Shenmue 3 reveals new character and Lakshya Digital collaboration

GhostTrick said:

Nah it looks worse. In fact the original CGI looked better in term of art, shading and details.
The new ones look soooo plastic.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I know some this is going to be down to personal taste influencing your opinion, but let's look at the plastic comment.

The skin texture on the CG art for example, is actually more "plastic" looking (i.e, overly pristine is what I imagine you mean really) than the in-game model from the latest update. There are features on the new model like the small mole near her chin, what looks like very light freckles on the character's cheeks, as well as variation in pigmentation that's easily observable in the shadowed parts of the character's face (darkening the image also shows it up on the light side, so it's definitely there).

The CG model doesn't really have any of those details, or at the very least not to the sophistication of the new model; which is understandable considering the jump forward in technology.

But it's still a comparison where the new model obviously wins out because of this jump forward. It's not subjective. The evidence is literally right in front of us. I'm not trying to be standoffish about this, but you're starting to pass from criticism to bending the truth.

bell wood's jet cola said:

Does anyone know why there's a Japanese miko in a Chinese temple? I mean I know this is a series where the Japanese protagonist can magically communicate with everyone in China after we clearly learn he knows no Chinese in the first game, so it's not the biggest leap, but it's still kind of funny.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Wouldn't be the first time Ryo found a Japanese native in China. There were at least two in Hong Kong, and Yu said Choubu would be an area popular with travellers. The character might be giving service while on a pilgrimage?

Encephalon said:

2016 looks better than 2017 to me, here.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The jacket in 2016 version is a more representative colour, but everything else is worse (artistically and technically). It's worth noting that there's a real lack of expression going on here in the faces any of those models. The newest promotional render of the Ryo model looks more convincing and is likely more reflective of what they're working towards.

GhostTrick said:

Nah it looks worse. In fact the original CGI looked better in term of art, shading and details.
The new ones look soooo plastic.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

They're still working on things like skin and clothing shaders and the detail will come in time and with further showings. I really don't think this is a final piece of work by any means. Lakshya is doing the heavy lifting for additional characters and I'm sure YS Net and Neilo can also import and touch up these models as they see fit. Just look at the Ryo render above.

GhostTrick said:

Very close ???
They look like two different characters and that's the design I'm criticizing which looks nothing like the og artworks.

In fact, I'll dare to say it:
Her older CGI model looks miles better than the latest one, in every ways. From the design to the tech. 17 years difference and the 2000 one looks better.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I would take Shenmue 3 with Dreamcast graphics over this cartoony plastic look they're going for.

Iwao said:

The jacket in 2016 version is a more representative colour, but everything else is worse (artistically and technically). It's worth noting that there's a real lack of expression going on here in the faces any of those models. The newest promotional render of the Ryo model looks more convincing and is likely more reflective of what they're working towards.

They're still working on things like skin and clothing shaders and the detail will come in time and with further showings. I really don't think this is a final piece of work by any means. Lakshya is doing the heavy lifting for additional characters and I'm sure YS Net and Neilo can also import and touch up these models as they see fit. Just look at the Ryo render above.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I hope so. The modelisation isnt at fault here. What Shenmue 3 needs the most is a good shader use and decent animations.

In my eyes this thread is pretty toxic. It's like 95% criticism about everything they show....
Shenmue 3 happening is ALL I need. Shenmue was never about how good it looked, it was about the story, the characters, relationships and life itself. It clearly shows how so many of you were not there back in 99'.
If you're looking for something AAA, please go look somewhere else.

Segafreak said:

I would take Shenmue 3 with Dreamcast graphics over this cartoony plastic look they're going for.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The "cartoony plastic look" if you want to call it that, is a work in progress as they continue to work on shaders, and find a balance between the original art style from 2 generations ago, and one that compliments a modern game release on a modern platform with - according to some - "AAA expectations". The fact that they're showing off such early, work in progress is both good and bad. It's good because we can see the clear progress being made, but bad because some people become more concerned and panicked with what is non-final than others.

krg said:

In my eyes this thread is pretty toxic. It's like 95% criticism about everything they show....
Shenmue 3 happening is ALL I need. Shenmue was never about how good it looked, it was about the story, the characters, relationships and life itself. It clearly shows how so many of you were not there back in 99'.
If you're looking for something AAA, please go look somewhere else.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I agree with you on the toxicity surrounding this game. Personally, I think the Shenmue 3 looks fine, but I'd argue that one of the biggest draws of the first two games were their graphics.
Shenmue was the most technically impressive game we'd ever seen at that point in time. It prided itself on the extremely mundane details of its world: Coffee mugs, cassette tapes, convenience store items, and being able to zoom in and pore over said items. Shenmue definitely wasn't completely about graphics, but the visuals are a huge part of what made it so immersive and realistic at the time.

Spaghetti said:

I know some this is going to be down to personal taste influencing your opinion, but let's look at the plastic comment.

The skin texture on the CG art for example, is actually more "plastic" looking (i.e, overly pristine is what I imagine you mean really) than the in-game model from the latest update. There are features on the new model like the small mole near her chin, what looks like very light freckles on the character's cheeks, as well as variation in pigmentation that's easily observable in the shadowed parts of the character's face (darkening the image also shows it up on the light side, so it's definitely there).

The CG model doesn't really have any of those details, or at the very least not to the sophistication of the new model; which is understandable considering the jump forward in technology.

But it's still a comparison where the new model obviously wins out because of this jump forward. It's not subjective. The evidence is literally right in front of us. I'm not trying to be standoffish about this, but you're starting to pass from criticism to bending the truth.


Wouldn't be the first time Ryo found a Japanese native in China. There were at least two in Hong Kong, and Yu said Choubu would be an area popular with travellers. The character might be giving service while on a pilgrimage?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

No it's not about beinf pristine or more detailed (you cite the mole as an exemple). It's about the skin being shiny and doll looking. In every ways, the new CGI is inferior. The lighting is unnatural on the character and comes as cheap, the design looks like a mix betweeb realistic and anime which means the character has realistic proportions but big anime shiny eyes (whereas Nozomi in CGI had more realistic facial features and lighting).

It's not cost related again, it's art related. The art direction for these CGI renders is just bad, sorry, and it looks nothing like Shenmue. Of course, I'm aware it's a work in progress and I'm hopeful these will be fixed. But I also have to be honest with myself, these doesnt look good in term of art and shader work. On the modelisation side though, while they dont look amazing, these are clean and well madew and its all I was expecting for Shenmue 3.

What's the story behind the longevity of Ryo's band-aid? It's too small to hide a cut that can't have healed by act III.

Ecotic said:

What's the story behind the longevity of Ryo's band-aid? It's too small to hide a cut that can't have healed by act III.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Dunno, but Lan Di has a cut in the exact same spot and it took forever for me to notice.

krg said:

In my eyes this thread is pretty toxic. It's like 95% criticism about everything they show....
Shenmue 3 happening is ALL I need. Shenmue was never about how good it looked, it was about the story, the characters, relationships and life itself. It clearly shows how so many of you were not there back in 99'.
If you're looking for something AAA, please go look somewhere else.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

For it's time, Shenmue was pretty high up there with its production values. Saying it was never about how good it looked is a bit disingenuous. It was AAA back then. I understand they don't have the same budget anymore, but it looks stuck in 1999. Even with a low budget, it's a bit sad this is what they have to show.

TitanicFall said:

For it's time, Shenmue was pretty high up there with its production values. Saying it was never about how good it looked is a bit disingenuous. It was AAA back then. I understand they don't have the same budget anymore, but it looks stuck in 1999. Even with a low budget, it's a bit sad this is what they have to show.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

There are plenty of non-AAA games in recent times that have really great production values and character models etc. It's not really sad at all. What was innovative and expensive back when Shenmue was being produced is taken for granted now and freely available through middleware such as Unreal Engine. So in that sense, the production values that a current-gen Shenmue "needs" doesn't really scale in relation to other games that are considered AAA these days and doesn't need to compete in a war of pushing pixels to impress either. They need best strike a balance, not to go all out with modern-day AAA production value. They need to be smart and conservative if a Shenmue IV is to see the light of day, and I think they are.

The only area where Shenmue III is likely to be stuck in '99 is in game design. Still... Yu has said to be bringing to the series various things that are new in terms of gameplay. I suspect it will control and animate like a modern action-adventure game. Another thing to note is that Yu's idea of an open-world is not the same as people might be thinking with GTA or Sleeping Dogs. The man doesn't take too much inspiration from other games (he's said this in the past) and that's much of what makes his vision really pure and innovative. (Not saying Shenmue III will be innovative, just that is how Yu seems to approach game design).

I'd happily take any of the models they've shown even the Shenhua one it is acceptable for me. Any fan would not mind the current Ryo model (of course its not practical for this model to go on board) but for a fan there should not even be a single complaint. Feedback is fine but actual negativity and complaining comes from the public that do not care about this game, not the fans.

Iwao said:

There are plenty of non-AAA games in recent times that have really great production values and character models etc. It's not really sad at all. What was innovative and expensive back when Shenmue was being produced is taken for granted now and freely available through middleware such as Unreal Engine. So in that sense, the production values that a current-gen Shenmue "needs" doesn't really scale in relation to other games that are considered AAA these days and doesn't need to compete in a war of pushing pixels to impress either. They need best strike a balance, not to go all out with modern-day AAA production value. They need to be smart and conservative if a Shenmue IV is to see the light of day, and I think they are.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

My expectations, at least graphically, is something like the PS3 Yakuza games. I wonder what the budget was for those.

GhostTrick said:

No it's not about beinf pristine or more detailed (you cite the mole as an exemple). It's about the skin being shiny and doll looking. In every ways, the new CGI is inferior. The lighting is unnatural on the character and comes as cheap, the design looks like a mix betweeb realistic and anime which means the character has realistic proportions but big anime shiny eyes (whereas Nozomi in CGI had more realistic facial features and lighting).

It's not cost related again, it's art related. The art direction for these CGI renders is just bad, sorry, and it looks nothing like Shenmue. Of course, I'm aware it's a work in progress and I'm hopeful these will be fixed. But I also have to be honest with myself, these doesnt look good in term of art and shader work. On the modelisation side though, while they dont look amazing, these are clean and well madew and its all I was expecting for Shenmue 3.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I think you're moving the goalposts by saying the plastic comment is about the skin being "shiny". Plastic is usually defined by it's matte and featureless texture, which is how the skin looks on the CG model.

But fine, let's address the "shiny" comment. The CG model was almost certainly not created with consideration for physically based rendering. UE4 and therefore Shenmue III utilises physically based rendering techniques. Skin, when healthy and hydrated, reflects light; causing a glow. What you are calling "shiny", is how real skin is supposed to react when exposed to a light source.

There are no characteristics of real skin or how it properly reacts to light on the CG model, where there are on the new in-game model because of being able to use physically based rendering techniques, and applying greater detail in the textures.

More realistic skin, more realistic lighting. Again, it's not an opinion. It's how modern imaging technology is allowing materials and light to react closer to their real-world counterparts.

And as for the "big shiny anime eyes":





In-game model, passport model, CG render. Three different characters in the series. If the new model has "big shiny anime eyes", then so do these, because the difference is almost indiscernible.

"It looks nothing like Shenmue", my ass.

TitanicFall said:

My expectations, at least graphically, is something like the PS3 Yakuza games. I wonder what the budget was for those.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I thought I read somewhere that Yakuza games are relatively cheap to produce due to reusing assets. They build the initial engine then build on top of the pre-existing foundation in sequels (Kamurocho becoming denser, new cities,etc). Production values are most likely expensive initially then become much cheaper with subsequent games. A big chunk of the budget probably goes towards voice acting.

People seem to be ignoring, on purpose or not, the fact what they see is a work in progress. They're used to the first reveal of a game being the big flashy trailer not the warts and all putting everything together you're seeing with this. But because it's a Kickstarter they can't have the secrets and smoke and mirrors most other games have before release.

If every game had progress reports nobody would ever be happy about a game ever again.

For some reason this game has had a lot of false narrative around it as well. You still have people thinking Sony pulled a fast one and should be funding it. Even though they have nothing to do with the IP. Another forum I use had knee jerk reactions thinking this game would set a dangerous precedent and every publisher would use Kickstarter to fund their games because this one got the money.

Spaghetti said:

I think you're moving the goalposts by saying the plastic comment is about the skin being "shiny". Plastic is usually defined by it's matte and featureless texture, which is how the skin looks on the CG model.

But fine, let's address the "shiny" comment. The CG model was almost certainly not created with consideration for physically based rendering. UE4 and therefore Shenmue III utilises physically based rendering techniques. Skin, when healthy and hydrated, reflects light; causing a glow. What you are calling "shiny", is how real skin is supposed to react when exposed to a light source.

There are no characteristics of real skin or how it properly reacts to light on the CG model, where there are on the new in-game model because of being able to use physically based rendering techniques, and applying greater detail in the textures.

More realistic skin, more realistic lighting. Again, it's not an opinion. It's how modern imaging technology is allowing materials and light to react closer to their real-world counterparts.

And as for the "big shiny anime eyes":

In-game model, passport model, CG render. Three different characters in the series. If the new model has "big shiny anime eyes", then so do these, because the difference is almost indiscernible.

"It looks nothing like Shenmue", my ass.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I completely agree this. The new Lakshya character model (I wish we knew her name) has eyes that are equally as shiny, big and reflective as both the passport model and CGI render. Nothing else in that model looks shiny, except maybe way that light bounces off her hair.

Dr. Octagon said:

I thought I read somewhere that Yakuza games are relatively cheap to produce due to reusing assets. They build the initial engine then build on top of the pre-existing foundation in sequels (Kamurocho becoming denser, new cities,etc). Production values are most likely expensive initially then become much cheaper with subsequent games. A big chunk of the budget probably goes towards voice acting.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I think most of this is true for the Yakuza games in the past. Yakuza 6 was a new milestone for the series in that it is built on the brand new Dragon Engine, which they'll be using going forward and is already being used in Yakuza Kiwami 2.

Magoo said:

If every game had progress reports nobody would ever be happy about a game ever again.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You're right about that. Those who complain about WIP are never going to be happy. If they'd completely waited to show progress just a year before release, there would have been much less of the concern being thrown around about how it actually looks, but more people defining the project as "vapourware" and a much bigger commentary surrounding the budget and not understanding how a sequel it could be made on the known budget, due to them being blind to how the project is progressing. Folks would also be talking about how they feel the game would flop because it's would be gaining no share or traction in the consciousness of the gaming community. In reality Shenmue III needed these progress reports, so it's a double-edged sword for them.

Sir Guts said:

The jump is from 2015 to 2017 but I believe more enhancement will happen in 2018

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Nice catch. The pic labeled as "2016" was posted as part of the lighting tests in October 2015 here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ysnet/shenmue-3/posts/1398446

They avoided showing Ryo's face in 2016, except at the end of the year when they photoshopped it into one of the pics from December and someone found the exact image they copied it from. The 2017 is so much better than 2015, in that it actually looks like the Ryo again. And they fixed the color of his coat too, despite someone arguing back and forth with me on Shenmue Dojo claiming it wasn't wrong and the old color "was just because they baked in lighting" even after I linked to the photo of the original coat that Masaya Matsukaze wore to promote the game which is what the in-game one was modeled after. 2017 is still not a perfect match, and they added seams that the original didn't have, but it's still close enough that without doing a side-by-side it's convincing enough to be "the same" to me.

My standards for the models are a little bit lower than some people here. My ideal outcome is that if I look at it and pretend I didn't know anything about the existence of Shenmue 3, I could instantly recognize it as being Shenmue. The 2015 model did not have that quality at all, but they've reached that point with Ryo's model now in several images. Any further improvements are welcome, but I'm not disappointed with where they are now at least in still images. As far as Shenhua goes, she started off great and got somewhat less recognizable, but they still have time to improve that. I'm looking forward to seeing the other returning characters.

Sappharad said:

2017 is still not a perfect match, and they added seams that the original didn't have, but it's still close enough that without doing a side-by-side it's convincing enough to be "the same" to me.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

About side by side ...

Modi said:

About side by side ...

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

This is the best basis for comparison so far.

Obviously the one on the left is lower resolution, but I think compared to it, the one on the right looks a bit too glossy and lacking some of the finer detail and grit, especially in Ryo's face (I imagine that will improve when they apply shaders). Or... maybe I'm just glamourising the art style of the original a bit too much there. Also the colours of the jacket and jeans are definitely a bit off, and his hair isn't quite a slicked and spiked back as in the original.

Either way, they're doing a really good job with Ryo so far.

Why is it so hard for them to just match the color of the jacket?

Maligna said:

Why is it so hard for them to just match the color of the jacket?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Real time lighting most likely affects the colors of Ryo's jacket, and matching it with the harsh hue of the original might look garish in these different lighting conditions. The original also carried a harsher color tone since the texture had to appear "lit" and "shadowed" already. Also, that screen is from a magazine scan, adding a red hue to the jacket. Here is a direct screen that is more honest to the in-game color:

I'll give them some more time but I don't think the L-Digital has wow me yet.

Still, Ryo's jacket being a darker shade of brown is seared into my memory of this series since I spent so many hours staring at his back.

If they don't match the jacket I'm afraid my brain won't accept this as a continuation of Shenmue. Haha.

GhostTrick said:

Eh... :/
Still that weird 2000 era cheap cgi look :/

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I like it, gives a certain charm to the game.

Spaghetti said:

I think you're moving the goalposts by saying the plastic comment is about the skin being "shiny". Plastic is usually defined by it's matte and featureless texture, which is how the skin looks on the CG model.

But fine, let's address the "shiny" comment. The CG model was almost certainly not created with consideration for physically based rendering. UE4 and therefore Shenmue III utilises physically based rendering techniques. Skin, when healthy and hydrated, reflects light; causing a glow. What you are calling "shiny", is how real skin is supposed to react when exposed to a light source.

There are no characteristics of real skin or how it properly reacts to light on the CG model, where there are on the new in-game model because of being able to use physically based rendering techniques, and applying greater detail in the textures.

More realistic skin, more realistic lighting. Again, it's not an opinion. It's how modern imaging technology is allowing materials and light to react closer to their real-world counterparts.

And as for the "big shiny anime eyes":

In-game model, passport model, CG render. Three different characters in the series. If the new model has "big shiny anime eyes", then so do these, because the difference is almost indiscernible.

"It looks nothing like Shenmue", my ass.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Moving goalpost ? Nah, you just conveniently apply your own definition of "plastic". When people say plastic about something, it's often to highlight a shiny aspect. But if you want to play on words, right, let's say I used the wrong word with plastic. In the end my point was still how everything looks shiny/glossy.

And yes, big anime eyes. All the pictures you linked were aiming for realistic eyes. This looks nothing like that new render which clearly is aiming for anime eyes.

As for the lighting being at cause, I think it's wrong. No, lighting don't make the skin look like wax or bad early cgi from 2000 era. Or at least, not this way. It looks like actual skin with modern rendering. But this ? Nah, sorry.

And yes, as for looking like nothing like Shenmue, you proved it yourself with the cgi render you posted for the characters. Just compare the Shenmue Shenhua cgi renders with the Shenhua ones from Shenmue 3.

I know the budget for Shenmue 3 isn't big enough to make something as grand and high tech as one could dream about. So I'm quite happy with what they are showing so far :) Please let the story and gameplay be ok :)

GhostTrick said:

Moving goalpost ? Nah, you just conveniently apply your own definition of "plastic". When people say plastic about something, it's often to highlight a shiny aspect. But if you want to play on words, right, let's say I used the wrong word with plastic. In the end my point was still how everything looks shiny/glossy.

And yes, big anime eyes. All the pictures you linked were aiming for realistic eyes. This looks nothing like that new render which clearly is aiming for anime eyes.

As for the lighting being at cause, I think it's wrong. No, lighting don't make the skin look like wax or bad early cgi from 2000 era. Or at least, not this way. It looks like actual skin with modern rendering. But this ? Nah, sorry.

And yes, as for looking like nothing like Shenmue, you proved it yourself with the cgi render you posted for the characters. Just compare the Shenmue Shenhua cgi renders with the Shenhua ones from Shenmue 3.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Dude, you're being way overly picky here. If THAT looks too "plasticy" for you, then 95% of all character models must look like toys to you. It certainly doesn't stray very far from the average quality of character model+lighting+surfaces in the average game this gen:

GhostTrick said:

Moving goalpost ? Nah, you just conveniently apply your own definition of "plastic". When people say plastic about something, it's often to highlight a shiny aspect. But if you want to play on words, right, let's say I used the wrong word with plastic. In the end my point was still how everything looks shiny/glossy.

And yes, big anime eyes. All the pictures you linked were aiming for realistic eyes. This looks nothing like that new render which clearly is aiming for anime eyes.

As for the lighting being at cause, I think it's wrong. No, lighting don't make the skin look like wax or bad early cgi from 2000 era. Or at least, not this way. It looks like actual skin with modern rendering. But this ? Nah, sorry.

And yes, as for looking like nothing like Shenmue, you proved it yourself with the cgi render you posted for the characters. Just compare the Shenmue Shenhua cgi renders with the Shenhua ones from Shenmue 3.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You're reaching very hard for reasons to justify not liking the art direction's development so far. And again, there's nothing wrong with just saying you don't like it and walking away, but you keep pushing this idea that it's the team's fault for not catering to your tastes or what you imagined Shenmue III would look like.

Most of your argument is based in falsehoods (shaders), wilful ignorance of what the team has said (Yu Suzuki specifically singled out Shenhua in an interview as needing a lot more work), or stubbornly pushing a subjective opinion as fact (stating old CG renders being better in every respect when the advancement of realistic technology makes that definitively wrong).

Like if you can't even see obvious stylisation in those eyes in the images I posted, then I don't know what to tell you.

PeakPointMatrix said:

Dude, you're being way overly picky here. If THAT looks too "plasticy" for you, then 95% of all character models must look like toys to you. It certainly doesn't stray very far from the average quality of character model+lighting+surfaces in the average game this gen:

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The first two game you quoted are aiming for an anime artstyle (even a cartoonish one in the case of SFV). And even then NieR Automata doesn't come as shiny when it comes to the eyes for exemple. (On top of that, you took terrible quality screenshots). As for MGSV, it's pretty much highlighting my point:


The way light shine on the skin is a lot more subtle. And for the eyes, it's not even a context.

Spaghetti said:

You're reaching very hard for reasons to justify not liking the art direction's development so far. And again, there's nothing wrong with just saying you don't like it and walking away, but you keep pushing this idea that it's the team's fault for not catering to your tastes or what you imagined Shenmue III would look like.

Most of your argument is based in falsehoods (shaders), wilful ignorance of what the team has said (Yu Suzuki specifically singled out Shenhua in an interview as needing a lot more work), or stubbornly pushing a subjective opinion as fact (stating old CG renders being better in every respect when the advancement of realistic technology makes that definitively wrong).

Like if you can't even see obvious stylisation in those eyes in the images I posted, then I don't know what to tell you.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The only obvious stylisation is in the new renders; not the old ones which were aiming for more realistic proportions.
It's not even about my tastes, since you keep saying and even Yu Suzuki keeps saying "this is a work in progress, we need to change that". If it wasn't a problem, nothing would need to be changed, right ?
And yes, I stand by what I said, the old CG renders looks better despite older tech, which is pretty much telling how bad this one looks.

GhostTrick said:

The only obvious stylisation is in the new renders; not the old ones which were aiming for more realistic proportions.
It's not even about my tastes, since you keep saying and even Yu Suzuki keeps saying "this is a work in progress, we need to change that". If it wasn't a problem, nothing would need to be changed, right ?
And yes, I stand by what I said, the old CG renders looks better despite older tech, which is pretty much telling how bad this one looks.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Man, this argument is going to go on forever, because we are not going to agree on anything.

And it is about your tastes. Like your first comment in this thread was commenting on how much you didn't like the model looking like early 2000s CG, now you're pivoting to saying they should have made it look like... early 2000s CG; complete with the caveats of the limits on technology then. You're contorting yourself into knots over this.

In the very post I'm quoting now you posted a picture of a more realistically styled character, as an example of where you want the art direction to go. That's a face-captured actress, in a AAA game.

If you don't want to admit to yourself that's what you wanted for Shenmue III, fine. But this constant insistence on talking down the team's work and denying a very obvious lineage between the old art and the new, is bullshit.

I am a backer and I would be content if they essentially made this game for the Dreamcast and ran it at modern resolutions. PS2/Wii games still look great on emulators.

The new screenshots look pretty good, I am not expecting a AAA game.

I just want Shenmue 3, when it's ready.

And Shenmue 1+2 HD about 6 months before. Thanks Sega.

Spaghetti said:

Man, this argument is going to go on forever, because we are not going to agree on anything.

And it is about your tastes. Like your first comment in this thread was commenting on how much you thought the model looked like early 2000s CG, now you're pivoting to saying they should have made it look like... early 2000s CG; complete with the caveats of the limits on technology then. You're contorting yourself into knots over this.

In the very post I'm quoting now you posted a picture of a more realistically styled character, as an example of where you want the art direction to go. That's a face-captured actress, in a AAA game.

If you don't want to admit to yourself that's what you wanted for Shenmue III, fine. But this constant insistence on talking down the team's work and denying a very obvious lineage between the old art and the new, is bullshit.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Uh ? I never said it should look like, tech wise, a 2000 era cgi. I said it looks worse than Shenmue renders and that it reminded me the average cgi render from 2000. What I said is, in term of artstyle, it should looks like more Shenmue's og cgi yes. That's the difference. Both in tech and artstyle. I'd be glad if it looked like the og shenmue cgis... But it looks nothing like that and could pass for any random cgi from the 2000 era.

And no, I never said it should look like MGS5. That's bullshit and you're moving goalposts by willingfully misdirecting my words. I said, for a realistic game (which is the point you made), this is how lighting react to skin. It was about tech, not art. You always mix these two just to make me look like moving goalposts when you're the one doing so.

I never asked for Shenmue 3 to look like a high end AAA game. I asked for Shenmue 3 to not look like something clumsy. And looking clumsy isnt about tech or budget. Shenmue 3 could use the same assets as the original DC games, I wouldnt mind. What I mind though is when the game looks weird on a lot of aspects, like going for a mix of realistic anime in term of art style, or like having cheap looking cgi that looks worse than the original.

If I was asking for Shenmue 3 to look like on par with the modern industry, I'd be damned and I'd be pursuing an unrealistic hope.


I'll make it more simple, so that you cant misinterpret it:
Shenmue 3 CGI renders -> Looks like average cheap CGI renders from the 2000 era.

Shenmue 1 CGI renders -> Doesnt look like average cheap CGI renders from the 2000 era.

Shenmue 3 CGI renders -> Doesnt look like Shenmue 1 CGI renders. Shenmue 1 CGI renders looks better.

Shenmue 3 CGI arts looks like characters are like plastic dolls with shiny anime eyes -> Shenmue 1 CGI art aims to be more realistic with less shiny skins and eyes (with more realistic physical features, far less anime).

Shenmue 3 CGI characters' skin looks like shiny plastic, same for the eyes. It's not because of the lighting being realistic -> Case in point, MGSV showing you how a realistic light focusing on a realistic skin would look like. It doesnt mean I want Shenmue 3 to look like that. I'm saying the argument of the light is wrong. It's an artstyle problem.


As for the lineage, this is wrong and you know it hence why both you and Yu Suzuki keeps reminding it's a work in progress and that they'll change it. Because it looks wrong. Especially with Shenhua

This conversation (and I'm not even sure I could call it that) is beyond a mess. I don't think I'm going to even bother breaking down what you said for a proper reply.

Dude, just put me on ignore if you like, but you've dodged and weaved around your own arguments relentlessly in this thread trying to make poor justifications hold water. If you don't like something, you don't really have to justify it if you don't want to, but these constant mental gymnastics around trying to blame the team for not making the Shenmue III you had in your head is exhausting.

I said what I had to. If you can't see the lineage of this art to the old, or the explanation about how light on skin works, then that's your hangup.

Oh, wow. Here's a palette cleanser. Corey Marshall doing Ryo Hazuki as Inigo Montoya.

https://www.facebook.com/corey.marshall.906/posts/10214931127214581

This gave me chills.

I do agree with GhostTrick that the character models for Shenmue 3 look more anime with shiny features especially in vein of 2000 era CGI. They really do need to fix this because Shenmue had very realistic looking faces despite the dated textures for the time now but I cannot complgiv and it's okay for not being the final version and you can still give that reason for why everything they are showing looks like this. Personally I'd still take these for the game but I do not prefer it.

Why is Ryo so dark brown in his latest publicly shown S3 model? His skin tone is way off.

Looks great. This game is going to be awesome.

Maligna said:

Oh, wow. Here's a palette cleanser. Corey Marshall doing Ryo Hazuki as Inigo Montoya.

https://www.facebook.com/corey.marshall.906/posts/10214931127214581

This gave me chills.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

This is amazing.

Maligna said:

Oh, wow. Here's a palette cleanser. Corey Marshall doing Ryo Hazuki as Inigo Montoya.

https://www.facebook.com/corey.marshall.906/posts/10214931127214581

This gave me chills.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That was fucking great. Corey is awesome on Facebook, I always enjoy joy his posts.

GhostTrick said:

All the pictures you linked were aiming for realistic eyes. This looks nothing like that new render which clearly is aiming for anime eyes.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Aiming for is ultimately not the same as delivering though. I reckon the two pictures of Lakshya model and Nozomi render both have similar sized eyes and iris-sclera ratio.

GhostTrick said:

And yes, as for looking like nothing like Shenmue, you proved it yourself with the cgi render you posted for the characters. Just compare the Shenmue Shenhua cgi renders with the Shenhua ones from Shenmue 3.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Shenhua's model is a unique case and as we all know, is crazy incomplete. If we're strictly comparing the quality of Shenmue III's CGI renders and whether or not they look like Shenmue I's CGI renders, well I'll provide a comparison between Fangmei (old) vs. Ryo (new):

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Minus hair detail, I wouldn't say that either are explicitly far removed from one another, in terms of detail... or stylistically.

GhostTrick said:

Shenmue 3 CGI arts looks like characters are like plastic dolls with shiny anime eyes -> Shenmue 1 CGI art aims to be more realistic with less shiny skins and eyes (with more realistic physical features, far less anime).

Shenmue 3 CGI characters' skin looks like shiny plastic, same for the eyes.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Dude... the eyes are equally as shiny on both things you're trying to compare. There's absolutely no way to tiptoe around that. The rest is your opinion and the glossy look is due to a lack of completed shader work, which as we all know, is work in progress, so I don't get the continued complaints about this.

GhostTrick said:

The first two game you quoted are aiming for an anime artstyle (even a cartoonish one in the case of SFV). And even then NieR Automata doesn't come as shiny when it comes to the eyes for exemple. (On top of that, you took terrible quality screenshots). As for MGSV, it's pretty much highlighting my point.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

These are finished games with likely much more resources behind them. Why is Shenmue 3 being held to this standard? I haven't played a Shenmue game before to be fair, but the characters look, to me, about like what you'd expect a modern continuation of the story to look. Unless they were looking to reinvent the series, something that clearly isn't the case.

you guys are expecting the visual feeling you got from seeing Shenmue you played in 1999 to be the same in 2018.

Well, sorry, the equivalent of that feeling this year was Horizon, Uncharted 4, Detroit, ect.

You won't be getting that from this low-budget Shenmue III game, and you shouldn't have been expecting anywhere close to it.

That looks... bad. Indian outsourcing art studious aren't exactly known for high quality. Why wouldn't Japan studio or another AAA partner be helping with this?

I got hyped for Shenmue again and got things set up for a playthrough, I took some screens of the first game's intro in demul, it seems pretty glitch-free and runs good but this last build doesn't seem to support improvements like higher res rendering. Dreamcast emulation seems so disjoined and nearly defunct these days, it's sad, there's redream which you have to pay for with no guarantee of how it will shape up and reicast which is primarily for android and other than that ancient versions of demul, nulldc, chankast, etc. Hopefully demul gets going again, I thought I read something about that recently. Or maybe SEGA will wake up and give us some ports already :P

Additionally I did some digging around and it seems that an 100% undub (last one was 97%) will be releasing soon and it includes text fixes from the original script as well as fixes of minor issues from the last undub version:
http://www.phantomriverstone.com/2017/11/evolution-of-shenmue-undub-part-3.html
So if you care about consistency like I do that will be nice to have for future playthroughs of the first two. Finally, Yokosuka City has a real Shenmue guide map in .pdf form in both Japanese and English!
http://www.cocoyoko.net/news/shenmue.html

Vibri said:

That looks... bad. Indian outsourcing art studious aren't exactly known for high quality. Why wouldn't Japan studio or another AAA partner be helping with this?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I agree here. A random studio who worked on Bloodborne, Uncharted, Just Cause, Shadow of War, multiple Platinum Games titles and with a lot of western AAA publishers is no good.


...
Please read the thread before posting that kind of ignorant comments.

Vibri said:

That looks... bad. Indian outsourcing art studious aren't exactly known for high quality. Why wouldn't Japan studio or another AAA partner be helping with this?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Nice assumption there bud. Very educated.

Its funny how this is the mentality of people , when even most of Hollywoods biggest movies are outsourced. But no lets just pretend cheap outsourcing to third world countries == bad quality and talent. EXPENSIVE FIRST WORLD COUNTRIES ARE ALWAYS NOMBAH ONE.

GhostTrick said:

Yeah, I agree here. A random studio who worked on Bloodborne, Uncharted, Just Cause, Shadow of War, multiple Platinum Games titles and with a lot of western AAA publishers is no good.
...
Please read the thread before posting that kind of ignorant comments.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Imagine how this thread would have gone if Yu Suzuki picked some other studio that impressed him but didn't have the same resume as Lakshya digital.

All outsourcing companies fluff up their credentials by saying "we worked on Uncharted!". Sure, you and 26 other companies basically making thousands of rocks and props.

Take a look at any studio's original work - characters, environments, concept design from scratch - then make a call. Their Mad Max knock off fighter was abysmal.