it. In terms of cinematography, animation, acting, etc., As that's not a really bad premise at all but then I see the game and it's poor cinematography, animation, and VA and I just can't.

The hilarious thing is that, for the most part, the camera is trying its hardest to avoid all of the anime fanservice camera shots that such character designs entail. The camera seems to realize that the story is trying to portray itself seriously and avoids low shots, avoids angling shots to the cleavage, avoids jiggle physics as long as it can and tries its hardest to pose the best shots possible...which, thanks to how stupid and objectified the outfits are, are an exercise in futility. The costumes are so sexualized that normally decent shots, such as just showing a character straight on is ruined because boob socks and cleavage. It's just amazing to see how badly these designs hurt the narrative and message the game is trying to convey.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,406
The hilarious thing is that, for the most part, the camera is trying its hardest to avoid all of the anime fanservice camera shots that such character designs entail. The camera seems to realize that the story is trying to portray itself seriously and avoids low shots, avoids angling shots to the cleavage, avoids jiggle physics as long as it can and tries its hardest to pose the best shots possible...which, thanks to how stupid and objectified the outfits are, are an exercise in futility. The costumes are so sexualized that normally decent shots, such as just showing a character straight on is ruined because boob socks and cleavage. It's just amazing to see how badly these designs hurt the narrative and message the game is trying to convey.
I meant general cinematography not just voyeur.exe.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
JOIN US! :P

If I remember you said you didn't like the battle system which unfortunately doesn't change so I still don't know whether or not to recommend it to you. I also feel like watching a LP of the game isn't wise as well.
D: !

Yeah it was the combat, but more than the system itself, it was the grinding.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I meant general cinematography not just voyeur.exe.

Ah, yeah, that's true. I think I just used your post to talk about it because I just cannot shut up about this game.

D: !

Yeah it was the combat, but more than the system itself, it was the grinding.

Grinding in this game is weird. There are definitely grinding in some parts, but for leveling, if you have a good idea on what to do, is hardly ever a problem. The issue comes from the fact that just to level up, you need to do like 20 things and go through 20 different menus.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
I meant general cinematography not just voyeur.exe.
I mean, there's a lot to be said about the differences between schools and styles of cinematography between different subcultural media and countries, but through the lens of the classic JRPG's particular visual language Xenoblade 2 has a lot of extremely well shot and choreographed scenes. The difference is that they basically happen a few dozen times over the course of the game, with the vast majority being either completely rote shot-reverse shot fare, or even just static characters using stock animations. This plays into different philosophies in direction between mid-low budget JRPGs (where Monololith comes from) and blockbusters.

It's still using techniques that were used in the PS1 and early PS2 era, and devoting most of its effort into the Biggest Possible Moments--a philosophical difference that also follows through into how most popular Japanese media handles plotting or screenwriting (with an extreme focus on dramatic climaxes, and less attention paid to how one gets there), and how Anime handles use of actual quality animation as well (with the most important cuts done with extreme flourish and no expense spared, and as much of a work as otherwise possible done with still images and lipflaps).

Which isn't to say that you're wrong, not in the least. It's one of MANY components of why JRPGs, Anime, and the like are extremely divisive and often outright repellent to people who didn't grow up on them, beyond the more immediately obvious "Anime Being Anime" stuff. There's a lot more happening behind the scenes to push people away than just the obvious stuff.

If I were to recommend a JRPG to someone who had little love for or familiarity with JRPGs or Anime, Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is among the LAST games I'd ever consider.

Linking a tangentially relevant bit on Anime's directorial philosophies with regard to animation quality ft. Dan from Extra Credits/Extra Frames, since it touches a bit on this philosophical difference that's so pervasive and divisive, just because it's easily digestible and came to mind. (iirc. you're an animator, so you probably already know this stuff)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91uZo9v-rXA
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
Kind of disheartening to see in the (now locked) sexiest 2017 characters thread that some people think characters like Aloy objectively can not be considered sexy because of her design.

Was this recently? I didn't see it.

Seeing that thread about Xenoblade's Chapter 4 and all the talk here has left me both eager to get there to see how bad it is and also fills me with dread wondering just how bad it is.

There is only true Kat girl for me this year. That said, I've liked Nia a lot from what I've seen of her so far. Need to dive back into XB2 already, Zelda DLC distracted me. (Also I forgot how much I love the Gerudo tribe)

I'm in the same boat. That new Urbosa flashback... <3 <3 <3
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
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Nov 11, 2017
3,831
I'd just like to point out that Senri Kita returning to Fire Emblem does not preclude fanservice designs from disappearing. As I believe I've pointed out before, when given more free reign, it seems like Kozaki doesn't really do fetishy stuff like Nowi or Camilla. Meanwhile in Awakening and Fates he was kind of beholden to what the higher ups and the armor designer told him, and I guess when coming up with design points for Tharja, Camilla, Charlotte, Nyx, and Nowi they got kinda horny. So she'd probably be made to make such designs too.

*Note: I know they probably weren't actually horny, it's a joking shorthand.

I will say I'm a tad confused by the idea that the side characters not effecting the story much in Awakening and Fates is unusual for the series. I've only played those two, admittedly, and a bit of Radiant Dawn, but I've watched scenes from previous games on the Youtubes and sidelining characters seemed rampant in FE7 at least. For instance, Lucius, probably my favorite character among the FE7 cast, doesn't impact the story beyond his introduction in either route he appears in beyond his initial stage in both, nor do his supports go into much depth, which is a shame since he's a proto-Libra and had a potential for similar depth (like good God are Libra's supports wonderful, so much backstory and character building). As is he's a good character but not as good as he could be.
 

Haganeren

Member
Oct 28, 2017
89
I meant general cinematography not just voyeur.exe.

Well if it's cinematography, i think the opposite. J-RPG (with budget) tends to have more "soul" in what they try to do with their camera that anything else in the industry... And Xenoblade have one of the best of all, the action scene like bad guys flowing around and then coming at you or the way everything feel so DYNAMIC make me one of the most memorable way to film something in a video game to me... But hey, i like anime so... Xenoblade X is somewhat bizarre with it, most of the shot are VERY boring but sometime, there is moment with actual works on it... Strange...
Animation is something i tend to love in a lot of those J-RPG (with budget) too.. And yeah, NieR Automata seems to have budget and i actually like how Square make those cinematics since the PSX days.

Well, not all J RPG have that budget though, some don't even try to make camera angle (Atelier) and that's mostly for the best, some try and it's unfortunately very cheap (Trails of Cold Steel) and other are just boring (What i have seen on Tales of games)
So yeah, depends of the license i guess.

I think Western developpers really nailed First Person Narration over the years to compensate though.
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
a harmless rabbit, I'd like to thank you for rekindling my interest in this game. I'm still in chapter 3 and have been struggling to stay engaged. I fell effortlessly into the first Xenoblade and Xenoblade X (not that they didn't have their issues), but this one has been an uphill battle. The last thing I did in the game was home button my way out of Tora's "smile for me when you serve tea, hunny" heart to heart. Have I mentioned how much I hate that little shit?
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Tora does sound like a little shit and I hope there's a chance for you to punch him in the face. I fully intend to get XB2 sometime (in no small part due to the people ITT talking about its good points like rabbit) because I could just use a real JRPG, but he feels like he'll quickly turn into a Mineta for me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
a harmless rabbit, I'd like to thank you for rekindling my interest in this game. I'm still in chapter 3 and have been struggling to stay engaged. I fell effortlessly into the first Xenoblade and Xenoblade X (not that they didn't have their issues), but this one has been an uphill battle. The last thing I did in the game was home button my way out of Tora's "smile for me when you serve tea, hunny" heart to heart. Have I mentioned how much I hate that little shit?
I'm glad I was able to help!

I feel like it was a really special game, but I also probably made it sound better than it "actually is" since my discussion of its core philosophies, while substantiated pretty heavily by the actual text (I used quotes!) kind of sidesteps all of the anime humor and shit that happens in between. The beats are there, and goddamn are they resonant, but it's still an anime-ass anime, doing anime things.

It helped me a lot with Tora to keep reminding myself that he's a 13-ish year old raised by a pair of deranged perverts who doesn't know any better, and I was at least thankful for how hard Poppi roasts him on a regular basis. It doesn't say anything positive for the people who wrote the jokes, mind, just him as a character viewed solely through the lens of assessing him as a theoretical person. He reminded me a lot of Yosuke from Persona 4 where it was like a constant "Dude, dude, NO. You--NO. You can't just DO that," but it also made sense for someone of his age and background to act like that.

Poppi cuts DEEP, too. And not just about the weird sex stuff. They honestly really endeared themselves to me by the end, though Poppi a lot more than Tora. They do some really fun things with her that more than justify his presence in the game just to have made her, in my mind.
 
Last edited:

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,406
Ah, yeah, that's true. I think I just used your post to talk about it because I just cannot shut up about this game.
All good.

I mean, there's a lot to be said about the differences between schools and styles of cinematography between different subcultural media and countries, but through the lens of the classic JRPG's particular visual language Xenoblade 2 has a lot of extremely well shot and choreographed scenes. The difference is that they basically happen a few dozen times over the course of the game, with the vast majority being either completely rote shot-reverse shot fare, or even just static characters using stock animations. This plays into different philosophies in direction between mid-low budget JRPGs (where Monololith comes from) and blockbusters.

It's still using techniques that were used in the PS1 and early PS2 era, and devoting most of its effort into the Biggest Possible Moments--a philosophical difference that also follows through into how most popular Japanese media handles plotting or screenwriting (with an extreme focus on dramatic climaxes, and less attention paid to how one gets there), and how Anime handles use of actual quality animation as well (with the most important cuts done with extreme flourish and no expense spared, and as much of a work as otherwise possible done with still images and lipflaps).

Which isn't to say that you're wrong, not in the least. It's one of MANY components of why JRPGs, Anime, and the like are extremely divisive and often outright repellent to people who didn't grow up on them, beyond the more immediately obvious "Anime Being Anime" stuff. There's a lot more happening behind the scenes to push people away than just the obvious stuff.

If I were to recommend a JRPG to someone who had little love for or familiarity with JRPGs or Anime, Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is among the LAST games I'd ever consider.

Linking a tangentially relevant bit on Anime's directorial philosophies with regard to animation quality ft. Dan from Extra Credits/Extra Frames, since it touches a bit on this philosophical difference that's so pervasive and divisive, just because it's easily digestible and came to mind. (iirc. you're an animator, so you probably already know this stuff)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91uZo9v-rXA
Yea but that's the thing is that even the shots that do transparently have much more time and budget devoted to them don't look that well shot to me. It's like cinematography in games is getting so damn good, (especially this year goddamn devs put in that goddamn work) that the floaty anime camera gets increasingly more jarring as the medium evolves. Wish they would do a better job of making it feel like a physical camera, or even how the characters are framed in the scene, or the shot choices.

Well if it's cinematography, i think the opposite. J-RPG (with budget) tends to have more "soul" in what they try to do with their camera that anything else in the industry... And Xenoblade have one of the best of all, the action scene like bad guys flowing around and then coming at you or the way everything feel so DYNAMIC make me one of the most memorable way to film something in a video game to me... But hey, i like anime so... Xenoblade X is somewhat bizarre with it, most of the shot are VERY boring but sometime, there is moment with actual works on it... Strange...
Animation is something i tend to love in a lot of those J-RPG (with budget) too.. And yeah, NieR Automata seems to have budget and i actually like how Square make those cinematics since the PSX days.

Well, not all J RPG have that budget though, some don't even try to make camera angle (Atelier) and that's mostly for the best, some try and it's unfortunately very cheap (Trails of Cold Steel) and other are just boring (What i have seen on Tales of games)
So yeah, depends of the license i guess.

I think Western developpers really nailed First Person Narration over the years to compensate though.
I definitely disagree with pretty much everything you just said. Especially the part about "Soul." Like, I don't think i've ever seen a JRPG with camera work as well done as Hellblade or Wolfenstein for example. They tend not to do anything unique with their camera, quite the opposite actually, they tend to emulate stuff that's been done many times before, ex below:
gzXDbY6.gif
 
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RedHoodedOwl

Member
Nov 3, 2017
14,245
Tora does sound like a little shit and I hope there's a chance for you to punch him in the face. I fully intend to get XB2 sometime (in no small part due to the people ITT talking about its good points like rabbit) because I could just use a real JRPG, but he feels like he'll quickly turn into a Mineta for me.

LMAO! Tora is the common pervert in shounen anime that is suppose to be the comedy relief.
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
I'd just like to point out that Senri Kita returning to Fire Emblem does not preclude fanservice designs from disappearing. As I believe I've pointed out before, when given more free reign, it seems like Kozaki doesn't really do fetishy stuff like Nowi or Camilla. Meanwhile in Awakening and Fates he was kind of beholden to what the higher ups and the armor designer told him, and I guess when coming up with design points for Tharja, Camilla, Charlotte, Nyx, and Nowi they got kinda horny. So she'd probably be made to make such designs too.

*Note: I know they probably weren't actually horny, it's a joking shorthand.

I have to wonder if the notes are anything like Yuji Hori's notes to Akira Toriyama

From http://www.siliconera.com/2017/08/0...yama-design-dragon-quest-xis-main-characters/

Protagonist


image: http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DragonQuestXICharacters3_thumb.jpg




  • A 16-year old boy at about 170cm in height.
  • A "hero" pursued by the kingdom, at the mercy of fate.
  • A design that will make you think of "hero in the rough" who is different from past heroes.


Camus


image: http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DragonQuestXICharacters6_thumb.jpg




  • A cool 19-year-old young man of about 175cm in height.
  • A mysterious hooded "Thief" who protects the hero under pursuit.
  • A master of the sword who travels with the protagonist in order to _____.
  • Outfit pointers: He wears a hooded outfit. His hood is usually down.


Senya


image: http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DragonQuestXICharacters5_thumb.jpg




  • ______ of about 160cm in height.
  • A "Priest" descended from a family tasked with protecting the hero.
  • An easygoing and innocent personality. Has a harp.
  • Outfit pointers: please make it a miniskirt.


Veronica


image: http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DragonQuestXICharacters4_thumb.jpg




  • A _______ girl of about 125cm in height.
  • A "Mage" descended from a family tasked with protecting the hero.
  • A robe and staff that is too big for her size. A strong personality.


Silvia


image: http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DragonQuestXICharacters2_thumb.jpg




  • A ♥-year-old man of about 185cm in height.
  • A dashing entertainer with a feminine way of speaking.
  • A slim but muscular man with sex appeal. The party's mood maker (life of a party).


Martina


image: http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DragonQuestXICharacters1_thumb.jpg




  • A ___ year-old girl of about 170cm in height.
  • A "Female Monk" who travels the world with Row and has style.
  • Is a mix of elegant and ____. Is sexy.
  • Costume pointers: Please give her a cool weapon like a Naginata.


Row


image: http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DragonQuestXICharacters7_thumb.jpg




  • An old man of around 70 years of age and 155cm in height.
  • A "Mage" who travels with Martina.
  • He used to be a _____.
  • A nice old man.

And the final result

image: http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/DF2UVaPUMAAZV0m_thumb.jpg

DF2UVaPUMAAZV0m_thumb.jpg



If the notes for Fire Emblem were in a similar format, what DID they say for someone like Nowi?
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
The game is super super anime beyond your tolerance, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend you play it (Especially not you, Eden. I know JRPGs are pretty much the fundamental opposite of your jam and that's 100% cool), but I did want to address this because the discomfort you feel at that trope is explicitly and I'd go so far as to say inarguably the core of the game's philosophical backing. Basically, know that the issues that the game has are as a result of some of the hands involved in it's desire to have a cake that the crux of the game was built on eating, not because they play the trope straight.

I'm going to write at length about it now because I wanted to decompress this stuff in shorter form somewhere anyway. I'll discuss several of the game's character arcs and central themes in detail, spoiling mid-game reveals and talking about stuff that doesn't ruin the narrative but isn't shown on the surface of what the game presents itself as. This is going to go a little nuclear, because I'm going to brush on character arc aspects up through the final moments of the game, though I'll avoid discussing the title's biggest NARRATIVE twists.

Disclaimer that Takahashi hasn't written at length about his intentions, so I'm obviously invoking death of the author here. I'd cite the thematic similarities with previous works that he HAS talked at more length about as basis for my claims. This game was still directed and written by him, and it shows heavily.

The core of Xenoblade 2 as a character work is a bildungsroman through the lens of exploration of unhealthy relationship dynamics of many different flavors, including Rex's and Pyra's, and how unequal partnerships and denial of a partner's agency for any reason can lead to incredibly dangerous and toxic outcomes. The crux of its philosophical argument is the assertion that one of the most important elements of being a responsible adult is recognizing and respecting the agency and opinions of your partner.

This is something that many of the human characters struggle with, most of all Rex himself, for the vast majority of the game's length. He's entirely fixated on protecting Pyra, an immortal demigod unbound by the normal life cycles of either blade OR human, who spends most of her time protecting HIM. He sees her as an object to defend in order to gratify his childish impulse to be heroic.

Pyra and her subservient, passive nature are born of psychological dissociation of an old, tired, traumatized demigoddess who found herself sick of being used as a weapon of mass destruction, for good or ill, bound to the will of a human master. She finds herself endeared to Rex's naivety, both in her passive dissociated state, and in her fugue-bound true nature, watching on from the subconscious. She tries to shepherd him and play his damsel as best she can, while shielding him from the worst parts of the world he lives in and her own connection to that darkness.

But the way that Rex acts the white knight, while pure and endearing, comes back to bite him several times. He learns several hard lessons about himself and the world and, as the situation worsens and she stretches herself to the limit trying to protect his endearing naivety from reality, she finally reaches her breaking point.

"I walked in the shadow of the Aegis's light. Blindly walking my own path, while she walked alone."

He finds himself, after a brief collapse, ascending from child playing at a champion to an actual champion before learning on the eve of the ending that his chivalry, though now fully realized, is still a childish notion that inherently disrespects her agency. It's only in the final moments of the game that one of the adult party members with a healthy partnership finally breaks through and teaches him a very important lesson about adulthood. He finds himself becoming the actual, true, equal partner she deserves for the first time only moments before the credits roll, completing his character arc.

"Chum... How long are you planning on being a baby...? She's the girl you love. You gotta accept her decision. That's what being an adult means."

Blades, which can manifest as anything from male or female to completely abstract, monstrous creatures, are functionally immortal demigods, completely impervious to all forms of physical harm, and capable of massive, terrifying feats of destruction. This is mitigated by the fact that their very nature renders them entirely subservient to humans.

They have the consciousness and cognitive abilities of a human--many have the appearance of a human, too, but they are born full formed, with full knowledge of who and what they are and how the world works but nothing else. They exist tangibly only when bound to a human through their interaction with a core crystal. When that human, their driver, dies, the blade returns to the crystal and loses their memories entirely. Next they're awoken, it is in subservience to a new master, as a new person, with no knowledge of their past deeds.

This is something that eats at blades massively throughout the game. They know and recognize that the entire nature of their existence renders them both impossibly more powerful than humans, and eternally their slaves--always at the mercy of the nature and mortality of their driver should they not wish to die a philosophical death. A blade CAN kill their master, but it's tantamount to suicide. You can probably imagine where both the main narrative and sidequests take this concept yourself, so I doubt I need to detail it.

Blades often develop incredibly close relationships with their partners, their very makeup is functionally engineered to ensure this happens and it's far easier to give in and accept it than rail against the reality of their situation. One of the most toxic ways that this bond manifests is with the Flesh Eater. Flesh Eaters are blades who consume their master's heart, taking their organic material into their composition. This has incredibly volatile, violent effects on the Blade's physiological makeup, and also results in the obvious death of their master. When a blade eats a human they, in part, become that person. They take in elements of that person's self and carry it with them. They become mortals, immune to the normal life cycle of blades. They no longer return to their core, they simply die one day--some within hours of their consumption of their driver, some many hundreds of years later. They also gamble on either becoming unprecedentedly powerful or living an existence of constant, excruciating pain with no further benefits.

Most importantly, a Flesh Eater stops losing their memories. As you might expect, many Flesh Eaters are born of shared desperation of blade and driver who have become immensely close. Several of the Flesh Eaters in the game, including one of the central antagonists, are born of this type of dynamic.

Imagine, for a moment, a loved one's final wish being that you take drastic measures necessary to continue living--to not forget them--dooming you to an unwanted life of several hundred years, continuing onward only because it was her final wish that you do so.

Only someone who was in a position of power in an unequal partnership, never truly considering their loved one, would wish this of someone they genuinely cared for if they were thinking clearly. No one in an equal partnership would ACCEPT that burden, honoring a final wish to such extreme detriment of one's self can only occur when one reveres one's partner more than one loves them.

"Sometimes words can become a curse."

This is reality for several of the game's blades. In their reverence of a their masters, they accept a burden that no living being is psychologically ready for--one of living for several centuries on end, constantly subject to the worst elements of humanity.

Both Pyra and the Antagonists share this curse through different means. She addresses it by dissociating. They address it by trying to fix the problem that is humanity by wiping it out. Neither is healthy, and neither is portrayed as being such.

The game has no villains. It has only broken people, a child playing at heroism, and several adults trying to shepherd and mentor him. Because that's an adult's job.

EDIT: Also several juvenile jokes about boobies.

I can appreciate when rendered at their core, these themes are very interesting, but I don't see the need for the absurdity of the blade designs. Heck, I actually stand by the idea that these themes could be more directly profound and moving if they tonned down the obvious fan service. Sure, make them look attractive, make them look desirable, but do we really need the camera ogling them, the fetish attire, and boob physics? A game certainly could use more tasteful and mature means to communicate this as I feel similarly any arthouse type film could.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
I can appreciate when rendered at their core, these themes are very interesting, but I don't see the need for the absurdity of the blade designs. Heck, I actually stand by the idea that these themes could be more directly profound and moving if they tonned down the obvious fan service. Sure, make them look attractive, make them look desirable, but do we really need the camera ogling them, the fetish attire, and boob physics? A game certainly could use more tasteful and mature means to communicate this as I feel similarly any arthouse type film could.
Well, yeah, that's kind of my entire point. The character designs could be fully excused for just being what they are in a trashy, deliberately pandery JRPG that exists for that purpose. They could be mostly ignored, personally speaking, if they were in a rote, standard JRPG too. But in this case they actively run counter to the entire (rather nonstandard!) message of the game on a fundamental level. It's not just that they're pandering, they're pandering counter to the game's actual POINT. Like, you can argue the finer details of my read of the game pretty openly--like I said, death of the author and all that--but some of this stuff is explicitly stated out loud, word for word.

It's one of the most infuriating and generally baffling creative decisions in recent memory.

It is literally, explicitly a game whose core message is overtly--to the point where it is STATED OUT LOUD--that it is both important and necessary to a healthy relationship to treat your partner (here a woman) as an equal and respect their autonomy and ability to make decisions rather than engaging in some perverse notion of chivalry, or worship of her as a higher authority on a pedestal.

And then they dress the female characters like that.
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
Well, yeah, that's kind of my entire point. The character designs could be fully excused for just being what they are in a trashy, deliberately pandery JRPG that exists for that purpose. They could be mostly ignored, personally speaking, if they were in a rote, standard JRPG too. But in this case they actively run counter to the entire (rather nonstandard!) message of the game on a fundamental level. It's not just that they're pandering, they're pandering counter to the game's actual POINT. Like, you can argue the finer details of my read of the game pretty openly--like I said, death of the author and all that--but some of this stuff is explicitly stated out loud, word for word.

It's one of the most infuriating and generally baffling creative decisions in recent memory.

It is literally, explicitly a game whose core message is overtly--to the point where it is STATED OUT LOUD--that it is both important and necessary to a healthy relationship to treat your partner (here a woman) as an equal and respect their autonomy and ability to make decisions rather than engaging in some perverse notion of chivalry, or worship of her as a higher authority on a pedestal.

And then they dress the female characters like that.

I should have clarified more that my queries were more rhetorical and not presented at you. It seems we're on the same page throughout and you make a good point that the presentation of the blades is completely detrimental/self destructive to the story it's trying to tell.
 

Squidi

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
120
It is literally, explicitly a game whose core message is overtly--to the point where it is STATED OUT LOUD--that it is both important and necessary to a healthy relationship to treat your partner (here a woman) as an equal and respect their autonomy and ability to make decisions rather than engaging in some perverse notion of chivalry, or worship of her as a higher authority on a pedestal.

And then they dress the female characters like that.
So, what you are saying is that you think the theme of the game is admirable (to respect other people's autonomy)... but you want control over what they are allowed to wear?
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
I should have clarified more that my queries were more rhetorical and not presented at you. It seems we're on the same page throughout and you make a good point that the presentation of the blades is completely detrimental/self destructive to the story it's trying to tell.
Oh, yeah, I was just doubling down more than anything. It really annoys me.

So, what you are saying is that you think the theme of the game is admirable (to respect other people's autonomy)... but you want control over what they are allowed to wear?
Yeah. That's absolutely, definitely, exactly what I'm saying. I'm the true monster. You got me. Have a nice night. :)

EDIT, actually: Fictional characters designed by another human being are definitely real people like you or me and have just as much autonomy in the decisions they make, and I want to take it away!
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
When someone responded to me saying even based on her face she shouldn't be on the list, I had to laugh. I mean the number 1 character on the list 2b have half of her face covered through out almost the entirety of the game but no one was complaining she deoesn't deserve to be on the list.

Might have been me. And yes, I stand by that because Alloy even facially doesn't follow what I've seen to be the typical hyper-idealized beauty those sorts of rankings tend to gravitate towards. As such, yeah, I can see the surprise. Though it may not have been me since I didn't say she didn't belong unless that was inserted on your part.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
So, what you are saying is that you think the theme of the game is admirable (to respect other people's autonomy)... but you want control over what they are allowed to wear?

We're not just talking about costumes though. We're talking about camera angles that show cleavage and panty shots. We're talking about how designs run counter to their very personalities. We're talking about how the game talks about the toxicity of putting someone on a pedestal while the game's own mechanics try in do exactly that. The entirely of the game will sometimes run completely counter to the whole point of the theme of the game. That's the point.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
From my experience this is mostly Japanese games/developers that are guilty of this.
I'd say that it's more that Japanese developers are barely aware of what this issue is about, and coupled with the influence of otaku consumers, it leads towards more and more objectification. And this is happening across all Japanese entertainment where otaku tastes play a big role, be it books, manga, anime, and so on.

Here are characters that made me go ..'oh errrm.. why?'
FF15 - Cindy
MSGV - Quiet
Xenoblade 2 - Pyra (among others)
SF V - Laura (among some others)

I just don't understand this need to show gratuitous shots of women, when there are perfectly fine examples that exemplify their character and strength.
There are two main causes: the wish to have cute/sexy characters, and the lack of counter push from within Japan itself. Think of it this way, the (English) words "heroine" and "feminist" exist in Japan, but they have vastly different meanings than how we use them.

So, what you are saying is that you think the theme of the game is admirable (to respect other people's autonomy)... but you want control over what they are allowed to wear?
Game designers are allowed to design whatever the hell they want. However, everyone else is also free to criticize them over their designs. Which is exactly what's happening in this thread.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Boy oh boy it sure is great to see people continuing to argue in bad faith and somehow act like criticism and/or asking for change is a mortal sin.

Seriously though, what a poor, poor attempt at a 'gotcha'.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
I was talking about the designer, not the character.
The designer's entire job is to sell the character as... a character, a human being, a whole person, and dressing them in clothing that explicitly acts against that character's own sense of agency is exactly the opposite of doing their bloody job.

Basically, if you can ask the question "would this character, knowing their background and experiences and personality traits, actually come to the conclusion that the things they are wearing are appropriate for their sense of self and the situation they expect to find their self in?" and the answer is a resounding "Hell the FUCK no!", you've already failed.

I should note that the typical Japanese demure personality clashes heavily with most of the outfit designs such characters end up in. These traits are completely incompatible (and while people like Cosmicblizzard may appreciate that incompatibility, I continue to assert that continuously designing characters in such a way is terrible design).
 

Squidi

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
120
User was banned for 24 hours: Dismissing the opinions and concerns of other posters in this thread, despite the instructions in the OP to avoid doing that.
We're not just talking about costumes though. We're talking about camera angles that show cleavage and panty shots.
Maybe the camera angles show "cleavage and panty shots", but you are the one obsessing over them. I'm sure the camera angles also show faces, feet, shoulders, clavicles, knees, and possibly arm pits. You are the one projecting sexual desire on them. Cleavage is not innately sexual. It is only your sexual repression which makes anything forbidden into something arousing.

You make it dirty, not the camera. And I find that shameful because I don't make it dirty, and I find your behavior degrading to women when you reduce them to just a bunch of sexual parts, ignoring their personhood, and remove their agency by telling them how they should be allowed to dress.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Well, yeah, that's kind of my entire point. The character designs could be fully excused for just being what they are in a trashy, deliberately pandery JRPG that exists for that purpose. They could be mostly ignored, personally speaking, if they were in a rote, standard JRPG too. But in this case they actively run counter to the entire (rather nonstandard!) message of the game on a fundamental level. It's not just that they're pandering, they're pandering counter to the game's actual POINT. Like, you can argue the finer details of my read of the game pretty openly--like I said, death of the author and all that--but some of this stuff is explicitly stated out loud, word for word.

It's one of the most infuriating and generally baffling creative decisions in recent memory.

It is literally, explicitly a game whose core message is overtly--to the point where it is STATED OUT LOUD--that it is both important and necessary to a healthy relationship to treat your partner (here a woman) as an equal and respect their autonomy and ability to make decisions rather than engaging in some perverse notion of chivalry, or worship of her as a higher authority on a pedestal.

And then they dress the female characters like that.

Yeah, it's insane. There's something to be said about the fact that the Rare Blades were given to guest artists and most of them came up with...well...what they came up with on their own. It really speaks to how generic many of the Rare Blades look because of their objectification despite the idea that all of them were created by different people. It's just another puzzling aspect of this game.
 
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