Instead of acknowledging its just not targeted at straight men, they would frame it as social justice warrior pandering,
The same way that we saw people screaming that Gone Home had an SJW agenda.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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The same way that we saw people screaming that Gone Home had an SJW agenda.
I don't either. I do know there are some extreme sickos who are obsessed over the concept though. Usually they talk about purity but after about 5 minutes in a conversation with them (have I mentioned I hate family gatherings?) it's clear that it's just another form of control. The idea of having more sexual experience than your partner appeals to these insane people.
My Hero Academia has considerably worse problems with its treatment of female characters than how big their eyes are, even beyond the fanservice.
Mass Effect and Dragon Age are as close you'll get to that, for now. Assuming you play as a female character.
By the way, this is why I found Aloy so odd in Horizon. I get that she's younger, but that whole sexlessness of her through me off. And, it felt more about protecting her "innocence" than anything to do with her being too young for a relationship. Like, she's old enough to drive a spear through another human's head but she can't hit on another dude or girl?
The latest arc is actually probably the first time in the series where I feel like they had a female hero which is just straight badass which isn't super problematic in one way or the other. Which is a long time to go for one.
She turns into a dragon.
She turns into a dragon.
She's a social outcast with poor social skills that is all business. She had different things on her mind than romance.
Or she could be asexual and aromantic. *shrug* But I think it's more of her upbringing of why she is like that.
The Witcher 4 with Ciri main character or another character, just do it CD Red!
The evil assumption would be that consensual eroticisms are too far off for the recipients to serve as fantasies.
I don't know the game, but maybe it wasn't the time or place?
Tsuyu is irrelevant window dressing that mainly serves as Ochako's side-kick, despite the fact that Ochako doesn't do anything herself; the most characterization she ever had was in a 5 page side-story for Jump Giga.
The latest arc is actually probably the first time in the series where I feel like they had a female hero which is just straight badass which isn't super problematic in one way or the other. Which is a long time to go for one.
She turns into a dragon.
You mean the only pro-hero who didn't really do anything and got an off-screen fight alongside the rest of the female characters?
Has Mount Lady's character evolved or is she still an attention seeking celebrity wants closeups of an ass?
Mount Lady is mostly still the same character, but she had brief redeeming, if humorous, moment in certain major arc.
I mean compared to most heroines in the series it's kind of an improvement?
She had a pretty awesome moment.
She had a pretty awesome moment.
Someone else said this before, and it was shut down pretty soundly like this: Do characters really need to have a sex drive to be believable?
Not everyone wants to have sex. Or needs to.
Plus she had a lot on her mind!
Honestly its one of those things where if there was better more robust representation it wouldn't even be a conversation. Characters like Aloy are still...unusual enough that a lot of intention, for better or for worse, is read into their creative decisions.
This lmao, hated that arc for a lot of reasons, but I'm seriously baffled as to how someone that could turn into a freaking dragon managed to get wasted.
Out of all the manga currently being published in Jump, I'd say that The Promised Neverland is the one that truly deserves to be commended for its treatment of female characters. But it's also not really like anything else published in the magazine in many different ways.
Is it more off putting to see a female lead character without sex drive?
I feel like we have lots of open world, male protag games without that content. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Also it's not like sex is well-explored even in male-protagonist driven games.
They're either treated as a dumb side "Yo you can bone chicks" or as relationships with fairly... "childish" notions of love?
Like very few games treats sex and love in a complex way.
They're either treated as a dumb side "Yo you can bone chicks" or as relationships with fairly... "childish" notions of love?
Like very few games treats sex and love in a complex way.
Any good female representation in shounen manga is pretty rare tbh.
Yeah it seems undeniable that it's just because we so rarely have not-shitty representations of women that when it finally happens, people are quick to identify things they don't like. Not to say a woman protagonist with a sex drive is inherently a bad thing to want. But... if we had a lot of believable women, instead of a few, this wouldn't stand out so much, maybe?
Also not to say Aloy is perfect. I'm sure people smarter than me could point out ways she's not. But she seems pretty good, at the very least.
Also, I'm actually struggling to think of any open-world male characters that didn't at the very least express some romantic interest, even if sex was never explicitly on the table.
Emma and the main antagonists are amazing. Need to catch up on this actually. Hope it get's a (good) anime soon so more people can see its greatness.
Sex and relationships are a pretty big part of human experience so its absence feels odd. I mean even Link has romantic interests. In fact, it's rare to find any male protagonist that has no sexual interests, especially in open world games. Thus, Aloy further sticks out as an oddity.
I'll also point out another "problem" I had sometimes with Horizon. And, I should stress sometimes, as it's not always the case. But, when it happens it pulls you right out of the world. Basically, at times certain characters are written as if they have a 2017 mindset as opposed to someone living in the world of Horizon: Zero Dawn, as if the writers feel certain themes weren't "subtle" enough. In this case, I'm referring specifically to the role of women in the world of Horizon. It can best be explained by using an example, this one occurring in the recent DLC Frozen Wild. This isn't any plot spoilers so I won't place it in tags:
When you get to the new area of Frozen Wilds you meet a black Oseram merchant. Aloy begins to converse with him and he sees she's got a pretty strong will. He tells her that she would likely get along with his daughter and states that they are both...but struggles to find the word. Aloy interjects with a dry, "women." At which point the Oseram merchant throws his hands up in the air, as if to signal innocence and no insult intended, stressing that he meant to say "independent" or "strong headed" or whatever. And, Aloy seems satisfied enough.
Now, why does a scene like that bother me? Well, it's like I said, it has no place and makes no sense in the world of Horizon. Zero Dawn doesn't take place in 2017, it doesn't have the same societal issues and divisions that we have including sexism and racism. It has its own divisions, unique to its world and hearkening back to our more ancient times with added twists. Divisions in Zero Dawn are focused more on tribalism and religion. Additionally, it has twists as I mentioned as women do not occupy the role they were relegated to in most ancient societies (child birth and rearing). Rather, women are treated as equals in the world of Horizon. In fact, certain tribes have women as the centers of power. Aloy's tribe, the Nora, are a matriarchal tribe with the elderly priestess' ruling over the rest. They even worship the All Mother and live within Mother's Embrace. Again, if things weren't subtle enough. But, this placing of women often at the top of power is not unique to the Nora. In fact, I don't know of any tribe in Horizon where women are treated as lesser or not occupying a position of power. The Oseram had a powerful, prominent female leader that became an important figure in the Sun King Avad's new reign. Thus, showing that not only do the Oseram respect women, and female warriors at that, but so do the Carja. Lastly, the Banuk also have female warriors and females in high positions of power including the most senior Shaman who shares power with the Chief.
Thus, that Oseram merchant's little interaction with Aloy makes no sense given the context of the world he lives in. Why would he fear offending another female for being strong? That's the norm even in his tribe. As a result, the scene and others like it, stick out like a sore thumb because the writers stepped outside the fiction of their wold to hammer home a point that is already apparent, women are just as capable in this world as men.
The Carja. They scoff at the idea of female priests.
As for your other point about the Oseram, I see what you mean, but you have to remember that even in mostly gender-equal societies, sexism still exists. If anything, I think it's great that in Horizon, they created societies that have reached a very high level of gender quality, but that there's no "utopia" where no sexism happens anymore, because that would honestly be less believable.
As someone who has been largely successful AND incredibly to not have suffered too much from sexism in male-dominated fields, I can say that I actually appreciate that scene, because "everyday sexism" is still, unfortunately, a thing, for millions of women, and I don't see that disappearing even in the far future.
I agree, but I feel that given the way most women are depicted in that world the scene felt off. I felt like the game could have tackled that subject a bit more head on. I would've appreciated an even wider gulf between the cultures of each tribe. Perhaps the Carja or Oseram are much less accepting of women in general and laugh at the Nora for being ruled over by women. And, vice versa. But, as it stands, the interaction with that Oseram merchant feels out of place. It's like a character being afraid of being seen as a racist in that world, all of a sudden and out of nowhere. When we know that racism, at least our definition of racism, doesn't exist in Zero Dawn. "Racism" in Zero Dawn is based around tribe, ie all Nora are stupid savages. It's just weird and feels like tip toeing around a subject rather than addressing it.
Lol no. Urakura basically came into get own saving as many pro heroes as possible.
There is a moment during their version of the athletic festival where they dress up as cheerleaders which is a two panel throw away scene.
Hero academia, even with fan service, is doing it's women right.
It would either be Promised Neverland or World Trigger when it comes to best treatment of female characters.
I'll say it again, there's a time and place for everything, and a violent environment isn't for romance. as far as I know, Aloy is on a revenge quest.
If anything, maybe other games should get questioned more for their particular writing.
Oh I forgot, Carja women cannot be soldiers either. You just reminded me of that side-quest with Janeva, a Carja guard whose gender is left ambiguous (see the very bottom of my post, here).
That said it's true that the Oseram don't seem particularly patriarchal, but I didn't have a problem with the merchant's lines, because as I said, everyday sexism is still gonna be a thing in the year 3000+, we all know it. xD
That said it's true that the Oseram don't seem particularly patriarchal, but I didn't have a problem with the merchant's lines, because as I said, everyday sexism is still gonna be a thing in the year 3000+, we all know it. xD
How is a violent enviornment not the time for romance? In fact, it would seem more important given the heightened emotional state someone would be in. Further, I'd argue there are few places where romance and sex would be out of place. Violence and sex is the bedrock of human civilization.
I... completely disagree. Uraraka is the closest thing to a primary female protag we have in the series and even she gets sidelined for significant chunks of the manga in favor of the big three students (who, by the way, are all male).
That's not even mentioning how lopsided the quirk distribution is in Class 1-A.
While Emma and the female characters of TPN are great, there's other manga which are also really good. Most of the female characters on Gintama are pretty great in that regard, just like in Saiki Kusuo no Psi Nan, Haikyuu and Kimetsu no Yaiba, for example.
Perhaps a woman on a mission deliberately avoids sex so as to avoid the inconvenience of a potential pregnancy. I haven't played Horizon. How much do they discuss birth control?
I said they were LESS reserved, not that they were butt fucking rodeo clowns on top of children. In many ways, they are more uptight than Americans. However, when it comes to breasts, especially in their media, they are not.
Dude, it is so ubiquitous that there is an NPC handing out naughty tissue packs in front of the train station in Tokyo Xanadu. He even refuses to give it to the main character because he is too young. This is a recent game intended for teenagers.
You literally quoted me saying that I lived there for six months. At least try to at least make it to the fourth sentence before rushing to hit that reply button.
I lived in Japan 17 years ago, pre-Moe and the rise of otaku culture. There was otaku stuff there, but it wasn't anything like it is today. It certainly wasn't enthusiast media bleeding into the mainstream as technology changes. While I lived there, DVDs were the hot new thing thanks to the release of the PS2. And yet at the local Deo-Deo (roughly equivalent to a Best Buy, but with an annoying theme song) you could find porn video cds sitting on the shelf literally next to Microsoft Word.
It's good that you put it this way, because it was 17 years ago and I was worried that they might have gotten a little more uptight in the intervening years, but you seem to be arguing that it is worse now than ever.
This was true 17 years ago as well, but I wasn't arguing that every woman over there is dressed as a stripper. I was saying that nudity, especially in places where it is deemed acceptable or expected, is less of a problem there. You'd never find a mixed bathing hot spring in the US - ever. At my local grocery store, they put blinders in front of magazines that show any sort of skin - like Runner's World where the cover model is in a sports bra. In Japan, the entire PC gaming magazine section was basically just hentai games, open and available where anyone could browse through it. It wasn't even on a shelf where children couldn't reach it.
Dude, I watched the entirety of Showgirls on broadcast television in Japan. They blurred out the crotches, but there were boobies everywhere. On Saturday nights, there was this news program/talk show which had a credit sequence that was literally a bunch of female butts in thongs dancing to music. At the end of the credits, one of the thongs would break and pop off, showing bare ass. The show itself often had bare breasts in it as well. It was obviously a show intended for adults, but I didn't have cable. I was a college student. It was broadcast tv. The only way you can get bare breasts on broadcast tv in the US is I, Claudius reruns on PBS.
Dead of fucking winter, like 10 degrees outside, snow falling, and the school girls are still wearing skirts that don't reach their knees. They might wear thigh highs with their miniskirts too. Japan is the only place that I know of that has a name for the patch of thigh between the thigh high and the skirt. I'm convinced that these outfits are very formative in Japan's obsession with panty shots. Once the girls get into college though, the dresses reach down past their ankles.
I said that cultural nudity was more accepted, not porn. There's a difference between communal bathing and shotacon porn. You guys' problem is that you seem to think that anything flesh colored is porn, regardless of context or intent. It's like you think taking a shower is porn. So I guess it is only natural that you would think cleavage is porn too.
But for the record, since you brought it up, Japan is a porn bastion. Seriously. They release over 4,000 adult videos a month and have something like 10,000 porn actresses (only 70 male ones though). I remember reading somewhere that something like 1 in 100 girls in Tokyo of a specific age range have appeared in porn. Now, you can argue a lot of things about Japan, but I don't think you can doubt their porn.
Welp, here I go :P
That's exactly what I said, though? I conceded that these magazines are rather visible. You're missing the point, and that is that nudity (especially female nudity) is not okay in Japan. Real women, who live in Japan, have to avoid showing let alone cleavage, but even their shoulders according to two friends of mine. Limiting nudity to bathing and porny magazines is actually rather prudish IMHO.
I mean, of course to the bolded. I'm talking about mainstream Japanese media! Because raunchy TV will be raunchy in Japan and basically anywhere :P It hardly proves any point.
These are not "fanservice outfits", this is Japanese women wearing short skirts/shorts because they like them. And you'll see that people generally don't have a problem with characters wearing short skirts/pants, that's only one element that can lead to stupid camera angles or animations. BTW this happens in my city (Toluca, Mexico) too - women wearing revealing clothes (actual cleavage and shoulders, go figure!) even if it's 10° outside because, well, Toluca is not exactly a hot city so they don't have many chances to wear spring-y clothes.
Well, that's rather contradictory :P Anyway, I disagree about Japan accepting cultural nudity. Especially since you're separating that statement from porn.
So, um, I might be obsessed with Xenoblade Chronicles 2...that thread I was thinking about making? I'm like on page 10 right now. I might have a problem...
Also, to make this bump actually topical...
The new ARMS character. I'll admit to not wearing heels too often but I'm like 99% sure that would not be good fighting shoes...
Also, to make this bump actually topical...
The new ARMS character. I'll admit to not wearing heels too often but I'm like 99% sure that would not be good fighting shoes...
If you're an adult and think school girl's legs are "fanservicey" then you're the one who has issues.
Some of my gal pals are serving in the military and none of them are interested at exploring sexuality and relationships when they're out training in the field lol. I don't think anyone in that environment would be privy to that.
True. Aloy isn't military though. She's just an adventurer on a journey. She takes the time to help people and make bonds with some NPCs, it wouldn't be that much out of place if she had hook-ups, lol.
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