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Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Just how bloody starved are you for visual stimulation that even the massive, unending reams of pornographic content on the Interwebz isn't enough for you?

Serious question. I can't understand it. Do you really need it shoved into everything you consume?

Not everything no

I don't think every game has a character like Cindy or Quiet, not even close

I enjoy fanservicey designs but as much as I've tried I can't get into the gameplay styles of Senran kagura, etc

I tend to enjoy the more mainstream open world style games, I enjoy the gameplay and a bonus is that some have the designs I like
 

Roytheone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,165
So warrior/bounty hunter look consists of a skintight catsuit and an 'I'm proud of these tiddies' pose, I see, I see.

It's a vast improvement over her look in previous games where she has no muscle mass at all and is still supposed to be a warrior. It's something that also annoys me about the dead or alive female fighters.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,420
The English Wilderness
Just how bloody starved are you for visual stimulation that even the massive, unending reams of pornographic content on the Interwebz isn't enough for you?

Serious question. I can't understand it. Do you really need it shoved into everything you consume?

This is a question I've been asking for the longest time, and I've still to hear a decent answer. If they love it so much, why don't they just watch porn and spare the rest of us their fetishes?
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
Link is an iconic character, but not an established one. He's a different person in every game with only tenuous connections to other ones.

A character is established if they are recognizable. An iconic character is a type of established character. This does not preclude them from being altered, evolved, or gender flipped.

Moreover, since it perfectly possible to make a Zelda game without "representative" character, it just tells us that any of the "can't be done in a different way" excuses are just weak ones.
.

Well then! I guess it's good that I'm not and have never made that argument!
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
A character is established if they are recognizable. An iconic character is a type of established character. This does not preclude them from being altered, evolved, or gender flipped.
No. An established character is one whose personality, attributes, and other characteristics are known. Link is literally a different person every game, so that is not true for him.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
This just in: If you think "attractive and provocative" female character designs are deplorable, then you're "really bigoted".

Not everything no

I don't think every game has a character like Cindy or Quiet, not even close

I enjoy fanservicey designs but as much as I've tried I can't get into the gameplay styles of Senran kagura, etc

I tend to enjoy the more mainstream open world style games, I enjoy the gameplay and a bonus is that some have the designs I like

Still, you didn't answer the question: what does this add to your life that porn can't cover?
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
Narratively, no. But my reasons aren't narrative. And it's easy to reduce one's reasons for not liking something down to zero if you ignore the reasons given. You can do that for anything. ALL of it is personal taste. Everything discussed in this thread can be distilled down to that if you ignore all the reasons why. I don't like characters being mutable unless they are established that way. I find gender flips of established characters its own form of lazy pandering. Here you go "tosses out a bone". I feel female characters deserve their own identities, not just "female version of". Those are reasons. Don't ignore them because you disagree with me and just want to reduce my argument to "doesn't like thing".

Ah, "pandering". Wondered how long it would take for that word to appear.

The character is already mutable. My point stands.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
This just in: If you think "attractive and provocative" female character designs are deplorable, then you're "really bigoted".



Still, you didn't answer the question: what does this add to your life that porn can't cover?

...*sigh*

Never fails to amaze how quickly threads about decent female character design descend into fanservice.

It's amazing how insular the gaming community has gotten over the years. It just sucks.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
This is a question I've been asking for the longest time, and I've still to hear a decent answer. If they love it so much, why don't they just watch porn and spare the rest of us their fetishes?

I think the divide comes down to whether or not you believe that sex and perversion should be celebrated or not. 2B is a good example of this. Yoko Taro just likes high heels and booty and people are offended that he would have the gaul to be so upfront about being somewhat of a pervert.
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
No. An established character is one whose personality, attributes, and other characteristics are known. Link is literally a different person every game, so that is not true for him.

He's really not though. Outside of the art style, he looks the same. His personality, what little of it there is, always includes selfless heroics and a bit of naivety. The only thing establishing his origins in any game is a couple minutes of story which could be changed to anything without changing him as a person in the slightest. That's as established as it gets. The reincarnation thing is window dressing. If you can toss two picture on a table and have someone walk up and say, that one is Link, that other one is not Link, then you have established a character. An iconic character is still a type of established character. Again, it comes down to being recognizable in association with something.

Ah, "pandering". Wondered how long it would take for that word to appear.

The character is already mutable. My point stands.

You have an argument in your head that you have assigned to me. And it is not the argument that I'm making.

I have made two distinct statements. One is a position that's being debated. That Link is an iconic character, and that Iconic characters are a type of established character because they are recognizable in association with something.

My second statement is not a position open for debate, as I did not and am not offering it as an argument against gender flipping Link. I stated that I don't like gender flipping established characters. I have a preference for original characters. I'm fine with Link as he is. I'd like to see Nintendo put more effort into new female characters. Best if they are in games of their own. That's all.

That is not an argument against female Link. That is not saying people who want female Link are wrong. That is simply, and only, my preference. The only reason I stated it all is because people in this thread are offering their preferences for things. I offered mine. It is different from what many others have said. That should not have been a problem. Are you saying my preference for original characters instead of gender swapped characters is wrong?
 
Last edited:

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
I think the divide comes down to whether or not you believe that sex and perversion should be celebrated or not. 2B is a good example of this. Yoko Taro just likes high heels and booty and people are offended that he would have the gaul to be so upfront about being somewhat of a pervert.

Billions of people like high heels and billions of people like booty. It's not being "somewhat of a pervert". Its really common behaviour.

And one of the biggest recent hits world wide was 50 shades of grey and millions of people loved it and that was about bondage and stuff like that. But Yoko Tato is the pervert.... yea right....

Happy new year by the way everyone here :-D

I hope you get even more games like Horizon and Lost Legacy this year

By the way, seeing Cindy or watching porn is not the same thing. Really strange comparison.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
He's really not though. Outside of the art style, he looks the same. His personality, what little of it there is, always includes selfless heroics and a bit of naivety. The only thing establishing his origins in any game is a couple minutes of story which could be changed to anything without changing him as a person in the slightest. That's as established as it gets. The reincarnation thing is window dressing. If you can toss two picture on a table and have someone walk up and say, that one is Link, that other one is not Link, then you have established a character. An iconic character is still a type of established character. Again, it comes down to being recognizable in association with something.
That just says that Link has some similarities from game to game. He's still a different person, so he can't be established.
 

Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
This is a question I've been asking for the longest time, and I've still to hear a decent answer. If they love it so much, why don't they just watch porn and spare the rest of us their fetishes?

Because they want their dicks to be constantly pleasured
 

Llyrwenne

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,209
Apologies to just burst in here with a mega-post, but the whole female Link / female protagonist for mainline Zelda thing has been on my mind for a while now. I would've probably eventually made a thread about it, but I know exactly how that is going to turn out and I just … do not have the energy for that. So I'll just put it here as there was some discussion about it earlier.

It turned out quite rant-y, so apologies in advance for that. .x.

This post is not directed at anyone here in specific.

---

Whenever someone says 'Well, then why not change Mario to be a girl? Or Lara Croft to be a man?' in a discussion about a female protagonist in The Legend of Zelda, I roll my eyes because those types of questions so completely and utterly miss the point. Nobody is asking for Mario to be a girl. Nobody is asking for Samus or Lara Croft to be a man. The Legend of Zelda comes up in these discussions about female protagonists because it has a specific history.

Part of it is statements like these from Aonuma;

"When a player is playing a Zelda game, my desire is for the player to truly become Link — that's why we named him Link, so the player is linked to the game and to the experience. Of course, the player can always change Link's name to their own name to further that notion should they want."

"The most important thing about the Zelda series is that the player becomes Link. One of the challenges with full voice is that if we're trying to convey the player's emotion through Link, but you hear Link talking in somebody else's voice, that creates a disconnect between you and the role that you're taking on."


Link, to many players, is an avatar. The above statements by Aonuma reinforce that belief. Link does not speak, because Link should be you - therefore Link cannot have an own voice. You can change Link's name, because Link should be you - therefore Link cannot have an own name. You may disagree with this interpretation of Link as an avatar and say that they are moving away from the idea of 'Link as an avatar' - something which you can probably also find Aonuma quotes in support for -, but that does not erase these previous statements and the expectations or interpretations some have built on them.

It's stories like a father hacking The Wind Waker for his daughter so that it refers to main character as female. Or another parent replacing all references to Link as male in A Link to the Past with gender-neutral language so that their daughter can enjoy the game later in her life without the hard-coded male gender aspect for the protagonist. People modding Zelda to, you know, actually star Zelda.

It's how the franchise has a built-in excuse if it would ever want to change the gender of the main character; these are all different Links, different incarnations, re-incarnations. A new incarnation could just happen to turn out female, and basically zero explanation would be required for that as that explanation is essentially already built into the lore.

Then there's the fact that the series is literally named after a female character - perhaps some feel she deserves the spotlight for once?

The desire for a female protagonist in a Zelda game is genuine - it didn't spring out of nowhere.

When Aonuma said this in a 2014 Kotaku interview;

"The main character isn't actually Link—it's the player. Of course we have to have a main character in the story, so Link is that main character. But I don't want him to be like a superhero. I want him to represent any player, have that possibility. So that's why I don't really know if we need or want to define it so clearly.

So there are actually many female characters you can play as in Hyrule Warriors. We've introduced Midna, we've introduced Princess Zelda, and Impa as well. So if that connection needs to be there—I'm not saying that it does—let's see what happens with Hyrule Warriors, if as a result of there being more female protagonists, more women pick up the game, I'm all for it, so I've decided to see what happens with this title."


You can probably understand why some people got excited.

So when he then followed that up in 2016 with;

"You know there's the idea of the Triforce in the Zelda games we make," he told Kotaku. "The Triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female. If we made Link a female we thought that would mess with the balance of the Triforce. That's why we decided not to do it."

"...if we have princess Zelda as the main character who fights, then what is Link going to do? Taking into account that, and also the idea of the balance of the Triforce, we thought it best to come back to this [original] makeup."


You can probably understand why those people were very disappointed.

I personally found Aonuma's 2016 statements very lacking. They felt like an evasion. An evasion of responsibility through attributing his creative decision to an element of the lore that he then does not further explain. Did he not also create that element of the lore? And why is that element so important? It seems like a completely arbitrary 'balance' - one I never consciously noticed or identified as crucial to the franchise because the concept of it seems entirely arbitrary and unimportant to the overall games. How does having a female protagonist 'upset' that 'balance' anyway?

Those statements came off to me as Aonuma claiming that he does not have the power to do something, because something he supposedly cannot control would be 'messed with'. Yet that thing that would be 'messed with' is something of his own creation too. Something he can entirely control. As the author, he controls everything. He can change things to suit his every need. And he has. Nintendo has.

Take the idea of a Zelda timeline for example. Miyamoto gave a general order to put the games in after a few were out, yet after that there was nothing for a while. Aonuma indicated a split timeline with comments he made about Twilight Princess, but at the same time made no commitment to a complete interlinked timeline involving all games. Certain games were clearly linked in story or lore, but others were not. Nintendo denied a timeline existed at all. Then in 2011, both the Hyrule Historia and Skyward Sword were released - Hyrule Historia containing an 'official' timeline including all games, Skyward Sword seeming like an attempt to create an origin for the franchise and an effort to tie key elements of the franchise to this one origin point. The 'official' timeline did not line up with the Miyamoto order, and introduced an unanticipated third timeline to the split. Lore was changed or added to make some of the connections work.

Then just recently, Aonuma backed off again - claiming that the timeline is not something that concerns him, that it is something that isn't considered when creating a Zelda game, that he likes to leave it 'up to the imagination' of others.

The timeline, what it looks like, whether it exists, whether it is even important or relevant - those are all things that changed over time to suit the needs of Nintendo / Aonuma. Things they changed to suit their needs or views. Because they are the author, and thus they control everything.

Breath of the Wild arguably changed what a Zelda game is through a different gameplay focus and the introduction of new systems and a more open world than ever before. In Twilight Princess, Link was a wolf with an alternate-dimension side-kick. In The Minish Cap, Link had a talking hat that allowed him to shrink. In the Wind Waker, Link had a talking lion boat and Zelda was a kick-ass pirate with a different name for a while. In Spirit Tracks, Zelda was a ghost-sidekick whom you could have possess suits of armor and Link was a train driver. Link's Awakening didn't have Zelda. Majora's Mask barely had Zelda. The Oracle games did not have Zelda unless you linked them. Ganon / Ganondorf is not present in some eight games in the series. Vaati had nothing to do with the Triforce. Breath of the Wild has a horse motorcycle. One of the concepts for Breath of the Wild had an alien invasion as part of the story.

New lore can always be added. Old lore can always be retconned, otherwise amended, or expanded upon. As the author, Aonuma holds the power to change anything he wants, whenever he wants, for whatever reason, and he has done so in the past because that is inherent to being an author.

This idea that Aonuma cannot think of anything for Link to do if Link is not the main character, this idea that Aonuma cannot think of any way to circumvent an entirely fictional concept that he himself created, this idea that Aonuma is somehow unable to think of a way to support a female protagonist - that is something I find almost insulting in the context of all the above. He can change whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and for whatever reason. That he claims that he cannot when talking about a female protagonist is something I take issue with, because it means that he is either creatively incompetent in this specific space, or not being honest with us about why he made the decision.

But I'm happy to provide him with some ideas!

Have Zelda be the protagonist with Link being the 'dude in distress'. Could just play that straight, or you could put a twist on it. Like; a young new Zelda is being trained by an older, more experienced Link. Due to his experience and wisdom, the Triforce of Wisdom passes on to that older Link - losing the Triforce of Courage in the process. Then Link is the one who gets in trouble, and the younger Zelda takes it upon herself to fix everything - ending with the Triforce of Courage passing down to her for her display of courage. If you feel that that messes with the 'balance' too much, you can always just say that it was a 'quirk of fate' - that the Triforce acted outside its usual limits due to unforeseen circumstances. You don't even need to explicitly say that; hinting at it would be more than enough.

Have Zelda and Link both be protagonists (with us either getting a choice at the start a la Dishonored 2, or switch between them over the course of the story a la GTAV), taking on the big bad together. This would allow for both to be fully formed characters and to perhaps explore their relationship and individual characters more than we have in the past.

Just have Zelda be the protagonist with no Link in sight - there are already periods in the lore where there is no Link, and there are games that barely reference Zelda, so this shouldn't be an issue, right?

Maybe have a new incarnation of Link be female instead - or potentially give us that choice at the start. Because… well, I don't think you even have to provide a specific additional lore reason for that to work.

If we go further on the 'Link as an avatar' route, maybe just have the player be able to select the pronouns they are referred by. I know that plenty of people would be happy with even just that.

Maybe just have the protagonist be a new female character because … well, just because. Again, just call it 'a quirk in the Triforce' if you really feel that it needs to be explained through lore. Perhaps the big bad is killing or imprisoning all young Hylian boys as a precaution, and this causes a female character to take action - a show of courage that the Triforce of Courage then responds to. Heck, doesn't even need to be a human / 'Hylian' character at that point - open it up to Zora and Nabooru and whatever else you feel fits.

I could go on, but this post is getting pretty long and I should stop at some point.

There are just so many cool and interesting things they could do with a female protagonist in this franchise. I wish more people would see it that way instead of dismissing it outright. I wish Aonuma would see it that way.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,023
I remember having a conversation with someone about female Link a couple of months before the game out, where they said that it'd be misandrist for them to ever do that, and straight up admitted it'd ruin his childhood if they ever did it. I didn't know it was that deep lmfao
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
By the way, seeing Cindy or watching porn is not the same thing. Really strange comparison.
How in the world is it not the same thing?!

The only reason for Cindy to be dressed up the way she is, especially given her profession, is purely to pander towards the (cis-het) male gaze. It is effectively soft porn whether you admit it or not. Even moreso when you look at the car washing scenes... seriously, it is the same thing. Exactly the same thing.

Let's put that into perspective: this shit is so normalized that people don't bat an eye at Square Enix stuffing soft porn scenes into their bloody sprawling epic action RPG. That's kind of fucked, dude.
I think the divide comes down to whether or not you believe that sex and perversion should be celebrated or not. 2B is a good example of this. Yoko Taro just likes high heels and booty and people are offended that he would have the gaul to be so upfront about being somewhat of a pervert.
For the last time, sexualization and objectification =/= sex and perversion(? - where does perversion enter into this?). They are two separate issues and we have been trying over and over again to get it into your head that they are two separate things that we have different feelings about.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
If it is porn why is FFXV allowed to have a teen rating or even lower?
Like I just said... because it's normalized. No one bats an eye at a woman who's dressed obscenely poorly for the job she's doing in a video game because it is literally the norm. Women who are actually dressed properly for what they're doing are still a rarity in Japanese games in particular (NA & EU games being considerably more positive in this respect, though obviously still not perfect by any means).

Guys are so used to being serviced in this way that even the ratings boards just don't give a toss.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
Like I just said... because it's normalized. No one bats an eye at a woman who's dressed obscenely poorly for the job she's doing in a video game because it is literally the norm. Women who are actually dressed properly for what they're doing are still a rarity in Japanese games in particular (NA & EU games being considerably more positive in this respect, though obviously still not perfect by any means).

Guys are so used to being serviced in this way that even the ratings boards just don't give a toss.

So you think FFXV should have a mature rating?
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,420
The English Wilderness
I remember having a conversation with someone about female Link a couple of months before the game out, where they said that it'd be misandrist for them to ever do that, and straight up admitted it'd ruin his childhood if they ever did it. I didn't know it was that deep lmfao

Seriously, just look at the reaction to the female Doctor Who. "It's unfair to men because it deprives boys of their only intelligent role model, as all other male role models are buff action heroes who beat people up."
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Yes, he can, as an icon. Is Link not iconic? Why? Is an icon not something with established recognizable traits that is associated with something? Why?
Link is mostly iconic for the way he looks. You can change his personality, his age, or any number of other things in a new game because it's literally a different person every time. You can't do that with an actually established character because established characters have set characteristics. Kratos in a new game is literally built on the Kratos established in the previous games because that's what being established means.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
So you think FFXV should have a mature rating?
Nah, I actually think Cindy should just get a redesign. Preferably with a tank top and actual pants.

That being said, being scared by a possible ratings change could have been a vehicle to get that redesign, so maybe?
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
Billions of people like high heels and billions of people like booty. It's not being "somewhat of a pervert". Its really common behaviour.
.

Being so open about it is what I'm referring to. Western studios like Blizzard and Gearsoft and a few others have reacted with hostility to R34 of their IPs and eastern devs have had to concoct very silly reasons to justify sexy character designs to western games journalists (skin breathing, etc) because they know how Americans, both conservative and liberal, are when it comes to sex.

How in the world is it not the same thing?!

The only reason for Cindy to be dressed up the way she is, especially given her profession, is purely to pander towards the (cis-het) male gaze. It is effectively soft porn whether you admit it or not. Even moreso when you look at the car washing scenes... seriously, it is the same thing. Exactly the same thing.

Let's put that into perspective: this shit is so normalized that people don't bat an eye at Square Enix stuffing soft porn scenes into their bloody sprawling epic action RPG. That's kind of fucked, dude.
For the last time, sexualization and objectification =/= sex and perversion(? - where does perversion enter into this?). They are two separate issues and we have been trying over and over again to get it into your head that they are two separate things that we have different feelings about.

The last few pages show a clear hostility towards what I specified. The example of 2B best highlights this. You have a great character with personality and depth but making the character sexy is just evil. The difference is pretty clear.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
Link is mostly iconic for the way he looks. You can change his personality, his age, or any number of other things in a new game because it's literally a different person every time. You can't do that with an actually established character because established characters have set characteristics. Kratos in a new game is literally built on the Kratos established in the previous games because that's what being established means.

Different person but clearly a person with similar personality and looks. Same goes for Zelda.

Not saying Link can't be a girl (I would like to see that!) but it's a bit stretched to say Link's looks and traits aren't established.
 

Abu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,019
😏
I remember having a conversation with someone about female Link a couple of months before the game out, where they said that it'd be misandrist for them to ever do that, and straight up admitted it'd ruin his childhood if they ever did it. I didn't know it was that deep lmfao

Lmfao. You fucking with us, right?

Oh god
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
The last few pages show a clear hostility towards what I specified. The example of 2B best highlights this. You have a great character with personality and depth but making the character sexy is just evil. The difference is pretty clear.
It's wrong to think of it as "evil" because no one is making that kind of accusation. The word is problematic; which means that there are aspects of a character that is not positive. It's perfectly okay to like a problematic character, or to like games that have problematic aspects.

Different person but clearly a person with similar personality and looks. Same goes for Zelda.

Not saying Link can't be a girl (I would like to see that!) but it's a bit stretched to say Link's looks and traits aren't established.
That can have similar personality and looks. It wouldn't be hard for the creators to make wide scale changes. That's why no one really cares that versions like Toon Link exists.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Being so open about it is what I'm referring to. Western studios like Blizzard and Gearsoft and a few others have reacted with hostility to R34 of their IPs and eastern devs have had to concoct very silly reasons to justify sexy character designs to western games journalists (skin breathing, etc) because they know how Americans, both conservative and liberal, are when it comes to sex.


I would react badly too if I created a female character and people rip the model and start putting her in porn videos. It also doesn't help with IP image
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
Nah, I actually think Cindy should just get a redesign. Preferably with a tank top and actual pants.

That being said, being scared by a possible ratings change could have been a vehicle to get that redesign, so maybe?

You do understand that if Cindy would mean a mature rating that we are going towards islamic countries rating systems
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,403
Sure, I'm not saying you said it was sacrosanct. I'm saying it's not. And nothing really precludes having a different gender when the character literally changes every game. You don't like it, for whatever reason, okay. But many would enjoy it and see it as refreshing and interesting. There's still no real argument (narratively) against having a female Link except "I don't want it".
Nah dude. It's not just "I don't want/like it just because". I think you're being unfair to DragonKeeper here.

I, also, would not prefer "female versions" of established and iconic characters and would rather have a playable Zelda in her own adventure (no, the CDi games don't count) or a new heroine. Zelda is shown to be a capable fighter/warrior/adventurer/pirate/ninja/bard (?! XD) in several of the games, she'd be more than capable of carrying her own AAA adventure game.

It's one thing if the character is canonically reincarnated (I think Dr. Who is like that? not sure) at every iteration, or if the character is more of a symbol/title, or was never much of an established icon to begin with. Or if the character is from such an old story that modernizing it would make it more interesting (e.g. the female Dr. Watson in Elementary -- I never watched the show but I don't have a big problem with that). But a female Link would most likely not even stand out as her own character. She'd just be "female Link". I'm not a fan of Mrs. Male Character and that's pretty much what a female Link would be.

That said, if they ever make a Zelda game where you play a Female-Link, well, cool. I'm not gonna object, haha. But it's not really ideal.

You have a great character with personality and depth but making the character sexy is just evil.
Who said it's "just evil"?

You really, really need to knock it off with the disingenuous strawman. It's dishonest and tiresome.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
So yes I understand you can be annoyed by Quiet or Cindy


But thoughts of putting mature ratings on those games or using it as threats are really not the right way to go forward I think
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
are we seriously still at the "you think sexy female characters are bad!!" stage. have we really not gone a single step forward in 183 pages
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
Apologies to just burst in here with a mega-post, but the whole female Link / female protagonist for mainline Zelda thing has been on my mind for a while now. I would've probably eventually made a thread about it, but I know exactly how that is going to turn out and I just … do not have the energy for that. So I'll just put it here as there was some discussion about it earlier.

Thanks for that post, it gave quite a bit of background information on this topic.
As was mentioned earlier, the excuses from Nintendo are pretty weasily and disappointing. Although, it was really interesting to hear about those family experiences where they patched the games to allow the daughters to self-insert into the protagonist.

I honestly don't want/care about a female Link. Link is an established character, he's always a little blond elf dude wearing green. K, whatever.

Just give me a playable Zelda FFS. In a mainline Zelda game of course. The game series is named after her! Give poor Zelda her own adventure already.

#fuckLink #teamZelda
I guess I'll toss in my opinion here since it dissents a bit. I don't want a female Link. I don't like characters that just flip a gender switch and suddenly "female version of male character". Link is an established and iconic character and I don't need or particularly want him to be anything else. I don't really need Zelda to replace him either, though I'd love to see a game that uses them as playable co-stars (got the perfect premise too). Or a game where Zelda is not playable but does not need to be rescued. There are plenty of things a non playable character can do that has them active and helping instead of needing help. I want to see the Zelda games continue to improve, but I do not need or want them to replace their main characters. I happen to like Link as he is. I'd rather see Nintendo continue to diversify their IP portfolio and have that include many more female characters who are uniquely themselves, and not "versions" of established characters. All told, I'm pretty happy with Nintendo's games. Only Fire Emblem and now Xenoblade are on my shit lists (and Metroid at one point but Returns was good stuff and hopefully Prime 4 will continue the trajectory).

Interesting takes on this. I assumed everyone here would have been aiming for a potentially female link, I get where everyone is coming from though.
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
Link is mostly iconic for the way he looks. You can change his personality, his age, or any number of other things in a new game because it's literally a different person every time. You can't do that with an actually established character because established characters have set characteristics. Kratos in a new game is literally built on the Kratos established in the previous games because that's what being established means.

A personality is established in a narrative by a few means. You can hear what a character is thinking or you can hear their conversation and how people react to them and you can see a character's actions. Link is barely there but silent or no, he still has conversations with people and they still react to him and his actions are already established by the narrative. You can fill in the blanks with your own perspectives but you can do that with any character, silent or no. There is no good or evil route. There is no heroic or renegade route. The story is told before you start the game and Link's place in that story is not adjustable. Maybe you get a dialog box choice but only one choice is the right one to move you forward. You do not get to change who Link is in the game, only in your head.

Silent protagonists do not work as intended for me. Llyrwenne wrote a detailed post on what Aonuma and whoever else at Nintendo intended for Link and I'd call most of that a failure in execution. Link isn't a character you can shape and he's not in a game where you can make choices that reflect your version of the character. Also the time line is a hack job they aren't going to follow anyway. Intentions are one thing, what they actually have done and built and established is another. That's why I call him iconic and established. They created a distinct character whether they meant to or not. It's the different between Link and Doctor Who. It comes down to the established details. Link is always the same. Each Doctor Who is recognizably a different person. Different look, different personality. No one Doctor is an icon for the whole series. Link and Doctor Who don't have the same feel in character establishment. I'm thrilled there's finally a female Doctor. She, like all who came before her, will be a distinct, original character. I like original characters.

Nah dude. It's not just "I don't want/like it just because". I think you're being unfair to DragonKeeper here.

I, also, would not prefer "female versions" of established and iconic characters and would rather have a playable Zelda in her own adventure (no, the CDi games don't count) or a new heroine. Zelda is shown to be a capable fighter/warrior/adventurer/pirate/ninja/bard (?! XD) in several of the games, she'd be more than capable of carrying her own AAA adventure game.

It's one thing if the character is canonically reincarnated (I think Dr. Who is like that? not sure) at every iteration, or if the character is more of a symbol/title, or was never much of an established icon to begin with. Or if the character is from such an old story that modernizing it would make it more interesting (e.g. the female Dr. Watson in Elementary -- I never watched the show but I don't have a big problem with that). But a female Link would most likely not even stand out as her own character. She'd just be "female Link". I'm not a fan of Mrs. Male Character and that's pretty much what a female Link would be.

That said, if they ever make a Zelda game where you play a Female-Link, well, cool. I'm not gonna object, haha. But it's not really ideal.
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Yes, this is my position.

Interesting takes on this. I assumed everyone here would have been aiming for a potentially female link, I get where everyone is coming from though.

And that's why I wrote it. We all agree on a lot of things here, but we aren't mental clones. Echo chambers can get hostile to people with different opinions right down to the minutia and reasons for those opinions can be ignored. Take a sledge hammer to that shit.
 
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4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
A personality is established in a narrative by a few means. You can hear what a character is thinking or you can hear their conversation and how people react to them and you can see a character's actions. Link is barely there but silent or no, he still has conversations with people and they still react to him and his actions are already established by the narrative. You can fill in the blanks with your own perspectives but you can do that with any character, silent or no. There is no good or evil route. There is no heroic or renegade route. The story is told before you start the game and Link's place in that story is not adjustable. Maybe you get a dialog box choice but only one choice is the right one to move you forward. You do not get to change who Link is in the game, only in your head.

Silent protagonists do not work as intended for me. Llyrwenne wrote a detailed post on what Aonuma and whoever else at Nintendo intended for Link and I'd call most of that a failure in execution. Link isn't a character you can shape and he's not in a game where you can make choices that reflect your version of the character. Also the time line is a hack job they aren't going to follow anyway. Intentions are one thing, what they actually have done and built and established is another. That's why I call him iconic and established. They created a distinct character whether they meant to or not. It's the different between Link and Doctor Who. It comes down to the established details. Link is always the same. Each Doctor Who is recognizably a different person. Different look, different personality. No one Doctor is an icon for the whole series. Link and Doctor Who don't have the same feel in character establishment. I'm thrilled there's finally a female Doctor. She, like all who came before her, will be a distinct, original character. I like original characters.
Sure, but that's on a per game basis; not carried forward from one game to the next.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Have Zelda be the protagonist with Link being the 'dude in distress'. Could just play that straight, or you could put a twist on it. Like; a young new Zelda is being trained by an older, more experienced Link. Due to his experience and wisdom, the Triforce of Wisdom passes on to that older Link - losing the Triforce of Courage in the process. Then Link is the one who gets in trouble, and the younger Zelda takes it upon herself to fix everything - ending with the Triforce of Courage passing down to her for her display of courage. If you feel that that messes with the 'balance' too much, you can always just say that it was a 'quirk of fate' - that the Triforce acted outside its usual limits due to unforeseen circumstances. You don't even need to explicitly say that; hinting at it would be more than enough.

I like everything about this idea except the Triforce stuff. Frankly (coming from the NES / SNES Zelda), I've never liked the Triforce pieces being literally part of characters. I dislike MacGuffins that are supposed to change fundamental properties of characters (unless it's the Matrix of Leadership, heh).

But I love the idea otherwise. Playing as a younger Zelda being trailed by an older Link is such a cool idea that I'm sad we're probably never going to see it. :(

Have Zelda and Link both be protagonists (with us either getting a choice at the start a la Dishonored 2, or switch between them over the course of the story a la GTAV), taking on the big bad together. This would allow for both to be fully formed characters and to perhaps explore their relationship and individual characters more than we have in the past.

Switchable characters where Link plays as his traditional self and Zelda plays as a caster would be freaking amazing (a bit like some Castlevania games like Portrait of Ruin do). I'm imagining Dragon's Dogma-like spells and man, wouldn't that be amazing in BotW's world. As an aside, thinking about spellcaster Zelda is giving me the itch to play some Hyrule Warriors or Smash Bros, hahah.

Just have Zelda be the protagonist with no Link in sight - there are already periods in the lore where there is no Link, and there are games that barely reference Zelda, so this shouldn't be an issue, right?

A Zelda without Link would feel wrong to me (as wrong as a Zelda without, well, Zelda), but I would love to see the roles reversed, where Zelda is a swordswoman and Link is a mage. I don't think either of them has to be in distress for the plot to work; this could also tie in with your first suggestion of Link being Zelda's mentor.

Maybe have a new incarnation of Link be female instead - or potentially give us that choice at the start. Because… well, I don't think you even have to provide a specific additional lore reason for that to work.

I'm fine with this too. I don't think there's anything that specifically has to state that Link and Zelda have to be of opposing genders.

If we go further on the 'Link as an avatar' route, maybe just have the player be able to select the pronouns they are referred by. I know that plenty of people would be happy with even just that.

Maybe just have the protagonist be a new female character because … well, just because. Again, just call it 'a quirk in the Triforce' if you really feel that it needs to be explained through lore. Perhaps the big bad is killing or imprisoning all young Hylian boys as a precaution, and this causes a female character to take action - a show of courage that the Triforce of Courage then responds to.

This is probably my least favorite option (and I'm guessing yours too, hence why it's last). I'd much rather have either playable Zelda, or female Link; these characters make Zelda games what they are, IMHO.

Heck, doesn't even need to be a human / 'Hylian' character at that point - open it up to Zora and Nabooru and whatever else you feel fits.

OK, I changed my mind: playing as a Zora or Gerudo character would be awesome.

Man, I so wish they make a Majora's Mask BotW sequel and we get a Gerudo mask...

I think the divide comes down to whether or not you believe that sex and perversion should be celebrated or not.

I think the divide comes from people who understand the difference between sex / perversion, and objectification / sexualization, or not. And for the record, I find Yoko Taro's frankness about his tastes refreshing.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
This is a question I've been asking for the longest time, and I've still to hear a decent answer. If they love it so much, why don't they just watch porn and spare the rest of us their fetishes?
I'm fine with there being less fanservice, but I'd be lying if I said I only wanted it in games like Senran Kagura. It's just another layer of something I enjoy. Usually just plain fan service isn't enough for me. I've dropped manga that otherwise catered to my taste because I didn't like the characters.

I can't say why I don't just settle for porn. Sometimes you just want something more with it. It's a bit like how some people find a woman wearing clothes more attractive then just a woman being naked.

I wish I could give you a definitive answer but I can't.
Never fails to amaze how quickly threads about decent female character design descend into fanservice.
It doesn't help that some people can't decide what qualifies as "fanservice."

Like calling a woman wearing a dress with a leg slit a prostitute. Or calling a design terrible because the woman has heels.
 

Llyrwenne

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,209
A personality is established in a narrative by a few means. You can hear what a character is thinking or you can hear their conversation and how people react to them and you can see a character's actions. Link is barely there but silent or no, he still has conversations with people and they still react to him and his actions are already established by the narrative. You can fill in the blanks with your own perspectives but you can do that with any character, silent or no. There is no good or evil route. There is no heroic or renegade route. The story is told before you start the game and Link's place in that story is not adjustable. Maybe you get a dialog box choice but only one choice is the right one to move you forward. You do not get to change who Link is in the game, only in your head.

Silent protagonists do not work as intended for me. Llyrwenne wrote a detailed post on what Aonuma and whoever else at Nintendo intended for Link and I'd call most of that a failure in execution. Link isn't a character you can shape and he's not in a game where you can make choices that reflect your version of the character. Also the time line is a hack job they aren't going to follow anyway. Intentions are one thing, what they actually have done and built and established is another. That's why I call him iconic and established. They created a distinct character whether they meant to or not. It's the different between Link and Doctor Who. It comes down to the established details. Link is always the same. Each Doctor Who is recognizably a different person. Different look, different personality. No one Doctor is an icon for the whole series. Link and Doctor Who don't have the same feel in character establishment. I'm thrilled there's finally a female Doctor. She, like all who came before her, will be a distinct, original character. I like original characters.

Yes, this is my position.
To be entirely clear, I don't take any issue with anything you (or Morrigan) said. I fully support / understand / agree with below -
I don't really need Zelda to replace him either, though I'd love to see a game that uses them as playable co-stars (got the perfect premise too). Or a game where Zelda is not playable but does not need to be rescued. There are plenty of things a non playable character can do that has them active and helping instead of needing help. I want to see the Zelda games continue to improve, but I do not need or want them to replace their main characters. I happen to like Link as he is. I'd rather see Nintendo continue to diversify their IP portfolio and have that include many more female characters who are uniquely themselves, and not "versions" of established characters.
While I've personally mostly seen Link more as an avatar than a character, I can also fully understand not seeing it that way. That's fine.

The point of that first part was more to provide an explanation as to why The Legend of Zelda is the primary subject of these types of discussions to those who seem to not understand that. I didn't intend to present that 'Link as an avatar' interpretation as the only valid interpretation. Apologies if it came off as such. Main point of the rest of the post was not that they need to handle it a specific way, but more that Nintendo's / Aonuma's comments on this have not been satisfactory in the slightest, and that they can and should do better, and that it is absolutely not hard at all for them to do better. Some of your / Morrigan 's proposals I mentioned too, and they could even improve a bunch without even having a female player character if they just had Zelda do something different than just waiting for Link to save the day for once.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
I'm fine with there being less fanservice, but I'd be lying if I said I only wanted it in games like Senran Kagura. It's just another layer of something I enjoy. Usually just plain fan service isn't enough for me. I've dropped manga that otherwise catered to my taste because I didn't like the characters.

I can't say why I don't just settle for porn. Sometimes you just want something more with it. It's a bit like how some people find a woman wearing clothes more attractive then just a woman being naked.

I wish I could give you a definitive answer but I can't.

It doesn't help that some people can't decide what qualifies as "fanservice."

Like calling a woman wearing a dress with a leg slit a prostitute. Or calling a design terrible because the woman has heels.
That design you keep defending in the other thread let's you see amble cleavage (and of course she's very large chested and her boobs are unnaturally gravity defying) and a large slit which goes alll the way up to her waist and if she moved even slightly would let you see her pants and you wonder why people have a problem with it? Also, maybe try and wear a pair of really high heels for any length of time and again, you'll see why people have a problem with it.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,403
Oh yeah. To be clear, Aonuma's excuse for not making Link female was ridiculous and pathetic nonsense. No argument there!
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
I've played all but the party game style ones. How is he not?
Think of it this way, part of what makes a character established is to know what he has done and how he reacted to events. Since Link is a different person every time, how is his character established when you first start a new game?

I'm fine with there being less fanservice, but I'd be lying if I said I only wanted it in games like Senran Kagura. It's just another layer of something I enjoy. Usually just plain fan service isn't enough for me. I've dropped manga that otherwise catered to my taste because I didn't like the characters.
I honestly don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with wanting to look at attractive women. The problem is when sexual attractiveness is the primary consideration for designing a female character, and everything else is sacrificed for that goal. It's horribly out of place in a lot of games, and ends up both detracting from them and normalizing hypersexualization.

It doesn't help that some people can't decide what qualifies as "fanservice."

Like calling a woman wearing a dress with a leg slit a prostitute. Or calling a design terrible because the woman has heels.
The idea of character design is to use visual tools to confer information on what a character is like. The problem is that, in a fighting game, a character's design should communicate what she is capable of in combat in the like. Putting a woman in a cocktail dress and heels doesn't do anything to tell us about her personality or how she fights or anything useful like that, so it'd be an example of a pretty bad character design.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
Aya Brea doesnt get often mentioned but she really is a great character and I love the first Parasite Eve too
 
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