Cost doesn't matter and that's just politics anyway. Im sure it could be lower but if Unioned guys get paid, im all for it. The problem isnt the money its just political bickering.
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NYT: NYC Subway built the city. Now at a projected $100 billion — the city must rebuild to survive.
- Thread starter Deleted member 3812
- Start date
Cost doesn't matter and that's just politics anyway. Im sure it could be lower but if Unioned guys get paid, im all for it. The problem isnt the money its just political bickering.
Its NEVER going to get done the way it is. If it takes them a decade to replace signals on one line, an overhaul of the entire system will never happen unless some drastic changes happen.[/QUOTE]
Yea but that's not because the system is 24/7 its political bickering. THE SUBWAY BEING 24/7 IS NOT THE PROBLEM. MONEY IS NOT THE ISSUE. Even if it wasn't 24/7 right now. Nothing would get done bc politics.
Wow, I thought London pretty bad. They're always working on it somewhere though, fixing or making improvements.
I'm a New York state tax payer. I care if it's expensive. Shut it down to save money.
Those are both the issue. You denying that, doesn't it make it so. The 24/7 limits the repairs they can do. When the union has 200 extra people on a project doing nothing, that's a cost issue, and definitely a problem.
This whole conversation annoys me greatly because it's an insult to the every spirit that got the NYC Subway built and operating 24/7 in the first place. The subway has had 24/7 service since in opened in 1904. There's no one alive that remembers a New York without subway service that was all day.
Would it be more expensive? Yes. Would it be more difficult? Yes. Would it take longer to perform repairs? Yes. Then why should we let it stay open be 24 hours 7 days a week, 365? Because this is America goddammit, and this is New York City.
People in New York City want the subway open 24 hours. It's not as though the city is some crash strapped hamlet that can barely pay it's bills. It's one of the(if not the) richest cities on Earth, in the richest country on Earth. Yes, it's a "luxury" to have that kind of service, but rich cities and countries have luxurious shit.
We need to be figuring out how to add handicapped elevator service to the subways instead of trying to cut back service.
Would it be more expensive? Yes. Would it be more difficult? Yes. Would it take longer to perform repairs? Yes. Then why should we let it stay open be 24 hours 7 days a week, 365? Because this is America goddammit, and this is New York City.
People in New York City want the subway open 24 hours. It's not as though the city is some crash strapped hamlet that can barely pay it's bills. It's one of the(if not the) richest cities on Earth, in the richest country on Earth. Yes, it's a "luxury" to have that kind of service, but rich cities and countries have luxurious shit.
We need to be figuring out how to add handicapped elevator service to the subways instead of trying to cut back service.
And our taxes help suppliment upstate spending and MTA money that should go to the subway routinely goes to upstate projects instead. The latter is a huge part of why we're in this mess in the first place.
24/7 subway service doesnt leave time for repairs and maintenence. 24/7 subway IS a problem.
It costs several times more to build things in NYC than it does anywhere else. Money IS a problem.
I'll give you the political bickering. Cuomo and de Blasio are both twats about the MTA. But to sit there and act like thats the only problem is ridiculous.
The issue goes all the way back to the 90's. The NYTimes had an article about it a month ago or so. Governors have been raiding the MTA for upstate projects, the city hasn't been paying what it's supposed to, and that's along with a mess of other issues. Had things been run properly for the last 30 years we wouldn't be having this issue or even talking about ending 24/7 service and inconveniencing tons of people who work the night shift or a second job.
Voters want 24/7 service, and politicians have to execute it. If they/you don't like it you can either start campaigning to end 24/7 service (good luck with that), or start working on an actual way to fix the problem that is conducive to voters' desires.
Voters don't give a shit how much it costs to fix the subway. They do give a shit about 24/7 service. Like I said when I came in this thread, you could just use the strategy many southern cities do and levy a penny sales tax. If you do that for all of NYC your problem is solved right there. Most voters don't even notice penny taxes and they get shit done quickly.
I'm sure those people would be thrilled to see that their hard work has deteriorated so much.
So lets just waste a ton of unnecessary time and money because we dont want to be inconvenienced. Sounds like America alright.
Im sure people in New York City would rather have a functioning subway system than a 24/7 one. I know I would.
I agree that there needs to be more accessibility but when are you going to have time to rebuild these stations to include access without shutting it down? Slapping an elevator in isnt a 2 hour job.
I work for MTA as a track worker. People don't seem to understand we run 365 24/7! And because of thst it's hard to upgrade crucial parts. And the volume of ppl we transport daily... shit is bound to happen, be it a sick passenger or a 12-9 (people hit by trains) it all delays everything. One line gets congested others will too. It's a hard job and people don't see that. The public see mta employees horrible but we do our best at fixing this century old system. And we will eventually succeed. It's just not easy to fulfill and repair at the same time. There's 9 million New Yorkers for godsake
What the hell is wrong with you? Cost DO matter, not just politically but on the ticket price for passengers. Yes that can be subsidized via government, but government needs to pay for other things too and managing costs is what helps them do that. Paying 50 billion in overrun costs, that could of went somewhere else, like towards helping another city get their transit in order too. It is a drain of resources knowing what could of been done. You don't go to the store and buy $1,000 hammers because cost doesn't matter. even a rich person wouldn't do that (hopefully).
You know how conservatives tend to be extreme on fiscal and social policies? Well you are being extreme in the other direction. You think this stuff can be fixed without the necessary policies to aide it. There are plenty of people and professionals (I say this again until you understand how backwards your reasoning is), telling you that 24/7 does nothing but delay critical maintenance and upgrades by decades, all for 1% of ridership, when other things can be done to help those night commuters. so we can help majority of people who commute during the day.
You are literally arguing in favor of 1% inconveniencing the 99% and the system they all rely on.
But new yorkers havent been paying attention to local politics when they should have been throwing molotovs at the mayors building for the heist they committed to the MTA.
I think people saying that the service cannot be suspended for a few hours every day or every other day for maintenance and upgrading are being extremely unreasonable. We realize - including myself as a native and life-long New Yorker- how important 24/7 service is, but it is completely unacceptable at this point and time to move forward expecting to see any significant and necessary changes to the system while still maintaining an uninterrupted service schedule (which is ironic because as a 24/7 system, it interrupts itself plenty of times).
The majority of people stand to gain from having the subways temporarily shut down for a few hours on certain days so that we can rebuild this god forsaken system. It's old and decrepit and the people suffering the most are the people who need it the most - every day riders during rush hour, not the midnight shift. People will be adversely affected one way or another, but don't try to say that the amount of people negatively affected by service shutting down during the third shift is anywhere close to the people relying on the trains during the day. It's not comparable.
The majority of people stand to gain from having the subways temporarily shut down for a few hours on certain days so that we can rebuild this god forsaken system. It's old and decrepit and the people suffering the most are the people who need it the most - every day riders during rush hour, not the midnight shift. People will be adversely affected one way or another, but don't try to say that the amount of people negatively affected by service shutting down during the third shift is anywhere close to the people relying on the trains during the day. It's not comparable.
Maybe NYC voters do, not upstate. I'd rather shut it down for part of the night to save money and make repairs easier. And yes, upstate voters do give a shit how much it costs. And I can assure you, upstate voters care about ending the 24/7 service if it saves money. At least everyone I've talked to about it.
We are edging closer to this reality. It's gotten so much worse over the 4 years I've been living here.
Is the person above me really suggesting ending 24/7 service? Literally everyone I know uses the subway at all hours of the night. Would be a huge loss.
You'll care when you realize it winds up hurting the state's economy since the city is it's main economic driver and helps fund upstate stuff. Again, money being taken from the MTA for upstate projects is part of why this mess exists.
Our new trains in Montreal are awesome.
So spacious, well-lit and quiet compared to the ones I rode for the past fifteen years or so. Actually makes a difference on my quality of life.
Still ride the old ones at least as much as the new ones but hopefully the full upgrade won't see any more delays...
I wanna know WTF they were thinking when they designed that crazy escalator on the 72nd street Q line station. It's the highest escalator I've ever seen and it's vertical. Going down it is like talking a fucking nose dive. The last time I was at that station I was walking down the escalator and all of a sudden I was getting lightheaded and disoriented. It was scary as shit just trying to move to the right lane. Why no stairs? Wtf?
If we are thinking about the same article, they said part of the reason was the politics between city and state, it isn't the only reason. Stop selective reading.
They actually do... When you have to start asking for federal and state money (regardless of how much money given to those governments), that is when you are using money from people who aren't even using the service. Costs DO matter.
How do you not understand, that is it exceptionally, costly and longer to fix issues like this when you have the service continually running? Its best to give the workers 5 hours everyday except maybe weekends so they can dedicate that time to fixing it and use the labor that is sitting idly by while still getting paid.
Can you stop with this? The south have nowhere near the mass transit levels of the north (exception of maybe DC area), hell the bus service in the south is abysmal, that is why over 80% commute by car and 76% of them literally drive to work solo. Money is only part of the issue and NYC already have high taxes. Also NYCs costs is dramatically higher than the south's infrastructure projects. They are no where near comparable since its close to nonexistent.
I am on the opposite side. Money available should be sent on the citizens. Frivolously. 100% are already inconvenienced, doing it this way fixes the issues, albiet slowly. But this way everyone wins (eventually)
Seriously. Without NYC you guys would be no different than those poor southern states. You guys even vote Republican time and time again. As if we should care how you feel.
I never said it was the only reason, I said it was part of the reason along with a mess of other issues. It's complicated and I can't remember them all off the top of my head, so I yada yada-ed them.
They will use DC metro as a model of how much work can get done during limited service/reduced hours. Yes once complete hours may be extended again but you can bet the NYC subway is going to have reduced hours for maintenance. There is no way the amount of work that needs done can happen with stations open and running lines.
Your not the only late night city in the world or even within the US. Plenty of workers in DC working well past the metro cut off points on weekends. Most clubs and bars are open for several hours past the cut off point and people still get around and make it where they need to be. And this includes utilizing late night bus services.
You are not going to have a functioning system if you don't do maintenance ASAP.
Your not the only late night city in the world or even within the US. Plenty of workers in DC working well past the metro cut off points on weekends. Most clubs and bars are open for several hours past the cut off point and people still get around and make it where they need to be. And this includes utilizing late night bus services.
You are not going to have a functioning system if you don't do maintenance ASAP.
I frankly wouldn't begrudge the Tube for the constant fixing/maintenance. All my experience with it suggests that there is a method to the madness. Any service disruption due to maintenance are usually scheduled in advance and easy to check. In fact, I'm very impressed that a sprawling subway system built over a hundred years ago functions as well as the Tube does!
I only have two gripes with the London Underground - peak fares, and their frequent propensity for strikes. The boxing day strike in 2010 was a total shitshow.
A penny sales tax wouldn't be enough. Los Angeles County (the county, not the city, with a larger population than NYC) has a penny sales tax and it raises only $1.8 billion per year. That would only pay for half a mile of track on the East Side Access.
Do you have any statistics that says voters want 24/7 service, especially if they were told giving it up could help improve service?
I really do not understand you, there is no point discussing this with you as you have no actual reasoning regarding this issue. I linked a report below that I read and suggest you and anyone who cares about NYC's metro do the same.
Just because he is in NYS does not mean he in particular votes Republican. Also there are other cities in NY as well, not just NYC.
It comes off as biased and purposely misleading when all you want to point at is the political issue regarding the decline of the NYC metro system, when there are numerous reasons.
If you are actually serious in learning ways to fix NYC's subway system, then I suggest you read the RPA's Fourth Regional Plan. I am linking the summary, you can download the full plan to read if you want. Should be noted that this organization is made up of city planners and engineers.
http://fourthplan.org/about/executive-summary
I've already read it and like I said, I couldn't remember it all off the top of my head so I yada yada-ed it.
I keep pointing to the political situation here in large part because people from upstate are constantly trying to push their ideas on to what should happen when they won't be the most affected by any changes in service.
I keep pointing to the political situation here in large part because people from upstate are constantly trying to push their ideas on to what should happen when they won't be the most affected by any changes in service.
I don't think any report says that discussions about ending 24/7 service wouldn't happen if funds weren't raided from the MTA in the past.
The larger point I remember from the Times article is the current situation is a result of an accumulation of different shit over time, that being one of them, and that's why it's this bad right now. Basically if all that stuff never happened we don't find ourselves here talking about that.
Edit: my point is dudes from upstate shouldn't be talking like they got no blame here. Whole damn state has to take some blame. City and State and MTA and everybody has some blame.
And many of us are trying to point out that it isn't just the political situation. Even if it was, it doesn't matter now as the goal should be trying to fix it and the RPA plan goes into significant detail and is a study that took half a decade to conclude. They aren't saying end 24/7 service just to screw with night life of the city, their goal is to aide the city.
Honestly, if a city as large and important as New York can't find a way to come up with $100 billion than there is something wrong with their government.
I don't think there is an article that says that. There are lots of articles that say it is a lot worse because of what has happened, but the RPA report clearly states that ending the late night service is just a best practice:
http://library.rpa.org/pdf/RPA-The-Fourth-Regional-Plan.pdf
I'm not saying it's just the political situation. I keep saying that it's a confluence of many issues. I only use that point to point out that it's not just the city or MTA that fucked up and everybody has some blame in the situation we find ourselves in.
And I'm not talking about the nightlife. I never mentioned nightlife. I mentioned dudes working the night shift and second jobs.
I'd really appreciate it if you actually read all my posts and didn't strawman me.
Sure. The Subway OPENED with 24/7 service. I'm sure they would be quite annoyed with that ending as well.
Yup. Because we have the time and money to not be inconvenienced. That's what a luxury is.
The two are not mutually exclusive. One is just more expensive.
Close the stations that are being worked on.
Frankly, upstate voters shouldn't pay for anything. NYC should pay for its subway in total because it's operation doesn't concern you. You should have no say in the matter. That's why I proposed the penny sales tax. Souther cities use these to keep the conservative states out of their goddamn business (to the extent they can, they still fuck when them in the usual ways). The only reason Atlanta has MARTA for example is because the taxpayers in Atlanta (and the counties it serves) fund the entire thing. Now MARTA isn't NYC's subway, but NYC itself has alot more money and people within its actual jurisdiction to pay for shit than Atlanta.
I understand it is more costly- though I'm unsure of the exact context and the nature of these repairs as well. Are this "one time" repairs that are a result of the system being a century old that we won't have to worry about for another 50-80 years, or are these repairs that need to be done every 6 months? I imagine most of the repairs you're talking about are the latter. For those 50-80 year repairs, let's shut the system down at night for however long it takes to make repairs on each line and reopen it at 24/7 service. The few remaining " regularly scheduled maintenance" repairs can be scheduled during the course of the year with intermittent shutdowns according to some regular, publicly available schedule. That's how we need to parse it. Not by ending 24/7 service.
New York City's population is 83% of LA County's, so if we assume the amount of sales in they counties is similar, an NYC penny sales tax (Are you sure it's a full penny? Sometimes they're fractional penny taxes.) would be $1.5 billion dollars a year. Right. Now there's this thing called a bond. The city would issue a 20 year bond to fund $30 billion dollars in repairs immediately. The penny sales tax would remain in place for 20 years to simultaneously pay off the bond. If that sounds like a long time, Southern cities typically have penny sales taxes in place for 10 years at a time, and then often reinstate them before they expire to fund more maintenance- so this isn't at all unprecedented.
And that's the most basic financing method. The city could also use what's called "tax increment financing" to pay for alot of the repairs if it had to and a million other means based on the fact its fucking New York City.
Nah, but I figure people would be royally pissed about it. I know I'm royally pissed NJ Transit isn't 24/7, but that's the state of our half-assed system.
I do not have a anti-public ownership agenda.
I think TfL is a far better run organization than the franchised commuter rails services for London, for example. However the MTA (and PANYNJ) should be disbanded at this point, they are institutionally corrupt patronage mills (from directors to janitors) that provide internationally terrible service at internationally terrible prices. Hell if we could franchise to TfL to run NYC Subway that would be both comical and amazing.
Pretty much all of NYS's tax revenue comes from the NYC region... So roads, Cuomo's corrupt Buffalo Billions, SUNY, everything are funded with revenue from NYC. Last I saw it was for every $2 is tax revenue collected from the state in the NYC Metro only 1$ gets spent in NYC.
I'd also like to point out that I feel infrastructure projects on a large scale never seem to get completed any more in North America. Bridges, Roads, Railway, Subway, Skyscrapers, etc. If you look at China they are basically building an entire country worth infrastructure year-in and year-out. People used to say well yeah but its just garbage Chinese engineering, but now you look at major Chinese cities and they look like they are from the future. Obviously China has worse workers rights than the West so we don't want to emulate that. People used to complain about their environmental quality as well, but lately they have even jumped to the forefront of green technology. I just feel like at some point we have to completely reevaluate how we approach these things, because the current path clearly isn't working.
Exactly. This is pretty much it. Fuck inconveniencing travelers, the government can come up with the money, they just need to stop bickering. One of the things I learned from my studies in Political Science is this: In America, there's always money. There's never "not enough money." It's just a matter of who has the money and building up the political will to get them to pay their fair share of taxes.
They did get completed before the 70's. We've just been stuck with incompetent politicians since then.