A look back at initial fan reactions to Empire Strikes back

Thatguy · Dec 25, 2017

But

TyrantII said:
Everyone fails in TLJ. They literally bang you over the head with it. It ain't just Kylo. That's the message of the movie, and the play on the characters and fans hubris.

Kylo kills Snoke and becomes the emperor. Luke out wits him. Rey becomes a force wizard and helps everyone escape. Everyone wins. It's not fan hubris to be in expectation of a good story. That's just any average person walking into a theater. TLJ shockingly ditches good story writing for bad.
We have no reason to care about any of the characters now. They have no internal conflict, and all ties to the past are severed. The state of the saga is exactly the same as it was in the OT, except with no internal conflict in any character. Do they not only found a way to tell the exact same story at the OT, but they actually made it worse. That will show the fans!

MrKlaw · Dec 25, 2017

I was fine with the chase/siege. I realised it was just a plot device but went along with it and it wasn't jarring or annoying. Perhaps with the rebels escaping in previous encounters, Hux maybe wants to be more cautious and is comfortable as long as he has the rebels in their sights.

Rose was a good character but yes, a little on the nose during Canto blight (way too long). 'How did Finn get her back on the salt flats?' is just nitpicking - maybe he got a lift from someone or fixed up one of the skimmers? The FO were too fixated on Luke to pay any attention

XAL · Dec 25, 2017

MrKlaw said:
I was fine with the chase/siege. I realised it was just a plot device but went along with it and it wasn't jarring or annoying. Perhaps with the rebels escaping in previous encounters, Hux maybe wants to be more cautious and is comfortable as long as he has the rebels in their sights.

Rose was a good character but yes, a little on the nose during Canto blight (way too long). 'How did Finn get her back on the salt flats?' is just nitpicking - maybe he got a lift from someone or fixed up one of the skimmers? The FO were too fixated on Luke to pay any attention

It's fucking stupid when you realize they could have sent one of their many many many star destroyers ahead via lightspeed, not even that far, and cut them off.

Rose was a good character up until she almost kills herself and Finn to deliver a cringeworthy line that makes no fucking sense AND they further undercut her character by conjuring up a forced romance with Finn out of nowhere, then falls into a coma. I just didn't even remotely buy it.

leder · Dec 25, 2017

Can we please stop the stupid meme of calling any and all criticism "hot takes", as if differing opinions only exist to get attention?

Aftermath · Dec 25, 2017

Bor Gullet said:
Harvey Dent... can we trust him?

Noooooooo

Lol

Rendering... · Dec 25, 2017

Zukuu said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Like even if you love the movie to death for various reasons, you can't argue away the ridiculous plot with the slow-chase and Canto Blight and what not. That is anything, but not "well written".

I would have spent more time on this response if you'd left out the childish first bit, but anyway...

The slow chase is a standard dramatic conceit with a clear purpose: to set the stage for characters (Finn and Poe especially, but not just them) to make choices that drive their growth and lead to new challenges for them to overcome. It might not be as elegant as you'd like, and you're free to poke holes in the idea of a slow chase if you want to, but it's not some dumb event that happens for no reason. It's integral to the plot and the character arcs woven throughout it. It allows for a lot of dramatically interesting scenes and satisfying character moments. It illustrates the two sides and the stakes of their conflict by literally juxtaposing both forces onscreen. Visual metaphors like the chase are useful when you're telling a story for an extremely diverse audience with a widely varied grasp on the details and history of your fictional world.

Canto Bight, before anything else, serves up a generous helping of world building. If you're not delighted by new settings and weird outfits, if you don't appreciate a space fantasy for the imaginative locales that imply a vast world beyond the screen, then what are you doing watching a Star Wars movie? Waiting impatiently to find out what happens to the main characters without bothering to appreciate how it happens? Go read a synopsis and save yourself some time then.

Of course, beyond world building, Canto Bight introduces us to the next generation of Force sensitives--which ties into one of the movie's broader themes: passing the torch to your successors--and also introduces Benicio Del Toro's character, a true mercenary whose later actions lead to the watershed moment of Finn deciding what he stands for. Most importantly, the whole setting, a playground for rich opportunists who profit from war, highlights the importance of the Resistance's struggle against the oppressive First Order and shows it to be a microcosm of a galaxy-wide conflict between the forces of liberty and exploitation, the haves and have-nots, the people who value life and those who seek power over the weak. The First Order and the Empire before it are instances of the same pattern in the great dialectic, as are the Resistance and the Rebellion.

Canto Bight has a place in TLJ's story. It drives character development and reinforces themes that echo through the entire Star Wars series.

CloudWolf · Dec 25, 2017

Lord Fagan said:
I keep wondering, since "I am your father!" has become iconic despite how contentious the concept behind it was, I'm wondering if the same thing will happen to...

"You come from nothing. You're nothing."

Probably not, the "I'm your father" moment is a proper twist, it recontextualizes Luke's struggle and adds a ton more stakes. People remember it because it's a shock for the fans and it has implications for the entire franchise.

The "You're nothing"-line isn't a twist, it changes nothing about the perception of the character, nothing about the motivations and adds zero stakes. It would've been a twist if she had grown up believing she was special and had the rug pulled from under her, but that isn't the case here, as Kylo Ren even says "But you knew that already".

Deleted member 22490 · Dec 25, 2017

Mondy said:
TLJ spoilers:

Ackbar is dead.

I already know. I got spoiled on it by watching the film.

CloudWolf · Dec 25, 2017

JDSpades said:
As a whole, the movie was well written. It pushed the franchise into a much needed new direction. A direction that I wouldn't have trusted JJ to go in.

Serious question here: what exactly is the new direction this movie pushed the franchise in? Because I really do not see it. At the end of the movie you know exactly how the next one is going to play out. Resistance vs. First Order, Jedi vs. Dark side user. Rey will probably rebuild the Jedi Order and train new Jedi.

If anything, The Last Jedi's second act is more like a little sidetrack from the main road.

MrKlaw · Dec 25, 2017

XAL said:
It's fucking stupid when you realize they could have sent one of their many many many star destroyers ahead via lightspeed, not even that far, and cut them off.

Rose was a good character up until she almost kills herself and Finn to deliver a cringeworthy line that makes no fucking sense AND they further undercut her character by conjuring up a forced romance with Finn out of nowhere, then falls into a coma. I just didn't even remotely buy it.

Rose almost killing herself is silly - it was a pretty standard move to cut someone up/barge into them and something you see elsewhere too.

The rebel fleet could turn away from a star destroyer - you'd need to get lots of them to all light speed in to a sphere surrounding them to cut off all escape routes. Maybe possible but at that point just let it go as a plot device. Additionally it works considering the way Star Wars uses capitol ships almost as Navy vessels - they don't tend to bounce around in hyperspace a lot.

Septimus Prime · Dec 25, 2017

MrKlaw said:
Rose almost killing herself is silly - it was a pretty standard move to cut someone up/barge into them and something you see elsewhere too.

So, about that. How did she even do it? Finn was going straight forward at top speed, using the same type of ship. What was Rose's trajectory that she could intercept him like that?

Dragon Puncher · Dec 25, 2017

Most of those responses seemed more like people discussing the parts of the movie, than direct criticism.

It certainly doesn't sound like how diverse Last Jedi has been.

I will say though, when I first saw last Jedi (probably when I was 8-10) I really hated how abrupt it ended. It took me years to get past it.

Surfinn · Dec 25, 2017

Wow. Hot takes are that old?

Deleted member 1589 · Dec 25, 2017

I loved TLJ, I thought it was great, even despite some issues.

Like all Star Wars movies out there.

Also I'm not surprised fans still put ESB on a pedestal. Not that it isn't a good movie mind you, but like the aforementioned it was great despite its flaws.

Also not surprised some are finding Rose' more attractive sister more intriguing than her. Whatever rocks your boat man.

MrKlaw · Dec 25, 2017

Septimus Prime said:
So, about that. How did she even do it? Finn was going straight forward at top speed, using the same type of ship. What was Rose's trajectory that she could intercept him like that?

She would have just changed down a gear and floored it - the same move that allows any movie car travelling at top speed to immediately go even faster

ESB is a good OT movie because it exists in context with New Hope and RotJ bookending it. I can imagine it being a bit frustrating when it was initially shown, and having to wait two years for Jedi

Deleted member 6949 · Dec 25, 2017

Robert L. Beedy from Scarola wants a paternity test XD

ThereAreFourNaan · Dec 25, 2017

Only time will tell how a film is to be remembered. It's not a secret that the original Star Wars aged well and was remembered very fondly in comparison to it's contemporary critical reception. There's no point trying to extrapolate from now. All people can share are their current opinions and that is fine.

mangopositive · Dec 25, 2017

While we're poking holes in Star Wars, can you guys believe they went with swords that produce a concentrated laser that stops after 3 feet? THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!

JCHandsom · Dec 25, 2017

Those are some eerily similar complaints I must say.

Mass_Pincup · Dec 25, 2017

Thatguy said:
But

Kylo kills Snoke and becomes the emperor. Luke out wits him. Rey becomes a force wizard and helps everyone escape. Everyone wins. It's not fan hubris to be in expectation of a good story. That's just any average person walking into a theater. TLJ shockingly ditches good story writing for bad.
We have no reason to care about any of the characters now. They have no internal conflict, and all ties to the past are severed. The state of the saga is exactly the same as it was in the OT, except with no internal conflict in any character. Do they not only found a way to tell the exact same story at the OT, but they actually made it worse. That will show the fans!

That's not really true. You have Finn's conflict between his relationship with Rose and Rey. Poe is most likely going to raise through the rank of the Rebellion/Ressistance so he's going to need learn how to lead while expanding the scope and size of it. Rey will learn and interpret the Jedi text while coming to terms with her place in the story and making her own destiny. And Kylo Ren will need to juggle between his impulsiveness and leading the First Order with Hux.

There's still stuff that can be explored even though TLJ wasn't particularly great.

ZackieChan · Dec 25, 2017

Surfinn said:
Wow. Hot takes are that old?

Back in my day, the takes were super hot

TheChuggernaut · Dec 25, 2017

mangopositive said:
While we're poking holes in Star Wars, can you guys believe they went with swords that produce a concentrated laser that stops after 3 feet? THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!

The death star is what really broke my suspension of disbelief. You expect to believe that small ass laser can destroy a whole planet? And they expect me to believe this all powerful Empire would overlook a design flaw like a hole in the Death Star that makes it blow up if you shoot it? Like come the fuck on. What a terrible script.

Tonedeff · Dec 25, 2017

I always imagined that the critical response to all my faves were far more conflicted at the time of release. Which is good, it would be wierd the other way. Wouldn't mind seeing fan responses to Golden Age classics

CHC · Dec 25, 2017

Bronx-Man said:
Lmaooooooooo

r/TheRedpill decades before it even existed

I was going to say.... 0% chance that that letter is actually from anyone named "Carol."

Angel DvA · Dec 25, 2017

Zelas said:
I'd bet someone else who was way too invested and couldn't handle criticism did the exact same thing in defense of the prequel films.

That's definitely this, the Era defense force for this movie is ridiculous, whataboutism, calling people out, dog piling etc... are pretty common in every thread.

ESB has problem, all SW movies have problem, TLJ has more, time to move on, it'll never be as recognized or cult as ESB is.

Shatty McKracken · Dec 25, 2017

If the OT had to try and survive the crushing amount of internet scrutiny of today, they would never have turned out to be the classics that they are.

SurrenderDorothy · Dec 25, 2017

BossAttack said:
Let's not pretend that TLJ is anywhere near ESB in terms of quality, also I'm tired of the "ESB got mixed reactions" defense. I liked TLJ, I like it even more than safe TFA, but it has glaring issues; editing, pacing, and humor being primary ones. However, acting as though the film is just misunderstood right now is just poor deflection of the film's actual criticism. Otherwise, if the ESB defense is true, then AOTC should be recognized as one of the best movies any day now.

I'll say it. I put TLJ right next to ESB.

New Fang · Dec 25, 2017

No amount of explaining is going to convince me TLJ was a good movie and Rian Johnson handled it well.

Rian should have had the sense to save force powered Skype calls, Mary Poppins miracles, and force holograms for his original trilogy years from now. The second movie in this trilogy was not the place to tear everything up and rewrite the universe. I feel terrible for JJ Abrams and what he has been left with for episode 9.

Big One · Dec 25, 2017

demosthenes said:
Please tell me what we knew about the emperor from the first movie.

We knew the Emperor overthrew the Republic via politics, we knew that his goal was to rule the galaxy, and we knew his real name all by the release of Episode 4 in theaters. You had to look to material like the novelization to get to it but it was there out in the open. The only thing we know about Snoke is his name and he's a dark side user that seduced Ben Solo to the dark side.

Alimnassor · Dec 25, 2017

I find it stiupid nobody knew snoke. Hello a powerful Sith randomly shows up and nobody asks why

Voytek · Dec 25, 2017

People trying awfully hard to convince others that they should love TLJ. Why? Who cares? If you liked it good for you. I didn't and nothing you could say or do will ever change that.

Deleted member 19218 · Dec 25, 2017

New Fang said:
No amount of explaining is going to convince me TLJ was a good movie and Rian Johnson handled it well.

Rian should have had the sense to save force powered Skype calls, Mary Poppins miracles, and force holograms for his original trilogy years from now. The second movie in this trilogy was not the place to tear everything up and rewrite the universe. I feel terrible for JJ Abrams and what he has been left with for episode 9.

It does seem strange that he gets to do episode 8 and a whole new trilogy.

They should have just let JJ do 7, 8 and 9 and then Rian does 10, 11 and 12.

They both get a trilogy each. I wonder how Rian managed to land four films. He's good though but I would have loved to of seem what JJ had in store for the characters after Episode 7 finished.

ThisThingIsUseful · Dec 25, 2017

BossAttack said:
Let's not pretend that TLJ is anywhere near ESB in terms of quality, also I'm tired of the "ESB got mixed reactions" defense. I liked TLJ, I like it even more than safe TFA, but it has glaring issues; editing, pacing, and humor being primary ones. However, acting as though the film is just misunderstood right now is just poor deflection of the film's actual criticism. Otherwise, if the ESB defense is true, then AOTC should be recognized as one of the best movies any day now.

AOTC didn't get stellar critical reaction. TLJ and ESB both received great acclaim but a bit more of a mix from fans. The article even goes as far as to show the Starlog writer saying he feels guilty not liking ESB as much as he should since other critics are talking about how good it is. Editing, pacing are all criticisms leveled at ESB.

Also, some of us are saying TLJ may in fact be better than ESB since it's a great film.

BossAttack · Dec 25, 2017

ThisThingIsUseful said:
AOTC didn't get stellar critical reaction. TLJ and ESB both received great acclaim but a bit more of a mix from fans. The article even goes as far as to show the Starlog writer saying he feels guilty not liking ESB as much as he should since other critics are talking about how good it is. Editing, pacing are all criticisms leveled at ESB.

Also, some of us are saying TLJ may in fact be better than ESB since it's a great film.

No, that's wrong. Empire received mixed responses from BOTH critics and fans alike. It was not universally loved by critics upon its initial release. However, it eventually came to be recognized as one of the greatest films of all time. Let me reiterate that last part, because I didn't say one of the best Star Wars movies of all time. But, one of the GREATEST FILMS OF ALL TIME. Do you really think TLJ is that far up there? Like, I'm sure you might, but do you think critics will be looking back and thinking that years from now?

Michael F. Assbender · Dec 25, 2017

Those complaints point to people being upset at the fast pacing of ESB, which is different from the slower, start-and-stop pacing of TLJ.

Also, as one letter points out, ESB leaves a lot of threads dangling at the end (as the middle movie of a trilogy should), while TLJ leaves almost none.

That's not to say TLJ won't also age to become more appreciated later. But let's not pretend that just because a movie gets critical acclaim and slammed by moviegoers, that automatically means it's going to become recognized as a timeless classic in the future.

There are countless counter-examples of movies that critics love and audiences didn't that are now all but forgotten.

Poutine Runner 2049 · Dec 25, 2017

I dont remember ESB having scenes as bad as force flying in space or lines as cringeworthy as "its not about who you hate, its about who you love".

sphagnum · Dec 25, 2017

Poutine Runner 2049 said:
I dont remember ESB having scenes as bad as force flying in space or lines as cringeworthy as "its not about who you hate, its about who you love".

"Why you stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking nerf herder!"

Deleted member 8593 · Dec 25, 2017

It's funny because the OT has become for many of us like a religious text that you barely question. There's a lot of stupid and straight up problematic stuff in there. Doesn't make them bad movies, it's just worth realizing.

Whompa · Dec 25, 2017

Zukuu said:
I know nothing of any EU about Ackbar, but you see him in the OT and him still being around gives him same importance as Leia who fucking leads the entire thing. The the rebels within the movie-universe, anyway. It's just another example of Rian being so much blinded by his goal to do his "own" movie and cut ties to OT and TFA at any cost. TLJ is basically an 2 1/2 try to "undo" the previous movie. Luke's saber? Literally torn apart. Rey's parents? Nothing lol. Snorke? Lol just ded. Ben's resolution? Nah torn again... briefly. Luke being important teacher? Weird hermit that does nothing for Rey's character development. etc All of which is why the overarcing plot suffers so heavily and ends where it starts with little development in between. "Rebels are rising"... not like that was the fucking entire setup of the first movie or anything. He failed at producing a "sequel". Maybe TLJ would have worked better if it was the first movie in the trilogy. It just feels odd to undo everything in the middle-movie.

Yeah and that cold splash of water over the fans faces is exactly what this franchise needed.

Whompa · Dec 25, 2017

ThatWasAJoke said:
Ah yes, Geostorm received huge criticism upon release, but so did ESB! Checkmate Star Wars nerds - guess all you're criticisms are redundant now.

So did Blade Runner and The Thing

Tomasoares · Dec 25, 2017

XAL said:
It's fucking stupid when you realize they could have sent one of their many many many star destroyers ahead via lightspeed, not even that far, and cut them off.it.

They could've done it, but they didn't need it, they had the resistence in their hands, why waste more resources?

Deleted member 28461 · Dec 25, 2017

Jeannette Vogelpohl:

Somebody should tell Harrison Ford that when a woman tells a man, "I love you," "I know" is not an acceptable response. That scene was not funny, it was infuriating.

Yes, I was seething.

Futureman · Dec 25, 2017

So is the OP's implication that TLJ will be better regarded in the future just because ESB had some mixed reactions initially?

I think it's likely people won't really strongly remember any SW movie going forward. Twenty years from now there will be twenty more SW movies. I think it may take the franchise REALLY going somewhere new to create a new classic. I could be wrong though.

ourghostsofwar · Dec 25, 2017

I like the premise of the thread as it shows how interpretations have changed. It's bullshit that it means anything in regard to The Last Jedi. There's plenty of films that sucked in 1980 that still suck today. There's great ones like The Shining still considered great today.

Trey · Dec 25, 2017

Y'all off that molly water if you think anything in TLJ will ever manage to be as iconic as the "No, I am your father" scene. That's a popular culture foundation.

Doesn't take anything away from TLJ and what it does well.

Deleted member 21339 · Dec 25, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
I like the premise of the thread as it shows how interpretations have changed. It's bullshit that it means anything in regard to The Last Jedi. There's plenty of films that sucked in 1980 that still suck today. There's great ones like The Shining still considered great today.

Not sure The Shining was universally praised at the time either.

BlastProcessing · Dec 25, 2017

So I made this thread to talk about how people have always had hot takes.

Now I wake up to see it full of a bunch of posts that seem like they were made without even reading the linked article. I guess that's fitting.

More_Badass · Dec 25, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
I like the premise of the thread as it shows how interpretations have changed. It's bullshit that it means anything in regard to The Last Jedi. There's plenty of films that sucked in 1980 that still suck today. There's great ones like The Shining still considered great today.

The Shining and The Thing were met with mixed reactions when they released

StallionDan · Dec 25, 2017

Lord Fagan said:
I keep wondering, since "I am your father!" has become iconic despite how contentious the concept behind it was, I'm wondering if the same thing will happen to...

"You come from nothing. You're nothing."

No, because one was shocking and the other an anticlimax.

Trey · Dec 25, 2017

BlastProcessing said:
So I made this thread to talk about how people have always had hot takes.

Now I wake up to see it full of a bunch of posts that seem like they were made without even reading the linked article. I guess that's fitting.

The original premise doesn't have a lot of meat, so discussion was always going to go toward comparing TLJ and ESB's lasting legacy.

A look back at initial fan reactions to Empire Strikes back

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