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Dragmire

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,120
@Valkrai1983 Much like a simply shirtless Ryu, cheating in a game says nothing and not comparable to the way most female characters have been presented video games. Do we really have give every non-sexualized female character a sexualized option to cater to people and developers that like them? No. Players and developers can be wrong.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
I have a few things to say about the "I like what I like" response and I also want to expand on this post with the racism equivalence:

Two things. The first is that there's a reason we label this kind of material "problematic". It's because it's not evil, or that enjoying this kind of thing makes you a bad person, or anything like that. It's that this kind of stuff can make some people uncomfortable and that it can lead to the normalization on bad practices. I think that the most that we can ask of everyone is that they have some empathy for these other aspects of the media they consume. So as long as you can do that, then it's good.

The other thing is that I think that we overly condemn racism and put so far into the pale that it can't be discussed properly. Racism is a negative thing for sure, but it's also something that's pretty normal for people to feel. It's something that exists at all sorts of levels, from very mild racism, all the way to people willing to burn crosses. We really shouldn't treat it all the same, and I wish that we would be able to approach it in a more measured manner than just condemning it.

So I agree that we need to get better when it comes to discourse on racism. It's obviously a bad thing, but people have kind of broken the spectrum and assume it's all burning crosses and wearing white hoods, which makes the defense far more vicious and makes people incapable of self-reflection.

You aren't an irredeemable piece of garbage for having a racist thought once in a while, you're a flawed human being acting as a product of your own experiences and innate mental state just like everyone else. Being completely immune to biases is impossible in any culture with physical differences, even if you're externally capable of recognizing them as biases in the first place while subconsciously incapable of doing anything about it. Or as Avenue Q puts it best, Everyone's a bit racist.

I'll put myself out there and give an example based on my own experiences. I work retail at a mom n pop carpet store. We get a lot of thick-accented Indian customers that 99 times out of 100, will try to haggle. So at some point, I started associating in my mind thick-accented Indian gentlemen as aggressive hagglers and maybe internally sigh when one entered the store. I would catch myself and think "wait a minute, I'm being racist right now" and yet I would still do it every time. I would of course help the customer as best as I could and never show any signs of displeasure, but those biases would remain regardless of how often I would condemn myself for them. Now were I to have any interactions with thick-accented Indian people outside of work, perhaps I never would have made that association in my mind in the first place. Lack of exposure and exposure in specific environments are a big part of what leads to those biases in the first place and outside of extremely rare cases, you're going to end up in situations like that where a pet peeve of yours will be triggered by shared behavior of certain groups, or at least the perception of such.

Now recognition of this is all well and good, but the problem is actually getting rid of those undesirable biases when they're already established, and often times that goes a hell of a lot further than slight annoyances over retail behavior. After WWII, Denazification programs were abandoned for being ineffective. People's mindsets didn't change, but society did because it was forced to by external powers.

But the problem here is race is largely a social construct and many of the issues of race relations come from the natural human reaction of "you're different!" alongside perception of other cultures and them forking off in seemingly incompatible directions. A "better luck next time" mindset with raising the next generation is possible on a micro level even if it isn't totally probable. There are paths forward, even if those paths are filled with thorn bushes and zig zag all over the place.

But when it comes to human sexuality, things get a bit more complicated. It's something more innate and resistant to change with "deprogramming" being all but impossible. It's why Paraphilias are considered mental disorders while "racism" isn't. That isn't to say there are no sociological aspects involved, but those are generally how it manifests itself in society more than anything else. In ancient Greece, women were actually the horny ones that would never say no to sex while men would hold back as being too sexually active would be an insult to a man's virility, a complete reversal of what the culture dictates now. But all that suggests is humans are sexual creatures by nature regardless of gender.

And because of that, the desire to objectify is similarly a very human thing to do as it's augmenting what's already there. When it comes to lust, there's no prerequisite to see the object of your lust as anything but just that, at least in that moment. Obviously that isn't true of love, but I don't think anyone will argue that the former is extremely prevalent in society as well. That seems to tie into humans being naturally selfish, with more pronounced empathy largely being a learned trait, but even then your mind may abandon it in those moments were objectification is appropriate.

So if people can recognize all that but have no desire to change, I wouldn't want to come down too hard on them for it because I do truly believe in many situations it's beyond their control. The problem I have with that though is whether showing empathy while feeling that way actually means anything. I mean if you're fine with it and don't want what you like to go away despite the protests of the side you claim to support, doesn't any display of sympathy sort of ring hollow?

I do think it's admirable when those in a position of privilege are capable of giving some of that up for the benefit and comfort of others, but I'm reluctant to call those that don't and even ones that are stubbornly incapable of recognizing that privilege monsters. And that's why, as I've said many times, I feel that objectification should be an equal two-way street, because putting a muzzle on something innate like that is far more limiting than doing it with social constructs.
 

Deleted member 21094

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
625
I have a few things to say about the "I like what I like" response and I also want to expand on this post with the racism equivalence:t.
I agree fully with the racism part, being unfamiliar really makes you base your assumptions on preconceived ideas about that particular race, whether that is from stereotypes or from personal experience. Especially coming from some parts of Asia where you really don't grow up seeing other races often. Even if I know what I am doing is racist I still tend to do it. I can try to act open minded but deep down I know what I think
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
In ancient Greece, women were actually the horny ones that would never say no to sex while men would hold back as being too sexually active would be an insult to a man's virility, a complete reversal of what the culture dictates now. But all that suggests is humans are sexual creatures by nature regardless of gender.

Citation please.

And even if it's true, that's not even close to a complete reversal of what society dictates today. Like with racism, people seem to ignore the way that power interacts with these biases. It's why calling a white person "cracker" is basically harmless and not even remotely the same as calling a black person the n word. Women lusting over men in ancient greece, if that is even true, didn't mean that men were merely seen as sex objects by ancient greek society -- it didn't result in men not being taken seriously in government or the workplace (in fact, it was the opposite -- women weren't allowed to hold political office and didn't have legal personhood). The problem isn't necessarily lust, it's when that lust perpetuates actual societal imbalances.

edit: and it's no coincidence that many people that defend excessive fanservice often also argue that there isn't any gender imbalance (or that, actually, women have it better) or that the misogynistic imbalance is the good and natural state for human society.
 
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kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
But when it comes to human sexuality, things get a bit more complicated. It's something more innate and resistant to change with "deprogramming" being all but impossible. It's why Paraphilias are considered mental disorders while "racism" isn't. That isn't to say there are no sociological aspects involved, but those are generally how it manifests itself in society more than anything else. In ancient Greece, women were actually the horny ones that would never say no to sex while men would hold back as being too sexually active would be an insult to a man's virility, a complete reversal of what the culture dictates now. But all that suggests is humans are sexual creatures by nature regardless of gender.

And because of that, the desire to objectify is similarly a very human thing to do as it's augmenting what's already there. When it comes to lust, there's no prerequisite to see the object of your lust as anything but just that, at least in that moment. Obviously that isn't true of love, but I don't think anyone will argue that the former is extremely prevalent in society as well. That seems to tie into humans being naturally selfish, with more pronounced empathy largely being a learned trait, but even then your mind may abandon it in those moments were objectification is appropriate.


I don't buy that sexual attraction or lust = objectification. Objectification is the dehumanization of another human being. Sexual objectification is dehumanizing someone for the purposes of sex. It's perfectly normal and possible to be attracted to someone, to hit on someone, to have sex with someone, etc, all while seeing them as a complete human.

I do think it's admirable when those in a position of privilege are capable of giving some of that up for the benefit and comfort of others, but I'm reluctant to call those that don't and even ones that are stubbornly incapable of recognizing that privilege monsters. And that's why, as I've said many times, I feel that objectification should be an equal two-way street, because putting a muzzle on something innate like that is far more limiting than doing it with social constructs.

I wouldn't wish persistent objectification on anyone, so I don't want men to have to deal with it too. And although I probably wouldn't call anyone a monster for refusing to grapple with their privilege and how it affects other people, they're no friend of mine. I'm not going to pretend to have nice feelings toward them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Citation please.

And even if it's true, that's not even close to a complete reversal of what society dictates today. Like with racism, people seem to ignore the way that power interacts with these biases. It's why calling a white person "cracker" is basically harmless and not even remotely the same as calling a black person the n word. Women lusting over men in ancient greece, if that is even true, didn't mean that men were merely seen as sex objects by ancient greek society -- it didn't result in men not being taken seriously in government or the workplace (in fact, it was the opposite -- women weren't allowed to hold political office and didn't have legal personhood). The problem isn't necessarily lust, it's when that lust perpetuates actual societal imbalances.

It's actually something I remember from my sociology class, but I can't find the book that said it. I did find a tvtropes page though (I know, not a good source).

Either way though, I was using that as an example specifically tied to sexuality. I wasn't defending the treatment of women in Ancient Greece or any other patriarchal societies outside of that. It was purely to illustrate the sociological aspects of sexualization. So I agree with you, using the term "reversal" was wrong.

I don't buy that sexual attraction or lust = objectification. Objectification is the dehumanization of another human being. Sexual objectification is dehumanizing someone for the purposes of sex. It's perfectly normal and possible to be attracted to someone, to hit on someone, to have sex with someone, etc, all while seeing them as a complete human.

How do you view porn? Do you think the many people watching these actors/actresses/amateurs/whatever see them as people to be friends with that have their own opinions and aspirations? No, they're there so people can get off. Their very purpose in the minds of the viewer is sex and nothing else, at least in that moment. This mindset can leave the screen and enter "reality" with the mindset surrounding "conquests". The latter is skewed heavily toward one gender because of cultural perceptions, and yet it wouldn't be like that if toxic masculinity weren't a factor but would rather encompass everyone. You can call it an undesirable, yet ubiquitous flaw of human psychology. It's not going to matter to the masses if some people don't fall into that category because unfortunately consensus dictates a way forward. And that sucks and I'll always visibly extend my sympathy for it because there are aspects of my life that are the same way, but I don't know if that sympathy actually means anything when I'm part of their problem and will continue as such even if I can acknowledge that.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Yikes. Didn't even need to click the spoiler tag to see the immediate difference. Dude is posing strong and confident, girl is modest and demure.

Why is the so-called apolitical Nintendo injecting blatant gender politics in their software? I just want to play games and have fun!! ;)
Yeah, Japan is even more heavily invested into gendered visual cues than the rest of the world. There's been a pretty popular trend of giving female characters a pigeon-toed stance because it's something that children do. I've also noticed the odd adoption of the Louis XIV pose where the feet are pointed directly at the viewer so the sides can't be seen. It makes it look like these characters have legs that end in points, and I can't figure out why character designers have started doing this.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
How do you view porn? Do you think the many people watching these actors/actresses/amateurs/whatever see them as people to be friends with that have their own opinions and aspirations? No, they're there so people can get off. Their very purpose in the minds of the viewer is sex and nothing else, at least in that moment. This mindset can leave the screen and enter "reality" with the mindset surrounding "conquests". The latter is skewed heavily toward one gender because of cultural perceptions, and yet it wouldn't be like that if toxic masculinity weren't a factor but would rather encompass everyone. You can call it an undesirable, yet ubiquitous flaw of human psychology. It's not going to matter to the masses if some people don't fall into that category because unfortunately consensus dictates a way forward.

When real people are treated like tools to get off like porn, then yeah I have a problem with that. When men watch porn, internalize a bunch of gross shit, and then start treating women they meet as sexual objects, that's misogyny.

I'm aware that people do treat others as sexual objects, but it's not okay. And like you say, this happens almost entirely to women. It's not anything biological. It's one way our entire history of oppressing women manifests. In this circumstance "consensus" or the "majority opinion" just means patriarchy.

And that sucks and I'll always visibly extend my sympathy for it because there are aspects of my life that are the same way, but I don't know if that sympathy actually means anything when I'm part of their problem and will continue as such even if I can acknowledge that.

In that case, no, I don't care to have your sympathy.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
I've also noticed the odd adoption of the Louis XIV pose where the feet are pointed directly at the viewer so the sides can't be seen. It makes it look like these characters have legs that end in points, and I can't figure out why character designers have started doing this.
My knee-jerk assumption would be something related to why foot binding was popular, but I know that was more of a China thing so might not be relevant.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I don't know why "but porn!" is ever used as an argument when 99,999999999999999% of porn is grossly misogynistic along with a bunch of other issues.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
My knee-jerk assumption would be something related to why foot binding was popular, but I know that was more of a China thing so might not be relevant.
There was a very large period of time where Japan was very heavily influenced by Chinese culture (their letter system came from them if I remember correctly) so it's not impossible that's where it comes from.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I don't know why "but porn!" is ever used as an argument when 99,999999999999999% of porn is grossly misogynistic along with a bunch of other issues.
Because an overly moralizing society dictates that we cannot reconcile that there are parts of us that are bad. So rather than coming to terms with them, we hide them, naturalize them, or position them with a facade to cover up what is simply a fear of being bad, even if that's just part of who we, as people, are.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
When real people are treated like tools to get off like porn, then yeah I have a problem with that. When men watch porn, internalize a bunch of gross shit, and then start treating women they meet as sexual objects, that's misogyny.

I'm aware that people do treat others as sexual objects, but it's not okay. And like you say, this happens almost entirely to women. It's not anything biological. It's one way our entire history of oppressing women manifests. In this circumstance "consensus" or the "majority opinion" just means patriarchy.

But what about those that can completely divorce their views of women in porn/objectified fictional roles and their views of the women they'll meet in reality? Should they have no part in the conversation because others are incapable of doing what they're doing?

Because an overly moralizing society dictates that we cannot reconcile that there are parts of us that are bad. So rather than coming to terms with them, we hide them, naturalize them, or position them with a facade to cover up what is simply a fear of being bad, even if that's just part of who we, as people, are.

Yeah, this is my view too. It's good to acknowledge when something you feel is good for you is bad for everyone else and a way forward/compromise can't happen without that.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
But what about those that can completely divorce their views of women in porn/objectified fictional roles and their views of the women they'll meet in reality? Should they have no part in the conversation because others are incapable of doing what they're doing?
You do realise literally everyone thinks that they are the one that's unaffected by the media they consume? That their views are their own and can't be influenced so easily? The point of media affecting how you view woman and how you treat them is you don't realise it - and your brain is perfectly capable of making excuses for why they treated a person a certain way - "oh it's not that they are a woman, it's that I just don't think that person is a capable candidate, not all women of course". It's insidious and it's hard to fight against because you don't know it's affecting you. And it affects everyone, no matter how smart or aware you are, it's how the human brain works, it makes quick judgements based on info it's gathered from everywhere. Noones immune.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
It's actually something I remember from my sociology class, but I can't find the book that said it. I did find a tvtropes page though (I know, not a good source).

Either way though, I was using that as an example specifically tied to sexuality. I wasn't defending the treatment of women in Ancient Greece or any other patriarchal societies outside of that. It was purely to illustrate the sociological aspects of sexualization. So I agree with you, using the term "reversal" was wrong.

Depends which city you refer to. Eg Athens vs Sparta. While Rome was against nudity in general.
Notice also that there was a comedy play by Aristophanes where women of both Athens and Sparta in order to stop the civil war deny their husband soldiers any sexual pleasures till they make peace.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,321
I don't know why "but porn!" is ever used as an argument when 99,999999999999999% of porn is grossly misogynistic along with a bunch of other issues.

Hmm, i've seen and read enough pornography and erotica in general to believe that the number is a lot lower than that.

And though it's often brought up to in some way reveal an expected underside of hypocrisy that isn't there, pornography is actually a strong point of comparison to think about the objectification of women because it, specifically, is evidently about two particular kinds of objectification and their intersection: objectification as an object of labor, and as an object of sexual titillation.

But what about those that can completely divorce their views of women in porn/objectified fictional roles and their views of the women they'll meet in reality? Should they have no part in the conversation because others are incapable of doing what they're doing?

I'm not sure how useful this point of discussion is when the problem, it seems to me, is more about self-objectification. At least my point of perspective comes from the awareness that this sexual objectification we're discussing harms women who consume it, that is, that they self objectify in ways that are unhealthy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
You do realise literally everyone thinks that they are the one that's unaffected by the media they consume? That their views are their own and can't be influenced so easily? The point of media affecting how you view woman and how you treat them is you don't realise it - and your brain is perfectly capable of making excuses for why they treated a person a certain way - "oh it's not that they are a woman, it's that I just don't think that person is a capable candidate, not all women of course". It's insidious and it's hard to fight against because you don't know it's affecting you. And it affects everyone, no matter how smart or aware you are, it's how the human brain works, it makes quick judgements based on info it's gathered from everywhere. Noones immune.

I'm aware (so I guess I shouldn't have said "completely"), but I think it's possible for the effect to be so minute that it's ultimately a non-issue, which obviously isn't the reality for everyone. It's also more complicated than that with the way association works in general and just what aspects are being dehumanized based on the media being consumed.

The melding of fantasy and reality can be curbed when doing things in moderation, but even when you don't, what one finds attractive is rarely a 1:1 thing in both their mind and reality. It's the same reasoning behind rape fantasies being extremely prevalent when the subject is an awful thing that no holders of said fantasy would want to actually happen. A personal example: I find red hair attractive in art, but I don't find it attractive on real people. It's not totally equivalent because of what gets normalized by society which is only augmented by the media, but it's not impossible to mostly disassociate less egregious examples.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I'm not sure how useful this point of discussion is when the problem, it seems to me, is more about self-objectification. At least my point of perspective comes from the awareness that this sexual objectification we're discussing harms women who consume it, that is, that they self objectify in ways that are unhealthy.

No, I completely disagree. Objectification in media is a symptom of female oppression at the hands of men. Excessive objectification of women in video games isn't harmful just because it makes women feel bad about our bodies, but because it makes us feel excluded from the community, because it shows that men largely don't view women as equals, but as sex toys, and because it may teach men that women exist for men's pleasure.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Yeah, this is my view too. It's good to acknowledge when something you feel is good for you is bad for everyone else and a way forward/compromise can't happen without that.
Realizing this is just the beginning though. Most people realize that the treatment of women and minorities in most media is bad. But realizing it also means that you now have to do something about it, or risk basically not just acknowledging the problem, but accepting the problem. And accepting the problem is toxic and does lead to a lot of really poisonous, hateful viewpoints. Everyone can acknowledge the problem, but a lot of people are extremely comfortable with accepting it, when there's basically no reason to do so (or at least, all the reasons presented here would indicate there aren't any that aren't fraught with navel-gazing and fear of change).
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
Ban extended to permanent after review, based on history of ignoring prior warnings/bans, and for repeated sexist trolling.
This is the best thread ever
It's never ending

I completely disagree with comparing racism with Cindy and Pyra and Quiet and some other female characters

There is a reason why 1 is against the law and the other are games with teen ratings or even lower

And no
This is not because society accepts this and that but not that and that
There are fundamental differences
This is a no-brainer
Its actually degrading the effect of racism

If you want to make it as broad as how women are threated in some countries its more a good camparison of course
But dont use it in discussions about Cindy etc
Women in Iran are at this very moment literally risking their lives on the streets of Iran
Yes how they are threated is like genatical racism
But please dont get carried away in discussions about some character designs and comparing it to racism
 
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incogneato

Self Requested Ban
Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,119
I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity:

In what terms would high heels be appropriate for a female character design? I like wearing high heels because they make me feel powerful, but I am also familiar with some women reading high heels as a means to pander to the male gaze. On a similar note, I read these same arguments concerning makeup and its use to make women more sexually attractive towards men. I disagree with this observation because I read makeup as a means of self-empowerment because it is an art form.

Follow-up questions would be:
Would a fellow woman designing a woman with high heels be internalizing misogyny or is she merely including a design element because of how empowered high heels make her feel?

Anyone responding to this post should understand that I recognize the complex issues of femininity, the social constructions of femininity as an end-all for female expression and beauty, and the mixed notions of what women contextualize as parts of their self-identity. With that said, let's venture past foundational discussions on representation and go further into the external stimuli that cause imperfections on how women view themselves and their place within the world.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
But what about those that can completely divorce their views of women in porn/objectified fictional roles and their views of the women they'll meet in reality? Should they have no part in the conversation because others are incapable of doing what they're doing?
This triggered a reaction in my brain that I'm gonna try to verbalize and I hope it doesn't come off rude or misrepresentative to you or anyone else.

I have started going into these kinds of conversations with the mindset of "if people are not specifically calling x group out, I am not going to lump them into the critique." Because yes, there are people like that, and they do have a part in the conversation, but there's a larger issue that is important to address that gets diluted when we turn the focus on groups who aren't exhibiting the majority of the issues raised. Backing off from that reaction myself has led me to learn more and see some of the more nefarious attitudes from strangers and friends alike in my day-to-day life. It's been stated a few times in here that the main issue is the prevalence of objectification of women in our culture, and eliminating that is an important first step toward healthier and more equal attitudes toward/discussions about sexuality. So, for me, it's more important to focus on the groups actively creating or reinforcing roadblocks that prevent this. Does that make sense?
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
This is the best thread ever
It's never ending

I completely disagree with comparing racism with Cindy and Pyra and Quiet and some other female characters

There is a reason why 1 is against the law and the other are games with teen ratings or even lower

And no
This is not because society accepts this and that but not that and that
There are fundamental differences
This is a no-brainer
Its actually degrading the effect of racism
Huh?

...sex and race are both protected classes. Racist depictions aren't any more illegal than sexist depictions.

edit: And again, I don't think anybody is saying sexism is the same as racism, but they certainly have some useful similarities. I feel the need to reiterate that because people like you constantly misrepresent the conversation in what feels like bad faith. When you walk into the thread to say "racism is worse/different," you're not actually disagreeing with anyone except the straw man you're putting up and you aren't adding anything to the conversation.
 
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4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
My knee-jerk assumption would be something related to why foot binding was popular, but I know that was more of a China thing so might not be relevant.
These are definitely not related.

There was a very large period of time where Japan was very heavily influenced by Chinese culture (their letter system came from them if I remember correctly) so it's not impossible that's where it comes from.
Japan was heavily influenced by China, but this is back in the Heian era and earlier. That's about a thousand years ago. The practice of foot binding is old, but it didn't get really popular until the late-Ming to early-Qing eras, this being 4-500 years ago.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
I'm aware (so I guess I shouldn't have said "completely"), but I think it's possible for the effect to be so minute that it's ultimately a non-issue, which obviously isn't the reality for everyone. It's also more complicated than that with the way association works in general and just what aspects are being dehumanized based on the media being consumed.

The melding of fantasy and reality can be curbed when doing things in moderation, but even when you don't, what one finds attractive is rarely a 1:1 thing in both their mind and reality. It's the same reasoning behind rape fantasies being extremely prevalent when the subject is an awful thing that no holders of said fantasy would want to actually happen. A personal example: I find red hair attractive in art, but I don't find it attractive on real people. It's not totally equivalent because of what gets normalized by society which is only augmented by the media, but it's not impossible to mostly disassociate less egregious examples.
The problem is you can't tell the level it affects you - that's my point. How can you minimise the effect on you when you can't even be fully sure what it is? And I've come across a lot of people who don't think they are affected and then they say the most heinous shit (I'm not just talking sexism here). And they really do think they are completely unaffected. It's so much more difficult then you think. We can't act like people will be barely affected cus it's not true - I know I'm affected, I have sexist views, they slip through, I'm constantly trying to stop myself. It's hard when your brain suddenly comes up; with a thought like "well, I'm not as fat as her". I can know it's awful and still subconciously have those thoughts. The first step is admitting they could be there, then when they come up you can admit it and try move past it. That's why I think it's important to not to minimise the issue. People are inherently falliable and are influenced whether they want to be or not. The question is the next step, not whether it's there or not. It can't be a non-issue.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Depends which city you refer to. Eg Athens vs Sparta. While Rome was against nudity in general.
Notice also that there was a comedy play by Aristophanes where women of both Athens and Sparta in order to stop the civil war deny their husband soldiers any sexual pleasures till they make peace.

Interesting. Thanks for the history lesson.

I'm not sure how useful this point of discussion is when the problem, it seems to me, is more about self-objectification. At least my point of perspective comes from the awareness that this sexual objectification we're discussing harms women who consume it, that is, that they self objectify in ways that are unhealthy.

I feel like that's an entirely different discussion which usually leads to a deadlock about agency.

Realizing this is just the beginning though. Most people realize that the treatment of women and minorities in most media is bad. But realizing it also means that you now have to do something about it, or risk basically not just acknowledging the problem, but accepting the problem. And accepting the problem is toxic and does lead to a lot of really poisonous, hateful viewpoints. Everyone can acknowledge the problem, but a lot of people are extremely comfortable with accepting it, when there's basically no reason to do so (or at least, all the reasons presented here would indicate there aren't any that aren't fraught with navel-gazing and fear of change).

Don't really agree there. There's plenty of reason to do so. Those reasons just happen to be entirely selfish. It can be as simple as saying "I like objectification", and that's all the justification one person may need. Of course we've already had the discussion on individual vs climate, so don't know if there's much else to say there.
 

Deleted member 12009

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity:

In what terms would high heels be appropriate for a female character design?

I mean, I feel high heels aren't ever off the table as far as character design in general, and I don't think many here would consider high-heels on a character to be inherently problematic. Instead I'd say it's an issue of overuse, often to support a sexualized design or to inject sexuality into an otherwise 'unsexy' costume (like robotic women, soldiers, and monsters).
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity:

In what terms would high heels be appropriate for a female character design? I like wearing high heels because they make me feel powerful, but I am also familiar with some women reading high heels as a means to pander to the male gaze. On a similar note, I read these same arguments concerning makeup and its use to make women more sexually attractive towards men. I disagree with this observation because I read makeup as a means of self-empowerment because it is an art form.

Follow-up questions would be:
Would a fellow woman designing a woman with high heels be internalizing misogyny or is she merely including a design element because of how empowered high heels make her feel?

Anyone responding to this post should understand that I recognize the complex issues of femininity, the social constructions of femininity as an end-all for female expression and beauty, and the mixed notions of what women contextualize as parts of their self-identity. With that said, let's venture past foundational discussions on representation and go further into the external stimuli that cause imperfections on how women view themselves and their place within the world.

The issue is that most video games involve combat or other forms of action, which makes giving female characters featured in those games completely stupid, and it's only done to pander to the male gaze. If a female character who isn't involved in fighting or physical activity wears them then I don't care much (but of course, if a vast majority of female characters wear them I'm gonna get suspicious).
This might be a little OT, but while high heels might make some women feel empowered, my personal opinion as a woman is that the "empowerment" provided by high heels is just an illusion, because the objective truth is that high heels aren't empowering, but crippling, and exist only to make you look fuckable, not to help you be capable, or smarter, or more athletic, or basically any other positive quality that doesn't involve making dicks hard.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,321
No, I completely disagree. Objectification in media is a symptom of female oppression at the hands of men. Excessive objectification of women in video games isn't harmful just because it makes women feel bad about our bodies, but because it makes us feel excluded from the community, because it shows that men largely don't view women as equals, but as sex toys, and because it may teach men that women exist for men's pleasure.

Hmm, you're right. I was thinking more about sexual objectification in general as it happens in everything in life, which is not topical, but even then i suppose that's still true. Mind i wasn't saying "just", but in general the discourse i have with people irl is more about how their mental health is affected by it. Which now that i think about it can't be thought as the principal issue in any application of this topic, because it's concerned with health in a way that's hard to generalize solutions for, or approach the kind of displacement you mention.

Actually this reminds me of this article. Which is again not topical and i apologize for that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
The problem is you can't tell the level it affects you - that's my point. How can you minimise the effect on you when you can't even be fully sure what it is? And I've come across a lot of people who don't think they are affected and then they say the most heinous shit (I'm not just talking sexism here). And they really do think they are completely unaffected. It's so much more difficult then you think. We can't act like people will be barely affected cus it's not true - I know I'm affected, I have sexist views, they slip through, I'm constantly trying to stop myself. It's hard when your brain suddenly comes up; with a thought like "well, I'm not as fat as her". I can now it's awful and still subconciously have those thoughts. The first step is admitting they could be there, then when they come up you can admit it and try move past it. That's why I think it's important to not to minimise the issue. People are inherently falliable and are influenced whether they want to be or not. The question is the next step, not whether it's there or not. It can't be a non-issue.

What I'm suggesting is we need to find a way to pinpoint just how effected we are by specific things and if there's any way to curb it without necessarily giving things up.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Interesting. Thanks for the history lesson.



I feel like that's an entirely different discussion which usually leads to a deadlock about agency.



Don't really agree there. There's plenty of reason to do so. Those reasons just happen to be entirely selfish. It can be as simple as saying "I like objectification", and that's all the justification one person may need. Of course we've already had the discussion on individual vs climate, so don't know if there's much else to say there.

So when someone says "I like objectification" as an excuse, what I hear is "I enjoy dehumanizing women and treating them as objects for my own pleasure, and I don't care how much it hurts them on a societal or personal level."

That's really the core of everything I've posted in this thread.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Japan was heavily influenced by China, but this is back in the Heian era and earlier. That's about a thousand years ago. The practice of foot binding is old, but it didn't get really popular until the late-Ming to early-Qing eras, this being 4-500 years ago.
I'm always awful at trying to remember the dates! Thanks for the headsup :)
 

incogneato

Self Requested Ban
Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,119
I mean, I feel high heels aren't ever off the table as far as character design in general, and I don't think many here would consider high-heels on a character to be inherently problematic. Instead I'd say it's an issue of overuse, often to support a sexualized design or to inject sexuality into an otherwise 'unsexy' costume (like robotic women, soldiers, and monsters).
I agree that the pervasiveness of is definitely makes me side-eye design decisions when inappropriate.

The issue is that most video games involve combat or other forms of action, which makes giving female characters featured in those games completely stupid, and it's only done to pander to the male gaze. If a female character who isn't involved in fighting or physical activity wears them then I don't care much (but of course, if a vast majority of female characters wear them I'm gonna get suspicious).
This might be a little OT, but while high heels might make some women feel empowered, my personal opinion as a woman is that the "empowerment" provided by high heels is just an illusion, because the objective truth is that high heels aren't empowering, but crippling, and exist only to make you look fuckable, not to help you be capable, or smarter, or more athletic, or basically any other positive quality that doesn't involve making dicks hard.
I don't think it's an illusion. I prefer platforms for obvious reasons, because pumps are quite literally uncomfortable to wear and I don't wear them very often, but I know for a fact that once you're in literal equal standing to your fellow male co-workers then people tend to pay attention to you more. I'm 5'9, which is a respectable height for a person assigned female at birth, but I still feel like I have to loudly jump and proclaim whenever I don't wear anything that makes it seem like I'm the same height as others.

I imagine women that are shorter than me face this pretty regularly and if given the opportunity to wear shoes that make them appear taller, then they'd take the opportunity as long as they could quickly take them off and change into something more comfortable. Working within the genetic hands we're dealt allows me to view pumps as empowering when worn within reason.

I'm obviously against mandating that women wear pumps everyday to work, that's asinine and physically taxing on the body. But I know that whenever I need to assert my dominance in a professional setting then I know that I can weaponize those pumps into something that can work for me rather than the other way around.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
This triggered a reaction in my brain that I'm gonna try to verbalize and I hope it doesn't come off rude or misrepresentative to you or anyone else.

I have started going into these kinds of conversations with the mindset of "if people are not specifically calling x group out, I am not going to lump them into the critique." Because yes, there are people like that, and they do have a part in the conversation, but there's a larger issue that is important to address that gets diluted when we turn the focus on groups who aren't exhibiting the majority of the issues raised. Backing off from that reaction myself has led me to learn more and see some of the more nefarious attitudes from strangers and friends alike in my day-to-day life. It's been stated a few times in here that the main issue is the prevalence of objectification of women in our culture, and eliminating that is an important first step toward healthier and more equal attitudes toward/discussions about sexuality. So, for me, it's more important to focus on the groups actively creating or reinforcing roadblocks that prevent this. Does that make sense?

Sure, but people aren't going to totally agree on a way forward and identifying the groups actively creating those roadblocks outside of truly egregious examples. Someone can be an activist with demonstrable events of change under their belt, but they may still support certain depictions in the media that others in that group may deem problematic and something that should change as well. That being said, unification is definitely important.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity:

In what terms would high heels be appropriate for a female character design? I like wearing high heels because they make me feel powerful, but I am also familiar with some women reading high heels as a means to pander to the male gaze. On a similar note, I read these same arguments concerning makeup and its use to make women more sexually attractive towards men. I disagree with this observation because I read makeup as a means of self-empowerment because it is an art form.
High heels would be fine in any situation where a woman isn't going to fighting, running, or doing other kinds of strenuous activity. The problem with them is that it sucks to wear them in those circumstances, yet they're still plastered everywhere with little rhyme or reason.

Follow-up questions would be:
Would a fellow woman designing a woman with high heels be internalizing misogyny or is she merely including a design element because of how empowered high heels make her feel?

Anyone responding to this post should understand that I recognize the complex issues of femininity, the social constructions of femininity as an end-all for female expression and beauty, and the mixed notions of what women contextualize as parts of their self-identity. With that said, let's venture past foundational discussions on representation and go further into the external stimuli that cause imperfections on how women view themselves and their place within the world.
Female artists are probably putting in high heels for the same reason that male ones are. They've been normalized as a sexual identifier of female characters, so it's pretty natural to include them in a ton of designs. I wouldn't even call it misogyny so much as it is an indication of a designer not really thinking through the totality of what their design is trying to communicate.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I don't think it's an illusion. I prefer platforms for obvious reasons, because pumps are quite literally uncomfortable to wear and I don't wear them very often, but I know for a fact that once you're in literal equal standing to your fellow male co-workers then people tend to pay attention to you more. I'm 5'9, which is a respectable height for a person assigned female at birth, but I still feel like I have to loudly jump and proclaim whenever I don't wear anything that makes it seem like I'm the same height as others.

I imagine women that are shorter than me face this pretty regularly and if given the opportunity to wear shoes that make them appear taller, then they'd take the opportunity as long as they could quickly take them off and change into something more comfortable. Working within the hands we're dealt allows me to view pumps as empowering when worn within reason.

I'm obviously against mandating that women wear pumps everyday to work, that's asinine and physically taxing on the body. But I know that whenever I need to assert my dominance in a professional setting then I know that I can weaponize those pumps into something that can work for me rather than the other way around.

I think it's no coincidence that the things women often claim make them feel "empowered" (high heels, makeup, "sexy" clothing) are things that make them look more sexually attractive from a heteronormative viewpoint, instead of things that enhance other qualities that aren't related to attractiveness.

oh and I'm 165 cm tall and I'd rather eat my own feet than wear high heels, professional setting or otherwise lol

So when someone says "I like objectification" as an excuse, what I hear is "I enjoy dehumanizing women and treating them as objects for my own pleasure, and I don't care how much it hurts them on a societal or personal level."

That's really the core of everything I've posted in this thread.

this so much
 
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JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
I don't think it's an illusion. I prefer platforms for obvious reasons, because pumps are quite literally uncomfortable to wear and I don't wear them very often, but I know for a fact that once you're in literal equal standing to your fellow male co-workers then people tend to pay attention to you more. I'm 5'9, which is a respectable height for a person assigned female at birth, but I still feel like I have to loudly jump and proclaim whenever I don't wear anything that makes it seem like I'm the same height as others.

I imagine women that are shorter than me face this pretty regularly and if given the opportunity to wear shoes that make them appear taller, then they'd take the opportunity as long as they could quickly take them off and change into something more comfortable. Working within the genetic hands we're dealt allows me to view pumps as empowering when worn within reason.

I'm obviously against mandating that women wear pumps everyday to work, that's asinine and physically taxing on the body. But I know that whenever I need to assert my dominance in a professional setting then I know that I can weaponize those pumps into something that can work for me rather than the other way around.
I think that makes a lot of sense in the real world -- height is a pretty universal status symbol (for guys too). Honestly not sure if that translates into media -- as in, I wonder if there are better ways to give a sense of power to the player/viewer. If you were creating a character in a game, would you design your character to be short with tall shoes or just be taller? Or maybe it's possible to make the game in a way that challenges the status symbol of height in the first place.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,402
High heels would be fine in any situation where a woman isn't going to fighting, running, or doing other kinds of strenuous activity. The problem with them is that it sucks to wear them in those circumstances, yet they're still plastered everywhere with little rhyme or reason.
Yep.
That's why Irina Reinford (president of a corporation) wearing high heels doesn't bother me one bit, but Laura Arseid, a swordsman, does.

Seems like that'd be easy to understand...

I imagine women that are shorter than me face this pretty regularly and if given the opportunity to wear shoes that make them appear taller, then they'd take the opportunity as long as they could quickly take them off and change into something more comfortable. Working within the genetic hands we're dealt allows me to view pumps as empowering when worn within reason.
As someone far shorter who has worked exclusively in male-dominated fields: never in hell. :P
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
So when someone says "I like objectification" as an excuse, what I hear is "I enjoy dehumanizing women and treating them as objects for my own pleasure, and I don't care how much it hurts them on a societal or personal level."

That's really the core of everything I've posted in this thread.

I don't think they would generally agree with that interpretation. It would likely be about objectification only in specific fantasy scenarios rather than anything creeping into reality where they would obviously support women empowerment and increased representation. How much those fantasy scenarios effect their real world perspective is of course another discussion.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
So when someone says "I like objectification" as an excuse, what I hear is "I enjoy dehumanizing women and treating them as objects for my own pleasure, and I don't care how much it hurts them on a societal or personal level."

That's really the core of everything I've posted in this thread.

Yeah, pretty much this. And I'm sorry for not having that substantive posts anymore but at this point, with how any detailed, well thought out post will be met with such conversation stoppers like "who cares?" or "that's just the way things are", it's just not worth the effort.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Yep.
That's why Irina Reinford (president of a corporation) wearing high heels doesn't bother me one bit, but Laura Arseid, a swordsman, does.

Seems like that'd be easy to understand...


As someone far shorter who has worked exclusively in male-dominated fields: never in hell. :P

Yep, another instance. Style Savvy is a game where you play a fashion designer and sometimes heels is the best choice for a client...but you're a fashion designer so of course heels are fine here.

Also, help, Style Savvy is taking over my life.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
What is this obession with high heels?

I think we yesterday established that only Sagat has clothing fit for fighting
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I don't think they would generally agree with that interpretation. It would likely be about objectification only in specific fantasy scenarios rather than anything creeping into reality where they would obviously support women empowerment and increased representation. How much those fantasy scenarios effect their real world perspective is of course another discussion.

Who is "they"?? Men? I'm telling you what I and many many women who are actually objectified feel about objectification.

There's no such thing as it not creeping into reality. Consuming media IS reality. I still feel like you're not understanding what I mean when I use the word objectification tbh. I'm not talking about hypothetical scenarios. Women really are treated like sexual objects and face the real consequences of that.

Once again, sexual attraction =/= sexual objectification.
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
I'm actually fine with high heels in fighting games too, but it depends on the fighting game. If the game is going for a more grounded tone and the characters look like fighters: knights and viking and ninjas and boxers and MMA fighters, then sticking high heels on a characters is gratuitous stupidity. But if your fighting game is full of zany characters like chefs and butlers and clowns, then putting high heels on the lady in the cocktail dress who bashes people with a bottle of champagne is fine. Just don't dress every female fighter in the game in the same way.

Edit: It also depends on the character. Even if it's a zany fighter but the character's costume doesn't make sense for high heels, that's also tiresome to see.
 
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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
So when someone says "I like objectification" as an excuse, what I hear is "I enjoy dehumanizing women and treating them as objects for my own pleasure, and I don't care how much it hurts them on a societal or personal level."

That's really the core of everything I've posted in this thread.
Exactly.

And it is an excuse. It's an escape from personal responsibility. When a person's a kid I can accept them missing that, but as adults? Not so much.
 

PtM

Banned
Dec 7, 2017
3,582
Huh?

...sex and race are both protected classes. Racist depictions aren't any more illegal than sexist depictions.

edit: And again, I don't think anybody is saying sexism is the same as racism, but they certainly have some useful similarities. I feel the need to reiterate that because people like you constantly misrepresent the conversation in what feels like bad faith. When you walk into the thread to say "racism is worse/different," you're not actually disagreeing with anyone except the straw man you're putting up and you aren't adding anything to the conversation.
Fuck yes. It stinks.
The issue is that most video games involve combat or other forms of action, which makes giving female characters featured in those games completely stupid, and it's only done to pander to the male gaze. If a female character who isn't involved in fighting or physical activity wears them then I don't care much (but of course, if a vast majority of female characters wear them I'm gonna get suspicious).
This might be a little OT, but while high heels might make some women feel empowered, my personal opinion as a woman is that the "empowerment" provided by high heels is just an illusion, because the objective truth is that high heels aren't empowering, but crippling, and exist only to make you look fuckable, not to help you be capable, or smarter, or more athletic, or basically any other positive quality that doesn't involve making dicks hard.
Pretty much my opinion as well.
Ever since I saw an x-ray of a foot in high heels, I've become allergic to them. High heels to me are just some stupid shit, and I have to try to not think lowly of people wearing them.
What I'm suggesting is we need to find a way to pinpoint just how effected we are by specific things and if there's any way to curb it without necessarily giving things up.
Something's always got to give. What you're suggesting is delusional.
I don't think they would generally agree with that interpretation. It would likely be about objectification only in specific fantasy scenarios rather than anything creeping into reality where they would obviously support women empowerment and increased representation. How much those fantasy scenarios effect their real world perspective is of course another discussion.
No, it is not.
 
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