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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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since sexualized Ryu was brought up:
that would be something of a start. The pants would need more openings.
All I'm seeing is the hitherto unseen Joseph Joestar that came between Parts 2 and 3 of JJBA...
Count me with the people who don't want a girl version of Link, for the same reasons Morrigan stated. I'd be into playable Zelda, though.
The question of what sexually objectified male characters would look like has come up a few times in this thread, and it's got me thinking about a few things;
1) The question itself makes it clear that cis, straight men have essentially NO experience with being objectified. When I was a preteen learning what objectification meant, it was more of a "oh so there's a word for that" feeling than having to grapple with the very concept.
2) I do think there are some niche products that have a straight female or gay male gaze (this is such a debate in academia, but I think the argument can be made that they exist), and I don't expect most people to have investigated those niches. But even mainstream rom coms have idealized male love interests, and it's fascinating to me to see so many guys not have any clue what women might find attractive. (And I think this dovetails with the incorrect belief that women "aren't visual" when it comes to sexual attraction.)
3) I also notice occasional confusion with the idea that male characters can be sexy. I've seen the sentiment that "of course men aren't sexualized, they're not the attractive ones! women are." But women are only The Singular Attractive Ones in a male-centered society. (I'm trying to say hegemonic without saying hegemonic because it's jargony, but I've got a terrible cold and my head is fuzzy so forgive me the awkward phrasing...) In reality, a huge portion of the human population finds men attractive, and, yep, sexy.
4) It's a close cousin to the question "what do you want female characters to look like then?" As if sexual objectification is the default. Because, really... it is the default. It's the default for fictional characters and, sadly, real women. It's all around us every single day. It affects how women think about ourselves and each other, and it affects how men treat and think about women too. It's really insidious. It's part of the cultural soup we're all swimming in.
I might write up a long post (in this thread, not a separate one. definitely don't want to deal with that...) about my experience realizing my own objectification and what a strange thing that is. It's hard to talk about, though, because I've never been anyone but myself. I don't know what it's like to not live with it. But I see so much misunderstanding from men — and some do seem to be trying — that I might give it a shot.
The question of what sexually objectified male characters would look like has come up a few times in this thread, and it's got me thinking about a few things;
1) The question itself makes it clear that cis, straight men have essentially NO experience with being objectified. When I was a preteen learning what objectification meant, it was more of a "oh so there's a word for that" feeling than having to grapple with the very concept.
2) I do think there are some niche products that have a straight female or gay male gaze (this is such a debate in academia, but I think the argument can be made that they exist), and I don't expect most people to have investigated those niches. But even mainstream rom coms have idealized male love interests, and it's fascinating to me to see so many guys not have any clue what women might find attractive. (And I think this dovetails with the incorrect belief that women "aren't visual" when it comes to sexual attraction.)
3) I also notice occasional confusion with the idea that male characters can be sexy. I've seen the sentiment that "of course men aren't sexualized, they're not the attractive ones! women are." But women are only The Singular Attractive Ones in a male-centered society. (I'm trying to say hegemonic without saying hegemonic because it's jargony, but I've got a terrible cold and my head is fuzzy so forgive me the awkward phrasing...) In reality, a huge portion of the human population finds men attractive, and, yep, sexy.
4) It's a close cousin to the question "what do you want female characters to look like then?" As if sexual objectification is the default. Because, really... it is the default. It's the default for fictional characters and, sadly, real women. It's all around us every single day. It affects how women think about ourselves and each other, and it affects how men treat and think about women too. It's really insidious. It's part of the cultural soup we're all swimming in.
I might write up a long post (in this thread, not a separate one. definitely don't want to deal with that...) about my experience realizing my own objectification and what a strange thing that is. It's hard to talk about, though, because I've never been anyone but myself. I don't know what it's like to not live with it. But I see so much misunderstanding from men — and some do seem to be trying — that I might give it a shot.
Are we talking single player games?
Because I don't see how me choosing that costume for my playthrough would impact yours and vice versa
For multi-player, there are easy workarounds
It's hard for me to really put into words, other then what I like looking at in fiction is different to what I would find attractive in real life. In fiction I quite enjoy hyper exaggerated characters.
I can't really give you much more besides, "I like it" otherwise.
This phenomenon is still incredible to me. Either the majority of straight men are actually incredibly dumb, which I highly doubt, or they just simply don't give enough of a shit about what women like to notice it when it's staring them in the face, which is the most plausible explanation and also really depressing when you think about it.
Heh, that's how people would feel about sexualized women, too, if it wasn't the norm.
Yeah. If sexualized women wasn't the default approach, and it was an exception rather than the rule, we'd be in a much better place.
I honestly don't buy it. I don't buy it that someone could be so clueless about what's a conventionally attractive man. If you watch TV or movies, if you have seen a Men's Health magazine, if you have interacted with any women, if you know a guy IRL that's popular with women, if you have seen a poster for Magic Mike, if you have ever seen pictures of a male model - you can't possibly be serious when you say Kratos and Zangief are sexualized characters. It feels disingenuous, it feels like an attempt to mute criticism.
I'm not going to lie, I think "but I just like them!!" is a really bad response to people asking why you like sexually objectified designs. Please at least try to dig a little deeper, because there has to be a reason you like it. I could guess what the reason is, because I have my own ideas, but I'd rather not put words in anyone's mouth.
It's also frustrating to talk about my personal experience with the discomfort and pain objectification causes and then be met with "but I like it". Why should I take that seriously?
It reminds me of men getting defensive/offensive about boy bands. Making homophobic comments, they're "sissies", etc. And I'm like, "So... you realize these are the guys a lot of girls/women are attracted to, right?" Same thing happened with FFXV and it's "boy band" cast, and I'm sitting here eyeing the huge female fanbase online making looooots of fanart lol. It extends to certain actors too, and yeah... I don't think most men have ever been asked to consider what straight women actually find attractive. In America, men who try to, like, groom themselves or dress better are mocked, so there's actually active pressure going the other way.
I'm sure it's been used to derail or try and find a magic way to win the argument. They see a shirtless guy, they've never had to think about it before, maybe their back is up because they feel criticized, and ta-da! False equivalence. But I think (somehow) some people really don't see a distinction, which is just... immensely clueless. But I can probably work with it if they're willing to talk :P
It's also frustrating to talk about my personal experience with the discomfort and pain objectification causes and then be met with "but I like it". Why should I take that seriously?
It reminds me of men getting defensive/offensive about boy bands. Making homophobic comments, they're "sissies", etc. And I'm like, "So... you realize these are the guys a lot of girls/women are attracted to, right?" Same thing happened with FFXV and it's "boy band" cast, and I'm sitting here eyeing the huge female fanbase online making looooots of fanart lol. It extends to certain actors too, and yeah... I don't think most men have ever been asked to consider what straight women actually find attractive. In America, men who try to, like, groom themselves or dress better are mocked, so there's actually active pressure going the other way.
I'm sure it's been used to derail or try and find a magic way to win the argument. They see a shirtless guy, they've never had to think about it before, maybe their back is up because they feel criticized, and ta-da! False equivalence. But I think (somehow) some people really don't see a distinction, which is just... immensely clueless. But I can probably work with it if they're willing to talk :P
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Well, talking as a man, men are visual creatures, tbh we just like to be tillilated from time to time so i can get the I just like sexually objectified designs
I can't say i share that point of view, but it's a plausible explanation, if anything.
It's insulting because it just shuts down conversations. "I like it so there." Why should we have to take it at face value?
And yeah, the boy band comparison is apt. Men need to be "manly" and then turn around and somehow think this is what women want as well. It's so stupid.
Men are no more visual creatures than women are, as far as I can tell. The sheer amount of women in fandoms I follow who openly talk about how hot anime dudes (and gals!) are is testament to that. They just don't ONLY talk about looks, they talk about personality, development, etc. I often find a lot of male fans only really consider looks. NOT ALL, of course, and a lot who I follow on social media aren't like that, but a lot based on other forums I go to.
That, i don't know, and i can't talk from a woman's point of view because i'm not a woman
In my experience the bolded tends to be true. A lot of dudes I grew up around were caught up in their machismo shit and everything they did was a function of that. They didn't care about what a woman found attractive past what could get them in her pants, and being that boisterous IDGAF dude was easier for them than abandoning their machismo.
For me, I also have a lot of anxiety issues from a weird upbringing so even when my brain picks up a signal the rest of my body goes into fight or flight mode and I freeze up. It's a really fucking weird state of mind to be in.
I'm inclined to agree. There's just no way you can have ZERO idea of what straight/bi women like, even if you're the biggest otaku shut-in in the whole planet.
Oh god, thanks for this. I completely agree. It actually hurts when you've had to deal with objectification your whole life, having to deal with body issues, with feeling like you're only a sex toy, like your worth is defined exclusively by how fuckable you are, only to see someone just say "welp I like video game titties so".
I also think people, especially straight men, would benefit from reflecting on the things they like and why they like them. "idk I just like it" is a useless statement.
"Men are visual creatures" is one of my least favorite phrases in the English language.
I do think titillation is exactly the reason people like it, but I'm seeing a bit of reluctance to admit it. I don't really have a problem with people getting a bit of sexual excitement in media either, but I don't think sexual objectification is necessary to achieve that.
I'm trying to not be snappy at people, but it's really insulting...
I completely agree. I've felt like I enjoy some things that are kind of fucked up, and a little self-reflection never hurt. It's sort of the same idea as when you have a gross thought pop into your head and you take a step back and take a moment to realize it was gross. Even something that small can be helpful.
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And it does not mean anything. Like look at the start of the thread ... all the pretty colors ! Lots of visually stimulating designs!
Not to be too mean but that apparently counts for little because you're not well equipped to talk about men either.
People are people and everyone's got their own tastes, man, woman, or genderqueer. :P
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Ok, as an asexual male, I point blank have no idea what you're talking about.
you can tell men apart from women because men are visual creatures and women are born blind
I've noticed this as well, actually. I rarely see men talk about the personality of their "waifus" (beyond "she's cute and obsessed with/loyal to my self-insert!!"), but women spend a lot of time analyzing every little personality trait, backstory, and character development of their favorite anime boys, while also thirsting because of their looks.
Yes, that's something we all should be doing. When I think (and I mean really think) about my fetishes or the tropes I like in fiction, I can always trace them back to something I like irl, or an experience I had irl that made me like that fetish or trope. I'm a firm believer that we don't like things just because; there's always an underlying reason.
I've been in a few fandoms that, put bluntly, had a lot of people drawing and writing straight up child porn with the excuse that "I like it" and "it's just fiction". That has to stop. Of course it doesn't just apply to extreme things like child porn but if you like something that could be harmful, it's time to stop shielding yourself from criticism and to start reflecting on why you like certain things.
I've noticed this as well, actually. I rarely see men talk about the personality of their "waifus" (beyond "she's cute and obsessed with/loyal to my self-insert!!"), but women spend a lot of time analyzing every little personality trait, backstory, and character development of their favorite anime boys, while also thirsting because of their looks.
Yes, that's something we all should be doing. When I think (and I mean really think) about my fetishes or the tropes I like in fiction, I can always trace them back to something I like irl, or an experience I had irl that made me like that fetish or trope. I'm a firm believer that we don't like things just because; there's always an underlying reason.
I've been in a few fandoms that, put bluntly, had a lot of people drawing and writing straight up child porn with the excuse that "I like it" and "it's just fiction". That has to stop. Of course it doesn't just apply to extreme things like child porn but if you like something that could be harmful, it's time to stop shielding yourself from criticism and to start reflecting on why you like certain things.
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That was all a response to the rise of Romanticism (I believe that's the specific art movement here) and stuff like women adopting men-exclusive status symbols such as high heels. Men's fashion began to take on purely utilitarian aesthetics and anything outside that norm started being considered "girly" or whatever.
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Don't know if this was aimed at me but I'll try. I find A LOT of stuff attractive, so try to pen down why I like sexualized designs is hard, one thing I could say is they tend to be hyper stylized something that wouldn't really work if you were to put it in real life. Like the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown as I mentioned earlier. That's just something I find appealing.
I think that's why Quiet bugs me, she's basically just a half naked woman running around a semi-realistic military base and it's so jarring even my suspension of disbelief is thrown off.
Now as I've said earlier I'd be fine if fan service was toned down in some games. I wouldn't complain if Cammy got pants or the slimmed her down to her SFII figure. I'll also note I'm fine with more sexualized men and think the reaction to the Mobius incident was hypocrisy at its finest.
I wish I could offer more information but I'm pretty sure I'm not an atypical guy when it comes to this sort of thing. If someone where to ask me to put in more female characters because of how attractive I found them you'd probably see more designs like this.
I wonder how much that "nice guy"/"bad boys" shit plays into it? "But I'm a Nice Guy! I'm entitled to women because I'm Nice!!!" etcetera.
The number of times I'm seen (mainly online) male peer groups push each other towards "buff, bearded and bald" because that's what all the womens are after is hilarious. I'm often harassed in my hometown (and was once hospitalised) because I have long hair and wear makeup (I daren't wear skirts in public, period). Toxic masculinity is vile. And, you know what? This has nothing to do with what women find attractive - it's just insecure men, scared that women won't find them attractive, trying to push other men to conform to their image. It's like "If I can't have the women, NO ONE CAN!!!", or something...
Don't know if this was aimed at me but I'll try. I find A LOT of stuff attractive, so try to pen down why I like sexualized designs is hard, one thing I could say is they tend to be hyper stylized something that wouldn't really work if you were to put it in real life. Like the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown as I mentioned earlier. That's just something I find appealing.
I think that's why Quiet bugs me, she's basically just a half naked woman running around a semi-realistic military base and it's so jarring even my suspension of disbelief is thrown off.
Now as I've said earlier I'd be fine if fan service was toned down in some games. I wouldn't complain if Cammy got pants or the slimmed her down to her SFII figure. I'll also note I'm fine with more sexualized men and think the reaction to the Mobius incident was hypocrisy at its finest.
I wish I could offer more information but I'm pretty sure I'm not an atypical guy when it comes to this sort of thing. If someone where to ask me to put in more female characters because of how attractive I found them you'd probably see more designs like this.
See, this sounds to me like a slight aesthetic preference. Similar to me saying that I really like Link's green tunic and I was sad that it was blue in BOTW. Not that big a deal, it didn't ruin the game or anything, but I would've liked the green more.
My real problem was that the green tunic came with SHORTS. I hate those shorts so much...
I by no means think you are a bad person for liking any design in the world. I do think it's callous to prize your own aesthetic preferences over the pain and suffering of an entire gender. I know that probably sounds like an attack, but that really is my personal focus in this thread. Talking about the pain, suffering, and discomfort women feel with objectification, of which video games are just a small but often painful part. Like a nasty splinter that gets stuck under your fingernail. I want to help people understand how that feels and what I'm upset about when it comes to character designs.
I had a discussion with some women colleagues and they were critical of men who did a complete depilation on their body during summer holidays. Which is a relatively recent phenomenon
Specificly single player games yes. If the game's main character is female and has a non-sexualized design but you give players the option to have that character wear a bikini armor then you undermine her character and all the issues that have been discussed would still apply.
Can you imagine if Aloy had this option:
I like Lightning and HATED 80 percent of the outfits you get in LR. And not only do I gain more appreciation to her original design everytime I look at her Equilibrium outfit in LR but I wish I could get every awful outfit in that game and burn it in front of it's designer. And LR being a Japanese game excuses nothing.
Very much my stance as well. My mom is a gamer; playing video games was a lot of our bonding time (and still is, actually). I love Xenoblade Chronicles 2 outside of those really problematic character designs and it's the kind of game I'd like to show my mom... but I know how those character designs will make her feel, especially knowing what she's dealt with in her life.
I mentioned that to my flatmate in a discussion we had on the game (my first post in this thread) and he tried to give me some bullshit about how it's just me feeling ashamed of other people seeing the content of the games I play. Like, he completely ignored half of my point to rationalize how it was all some hangup of mine.
But Kaytee, Shorts are comfy and easy to we- *gets shot*
...I REALLY need to finish by thesis on Xenoblade Chronicles 2 so I can finally post that thread here...
It's an absurd answer to an absurd question. Literally the first thing that popped into my head.
If I had to answer the question again, I'd say, in my current mind state, "peach cobbler".
The "men are visual creatures" shit is dumb.
I know this thread flies and it's so yesterday, but this image reminded me of supposedly apolitical Nintendo.
(https://abload.de/img/imageh4jq9.jpeg)
It's the stances.
https://abload.de/img/image75j61.jpeg
https://abload.de/img/image75j61.jpeg
There's a point to this, and I even do agree personally, but it can be countered with player autonomy plus different tastes, also anti-slut-shaming whataboutism.Specificly single player games yes. If the game's main character is female and has a non-sexualized design but you give players the option to have that character wear a bikini armor then you undermine her character and all the issues that have been discussed would still apply.
Can you imagine if Aloy had this option:
I like Lightning and HATED 80 percent of the outfits you get in LR. And not only do I gain more appreciation to her original design everytime I look at her Equilibrium outfit in LR but I wish I could get every awful outfit in that game and burn it in front of it's designer. And LR being a Japanese game excuses nothing.
Specificly single player games yes. If the game's main character is female and has a non-sexualized design but you give players the option to have that character wear a bikini armor then you undermine her character and all the issues that have been discussed would still apply.
Can you imagine if Aloy had this option:
I like Lightning and HATED 80 percent of the outfits you get in LR. And not only do I gain more appreciation to her original design everytime I look at her Equilibrium outfit in LR but I wish I could get every awful outfit in that game and burn it in front of it's designer. And LR being a Japanese game excuses nothing.
OK but even if you can argue it undermines her character, aren't you only cheating yourself?
Just like I believe using cheats or hacks undermine most games, as long as its offline and not impacting me, I find it hard to argue against others choosing the option
And again this assumes the developers wanted to give players the option
No I personally couldn't imagine Aloy in that nor do I want to. But I'm sure someone out there might and that's their prerogative, assuming the creators want to enable such a choice
Yikes. Of course, if you dare criticize this, you'll be immediately labeled a "crazy radical leftist" and "this is why no other websites respect
Haha, for real.
As a teen (and today as well of course) I've always despised boy bands myself. But even then, I couldn't understand how dudes would make these homophobic comments, because I knew so many girls my age loved these bands. I'd hear stuff like "they're sissy faggots" and just thought, uh, these guys probably get way more chicks than you, dude. Must be jealousy? IDK.
Yikes. Didn't even need to click the spoiler tag to see the immediate difference. Dude is posing strong and confident, girl is modest and demure.I know this thread flies and it's so yesterday, but this image reminded me of supposedly apolitical Nintendo.
Why is the so-called apolitical Nintendo injecting blatant gender politics in their software? I just want to play games and have fun!! ;)
I'd say that the 2D art of a bunch of SCV's characters is definitely intended to be sexy and attractive:
I don't think the actual game models capture the same atmosphere of handsomeness, though.
I don't think the actual game models capture the same atmosphere of handsomeness, though.
Oh ok, thank you.
It was just confusing cause you replied to john k who was getting at the same thing you were getting at then. Or I'm having a mentally deficient day.
******
Nintendo also gives avatars in Animal Crossing New Leaf a different running style. Any avatar wearing female clothes runs with its arms all stuck out sideways, increasing air resistance, because girls don't run fast.
Another way to read it is the guy showing the world his dick while the gal being worried for her vag.
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