Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Dragmire · Jan 3, 2018

PshycoNinja said:
She's wearing heels there, too. The design for heels is to facilitate control on the Lance. What you think is irrelevant.

Being hyper defensive and presenting facts on how the operation of the magitek Lance and how she uses it are two very different things.

It's just a bit ironic coming from someone who has Lightning in her Lightning Returns outfit where she is hypersexualized with skintight leather with an open back and crotch window. And a sigil in between her breasts just for that extra class. But, yes, please continue to tell me how Aranea's design is more sexualized than how Lightning is designed in any of the three games she's in.

Yeah she's wearing heels there too as I stated in my later post. The point was that those are regular heels and she does the same crap with her spear in them. So the fact that she NEEDS to wear her default ones or any heel at all for Lore reasons is BS to justify her wearing heels.

"Being hyper defensive presenting facts on how the operation of the magitek Lance" haha

My avatar shows the best part of that outfit. And no one has compared anything about Aranea and Lightning. Aside from you and Bazztek because I, a XIII fan, mentioned Aranea. So I can't continue what I never started.

But since you mentioned Lightning again; Light receives her Equilibrium outfit from GOD, and it still doesn't excuse how it looks. The End.

Lotus · Jan 3, 2018

Cindy "owns" it? Can't say I ever got that vibe.

esserius · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
But I fully addressed the point and disagreed with his reasoning.

You missed the point, and in bombastic fashion. The video is NOT about what the creator is doing. The video is NOT a strawman. The video does NOT state that we can't discuss media because it's not real. The video is NOT about flimsy explanations.

It IS about how fiction is arbitrary, and arguments to its "realness" or "in-universe explanation" are rendered unimportant in the face of what real people think about its effects in the real world. That is, a real person's feelings always matter more than the fiction. So, if you see a large group of people all declaring they dislike some media's depiction of them as a group, they matter more because they are real and thus it does not matter whether or not there's a highly descriptive reason as to why some character is objectified, or why racism is fine in-universe.

All of that may matter in-universe, but it means exactly nothing to the real people it hurts - and their pain, unlike the pain we see in fiction, is real.

Bazztek · Jan 3, 2018

Mezentine said:
"Its not real" means that we have to consider everything within the context of its creation. Things are made by people, who live in the world. They communicate things. That's how art works

But this logic falls appart the minute you try to say you can't use in universe explanation to explain things just because that explanation was made by the creators. When looking at art you think about the art itself, not just who made it. Also the bros are all wearing real clothes that actually exist that you can purchase in actual Roen stores in Japan, you can even get Noctis's actual socks.

Dragmire said:
The point still stands, they could of done anything else besides heels. And as I said she wears different shoes for that DLC(still heels) to do the same moves. Lore reason is BS to justify these types of designs.

It couldn't be that his design is trash too? Why yes. Yes it is.

Haha. And this is because of a critique of her heels. Can you be more obvious?

I never said anything about her heels being tired to lore, I was calling you out for your weak attempt at trying to deride Aranea as a Dragoons in comparison to other Dragoons in FF because Aranea is using the magitek lance that propels her, hence inertia controller and other equipment in the menu she has, and she can also move around midair and stay airborne like she does in the fight against her because of the magitek lance propelling her, hence again inertia controller, and hence you're little "oh would be shame if she slips off, the OTHER dragoons never had this problem:^)" insinuation is misguided and based on your ignorance surrounding how her abilities work in comparison to other Dragoons.

Dragmire · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
I never said anything about her heels being tired to lore,

Of course not, it was him:

PshycoNinja said:
You do understand her heels help her grip onto her magitek lance so when she's doing a high jump or flying around on the lance she doesn't slip off, right?

You just came in because I don't think she's Dragoon enough. hahaha

Xaszatm · Jan 3, 2018

Dragmire said:
Of course not, it was him:

You just came in because I don't think she's Dragoon enough. hahaha

Like...that statement that she needs the heels for the lance is so...so strange to me. Like, Ricard from FFII, Kain from FFIV, Cid from FFVII, and Freya from FFIX (though her feet are arched because rat person I guess?) don't wear heels nor need them yet can do the Jump and fight with the lance part just fine...

Mesoian · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
That's a nice video with a strawman used to quantify his pseudo intellectual argument, but according to him it not being real goes two ways and not just "uhh in universe explanation doesn't count!", also this line of thinking makes any attempt at discussing anything fictional moot with this "it's not real so you can't defend it" nonsense. If you are only capable of discussing fictional things under the lens of what the creator was doing instead of what the fictional thing is actually doing then you're just generalizing and painting everything with a broad stroke. Just because Titty anime vampires has a flimsy explation for its characters doesn't mean that's the same case for everything else.

I never said that she uses the heels to latch on to the lance, only that the reason she needs to not slip off like other Dragoons in other FFs is because it's magitek propelled and not just a result of her own jump like dragoons in other FFs, hence the inertia controller, but she does stomp on her enemies like when she stomps on Noctis's face and digs her heel into his face, also Aranea has a boob window for the same reason Gladio is shirtless.

Not even his mentor Cor who is more powerful than him takes off his clothes, yet Gladio does why? No it couldn't be...

Also both of Aranea's outfits are better than any of Lightning's outfits.

So is your point that the sexualized nature of the outfits is important to the world, or is it that you don't care about the sexualized nature of the outfits because Square wanted sexy characters in their game, whether it makes sense or not.

Because yes, Gladio fighting topless against snipers and whatnot is just as stupid and is a also a bad take by the designers of the characters, much in the same way that Aranea pole dancing on her lance and fighting in high heels is stupid and is a bad take by the designers of the characters.

Or is your point that you don't actually care?

Lotus said:
Cindy "owns" it? Can't say I ever got that vibe.

Cindy doesn't get enough screen time to "own" anything.

Dragmire said:
But since you mentioned Lightning again; Light receives her Equilibrium outfit from GOD, and it still doesn't excuse how it looks. The End.

FF13-3 (and in a far more minor way -2) is yet another example of God stealing the pants of women.

PshycoNinja · Jan 3, 2018

Dragmire said:
Yeah she's wearing heels there too as I stated in my later post. The point was that those are regular heels and she does the same crap with her spear in them. So the fact that she NEEDS to wear her default ones or any heel at all for Lore reasons is BS to justify her wearing heels.

"Being hyper defensive presenting facts on how the operation of the magitek Lance" haha

My avatar shows the best part of that outfit. And no one has compared anything about Aranea and Lightning. Aside from you and Bazztek because I, a XIII fan, mentioned Aranea. So I can't continue what I never started.

But since you mentioned Lightning again; Light receives her Equilibrium outfit from GOD, and it still doesn't excuse how it looks. The End.

Dragmire said:
Of course not, it was him:

You just came in because I don't think she's Dragoon enough. hahaha

It's now clear to me you have no intention of actually having a discussion and would rather mock me for giving you a lore reason and would also rather misquote me. There's a reason why there are handles on the Magitek Lance where she can rest her feet. The two different designs of the heels is a redundant argument. The fact is she personally wears heels because it allows her to more comfortably get footing on those bars when she's doing Dragoon moves. I don't see how her wearing over designed heels because of that is "sexist" or is supposed to make her "sexy" in any meaningful way.

Xaszatm said:
Like...that statement that she needs the heels for the lance is so...so strange to me. Like, Ricard from FFII, Kain from FFIV, Cid from FFVII, and Freya from FFIX (though her feet are arched because rat person I guess?) don't wear heels nor need them yet can do the Jump and fight with the lance part just fine...

Please read above this about the reasoning.

Additionally, none of those other characters could fly around on their lances and could only perform "jumps". Aranea is a non-magic user. Her Magitek Lance combined with her own acrobatic abilities allows her to pull off what she does. (Like "flying" around.) So, she isn't jumping up and then coming back down. Her lance is being propelled which is propelling her. I suppose she could wear regular shoes and try riding the lance like a broom, but clearly that isn't how she uses her lance.

This is my last post of the night. It's 10:30 PM here and I still have to prepare for tomorrow. Plus, this tangent has gone on long enough because someone was talking about how they hate high heels on every female in Korean MMOs and somehow Fran and Aranea got pulled into it. Considering the thread I also wanted to post some of the terrible XIII female designs in the three games that were hypersexualized but considering the derailment since the first response, I think it's best to leave it where it is tonight.

Bazztek · Jan 3, 2018

Dice said:
Dude has a giant tattoo across his upper body, of course he'd show it off. I would too if I were him.
Comparing male and female sexualization is incredibly different. Men and women get an incredibly different response when they go outside topless (obviously in that it's way more socially acceptable for men to do it than women; like it or not, or how arbitrary that may seem, that's just the way it is). Also these shots of Gladio are sexy but not 'sexualized'. He's not sticking his ass in front of the camera or making kissy faces at the camera --- that there is a power pose, not a sexualized one.

Gladio looks like he's about to kick ass; sexualized women tend to bend in ways to seem vulnerable or incredibly approachable and almost longing.

For example: Cindy not only wears something incredibly revealing to work (which is impractical and terribly uncomfortable), but also the game offers this voyeuristic view right into her cleavage and she's the only one given this treatment

But let's keep going with this.

This is a sexualized genderbent Cindy. It's a bit of fun and seems to capture the spirit of the original! Again, incredibly inappropriate work attire (meant to emphasize physical features that one would usually not show off in a workplace), and a particularly inviting look (despite how vague that term might be, you can see the difference pretty easily between Man-Cidney and shots of Gladio). Surely in another world where this is real, we'd see him standing ass-out washing the car.

This is a really cool fan-drawn alternative outfit that is totally viable for the work she does and still retains a hint of fashionable and sexy elements

This poster pin-up was designed with all the important details like short-shorts, tan lines and a visible thong for ???????? reasons.

Aranea has a few sexualized elements too....generally none to big for me to pick a fight for though, she and Luna are generally okay. I think you trying to defend sexualization because Gladio exists is a big misfire though.

Two of the screenshots you posted of Cindy are from the demo with the second being a manual camera movement you can do for anything on screen, only one (her wipng the window) is from the actual game, however the camera focussed on her doesn't make Cindy a sexual character, there's a difference between dressing in revealing outfits and the character themselves written to being sexual. The Cindy filling up the car animation is something Noctis also has one for and there is nothing sexual about either.

Cindy isn't sexual in that nothing she says or does is sexual, pretty much all her dialog is about the car, car related/engineering related things, her grandpa, a brief hint at her parents, and all she does in the game is fix the car or upgrade it or mod it, and also tell you to go to steyliff to get mythril to fix the boat. Not denying her design is sexy but the character herself, as in her characterization isn't sexual in intent or nature. She doesn't make "kissy lips" either, that frame of her looking at the camera is a split second freeze frame from a less than 2 second shot from the demo. Cindy is presented as being enamoured by the car itself, even in the ontour quest where Prompto is trying to flirt with her she's oblivious. On top of that she's a very minor character in the game and not even a party member.

If you want to see other non party member women in XV look at Luna or Camelia or Sania or Ezma or Holly or Monica, all women in leadership positions or the highest of political positions within the game.

Btw one of the first things you see in the game is Gladio's gluteus maximus in your face while he's pushing the car.

There is a difference between dressing revealing and being written to be sexual, hence my bringing up Gladio as an example, as he's as "sexual" as Cindy or Aranea are.

Xaszatm · Jan 3, 2018

PshycoNinja said:
It's now clear to me you have no intention of actually having a discussion and would rather mock me for giving you a lore reason and would also rather misquote me. There's a reason why there are handles on the Magitek Lance where she can rest her feet. The two different designs of the heels is a redundant argument. The fact is she personally wears heels because it allows her to more comfortably get footing on those bars when she's doing Dragoon moves. I don't see how her wearing over designed heels because of that is "sexist" or is supposed to make her "sexy" in any meaningful way.

Please read above this about the reasoning.

Additionally, none of those other characters could fly around on their lances and could only perform "jumps". Aranea is a non-magic user. Her Magitek Lance combined with her own acrobatic abilities allows her to pull off what she does. (Like "flying" around.) So, she isn't jumping up and then coming back down. Her lance is being propelled which is propelling her. I suppose she could wear regular shoes and try riding the lance like a broom, but clearly that isn't how she uses her lance.

This is my last post of the night. It's 10:30 PM here and I still have to prepare for tomorrow. Plus, this tangent has gone on long enough because someone was talking about how they hate high heels on every female in Korean MMOs and somehow Fran and Aranea got pulled into it. Considering the thread I also wanted to post some of the terrible XIII female designs in the three games that were hypersexualized but considering the derailment since the first response, I think it's best to leave it where it is tonight.

Think about what you are saying. What exactly requires her feet to be wearing heels for her to attach to the lance? I mean, for all we care, she could be wearing grav-boots and the concept could still work, yet they went for heels. And if we're really going to go with "this game too old to show action like FFXV so there" excuse we're into fan fighting territory. The heels are stupid, even with justification because we can come up with others and it would still work. So the question follows up with "Why was heels chosen in the design process and not, say, grav-boots, or anything similar?"

Bazztek · Jan 3, 2018

esserius said:
You missed the point, and in bombastic fashion. The video is NOT about what the creator is doing. The video is NOT a strawman. The video does NOT state that we can't discuss media because it's not real. The video is NOT about flimsy explanations.

It IS about how fiction is arbitrary, and arguments to its "realness" or "in-universe explanation" are rendered unimportant in the face of what real people think about its effects in the real world. That is, a real person's feelings always matter more than the fiction. So, if you see a large group of people all declaring they dislike some media's depiction of them as a group, they matter more because they are real and thus it does not matter whether or not there's a highly descriptive reason as to why some character is objectified, or why racism is fine in-universe.

All of that may matter in-universe, but it means exactly nothing to the real people it hurts - and their pain, unlike the pain we see in fiction, is real.

No, I addressed that point for the flawed reasoning it is, and he absolutely did try to pull an "I AM SILLY" when trying to form his initial point by his portrayal of the position he's arguing against. If all you care about is the creators context and not what the thing itself is then why even care about fictional things to begin with? It's reductive in that ignores the intent of the creator while at the same time trying to say you should only care about the intent. Like I said it's a generalization used to try and paint with a broad stroke instead of looking at things case by case and at the things themselves. Am I supposed to feel pain because I'm not a chiseled adonis like Gladio? This kind of logic throws out any reason to even talk about fictional things if the only thing you're allowed to talk about is the creators context.

Mesoian said:
So is your point that the sexualized nature of the outfits is important to the world, or is it that you don't care about the sexualized nature of the outfits because Square wanted sexy characters in their game, whether it makes sense or not.

Because yes, Gladio fighting topless against snipers and whatnot is just as stupid and is a also a bad take by the designers of the characters, much in the same way that Aranea pole dancing on her lance and fighting in high heels is stupid and is a bad take by the designers of the characters.

Or is your point that you don't actually care?

Cindy doesn't get enough screen time to "own" anything.

FF13-3 (and in a far more minor way -2) is yet another example of God stealing the pants of women.

My point is that trying to single out Aranea or Cindy for impractical outfits while ignoring everything else and everyone else in the game is a dishonest argument, I don't even know why Cindy gets mentioned so often in these kinda threads when she's such a minor character with little to no importance to the overall story and isn't even a fighter/party member. It'd be like getting hung up on the dancer in FF4. Cindy's outfit design doesn't have anything to do with her characterization, she could be covered head to toe or she could be in nothing but a bikini and it wouldn't change her characterization. Same way if I dress Noctis in his cup noodle hat or his Sombrero it's not gonna have anything to do with him as a character.

JustinP · Jan 3, 2018

So I'm not too familiar with FFXV but is this guy seriously arguing that the chick in booty shorts and a bikini top washing your car isn't about sex appeal? Where do these people come from? Who do they think they're fooling? Are they 14 years old? I'm seriously finding it hard to believe these people aren't trolling with these laughable arguments.

Choppasmith · Jan 3, 2018

Xaszatm said:
Think about what you are saying. What exactly requires her feet to be wearing heels for her to attach to the lance? I mean, for all we care, she could be wearing grav-boots and the concept could still work, yet they went for heels. And if we're really going to go with "this game too old to show action like FFXV so there" excuse we're into fan fighting territory. The heels are stupid, even with justification because we can come up with others and it would still work. So the question follows up with "Why was heels chosen in the design process and not, say, grav-boots, or anything similar?"

This particular discussion reminds me of this

I found it (I was looking for this much much earlier in the thread)! But seriously I could understand someone saying, "You know heels are dumb, but I think it kinda works in this particular situation. That's probably what they were thinking." Actually didn't someone just say that about Fran? Edit : Ah yes Mewshuji But I think seriously trying to argue its in game justification just makes you look like the above comic.

Mezentine · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
Two of the screenshots you posted of Cindy are from the demo with the second being a manual camera movement you can do for anything on screen, only one (her wipng the window) is from the actual game, however the camera focussed on her doesn't make Cindy a sexual character, there's a difference between dressing in revealing outfits and the character themselves written to being sexual. The Cindy filling up the car animation is something Noctis also has one for and there is nothing sexual about either.

I literally started playing FFXV for the first time like two weeks ago so believe me when I say from very fresh memories that when she features prominently in cutscenes she is absolutely sexualized and she moves in a manner that often is coded as "sexy"

Bazztek · Jan 3, 2018

JustinP said:
So I'm not too familiar with FFXV but is this guy seriously arguing that the chick in booty shorts and a bikini top washing your car isn't about sex appeal? Where do these people come from? Who do they think they're fooling? Are they 14 years old? I'm seriously finding it hard to believe these people aren't trolling with these laughable arguments.

It's obvious you havnt played it since you're just judging based on her design which is sexy and not her characterization which isn't sexual at all.

Mezentine said:
I literally started playing FFXV for the first time like two weeks ago so believe me when I say from very fresh memories that when she features prominently in cutscenes she is absolutely sexualized and she moves in a manner that often is coded as "sexy"

I've put in over 100 hours into it and she doesn't, she moves like a person does, and just because she also happens to be in a sexy design you're equating that to her being sexual in characterization despite the fact that she isn't. Camera placement is not characterization either.

Tfritz · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
My point is that trying to single out Aranea or Cindy for impractical outfits while ignoring everything else and everyone else in the game is a dishonest argument, I don't even know why Cindy gets mentioned so often in these kinda threads when she's such a minor character with little to no importance to the overall story and isn't even a fighter/party member. It'd be like getting hung up on the dancer in FF4. Cindy's outfit design doesn't have anything to do with her characterization, she could be covered head to toe or she could be in nothing but a bikini and it wouldn't change her characterization. Same way if I dress Noctis in his cup noodle hat or his Sombrero it's not gonna have anything to do with him as a character.

Aranea's design should be criticized because unlike the Chocobros, who are largely wearing just clothes, she gets actual armor and it still has a boob window and heels.

JustinP · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
It's obvious you havnt played it since you're just judging based on her design which is sexy and not her characterization which isn't sexual at all.

I've put in over 100 hours into it and she doesn't, she moves like a person does, and just because she also happens to be in a sexy design you're equating that to her being sexual in characterization despite the fact that she isn't. Camera placement is not characterization either.

Xaszatm · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
It's obvious you havnt played it since you're just judging based on her design which is sexy and not her characterization which isn't sexual at all.

I've put in over 100 hours into it and she doesn't, she moves like a person does, and just because she also happens to be in a sexy design you're equating that to her being sexual in characterization despite the fact that she isn't. Camera placement is not characterization either.

THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT THE CAMERA IS TRYING TO SEXUALIZE HER SO MUCH NONE OF HER ACTUAL PERSONALITY IS SHOWING THROUGH! OF COURSE A SEXY DESIGN =/= SEXUAL CHARACTERIZATION! IT'S PART OF THE WHOLE PROBLEM! WHY IS HER CHARACTER DESIGNED TO BE SEXY IN DEFIANCE OF ALL OTHER PERSONALITY!?!

Mezentine · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
It's obvious you havnt played it since you're just judging based on her design which is sexy and not her characterization which isn't sexual at all.

The complete disconnect between her design and her characterization is a fairly significant part of the problem so at this point I have no idea what your argument even is

Dice · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
Two of the screenshots you posted of Cindy are from the demo with the second being a manual camera movement you can do for anything on screen, only one (her wipng the window) is from the actual game, however the camera focussed on her doesn't make Cindy a sexual character, there's a difference between dressing in revealing outfits and the character themselves written to being sexual. The Cindy filling up the car animation is something Noctis also has one for and there is nothing sexual about either.

Cindy isn't sexual in that nothing she says or does is sexual, pretty much all her dialog is about the car, car related/engineering related things, her grandpa, a brief hint at her parents, and all she does in the game is fix the car or upgrade it or mod it, and also tell you to go to steyliff to get mythril to fix the boat. Not denying her design is sexy but the character herself, as in her characterization isn't sexual in intent or nature. She doesn't make "kissy lips" either, that frame of her looking at the camera is a split second freeze frame from a less than 2 second shot from the demo. Cindy is presented as being enamoured by the car itself, even in the ontour quest where Prompto is trying to flirt with her she's oblivious. On top of that she's a very minor character in the game and not even a party member.

If you want to see other non party member women in XV look at Luna or Camelia or Sania or Ezma or Holly or Monica, all women in leadership positions or the highest of political positions within the game.

I have very little beef with the women in FFXV; I want Luna's entire wardrobe, I love Aranea's armor, and I even liked the way some of middle-aged NPCs were designed.
Which unfortunately makes Cindy stick out like a sore thumb. Kinda with what you're saying, nothing else about her would have you assume she'd be dressed this way, it's just there... for no reason. People find some frustration with Cindy because she IS such an obvious example of the problem; everything else about her is perfectly normal, likable even. But their outfits just become obvious distractions and demeaning when it's how you constantly see women in games being depicted. It almost feel like a 'necessity' to have at least one "sexy character" (developers have made jokes about which girl is "the biggest"). It's a big elephant in the room that no one, in-game, talks about because it's implicitly accepted in this world that dumb/revealing outfits are "normal" while male characters are way more often the ones dressed appropriate or from head-to-toe.

I think a lot of the reason these designs raise a red flag in some ways is because they cause such a dissonance up against the reality of real women and it's obvious why they are designed to be sexy (and there's usually no deep philosophical reason to it other than "it's hot"). Sure it's "just fantasy", but up to a point it becomes worrisome and sometimes actualizes into troubling ideas about how women should look or that constant voyeurism of their bodies is harmless. This can be a big part of the problem; and I think more average gamers are kinda seeing that developers go out of their way to 'squeeze' (literally sometimes) this stuff into games when nothing about the scene or story calls for it.

Squeeze in those metal nipples!!!! A literal bust shot than a headshot.

^ This one just makes me laugh because she can't even put her hands on her chest without having them tilt horizontally.

"BUT THE ARTIST!!!!!!!!!" or something.

Again you keep trying to tell me Gladio is sexualized. I don't see it nor do I feel anything by it. Again to be sexualized, specific body parts need to be almost exaggerated to some effect --- all I see there is a man pushing his car. And, even still, I don't think he's a compelling enough case over the infinitely larger pool of female characters to pick from on the same issue.

Also Combating sexualized women with men just...doesn't really work, I don't think women are "primed" that way nearly as much as guys have because female sexualized imagery is so much more ubiquitous and the standard.

It's also just so goddamn prevalent it's annoying.

Bazztek · Jan 3, 2018

JustinP said:

Seems you're having a hard time understanding that character design is not the same thing as characterization. Her personality, her dialog, what she says and what she does isn't sexual. Her design being sexy is completely seperate from her characterization.

I never denied her design being sexy, I'm saying as a character she doesn't say or do anything sexual.

Wiping a window the way she does is not sexual, it looks normal but just because her boobs are in frame doesn't make her sexual, again her design and characterization are two different things.

Mezentine · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
Seems you're having a hard time understanding that character design is not the same thing as characterization. Her personality, her dialog, what she says and what she does isn't sexual. Her design being sexy is completely seperate from her characterization.

I never denied her design being sexy, I'm saying as a character she doesn't say or do anything sexual.

Wiping a window the way she does is not sexual, it looks normal but just because her boobs are in frame doesn't make her sexual, again her design and characterization are two different things.

The fact that there is this disconnect is one of the main things we are criticizing. It ties precisely into how fictional characters lack agency and their sexualization is done by their creators, for the viewers, at the expense of good characterization

Antiwhippy · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
Seems you're having a hard time understanding that character design is not the same thing as characterization. Her personality, her dialog, what she says and what she does isn't sexual. Her design being sexy is completely seperate from her characterization.

I never denied her design being sexy, I'm saying as a character she doesn't say or do anything sexual.

Wiping a window the way she does is not sexual, it looks normal but just because her boobs are in frame doesn't make her sexual, again her design and characterization are two different things.

I think the point is that makes it even worse. Because the design is not justified by the character or the story.

Morrigan · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
Wiping a window the way she does is not sexual, it looks normal but just because her boobs are in frame doesn't make her sexual, again her design and characterization are two different things.

Er. Yeah, we do agree that sex/sexuality is not the same thing as sexualization.

I don't think anyone said that Cindy is a sexual character. They're saying she's sexualized.

Do you not understand the difference? Serious question.

Lotus · Jan 3, 2018

Xaszatm said:
THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT THE CAMERA IS TRYING TO SEXUALIZE HER SO MUCH NONE OF HER ACTUAL PERSONALITY IS SHOWING THROUGH! OF COURSE A SEXY DESIGN =/= SEXUAL CHARACTERIZATION! IT'S PART OF THE WHOLE PROBLEM! WHY IS HER CHARACTER DESIGNED TO BE SEXY IN DEFIANCE OF ALL OTHER PERSONALITY!?!

This, nothing about Cindy comes off as a woman that's clearly aware of her sexuality. They give her that sexy design, but her personality doesn't match it at all. Just makes it super apparent that the goal was to pander first and foremost.

Xaszatm · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
Seems you're having a hard time understanding that character design is not the same thing as characterization. Her personality, her dialog, what she says and what she does isn't sexual. Her design being sexy is completely seperate from her characterization.

I never denied her design being sexy, I'm saying as a character she doesn't say or do anything sexual.

Wiping a window the way she does is not sexual, it looks normal but just because her boobs are in frame doesn't make her sexual, again her design and characterization are two different things.

And it seems you are having a hard time understanding why the camera acting like a lewd rubbernecking pervert is part of the problem. Design needs to spell intent, especial for visual mediums. If her design is doing something completely different from her personality, you're doing something wrong.

PshycoNinja · Jan 3, 2018

Xaszatm said:
Think about what you are saying. What exactly requires her feet to be wearing heels for her to attach to the lance? I mean, for all we care, she could be wearing grav-boots and the concept could still work, yet they went for heels. And if we're really going to go with "this game too old to show action like FFXV so there" excuse we're into fan fighting territory. The heels are stupid, even with justification because we can come up with others and it would still work. So the question follows up with "Why was heels chosen in the design process and not, say, grav-boots, or anything similar?"

Real last post, but I am really tired of words being put into my mouth. (And actually tired, holy crap it's 11PM and I need to be up in four hours! T_T) I did not say this nor did I insinuate that. I said Kain, Cid, and the rest perform jumps and to my knowledge don't fly around in the air the way Aranea does with her Magitek Lance that is propelling her in the air. Not once did I say what you are trying insinuate.

I didn't say it wasn't stupid. I'm not telling you what to think. I am telling you, practically, why she chose to wear heels. It's fine if you would rather have "grav-boots" specially tested and made for Aranea and her alone. Hell, I sure as hell would want a big groove of some sort for shoes I would be wearing so I can firmly plant my feet so I don't fall off the lance going at the speed it goes.

I, personally, don't believe a character wearing heels makes them sexier. And saying a character is oversexualized because of heels feels like a bit much. That's fine if others feel differently but that's where I draw the line. Bikinis? Sure. Leather tight everything? Sure. Over abundance of exposed skin? Sure. Heels? No, sorry.

Edit: As for the original post talking about every female in Korean MMOs wearing heels and how that is sexist, I agree with that. For some reason that is a standard and stereotype in many of those MMOs that should be addressed.

JustinP · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
Seems you're having a hard time understanding that character design is not the same thing as characterization. Her personality, her dialog, what she says and what she does isn't sexual. Her design being sexy is completely seperate from her characterization.

I never denied her design being sexy, I'm saying as a character she doesn't say or do anything sexual.

Wiping a window the way she does is not sexual, it looks normal but just because her boobs are in frame doesn't make her sexual, again her design and characterization are two different things.

Except as far as I can tell, nobody you have argued with has suggested her dialog or whatever was sexual — it's obvious you only brought it up as a blatant attempt to employ nutty mental gymnastics to defend her design. Same goes for your argument that it's not a problem because she isn't a major character. You seem oblivious to how that makes her character even more objectified because she's essentially little more than eye candy. Or you're just trolling.

Your arguments are so ridiculous I'm honestly surprised anybody here actually takes you seriously.

Deleted member 7130 · Jan 3, 2018

PshycoNinja said:

If I were born yesterday, and I was just explained the concept of a video game, and then you showed me this image, I'd say this was a video game about pole dancing.

Bazztek · Jan 3, 2018

Dice said:
I have very little beef with the women in FFXV; I want Luna wardrobe, I love Aranea's armor, and I even liked the way some of middle-aged NPCs were designed.
Which unfortunately makes Cindy stick out like a sore thumb. Kinda with what you're saying, nothing else about her would have you assume she'd be dressed this way, it's just there... for no reason. People find some frustration with Cindy because she IS such an obvious example of the problem; everything else about her is perfectly normal, likable even --- but I think it's just a bad design in her case, or MGSV's Quiet needing to breath while dancing in the rain, or Pyra's tight outfit against her more demure personality... Their outfits just become obvious distractions and demeaning when it's how you constantly see women being depicted. It almost feel like a necessity in so many games to have their "sexy character" (developers have made jokes about which girl is "the biggest") just for the sake of having it. It's a big elephant in the room that no one in-game talks about because it's implicitly accepted in this world that dumb/revealing outfits are "normal" and never brought up while male characters are dressed up from head-to-tow. This can be a big part of the problem; and I think more average gamers are kinda seeing that developers go out of their way to 'squeeze things in':

Squeeze in those metal nipples!!!! A literal bust shot than a head shot.

^ This one just makes me laugh because she can't even put her hands on her chest without having them tilt horizontally.

"BUT THE ARTIST!!!!!!!!!" or something.

Again you keep trying to tell me Gladio is sexualized. I don't see it nor do I feel anything by it. Again to be sexualized, specific body parts need to be almost exaggerated to some effect --- all I see there is a man pushing his car. And, even still, I don't think he's a compelling enough case over the infinitely larger pool of female characters to pick from on the same issue.

Also Combating sexualized women with men just...doesn't really work, I don't think women are "primed" that way nearly as much as guys have because female sexualized imagery is so much more ubiquitous and the standard.

But out of like the 8-10 or so women characters in XV only two have sexy designs (also Shiva) while the rest are mostly covered full body, so to always fixate on Cindy and decry the game for her but ignore the examples I posted like Camelia or Sania or Monica, or Holly who is also an engineer who all dress pretty much mostly covered up and appropriately, despite them being side characters the same as Cindy, just comes across very as a very selective argument, cherry picking if you will. I don't deny Cindy is designed to look sexy but the character herself (not her design) doesn't act or say anything sexual.

Like if Cindy was in this outfit from the official art no one would have taken such issue.

JustinP said:
Except as far as I can tell, nobody you have argued with has suggested her dialog or whatever was sexual — it's obvious you only brought it up as a blatant attempt to employ nutty mental gymnastics to defend her design. Same goes for your argument that it's not a problem because she isn't a major character. You seem oblivious to how that makes her character even more objectified because she's essentially little more than eye candy. Or you're just trolling.

Your arguments are so ridiculous I'm honestly surprised anybody here actually takes you seriously.

But I never said her design wasn't sexy?
Lol did you actually pay attention to anything I said? Maybe you should take a breather and actually read over my posts slowly before jumping to conclusions. I'm saying her characterization isn't sexual just because her design is, also almost every character in the game is eye candy.

Twig · Jan 3, 2018

People focus on Cindy because the fucking game focuses on Cindy.

But you know this and are doing it on purpose.

HardTimesFamilyPride · Jan 3, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
I agree with a lot of this, but I think there being a sort of spectrum for a hypothetical "endgame" of progress makes more sense than saying we all want the same thing, because really not everyone does. For some, it could be diminishing the prevalence of objectification. For others, it could be purging it entirely. For others it could be increasing it, and others still equalizing it among genders. It's why compromise is necessary, particularly with already-established inclinations which I already talked about in my other big post. But I feel that an inability to budge will make that difficult.

And trust me, I've certainly learned a lot from this thread and do take each response in good faith unless I feel that I'm being attacked. But at the same time, I've found that some of my views are irreconcilable with many people, and it's a shame because I like the discourse and only see it getting more venomous going forward were I to continue to post.

And I do understand your point here as well. As I said to the person I was having the back-and-forth with in the restaurant thread, there comes a point where it's important and most constructive to focus on those posters who you feel can give you things to think on while also taking your words in good faith. Signal:noise ratio, if you will. There will always be folks who will adamantly be opposed to your thoughts; don't let them hamper your own path of growth. They are on their own path and what I said to you about listening and internalizing it applies to them as well. Focusing on those extreme views that will not budge and responding to them only amplifies them at the expense of other posts which might be more conducive to sparking change. That's why I'm focusing on this convo and not the one about heels that is currently taking precedence in the thread. More on that in a sec.

What I just said also goes for the endpoint. I agree it's not a set-in-stone thing. That's why I tried to focus on individual agency in my post, and claimed the endgoal, if there is one, is more a cultural shift than a hard rule set. At risk of sounding naiive or even contradicting what I last posted, I think as things become more equal those people we're talking about will also be called out for trying to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. But idk... I've come to accept that our nature as humans generally favours that instead of actual balance, and that's a frustration I have to learn to let go of in order to focus on cultivating that balance in my own life.

Brings me back to a post I wanted to make in the "Toxicity and ERA" thread right before it got locked. When the GAF drama happened I holed up on SL&ENT, and one of the mods there got into a few discussions with other posters about arguments online and how he looks at them; he brought up the backfire effect a lot and stated that when he engages others over the Internet he doesn't expect their minds to change. Instead, he tries to focus on providing constructive food for thought - not only for the person(s) he is directly talking to, but in consideration of the numerous people who will inevitably be reading the discussion and might be triggered into delving deeper into a subject because of his words.

It really spoke to me. I know that I was one of those readers on GAF threads about racism, and I've stated on this site a few times that as strong as my reactions against some of the posters in those discussions were, it made me think, and research, and learn, and understand. In that sense, all we have the power to do is plant seeds in others' consciousnesses. We can't choose if those seeds are properly nourished - once they're planted that becomes the other person's responsibility - but we can ensure they are as viable in their truth and compassion as possible.

Cheers!

Xaszatm · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
But out of like the 8-10 or so women characters in XV only two have sexy designs (also Shiva) while the rest are mostly covered full body, so to always fixate on Cindy and decry the game for her but ignore the examples I posted like Camelia or Sania or Monica, or Holly who is also an engineer who all dress pretty much mostly covered up and appropriately, despite them being side characters the same as Cindy, just comes across very as a very selective argument, cherry picking if you will. I don't deny Cindy is designed to look sexy but the character herself (not her design) doesn't act or say anything sexual.

Like if Cindy was in this outfit from the official art no one would have taken such issue.

...AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course no one would take issue with her design there. She isn't wearing a rediculous outfit there. You still don't freaking get it.

Dice · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
Like if Cindy was in this outfit from the official art no one would have taken such issue.

She'd fit into the game then and wouldn't be a walking pin-up girl.

JustinP · Jan 3, 2018

Not worth engaging with people like that.

Dragmire · Jan 3, 2018

PshycoNinja · Jan 3, 2018

Yerba_Sutra said:
And I do understand your point here as well. As I said to the person I was having the back-and-forth with in the restaurant thread, there comes a point where it's important and most constructive to focus on those posters who you feel can give you things to think on while also taking your words in good faith. Signal:noise ratio, if you will. There will always be folks who will adamantly be opposed to your thoughts; don't let them hamper your own path of growth. They are on their own path and what I said to you about listening and internalizing it applies to them as well. Focusing on those extreme views that will not budge and responding to them only amplifies them at the expense of other posts which might be more conducive to sparking change. That's why I'm focusing on this convo and not the one about heels that is currently taking precedence in the thread. More on that in a sec.

What I just said also goes for the endpoint. I agree it's not a set-in-stone thing. That's why I tried to focus on individual agency in my post, and claimed the endgoal, if there is one, is a more a cultural shift than a hard rule set. At risk of sounding naiive or even contradicting what I last posted, I think as things become more equal those people we're talking about will also be called out for trying to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. But idk... I've come to accept that our nature as humans generally favours that instead of actual balance, and that's a frustration I have to learn to let go of in order to focus on cultivating that balance in my own life.

Brings me back to a post I wanted to make in the "Toxicity and ERA" thread right before it got locked. When the GAF drama happened I holed up on SL&ENT, and one of the mods there got into a few discussions with other posters about arguments online and how he looks at them; he brought up the backfire effect a lot and stated that when he engages others over the Internet he doesn't expect their minds to change. Instead, he tries to focus on providing constructive food for thought - not only for the person(s) he is directly talking to, but in consideration of the numerous people who will inevitably be reading the discussion and might be triggered into delving deeper into a subject because of his words.

It really spoke to me. I know that I was one of those readers on GAF threads about racism, and I've stated on this site a few times that as strong as my reactions against some of the posters in those discussions were, it made me think, and research, and learn, and understand. In that sense, all we have the power to do is plant seeds in others' consciousnesses. We can't choose if those seeds are properly nourished - once they're planted that becomes the other person's responsibility - but we can ensure they are as viable in their truth and compassion as possible.

Cheers!

These are the two best posts I have read all day. Thank you for the food for thought. And goodnight.

Twig · Jan 3, 2018

Televator said:
If I were born yesterday, and I was just explained the concept of a video game, and then you showed me this image, I'd say this was a video game about pole dancing.

What gets to me most about that image is how the head just looks like a completely different art style.

The fuck is going on there.

Bazztek · Jan 3, 2018

Xaszatm said:
THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT THE CAMERA IS TRYING TO SEXUALIZE HER SO MUCH NONE OF HER ACTUAL PERSONALITY IS SHOWING THROUGH! OF COURSE A SEXY DESIGN =/= SEXUAL CHARACTERIZATION! IT'S PART OF THE WHOLE PROBLEM! WHY IS HER CHARACTER DESIGNED TO BE SEXY IN DEFIANCE OF ALL OTHER PERSONALITY!?!

Xaszatm said:
And it seems you are having a hard time understanding why the camera acting like a lewd rubbernecking pervert is part of the problem. Design needs to spell intent, especial for visual mediums. If her design is doing something completely different from her personality, you're doing something wrong.

All caps huh. Her personality definitely comes across, but what you're ignoring is that whether she's fully clothed or skimpy outfitted doesn't impact her personality, the same way you say her with her boobs in frame on display doesn't show her actual personality by the same token if she was covered it still wouldn't, because her outfit isn't her personality, nor is the camera so it doesn't matter.

There's no reason why Noctis would wear a cup noodle hat, him wearing one doesn't inpact his personality.

Twig said:
People focus on Cindy because the fucking game focuses on Cindy.

But you know this and are doing it on purpose.

She's as much the focus as Sania or Camelia.

Morrigan said:
Er. Yeah, we do agree that sex/sexuality is not the same thing as sexualization.

I don't think anyone said that Cindy is a sexual character. They're saying she's sexualized.

Do you not understand the difference? Serious question.

Of course.

Dragmire · Jan 3, 2018

Twig said:
The fuck is going on there.

Different artists designed the main outfits and those are different variations of those same designs.

Twig · Jan 3, 2018

I guess at least I like most of the outfits in that image. But man that first image wow it just looks weird.

Like the head is a much more realistic style. And...too big for that body. Looks out of proportion?

God it looks weird no matter how many times I look at it.

Dragmire · Jan 3, 2018

Twig said:
I guess at least I like most of the outfits in that image.

Way more than I do. haha

HardTimesFamilyPride · Jan 3, 2018

PshycoNinja said:
These are the two best posts I have read all day. Thank you for the food for thought. And goodnight.

Please do savour it. Come back when it's been fully digested and use the energy & nutrients it provides you to help establish a more level and focused discussion that can provide more food for thought for all of us.

Deleted member 7130 · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek are you saying sexualization doesn't matter as long as the personality of the character isn't sexual?

Twig · Jan 3, 2018

Yerba_Sutra said:
Please do savour it. Come back when it's been fully digested and use the energy & nutrients it provides you to help establish a more level and focused discussion that can provide more food for thought for all of us.

:|

too much

HardTimesFamilyPride · Jan 3, 2018

Look I'm in an analogy mood ok

also I might be really hungry

Hidden content

Xaszatm · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
All caps huh. Her personality definitely comes across, but what you're ignoring is that whether she's fully clothed or skimpy outfitted doesn't impact her personality, the same way you say her with her boobs in frame on display doesn't show her actual personality by the same token if she was covered it still wouldn't, because her outfit isn't her personality, nor is the camera so it doesn't matter.

Why yes, your complete stubborn refusal (whether purposeful or not) to see why people have an issue with Cid and even trying to accuse others of "not seeing her true personality" is quite capable of driving me up a goddamn wall especially since we are on page 95/190 of discussion and we are still on step one. I know her personality. It has nothing to do with her outfit NOR with the fact that the camera should be arrested for sexual harassment. Like, how are you not seeing the point? What do you think the point is? That she is a shitty character because we hate her personality? Because we aren't and have never said a single thing about her personality. Hell, I like her as a character, which is why her outfit and the fact the camera shows her such disrespect is why I'm so insulted by it. Am I clear yet? Or are you going to go on another "true personality rant" again and subtly hint that I'm to stupid for you arguements because after post and post of continued refusal to get it, I finally snapped?

Bazztek · Jan 3, 2018

Televator said:
Bazztek are you saying sexualization doesn't matter as long as the personality of the character isn't sexual?

No. I'm merely pointing out that Cindy isn't sexual in nature despite her sexy/revealing design, hence why I brought up Gladio earlier in relation to Aranea too.

And on the subject of creator context, I believe Roberto Ferrari mentioned that the intent behind Aranea's design, as well as his Biggs and Wedge was akin to that of Doronjo and her underlings back when he designed them in 2010.

Which you can see why he got that inspiration since Ferrari was involved in Tatsunoko anime since the 90s which includes Doronjo, he mentioned his original Biggs and Wedge design had similar design to Aranea's armour, but the Biggs and Wedge were changed to different designs in the final game. The one's they have here look more in line with the snow outfit Aranea wears in episode Prompto.

Deleted member 7130 · Jan 3, 2018

Bazztek said:
No. I'm merely pointing out that Cindy isn't sexual in nature despite her sexy/revealing design, hence why I brought up Gladio earlier in relation to Aranea too.

I'm not understanding what you're arguing for or against despite going back to the beginning of your conversation. What do you think people have a problem with in regards to this character?

Bazztek · Jan 3, 2018

Xaszatm said:
Why yes, your complete stubborn refusal (whether purposeful or not) to see why people have an issue with Cid and even trying to accuse others of "not seeing her true personality" is quite capable of driving me up a goddamn wall especially since we are on page 95/190 of discussion and we are still on step one. I know her personality. It has nothing to do with her outfit NOR with the fact that the camera should be arrested for sexual harassment. Like, how are you not seeing the point? What do you think the point is? That she is a shitty character because we hate her personality? Because we aren't and have never said a single thing about her personality. Hell, I like her as a character, which is why her outfit and the fact the camera shows her such disrespect is why I'm so insulted by it. Am I clear yet? Or are you going to go on another "true personality rant" again and subtly hint that I'm to stupid for you arguements because after post and post of continued refusal to get it, I finally snapped?

I really don't know why you're being needlessly aggressive for and I never ignored people's issues with her design, I've literally said multiple times her design is sexy which anyone can see, what I take issue with is the repeated cherrypicking of Cindy in relation to other females in XV in order to act as if she's the focal character of the game, as if shes the representative of female designs in the game which is why I posted this post earlier.

Bazztek said:
If you want to see other non party member women in XV look at Luna or Camelia or Sania or Ezma or Holly or Monica, all women in leadership positions or the highest of political positions within the game.

Who are other females in the game, and Luna before anyone is the main female representative of the game. Cindy and Aranea are not the norm for XV they're the exception.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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