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Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,420
The English Wilderness
I think there's kind of a deep-seated problem, here. It's huge, even. I think it's kind of a pervasive, cancerous idea of what a fictional world should be. An idea that's become all too popular. That it should be about power fantasies, it should be unequal, it should be about survival, and it shouldn't have a happy ending.

Why?

That's why I tend to posit Shining Force as my example. What if we'd continued from there and just built upon that?

What if everyone could be equal and good/evil really was just a matter of opinion rather than anything else? What if we were to write actually interesting stories that weren't juvenile, but also stories which were inclusive and utterly fantastic?

Just because you have robots, anthros, flying islands, and whatnot doesn't mean you have to be completely juvenile.

SEGA got that.

I wish other developers did too. I think that's what I'm trying to say. A fictional, fantasy world can be fantastic and not juvenile at the same time. It really is a juvenile, immature thing to dress women up like strippers, to say that these creatures are 'evil' due to the way they look... Were these worlds made by preteen children who'd been exposed to some really toxic ideas of how the world works? It feels like that. That's honestly what most of fantasy feels like, to me.

And yet, does it have to be? You can have airships, and various forms of *punk, you can have science-fantasy, and friendly dragons, and you can still be mature about it! I mean, why not?

Speaking as as a writer who tries to do this: it's a hard sell. A very hard sell. A lot of people want power fantasies. They want a protagonist they can project themselves into. And they certainly don't want to ask themselves awkward questions about morality, or confront their personal prejudices.

For example, see how many gamers look at the OT and reply "but I just want to have fun!".
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
For example, see how many gamers look at the OT and reply "but I just want to have fun!".
Yeah, this is a big part of the problem. Video games still have the notion that, universally, they're supposed to be fun. When, much like any media, they can be so much more, but people have to want that. And it's hard to confront people with the reality that most of what they define as fun is also crass and juvenile. I definitely think that the recent MLP series makes a strong case for how even something with a heavy consumer bent to it can also have a strong message. But it's definitely not easy, because even now you typically have to convince that publisher or producer that the product is going to be fun and sell well, whether it's thoughtful and respectful is almost always an afterthought.
 

StonedCrows

Member
Nov 30, 2017
43
Dary

I knooow. It's just so disappointing that this is the Zeitgeist. I wish we could just find a way to create a paradigm shift to allow for more of this kind of content to exist. I think that whenever it does, it's really special.

Anyone remember Traysia? Just name-dropping that to see if anyone does. That was an odd JRPG.

Anyway, I think I've said all I can about this. I really understand where you're coming from, though. It's just that I'm in a position where I feel like an outlier in wishing that it didn't have to be this way. Rather, I'm just wondering why it is.

I mean, yeah. A fantasy game with airships, friendly dragons, and difficult questions about the nature of life as we know it is exactly what I want. At the same time, it's a hard sell. I just don't understand why people fight being challenged in this format instead of just giving it a chance.

This is where I feel really autistic.

I don't understand people.

Edit: I'm going to say something entirely weird. As is my wont.

I feel like it's porn.

I mean, porn has a place. I like porn, but there needs to be this acceptance of porn. I feel that power fantasies really indemnify that desire people have that's met by porn. I think this is why we're seeing an increasing amount of objectification creeping into this.

It's as if a specific kind of porn is becoming mainstream. I don't think I want that. I'll be as up front as I can and say I'm probably furry. I mean, I don't know how that works since I'm not entirely into the fandom but it's probably a truth so let's roll with that. The thing people say about furries is that they're very sexually charged. Sure! Probably!

What I don't see is the contents of E621 on television.

The contents of Rule34, however...

I think that's what bothers me about power fantasies is that they really are just porn. It's kind of a juvenile appeal to our more primal side. Which is fine! But that's meant for porn sites and should be labelled as such. I look at something like Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and I think that this is the kind of stuff you'd see on a site like Rule34, and I wonder why it's in a video game.

And then I realise that, as I said, a certain kind of porn is becoming increasingly more accepted within the mainstream. And yet furry porn is despised even when it's hidden away from sight where no one can actually see it. This is... odd. It's odd in a way that seems incredibly human, though.

I think if we could just accept that this stuff is basically porn? That'd be a good step forward. I generally think that male power fantasies and porn are inseparable due to the nature of both. So, effectively, I see Xenoblade Chronicles 2 as porn.

Nothing wrong with that! Like I said, I'm furry. It's just that it should be considered porn and it shouldn't be what's plastered all over the mainstream. I think the mainstream should be more preoccupied with things that aren't porn. Inclusive games, films, and books which cover a wide variety of topics and do challenge people.

I just don't understand the desire to make one particular kind of porn mainstream, which I feel is the push of people who 'just want to have fun.' Let's either make all forms of porn mainstream (oh god), or have a proper separation between what is and isn't porn.

I think that's what makes so many of us uncomfortable with XBC2, though. And why those who own it feel they can't play it in public. There's a subconscious knowing that it is, indeed, porn.

Most fantasy is porn. Weird.

Does fantasy need to be synonymous with porn? Mmm. I don't think so! It's the concept of another world, right? So it could be just about anything. Fantasy can be whatever it wants to be. That's the point. But it's fair to say what each particular kind of fantasy is.
 
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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Dary

I knooow. It's just so disappointing that this is the Zeitgeist. I wish we could just find a way to create a paradigm shift to allow for more of this kind of content to exist. I think that whenever it does, it's really special.

Anyone remember Traysia? Just name-dropping that to see if anyone does. That was an odd JRPG.

Anyway, I think I've said all I can about this. I really understand where you're coming from, though. It's just that I'm in a position where I feel like an outlier in wishing that it didn't have to be this way. Rather, I'm just wondering why it is.

I mean, yeah. A fantasy game with airships, friendly dragons, and difficult questions about the nature of life as we know it is exactly what I want. At the same time, it's a hard sell. I just don't understand why people fight being challenged in this format instead of just giving it a chance.

This is where I feel really autistic.

I don't understand people.
Well, near as I can tell, most people don't really like being confronted with things that are intellectually demanding in video games. Physical and motor-response challenges? Sure. Addressing systemic racism, sexism and classism via a fantasy analog? Not so much.
 

StonedCrows

Member
Nov 30, 2017
43
esserius

True. I just wish that could change. I think it could change, really, if we recognised that much of this fantasy is porn. No two ways about it. And that fantasy doesn't need to be porn.

I'll continue name-dropping, too. Out There: Chronicles is definitely worth a play for anyone who hasn't yet done so.
 

Deleted member 12009

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
Well, near as I can tell, most people don't really like being confronted with things that are intellectually demanding in video games. Physical and motor-response challenges? Sure. Addressing systemic racism, sexism and classism via a fantasy analog? Not so much.

I have to wonder if that reaction is simply the effect of games never really treading into that territory, and when they do they do so halfheartedly. People have grown accustomed to gaming being apolitical and for many fringe groups that makes them neutral ground. All this talk of sexism and racism is simply stirring up shit they don't want to confront in gaming as they've been cornered into defending their opinions on virtually every other media platform.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I have to wonder if that reaction is simply the effect of games never really treading into that territory, and when they do they do so halfheartedly. People have grown accustomed to gaming being apolitical and for many fringe groups that makes them neutral ground. All this talk of sexism and racism is simply stirring up shit they don't want to confront in gaming as they've been cornered into defending their opinions on virtually every other media platform.

Games have never been apolitical, though. They just agreed with the political beliefs of privileged white, straight men.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
Now, a lot of my favourite fantasy writers stick by their six-guns and don't alter their vision just to make money. This was true of both Anne McCaffrey and Terry Pratchett right up until they died.
You. I like you.

I read your whole post and I think you have a really interesting argument. Can you find the study on intelligence vs. Grimdark preferences? Would love to see it.
 

PtM

Banned
Dec 7, 2017
3,582
Porn is a good analogy. I wager videogames, for most people, are a means of escapism. And not that kind of escapism where it's just like the real world but with happy endings. That's probably not strong enough for most tastes, especially if your gaming time is highly limited. So you go into juvenile territory, and most people are fine with that, to take a break from adult life, and play.
As for why a certain porn prevails: because the market(ing) decided that's what most people want.
Similarly, it has decided that there aren't enough connoisseurs for mature video games and rather tends to the gluttons.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Similarly, it has decided that there aren't enough connoisseurs for mature video games and rather tends to the gluttons.
I'd be more cynical and say that it's because they know the connoisseurs aren't just going to swallow whatever is put in front of them, and selling to the whales requires a lot less work.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,403
As long as we're recommending games, Cosmic Star Heroine is also really great. 20 hours in, haven't finished it yet, but it's been great so far. Also one of the few turn-based RPGs I've played that manages to maintain consistent challenge throughout.
Can confirm!

Respectful inclusion of ethnic minorities? Non-binary people? LGBTQ people?
Oh? What LGBTQ people were there in Shining Force? o.O
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Games Workshop makes fun of this regularly with Warhammer 40k, and the grim, darkness of its future.

Then so many people took Warhammer 40k seriously.

Excuse me while I flop on my desk.
As someone who grew playing and reading about warhammer 40k (and 2000AD), I also find the modern computer game take on the world, where everything is oh-so-serious, to be completely out of sync with the original material. The black, horrific comedy and satire of it all, lampooning hundreds of examples of military, religious and beaurocratic idiocy across various time periods, gets lost amidst all the generic computer games explosions and rattle of machine guns and showers of blood and victory cheers.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Dary

I knooow. It's just so disappointing that this is the Zeitgeist. I wish we could just find a way to create a paradigm shift to allow for more of this kind of content to exist. I think that whenever it does, it's really special.

Anyone remember Traysia? Just name-dropping that to see if anyone does. That was an odd JRPG.

Anyway, I think I've said all I can about this. I really understand where you're coming from, though. It's just that I'm in a position where I feel like an outlier in wishing that it didn't have to be this way. Rather, I'm just wondering why it is.

I mean, yeah. A fantasy game with airships, friendly dragons, and difficult questions about the nature of life as we know it is exactly what I want. At the same time, it's a hard sell. I just don't understand why people fight being challenged in this format instead of just giving it a chance.

This is where I feel really autistic.

I don't understand people.
I think that there is a place for that kind of storytelling, but you're not going to see much of it in AAA or Japanese games. AAA games need the massive sales so they're going to play it safe for the most part in trying to deliver power fantasies to their players. It's not altogether impossible for more nuance as this seems to be the direction that games like the Last of Us wants to aspire towards. But as most of these games have action films as their role models, you can't expect too much there. The problem with Japanese games is simply that a lot of the issues that we're discussing in this thread simply don't resonate in the Japanese public. The direction that their stories are leaning towards are largely going in the wrong direction and Japanese developers barely understand what the whole controversy is. It's not something just confined to games either as a lot of Japanese entertainment is doing much the same thing.

Hope isn't all lost though. There is a lot more room for nuance in the indie space, and there is a lot of cool stuff going on there. I'm playing Shadowrun: Hong Kong and Tyranny right now, and both of those games have a lot more freedom to go beyond the typical power fantasy. Tyranny might be especially interesting here as it tells a story about playing essentially a villainous character without going about it the way that Bioware does. I'm also holding out hope that the new Battletech game will deliver more of that stuff.

As someone who grew playing and reading about warhammer 40k (and 2000AD), I also find the modern computer game take on the world, where everything is oh-so-serious, to be completely out of sync with the original material. The black, horrific comedy and satire of it all, lampooning hundreds of examples of military, religious and beaurocratic idiocy across various time periods, gets lost amidst all the generic computer games explosions and rattle of machine guns and showers of blood and victory cheers.
The problem is that the modern Games Workshop has also forgotten that, and developers are going to fall in line with what GW wants. You will find a bit of that tongue-in-cheek stuff in Blood Bowl and Vermintide though.
 

StonedCrows

Member
Nov 30, 2017
43
RE: Games Workshop

Yeah. I loved how it would brazenly mock the kind of wrongheaded thinking displayed by oh so many military forces throughout history. It made them jokes of themselves, never really celebrating that and always nudging with an elbow over how ridiculous and toxic it all was. I don't think they could've driven that home any more successfully without taping "I surrender!" written on a bit of paper to an ultramarine's back.

Sadly, that's kind of been lost to the sands of time. What was once a faux celebration made in jest to undermine so many concepts of war has become a real, unironic celebration of military force and unethical tactics.

RE: LGBTQ Shining Force

I meant that as a projection, I did try to convey that in the context but I also know that I can be prone to dialogue so ramblesome it'd make Bram Stoker blush. I don't mean to, mind you, I just don't know how else to communicate. I try, but I know things get lost in the noise. When I'm trying to talk about something important to me, I don't know what to leave out or keep in. This is a very autistic problem that I'm aware of, it's a kind of earnest, overly honest infodump that I understand can make people uncomfortable.

Still, you've all been kind and understanding, so I want to make an effort, too. Okay, conaider it as a projection. A 'what if' scenario from an alternate reality wheree Shining Force was allowed to retain its identity and grow up with us. Considering its treatment of women and the diverse selection of personalities, ages, and genders on offer, what might Shining Force look like today? What if we'd been able to have a Shining Force with a mature plot that included ethnic minorities, LGBTQ people, and non-binary people treated with the same kind of respect that Shining Force showed its women? Even, dare I even say it, including well-researched, fair, and even-handed depictions of neurodiverse individuals? All this amidst the dragons, werewolves, robots, flying machines, and awe-inspiring wonder of it all.

I want to go and live in that reality and play that game.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Well, near as I can tell, most people don't really like being confronted with things that are intellectually demanding in video games. Physical and motor-response challenges? Sure. Addressing systemic racism, sexism and classism via a fantasy analog? Not so much.

Games often function as escapism. Intelectual demand takes forms other that the social ills surrounding us and for many this is purely entertainment with hurdles designed to be overcome. The medium and it's most common purpose tend to make it a poor platform for popularizing tough subjects.

Games have never been apolitical, though. They just agreed with the political beliefs of privileged white, straight men.

What political statements were Doom (2016) or the souls series trying to make? Was cuphead a politicized message? Skullgirls? Odin's Sphere? Yakuza? No Man's Sky? Persona? Bloodborne? Okami? Horizon? NierA?

Going through my game list doesn't bring up a lot of white male politics.
 
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Stantastic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,493
How anyone can look at a franchise whos most iconic line "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD,! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!" and not realize its basically a hyper-violent cartoon in tone will never not mystify me.

I don't necessarily need stronger narrative, I just enjoy a serious tone much more. I should definitely give Shadowrun a try, though! It's very cheap right now.


I recently-ish played and loved the GBA one, it truly feels like a product of a different era. It's a Japanese SRPG with no otaku pandering, it was so refreshing to play such a thing in this day and age. I should play the PS1/SNES/PSP game!

of the newer games i would definitely recommend Dragonsfall, and if not that then Hong Kong. Returns was kinda ehh.
hopefully its the kind of thing your after.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
I miss old school Sega so much. Nowadays they publish misogynistic games like Yakuza, Shining Force is full of softcore waifu hentai, and nu-Phantasy Star is Objectification Central. Sigh.

No wonder this iconic game did not become popular outside Japan

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sakurawars7wtj8v.jpg
 

StonedCrows

Member
Nov 30, 2017
43
Games often function as escapism. Intelectual demand takes forms other that the social ills surrounding us and for many this is purely entertainment with hurdles designed to be overcome. The medium and it's most common purpose tend to make it a poor platform for popularizing tough subjects.

Interesting choice of words. I don't believe any medium is a 'poor platform,' just a tricky one. It may take effort, and the profit might not be so profound, but it more comes down to laziness and an eye for the best profits over all else that results in the situation we see right now. The status quo is what it is because of public opinion, nothing more. A good paradigm shift alters public opinion and reforms the status quo. All it takes is a concerted effort by enough people tryong to inspire a difference, to lead by example with inclusion and placing their vision at least somewhere on level with gptheir profit margin, if not above it.

So I think the justification of 'a poor platform' is a flimsy one. Besides, some of us are entertained by being challenged intellectually. I don't think that people are the air-headed, empty dunderheads your position seems to make them out to be? Otherwise, Gone Home and To the Moon wouldn't have enjoyed the succes they did.

Another reason this argument rings hollow with me is tgat I'm old enough to remember when people were saying exactly this about the medium of film versus books. The argjment dixn't hold up then snd for that medium, and I don't think it holds up now and for this one.

What political statements were Doom (2016) or the souls series trying to make? Was cuphead a politicized message? Skullgirls? Odin's Sphere? Yakuza? No Man's Sky? Persona? Bloodborne? Okami? Horizon? NierA?

Going through my game list doesn't bring up a lot of white male politics.

Hm. You don't ghink thst those games uphold toxic standards of masculinity, feminity, gender norms, and white power? How interesting! I'm not sure that I'm eloquent enough to dxplain it to you, but the vrry evidence here of your blindness to it is as fascinating as it is telling. It's genuinely intriguing yo me! No sarcasm, honest! But, I mean, you really don't see tgat at all? Not even a little bit? Is this an artefact of cultural conditooning? See, I honestly don't quite know how to go about this.

I'll give you yhe benefit of the doubt and assume actual obliviousness instead of disingenuous intent. I feel we tend to jump to that too easily, and I don't think you're guilty of ill will, here. I want to believe that's the case as you'vd yet to ring alarm bells in my hesd. But still, how do I show you that which you're blind to? I worry the effort will just leave you feeling angry and me frustrated. Anita Sarkeesian is a good touchstone for this, yeah?

What can I say other tgan... look again?
 
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Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,420
The English Wilderness
Not gaming, I know, but I just got back from watching the new Star Wars and was impressed at the number of competent women featured...and completely unsurprised to see the Internet in a frothing rage with petitions demanding the film de-canonised. What a time to be alive!
 

Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
Not gaming, I know, but I just got back from watching the new Star Wars and was impressed at the number of competent women featured...and completely unsurprised to see the Internet in a frothing rage with petitions demanding the film de-canonised. What a time to be alive!
Errrr... thats not why the movie is being roasted for....
 

Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
No idea about the little details, but vocals aside, movie overal do have divisive opinions. My point was the miss association that star wars got back slash cause of women cast....

If anything im more interested to see the reaction to Ocean's Eight
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
What political statements were Doom (2016) or the souls series trying to make? Was cuphead a politicized message? Skullgirls? Odin's Sphere? Yakuza? No Man's Sky? Persona? Bloodborne? Okami? Horizon? NierA?

Going through my game list doesn't bring up a lot of white male politics.

Virtually every single one of the games you listed has gender politics. Many of them have been discussed in this thread, even (Yakuza, Persona 5, Nier Automata and Skullgirls specifically, I believe Odin's Sphere as well).

I find it particularly hilarious to say that Yakuza games don't have gender politics, or that Persona 5, Nier and Skullgirls don't sexualize their characters.

Going through my game list doesn't bring up a lot of white male politics.

I'm not usually one for cliches but I'm really going to have to go with "this says more about you than the topic at hand" here.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
What political statements were Doom (2016) or the souls series trying to make? Was cuphead a politicized message? Skullgirls? Odin's Sphere? Yakuza? No Man's Sky? Persona? Bloodborne? Okami? Horizon? NierA?

Going through my game list doesn't bring up a lot of white male politics.
All of these games certainly have a strong male politic at play, and most all of them have a white male politic at play.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
What political statements were Doom (2016) or the souls series trying to make? Was cuphead a politicized message? Skullgirls? Odin's Sphere? Yakuza? No Man's Sky? Persona? Bloodborne? Okami? Horizon? NierA?

Going through my game list doesn't bring up a lot of white male politics.
To be clear, when we say that games are inherently political we're not talking about a conscious effort to include a political slant, we're talking about the background of the people who made that game showing through the work in the choices they made, which itself is a political aspect (that is to say, the makeup of the dev team and their cultural and experiential background as such).

Doom, for example, includes depictions of demons that are pulling heavily from western mythology - more specifically, a version seen through the lens of what is likely a majority-white-male dev team attempting to squeeze everything into the "rule of cool". There are politics at play there - for example, whether or not you find their particular depictions "cool" or not, whether or not you respect the use of demons, whether or not you like the intense focus on over-the-top close-quarters violence: it's all political to some extent, even if we're largely in consensus that nu-id software pulled off what they were trying to do pretty well.

It's not that they were trying to say something. It's that they always do say something, whether they intended to or not, simply by how they chose to add or depict or not depict certain elements.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
Err, nier automata is a very political game. It even speaks somewhat on gender politics, and write a lot on gender philosophy.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Err, nier automata is a very political game. It even speaks somewhat on gender politics, and write a lot on gender philosophy.

Political? Yes. an example of white male politics? A much harder sell. The themes are generally not even racially specific.

All of these games certainly have a strong male politic at play, and most all of them have a white male politic at play.

In what way? What are we calling white male politics that encompass those titles?

To be clear, when we say that games are inherently political we're not talking about a conscious effort to include a political slant, we're talking about the background of the people who made that game showing through the work in the choices they made, which itself is a political aspect (that is to say, the makeup of the dev team and their cultural and experiential background as such).

Doom, for example, includes depictions of demons that are pulling heavily from western mythology - more specifically, a version seen through the lens of what is likely a majority-white-male dev team attempting to squeeze everything into the "rule of cool". There are politics at play there - for example, whether or not you find their particular depictions "cool" or not, whether or not you respect the use of demons, whether or not you like the intense focus on over-the-top close-quarters violence: it's all political to some extent, even if we're largely in consensus that nu-id software pulled off what they were trying to do pretty well.

It's not that they were trying to say something. It's that they always do say something, whether they intended to or not, simply by how they chose to add or depict or not depict certain elements.

So then what we're talking about isn't political, male or white in essense, but concepts that Christianity has normalized, filtered through a strong abstraction process and distilled down to what is cool. This is why I have issues with the concept of calling something broadly politicized because it doesn't inherently discard all cultural influence even when those influences don't carry any of the historical baggage relevant to the topic.

The inclusion of cultural influence isn't politicizing something in itself and here it really feels like you're saying that the backgrounds of those who create games overrides the conscious messages their trying to send while picking of the list the game that sends the message the devs want to send in its most pure form even upon your reading of it.

Virtually every single one of the games you listed has gender politics. Many of them have been discussed in this thread, even (Yakuza, Persona 5, Nier Automata and Skullgirls specifically, I believe Odin's Sphere as well).

I find it particularly hilarious to say that Yakuza games don't have gender politics, or that Persona 5, Nier and Skullgirls don't sexualize their characters.

So help me out here, are we talking about gender politics in isolation or the specific statement I addressed of games being the product of white straight male politics. Yes, individual elements of those will show through in many of those cases, but white ethnocentric viewpoints aren't spilling from a lot of them, which feel like a discounting of the amount of non-white game creation going on especially in Japan. With the descriptors I responded to we're looking at a narrower segment than gender politics and one that ignored foreign influences.

I'm not usually one for cliches but I'm really going to have to go with "this says more about you than the topic at hand" here.

So you have some support for the white politics showing through or is this more of an any of the above rather than looking at what I responded to?

Interesting choice of words. I don't believe any medium is a 'poor platform,' just a tricky one. It may take effort, and the profit might not be so profound, but it more comes down to laziness and an eye for the best profits over all else that results in the situation we see right now. The status quo is what it is because of public opinion, nothing more. A good paradigm shift alters public opinion and reforms the status quo. All it takes is a concerted effort by enough people tryong to inspire a difference, to lead by example with inclusion and placing their vision at least somewhere on level with gptheir profit margin, if not above it.

So I think the justification of 'a poor platform' is a flimsy one. Besides, some of us are entertained by being challenged intellectually. I don't think that people are the air-headed, empty dunderheads your position seems to make them out to be? Otherwise, Gone Home and To the Moon wouldn't have enjoyed the succes they did.

Another reason this argument rings hollow with me is tgat I'm old enough to remember when people were saying exactly this about the medium of film versus books. The argjment dixn't hold up then snd for that medium, and I don't think it holds up now and for this one.

Games that fail to take into account what a specific audience wants of them will obviously fail to reach that audience. We see the idea of less mindful gaming reinforced by the chart topping "mindless" games that keep coming out. They know they have an audience they keep feeding and fundamentally don't have reasons to make the experiences deeper than what their respective audiences are looking for.

Regarding movies, we have summer superhero blockbusters reinforcing this point on their side as well. Movies never outgrew simple spectacle as a whole and entire genres are still reliant on it due to there being a willing and receptive audience doing the exact thing I'm referring to. It's not that a medium can't do something, it's that a number of users of that medium are content not to engage with those attempts.

Hm. You don't ghink thst those games uphold toxic standards of masculinity, feminity, gender norms, and white power? How interesting! I'm not sure that I'm eloquent enough to dxplain it to you, but the vrry evidence here of your blindness to it is as fascinating as it is telling. It's genuinely intriguing yo me! No sarcasm, honest! But, I mean, you really don't see tgat at all? Not even a little bit? Is this an artefact of cultural conditooning? See, I honestly don't quite know how to go about this.

I'll give you yhe benefit of the doubt and assume actual obliviousness instead of disingenuous intent. I feel we tend to jump to that too easily, and I don't think you're guilty of ill will, here. I want to believe that's the case as you'vd yet to ring alarm bells in my hesd. But still, how do I show you that which you're blind to? I worry the effort will just leave you feeling angry and me frustrated. Anita Sarkeesian is a good touchstone for this, yeah?

What can I say other tgan... look again?

I mean, did you look at the list? A significant portion have no statement on gender, The souls series/doom/NMS/skullgirls are examples of that. Yes, that last one is rife with serialization, but doesn't rationalize women into specific gendered views of roles and occupations. NierA and HZD actually speak to in their own ways some of the interplay and addressing gender roles.

Yakuza, Persona, Okami and NierA don't draw from fundamentally western historical or cultural influences.

And none of those save possibly doom being a power fantasy and the protagonist being white could be thought of as a white power fantasy specifically, and that only if you create the ideology that the doomslayer is powerful because he is white, which is never an inference the game makes or approaches even hinting at.

The broad brush that was thrown out paints beyond the core aspect of this conversation and into a realm of broadly ascribing gaming's ills to a single cause of a consistent problem with a single political leaning. But nuanced looks at what we're playing don't bear that out.
 
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Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
The themes of nier are very much about race (not quite specifically talking about a race, more abstracting out, but still), prejudice and superficiality.

Like, it's a game critiquing and breaking down human society. It's impossible for it to not be political.

I wouldn't say so those games all relate to white male politics specifically because some of them aren't made by white males, but if you want to create a game that has interaction with people and create social dynamics within those interactions it is inherently political. It's impossible to do so otherwise. Because politics are the values we try to present within a society.
 
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DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
The themes of nier are very much about race (not quite specifically taking about a race, more abstracting out, but still), prejudice and superficiality.

Like, it's a game critiquing and breaking down human society. It's impossible for it to not be political.

I wouldn't say so those games all relate to white male politics specifically because some of them aren't made by white males, but if you want to create a game that has interaction with people and create social dynamics within those interactions it is inherently political. It's impossible to do so otherwise. Because politics are the values we try to present within a society.

Abstract racial commentary and white perspective are not necessarily one in the same. Not because they aren't made by white males, but because they all have their own perspectives and intents which don't always align with the white male perspective.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
I mean, take it how you will, but Yoko taro has mentioned this.

Yoko Taro: I wasn't directly thinking about it but, looking back, I do feel like I may have been influenced by the changes that were happening in the world. For example, changes from "reason to emotion" and "objective to subjective," which are represented by "President Trump being elected" and "the UK leaving the EU." The fact that I've aged must be related to it somehow as well.

More on topic though unless you somehow do the impossible and make a work entirely divorced from your own ideals, every work will be tinged with their perspective and politics, and in the case of the game industry it's overwhelmingly white males. Or Japanese males.
 
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Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Man, what the hell is Xenoblade 2's problem. It took one of the two female characters I genuinely enjoy, one with a relatively tame design and strong personality (and all in all favorite character of mine) , and in a matter of seconds gave her a leotard and made her fall in love with the male protagonist

It's like the game is actively trying to repel me, god damn it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
I mean, the original Nier was said to be heavily influenced by the September 11th attacks and the Iraq war. The points of view of both the Iraqi insurgents that sought to defend their country and the US invading forces, both doing what they believed was just, etc.

All of Taro's games are also openly critical of the amount of violence in modern video games. At least the ones I've played.

These games are pretty clearly political.
 

Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
Man, what the hell is Xenoblade 2's problem. It took one of the two female characters I genuinely enjoy, one with a relatively tame design and strong personality (and all in all favorite character of mine) , and in a matter of seconds gave her a leotard and made her fall in love with the male protagonist

It's like the game is actively trying to repel me, god damn it.
I wont debate you the blade form, but you can not be this oblivious about her having feeling for Rex
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
I can only speak for myself, but I certainly don't want to take things I like away as a concept (I am literally typing this while alt-tabbed out of a visual novel, I'm pretty close to peak weeb in the media I consume) but I do think it's important that one be both self-aware and aware of the impact that the media you consume can have on other people--it's part of general critical discourse and it's usually healthy to be critical of the stuff you enjoy. I've watched, from a position of mostly unchanging enjoyment, as JRPGs genre-wide have shifted toward pandering almost exclusively to 20-30-something male otaku and teenage boys. I've watched Atelier, which once targeted at a primary demographic of women, begin targeting the male otaku market for supplementary income with gradually increasing intensity over the years. I've watched as friends struggle through the changes that ongoing series make, and eventually fall out of love with them because the content that makes them uncomfortable starts to eclipse the things they enjoy.

I think that's a shame, and something very much worthy of criticism. Most women are not asking to be able to play Senran Kagura without being uncomfortable if they don't fall into the target zone--they're not asking to play Dead or Alive, either. They're looking at entire genres that have increasingly alienated them over time and lamenting that things that they liked do not want them anymore. People do not want to take things you like away in the context that they don't want them to exist at all, but they do tend to wish that they could actually play reasonably successful, critically acclaimed JRPGs and Fighting Games without being slapped in the face periodically. I don't think that's an unfair ask.

I can't walk two steps without tripping over anime tits, and I don't need them in everything I consume. I'd rather the stuff I like that isn't fully contingent on them be enjoyed by the largest possible audience, because I don't need literally every work of media I consume to pander to me sexually, and as Japanese media is concerned very nearly ALL OF THEM try to. AAA western games have unquestionably gotten way, way better over the course of the last decade, though they're not all the way home yet. But, like, it is NOT EASY to be a woman who likes JRPGs and doesn't want tits shoved in her face on a regular basis right now. You only can play like 20% of the genre's output at that point. And as the western market is concerned JRPGs are one of the most popular genres among female players last I checked, so it's a pretty huge global market disconnect.

This is a pretty accurate representation of my headspace too. For my part for a couple years after I "woke up" to this kind of shit I wasn't able to enjoy trashy fanservicey stuff, but I eventually let myself sink back down into desensitization enough to return to enjoying my garbage while also criticizing media trends. I feel like it's been a more enjoyable place to be mentally since making that transition, but it'd be difficult to speak to whether it's a healthier place to be or not--to just be able to open with a "Jesus Christ, guys" and possibly a facepalm, and then let it go until I'm reflecting on the work later.

This was a very informative post. I should try to avoid lumping people together.

Errrr... thats not why the movie is being roasted for....

Is it being roasted? Last I heard a small Alt-Right group took credit for that. Using bots to spreaf hate for the film and hack public opinion.

Should be careful with that. Their tactic is get people roped in with their label for believing harmless stuff. Rotten Tomatoes confirmed that the reviews were legitimate fans getting butthurt.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
I mean, the original Nier was said to be heavily influenced by the September 11th attacks and the Iraq war. The points of view of both the Iraqi insurgents that sought to defend their country and the US invading forces, both doing what they believed was just, etc.

All of Taro's games are also openly critical of the amount of violence in modern video games. At least the ones I've played.

These games are pretty clearly political.

Let me state that I misspokec when I made that original statement. What I was responding to was: "They just agreed with the political beliefs of privileged white, straight men." which seemed to boil down gaming's influences as coming from that singular narrow and self promoting perspective. The very motivation you just pointed out is indicative of a different perspective and political leaning than the white ethnocentric characterization of middle eastern terrorism and the claims of it's pervasiveness across arabic cultures and claims to their complicitness in them. Compare Nier's characterization of conflict and you see an obviously different influence than "the political beliefs of privileged white, straight men."
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Man, what the hell is Xenoblade 2's problem. It took one of the two female characters I genuinely enjoy, one with a relatively tame design and strong personality (and all in all favorite character of mine) , and in a matter of seconds gave her a leotard and made her fall in love with the male protagonist

It's like the game is actively trying to repel me, god damn it.

Oh, finally got to that part, huh? Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction to the design. The hints of her attraction were there earlier though. It still feels really rushed and its unfortunate because it undermines the other important aspect of that scene and gah I think I just added another paragraph in my essay...

The good news is that by the time I'm finally done with this...thing I'm writing I think most people will be done with the game so good for me...no seriously, why have I become this obsessed over this game?
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I have my doubts, considering the top post and others.



Do you think this comes down to preferences? That seems like the case. The most popular het-female erotica don't seem to feature insane proportions and the sex icons aimed at het-women don't seem to have crazy proportions either. Preferences like bodybuilder seem very niche.

Also, if this is in response to me rolling my eyes over Dr. Coyle's heels, then let me be clear. I do not want to remove them. I am still free to mock how stupid they look, which is what I was doing.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
I wont debate you the blade form, but you can not be this oblivious about her having feeling for Rex

Oh, finally got to that part, huh? Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction to the design. The hints of her attraction were there earlier though. It still feels really rushed and its unfortunate because it undermines the other important aspect of that scene and gah I think I just added another paragraph in my essay...

The good news is that by the time I'm finally done with this...thing I'm writing I think most people will be done with the game so good for me...no seriously, why have I become this obsessed over this game?
Oh yeah I was definitely aware that she had a particular fondness for him, I was just wishing it was some sense of camaraderie rather than romantic love, especially considering how often she criticizes him, it makes her come across as kinda tsundere which is a pretty boring route to take with her IMO. But yeah I kinda saw it coming, I just wished it was less heavy handed and out if nowhere.

The fact that she confesses right when she essentially becomes his servant rubs me the wrong way too, as I had enough with Pyra already.

By the way I'm very much looking forward to reading that thread of yours Xas. I have A LOT of complaints about this game but I still like it and am interested in reading different interpretations on it.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,020
Also, if this is in response to me rolling my eyes over Dr. Coyle's heels, then let me be clear. I do not want to remove them. I am still free to mock how stupid they look, which is what I was doing.

The heels' design, or the fact that she's wearing them at all?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
Let me state that I misspokec when I made that original statement. What I was responding to was: "They just agreed with the political beliefs of privileged white, straight men." which seemed to boil down gaming's influences as coming from that singular narrow and self promoting perspective. The very motivation you just pointed out is indicative of a different perspective and political leaning than the white ethnocentric characterization of middle eastern terrorism and the claims of it's pervasiveness across arabic cultures and claims to their complicitness in them. Compare Nier's characterization of conflict and you see an obviously different influence than "the political beliefs of privileged white, straight men."

Ah, I believe I just jumped in mid way through this conversation and did not entirely grab the earlier argument. That's my bad.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
Let me state that I misspokec when I made that original statement. What I was responding to was: "They just agreed with the political beliefs of privileged white, straight men." which seemed to boil down gaming's influences as coming from that singular narrow and self promoting perspective. The very motivation you just pointed out is indicative of a different perspective and political leaning than the white ethnocentric characterization of middle eastern terrorism and the claims of it's pervasiveness across arabic cultures and claims to their complicitness in them. Compare Nier's characterization of conflict and you see an obviously different influence than "the political beliefs of privileged white, straight men."

But that's very different than saying that games have no politics.

And let's be clear, most games are still written from the white/Japanese male perspective, and thus tinged with their politics even in some degree.

And even in the case of nier, we have a tendency in idolise male creators. Let's not forget that he works extensively with female writers also. For all of his games.

Which leads to the point where we need more female writers and creators in gaming.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
But that's very different than saying that gages have no politics.

And let's be clear, most games are still written from the white/Japanese male perspective, and thus tinged with their politics even in some degree.

And even in the case of nier, we have a tendency in idolise male creators. Let's not forget that he works extensively with female writers also. For all of his games.

Which leads to the point where we need more female writers and creators in gaming.

Hence why I'm saying I misspoke. I didn't say specifically what I meant which lead to replies that were a result of not stating it correctly.

I'm certainly not arguing on any level against more inclusion in game creators.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
In what way? What are we calling white male politics that encompass those titles?
Am not going to write a treatise on this, but you can Google it. The idea that games created for white people reflect white people's views shouldn't be shocking or new though. And before the poor excuse of, "but they're made in Japan!", look up cultural imperialism.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...mes-too-white-too-male-women-ethnic-diversity
https://kotaku.com/5939367/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-game-without-politics-or-an-agenda
https://www.npr.org/sections/alltec...ming-while-male-a-privilege-few-men-recognize
https://www.vox.com/2016/4/17/11442730/rust-experimental-race-gender-random
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-12-13-games-and-politics-in-2016

The list... as they say, goes on.
The inclusion of cultural influence isn't politicizing something in itself and here it really feels like you're saying that the backgrounds of those who create games overrides the conscious messages their trying to send while picking of the list the game that sends the message the devs want to send in its most pure form even upon your reading of it.
"The devs" don't get to choose the message. The message is what the game promotes and reinforces, and that includes things the authors almost assuredly did not intend. And with any act of creation, the creator doesn't get to choose what people take away from it (nor should they, in my opinion). That said, it doesn't mean they are helpless to change their message before a game's released.

So help me out here, are we talking about gender politics in isolation or the specific statement I addressed of games being the product of white straight male politics. Yes, individual elements of those will show through in many of those cases, but white ethnocentric viewpoints aren't spilling from a lot of them, which feel like a discounting of the amount of non-white game creation going on especially in Japan. With the descriptors I responded to we're looking at a narrower segment than gender politics and one that ignored foreign influences.
Again, as has been said before, I think this mostly reflects upon you rather than the discussion. Just because they aren't shouting "white people are the greatest!" doesn't mean they aren't promoting a worldview that is positive for white males and negative for (almost) everybody else.

Games that fail to take into account what a specific audience wants of them will obviously fail to reach that audience. We see the idea of less mindful gaming reinforced by the chart topping "mindless" games that keep coming out. They know they have an audience they keep feeding and fundamentally don't have reasons to make the experiences deeper than what their respective audiences are looking for.

Regarding movies, we have summer superhero blockbusters reinforcing this point on their side as well. Movies never outgrew simple spectacle as a whole and entire genres are still reliant on it due to there being a willing and receptive audience doing the exact thing I'm referring to. It's not that a medium can't do something, it's that a number of users of that medium are content not to engage with those attempts.
Engaging in bad or lazy behavior because it's popular doesn't mean it's beyond reproach or not a problem. And people criticize the pandering that happens in movies all the time because it's long been recognized as a problem, and there is an active movement within the film industry to stymie such poor practice. The game industry still has very little of this, and it's now leading to games looking more like gambling and porn than ever before. It's not a good look.
I mean, did you look at the list? A significant portion have no statement on gender, The souls series/doom/NMS/skullgirls are examples of that. Yes, that last one is rife with serialization, but doesn't rationalize women into specific gendered views of roles and occupations. NierA and HZD actually speak to in their own ways some of the interplay and addressing gender roles.
The Souls series is a series dominated by men and male archetypes, all playing out a western mythology of heroism, established by stories created by (and for) white males. The one that does this the least, Dark Souls II, was also (unsurprisingly) the one most critically panned.
Yakuza, Persona, Okami and NierA don't draw from fundamentally western historical or cultural influences.
Yakuza and Okami I can see the argument for (not that there's been an actual argument presented as to how they do or don't), but Nier Automata and the Persona series draw heavily from western mythology. Their stories and their characters have been greatly influenced by western ideals and those spill over strongly in the games.
And none of those save possibly doom being a power fantasy and the protagonist being white could be thought of as a white power fantasy specifically, and that only if you create the ideology that the doomslayer is powerful because he is white, which is never an inference the game makes or approaches even hinting at.
This is just pretty laughable. Nearly all the games you mentioned are white power fantasies. They mythologize a distinctly white male vision of the world, entirely because of what they normalize. Persona's distinct brand of homophobia, or Nier Automata's literal idolatry of "past world" ideals, or even Yakuza's normalization of women as being less capable.
 
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Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
Oh yeah I was definitely aware that she had a particular fondness for him, I was just wishing it was some sense of camaraderie rather than romantic love, especially considering how often she criticizes him, it makes her come across as kinda tsundere which is a pretty boring route to take with her IMO. But yeah I kinda saw it coming, I just wished it was less heavy handed and out if nowhere.

The fact that she confesses right when she essentially becomes his servant rubs me the wrong way too, as I had enough with Pyra already.

By the way I'm very much looking forward to reading that thread of yours Xas. I have A LOT of complaints about this game but I still like it and am interested in reading different interpretations on it.
That spoiler.... errr... you might get happier at a cut scene at one point during chapter 9 then, nia touches a little of that topic
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
The heels' design, or the fact that she's wearing them at all?

Both to be honest. I know Ribbon Girl and Twintelle also wear them but at least they're not heels that have extra heels on their front section. I know she flies but that can't be good for any sort of walking.

Oh yeah I was definitely aware that she had a particular fondness for him, I was just wishing it was some sense of camaraderie rather than romantic love, especially considering how often she criticizes him, it makes her come across as kinda tsundere which is a pretty boring route to take with her IMO. But yeah I kinda saw it coming, I just wished it was less heavy handed and out if nowhere.

The fact that she confesses right when she essentially becomes his servant rubs me the wrong way too, as I had enough with Pyra already.

By the way I'm very much looking forward to reading that thread of yours Xas. I have A LOT of complaints about this game but I still like it and am interested in reading different interpretations on it.

Yay! One more person to disappoint with my awful writing skills! :P
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,020
Both to be honest. I know Ribbon Girl and Twintelle also wear them but at least they're not heels that have extra heels on their front section. I know she flies but that can't be good for any sort of walking.

That's literally why I gave it a pass tbh, maybe she just floats all day lol
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I'm not sure how far along you are but
but it is a past would that is entirely characterised as a failure. And the new brings who idolise it are doomed to repeatedly fail.
I've beaten the game and its multiple endings. I'm aware, but this is the same as the skirt achievement. Just because it's stating that it's bad (or satirizing it) doesn't stop the worldview from being further mythologized. And I also wouldn't go so far as to say that Nier Automata ever actively criticizes it or attempts to revolutionize it so that there is a possible solution, so much as passively presents it as a history of failure.
 

Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
Opa-Pa
writting off their bond as simple master n slave ignoras the whole develoment of the game and subsequently chapters, non of the rare blades or the main party see emsekves as held to their driver againts their will
 
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