But if we spend 5x as much money to get the same amount of work down than any other similar country, are cost reductions not viable path?
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NYT: NYC Subway built the city. Now at a projected $100 billion — the city must rebuild to survive.
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I hear those that don't want to inconvenience those that utilize overnight service.
If anything, everything about riding on a frequent service surface transit line should be more comfortable and far more reliable than the current overnight train service. They even make buses that look like trains now, if that's where the concern stems.
The facts of who rides the train overnight are important because it gives us an idea of how many people need to be supported if transit overnight shut down.
We know that we have to transport around 600,000 riders (1% of 6 million) that would be displaced. Surface level mass transit is probably the best (cleanest, most cost-effective, revenue neutral) way to transport them even with the subway.
If anything, everything about riding on a frequent service surface transit line should be more comfortable and far more reliable than the current overnight train service. They even make buses that look like trains now, if that's where the concern stems.
The facts of who rides the train overnight are important because it gives us an idea of how many people need to be supported if transit overnight shut down.
We know that we have to transport around 600,000 riders (1% of 6 million) that would be displaced. Surface level mass transit is probably the best (cleanest, most cost-effective, revenue neutral) way to transport them even with the subway.
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Sure. But not all of that is due to 24/7 subway operation. A big part of it is badly run construction policies and such that are a symptom of American governance as a whole, not just NYC. We need a fundamental rethinking of how we actually build stuff in this country.
If they can manage to get Bus Rapid Transit up and running NYC, I'll reconsider my opinion. Until then, subways need to be open 24/7.
Travel time is an actual factor here. A bus from Manhattan into Queens will take longer than the subway would. It's not an issue for shorter trips, but it is once you start talking about traveling between boroughs due to the distances involved.
2008 and 2016 had half-penny tax increases, adding up to a penny. They actually have 2 pennies in total for transportation going back to increases in the 80s and 90s. There is more sales-taxable items in LA County though--there is no sales tax exemption on clothing, for instance.
Its not as easy as you think to get a $30 billion bond, and it sometimes is not in your financial interest because you need to pay an attractive interest rate on the bond or nobody will buy it. Los Angeles has only been able to get $3.7 billion of bonds for 1.5 cent sales tax:
https://www.metro.net/about/financebudget/debt-program/
I don't think tax increment financing will work for repair work--it needs to be a shiny new capital project. Can you show me an example where TIF was used to fund maintenance?
That is not necessarily true for Night Service:
-Virtually no traffic at night.
-All subways lines are run in parallel to existing roads.
-Subway maintenance is performed at night, significantly slowing transit speeds.
-Train spacing is significantly increased at night (20 minute gaps in scheduling) so transit times are increased significantly.
Best course of action would be subsidized cab fares, but the ATU and TWU would be screaming murder scabs. Even though this would provide the best possible service at those hours, labor is more important than citizens.
Second best course of action is a increased frequency of buses (every 5 minutes) stopping at the subway stops.
Pretty sure the goal would be to get that up and running before shutting down 24/7 service.
Right, because surface transportation is totally reliable in conditions like this:
Do you have a picture of the actual roads in NYC looking like this and causing surface transportation to shut down instead of a backyard?
I understand, but it wouldn't have to be with proper routing and bus stop distance. Weather aside, I'm not seeing why that couldn't be an hour long trip on the bus as well.
There's not a bus that goes from Lower Manhattan into Queens. However the Q66, even though it stops every two feet, can get from one side of the borough to the other in an hour if there are no delays.
Again, the actual average miles per hour with Bus Rapid Transit (17-30 mph) and a train (13-30 mph) are around the same. Overnight in NYC is actually the best time to utilize the advantages of BRT.
Oops, thank you.
In that case, finding an alternative method of transit for 60,000 nightly should be the easiest thing in the world to do.
Subsidizing cab fare would probably be cheaper than setting up new bus lines as PanickyFool mentions.
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Well skyscrapers are being completed and a lot of other projects you mentioned do as well, just a little slower than china. I think that's actually a complaint Trump has and he's removed restrictions and requirements for the better or worse (less research for quicker starts but less knowledge on impact and safety). He did some absurd press conference with piles of paperwork stacked around like 7 feet high saying that was the amount of regulation around researching an interstate expansion in Maryland outside of DC/Baltimore. Then he said he removed all of these requirements with some bill he signed. Even to redo the Chesapeake Bay bridge they are going to do soon has something like a 7 year research study on the placement of it.
Also there is different rules and laws here in the US with when it involves land ownership. It can get messy when going into private property and how the state or federal government buy it.
Hmm, you may be right about that, I was thinking about it more in terms of a road improvement project where you would repair the sidewalks and road surface and use the increased property values in the area to fund the project. The subway operates underground so any benefits from improvements would only happen near the stations. You could probably use it for improving the stations, but that would only supplement a larger financing strategy.
Shut down? No, but the bus system is pretty spotty already even in good weather, and in blizzard conditions it would be even worse.
So we are going to ignore international best practice for 1% of the riders in a scenario that occurs 1% of the time?
The MBTA has already that figured out. https://www.mbta.com/winter
You would create alternate routing, bypass difficult to reach stops, and activate alternative modes of transportation. So in times of severe inclement weather, the trains could be reactivated on lines where it is needed.
Fewer stops also mean greater reliability and frequency of service to each stop. The MTA has already demonstrated the viability and function of a rapid transit bus system in the city with the Select Bus Service. http://web.mta.info/mta/planning/sbs/faqs.htm
None of this is fairy tale stuff that hasn't been tested at scale. Most of this is plug and play with existing infrastructure. And, again, this would only apply to overnight routing.
EDF run practically every nuclear power station in the UK, which is pretty much the same concept, and just as comical. :)
It's good to people analyzing the situation objectively. There isn't a single cause of this massive decay and the solutions are going to have to be multi-fold as well.
I was on a trip to London recently and it was my first time regularly using a public subway/train system to get around. I've always driven before that. How does London's system compare to NYC? I thought London's was pretty good.
London has 2 kinds of subway - the deep tube and the "sub-surface" lines. The deep lines are quite particular to London; narrow tunnels because the technology was new, so the trains and platforms are too small. 5 out of the 7 deep lines run 24h on Friday/Saturday night. Otherwise it's closed between about 1am and 5am for maintenance. Over the last 20 years, they've caught-up on a lot of deferred maintenance. It's pretty rare now for a train to break down or be delayed by faulty signals. They work about as well as they can get them without rebuilding the whole thing.
The sub-surface lines are much more similar to the NYC system. Just below street level, large trains, often only with stair access. Some stations feel very much like an NYC subway station. Mile End for example:
These lines were, until about 20 years ago, in a rather shabby state. Not as bad as NYC, but old trains, worn-out track, 100 year-old signalling in places, unreliable service. They've since replaced the entire fleet, repaired/replaced all the bad track and they're half way through modernising the signalling which will allow a ~30% increase in train frequency while also being far more reliable.
I last used the NY subway in anger about 10 years ago, and it felt like the shabbier parts of the sub-surface lines, but that was in the touristy parts of Manhattan. Definitely dirtier than London; stations and trains. I imagine the more neglected parts of the network were even worse. The major differences with the London system are continuous 24/7 operation and that many lines are quad-tracked, allowing local and express services. Only two routes in London have this kind of parallel service (District/Picadilly in West and Metropolitan/Jubilee in the North-West).
There are definite parallels between the two systems - similar age, size, usage, and historical neglect due to declining population in the 80s followed by overloading as population rebounded. It's just that London spent the last 20 years or so spending billions on bringing it up to a modern standard.
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They can turn on 24-hour service in emergencies and times where more travel is expected. Besides, the RPA proposal calls for 24-hour service to be maintained on weekends.
They do this on other systems:
http://thesource.metro.net/2017/12/...ll-night-with-free-fares-from-9-p-m-to-2-a-m/
I wonder what some of you New Yorkers think of our soon to be London Crossrail service. Its costing $20bn and running 74 miles from way out east to way out West of London with the central section running under Central London.The East part is already open with the west and central section set to open this year. If you look at the regular subway system like underground roads, Crossrail would be like a freeway with is much higher capacity and faster service. It links into the regular subway/underground system.
I suppose you could imagine it being like an east-west super-subway that runs from Newark through New Jersey through Manhattan through Brooklyn and on to Queens. In London its kind of an admission that the existing subway is so old and dated that there is only so much capacity and performance you can get out of it before it makes sense to build an entirely new system using all the modern technology available. The value London puts on its underground railways system is about the same as New York. If New York built a system similar to that then I think it would revolutionize commuting in the city. You could live much further out and have a much shorter and comfortable commute in. This clip gives a short summary of the syetem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S36fHqXWKdw
The ironic thing is that it was an American who invented the London Tube system and its Americans who are building the new Crossrail system.
I suppose you could imagine it being like an east-west super-subway that runs from Newark through New Jersey through Manhattan through Brooklyn and on to Queens. In London its kind of an admission that the existing subway is so old and dated that there is only so much capacity and performance you can get out of it before it makes sense to build an entirely new system using all the modern technology available. The value London puts on its underground railways system is about the same as New York. If New York built a system similar to that then I think it would revolutionize commuting in the city. You could live much further out and have a much shorter and comfortable commute in. This clip gives a short summary of the syetem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S36fHqXWKdw
The ironic thing is that it was an American who invented the London Tube system and its Americans who are building the new Crossrail system.
An east-west railway already exists through Manhattan. Penn Station has east and west facing rails, so the New Jersey Tranist lines could link up with the Long Island Railroad. It's all complicated by the jumbled-up ownership of track, and the congested nature of the Hudson River tunnels (2 tracks) vs. the East River tunnels (4 tracks). Because Amtrak. NJT and LIRR own their own track, serious through-service faces a wall of beauracratic and institutional inertia.
Because all mainline track in the UK is owned by Network Rail, while the routes themselves are franchised out, it was much simpler to join up heavy rail lines via a tunnel. While the tunnel is being dug, the services on the end routes are being transferred to the new franchise, and the new trains are being rotated into service. When the tunnel opens, it'll be a simple matter of switching the old routes into the tunnel.
This looks like something out of S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
Wow...... I literally cannot believe this. On the other side of the Pond, London is getting this later on in the year
Just take a look at this
Its just a render but its close to what we'll actually get. Not the whole system is this prestine but nothing is as horrific as the first picture.
If New York could have what we're getting by closing stations at night for maintenance, raising ticket prices and adding $20-30bn into their system to have what London is getting I can't imagine they would not. Maybe after Crossrail opens and the world's media show NY what they could have maybe they'll reconsider their current positions.
This is a good read if you want to know more about Crossrail
https://londonist.com/london/transport/everything-you-need-to-know-about-crossrail
Part of the problem is that people are conflating money and time. The reason not shutting down the trains overnight and leaving them running 24/7 is dangerous isn't because it costs more, it is that it costs more because it will take a lot longer (calendar time wise) to do, and you run into the issue where the upgrades don't get done fast enough to stave off a cataclysmic event. What could be done in one 5 hour block of uninterrupted testing on a given weekday may take 3-4 weeks of small 60 minute blocks (since you are redoing setup time and breakdown time each time) every couple of days. That's where the danger lies, that by not shutting it down for concentrated chunks at a time, you are not able to get upgrades and repairs done in time. Money doesn't fix the time problem.
It's almost unreal how the US can succeed at so many complicated tasks but completely fail at sheer basics - usually when it comes to providing public services or utilities.
and than there's the thing with the unions.. just like with everything else, they are either useless or draconian - no middle ground. Almost like the US is a binary society, you either get everything or nothing (this is pretty much applicable to everything, from politics to religon)
and than there's the thing with the unions.. just like with everything else, they are either useless or draconian - no middle ground. Almost like the US is a binary society, you either get everything or nothing (this is pretty much applicable to everything, from politics to religon)
Only 1.5% of the total daily ridership, which is why the RPA recommends closing the subway weeknights around that time and subsidizing alternative forms of transport during that time like buses. Despite the emotional arguments made by some, this is a change that's gonna have to happen eventually. What good is it going to do to spend 100 billion dollars to update the subway only for it to degrade to a similar state a few decades later due to the lack of daily maintenance?
$100 Billion?!?
Yikes, good luck.
But how can repairs, etc. get done when the NYC Subway is operating 24/7? That seems impossible.
Yikes, good luck.
But how can repairs, etc. get done when the NYC Subway is operating 24/7? That seems impossible.
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Seems like a no brainer decision to suspend 24/7. Yeah it will fuck the 1.5% over a tiny bit, but they still get alternative transportation. Seems like a much better solution then doing nothing for a few more years, then have several lines break down entirely due some catastrophic event or because of lack of crucial maintenance. When that happens with zero backup plan things will be quite dire
Cross rail was literally built at 1/4 the prices that NYC can build at. And it was a far more complex construction job than anything NYC has ever built.
But NYC is such a provincial shithole filled with jackasses thinking we are "unique" and can't be compared to anything else.
Well that's the thing, there doesn't seem to be an argument for keeping 24/7 besides emotional pleas of "it makes NYC unique!" Art, entertainment, culture, food...there are so many things that can make a city unique that bragging about a run down subway that runs a few extra hours daily hardly seems impressive, especially when you see how looks in pictures. Alternative transport for those it would affected would be arranged and subsidized. Routine maintenance prevents small problems turning into larger, more serious ones - that seems like such common sense.
The major argument isn't about the passion of ensuring that the city that never sleeps continues to not sleep. It's about how this would affect the people who need the subway at night. Where as the phrase "the 1%" famously describes the elite and the rich, the 1.5% (85,000 people) this change would burden are on the opposite end of the spectrum. They are the service workers with little to no voice; the people who hold two jobs and struggle to get by. That's what elevates this into a complicated situation as opposed to a no-brainer.
New Yorkers also don't brag about the MTA. We only brag about the shrimp in our water that makes our pizza the best.
Real talk, top complaint new yorkers have, MTA is shit. We don't brag about how awesome or cool it is. Maybe transplants who just moved to the city, but give em a couple of years, and they'll fall in line.
The people that need the subway at night haven't been forgotten, the RPA plan clearly mentions subsidizing other forms of transportation so they can get around as well. New buses, shuttles, taxis...I'm sure there are a lot of options available. At those very late hours I don't see how those options would be substantially longer than the subway. This isn't an ideal solution, but closing it during other hours isn't feasible and continuing to run 24/7 means the system is going to continue to deteriorate. Something has to be done.
Let's say that the last train arrives at the yard before 2 AM (so the last train of the night is around 1 AM). They have to start running the trains again around 5 AM, so there's really no point in shutting the system down for so brief a period. Cost savings will be negligible too: buses are expensive (1 driver/bus) and maintenance-heavy, and the train operator union will raise some hay about lost jobs or something.
The service frequency 2-5 AM is every 20 minutes. Trash pickup trains and whatnot run around at those odd hours regardless of whether passenger service is running.
Oh, and the pictures in the article were picked for maximum effect. The subway still moves millions of people every day.
The service frequency 2-5 AM is every 20 minutes. Trash pickup trains and whatnot run around at those odd hours regardless of whether passenger service is running.
Oh, and the pictures in the article were picked for maximum effect. The subway still moves millions of people every day.
You are missing a few things though.
-The average track worker on a revenue section of track only gets about 10 minutes of work done per hour. Any train running, express our local requires the gang to cease work. There is a lot of potential for increase worker productivity here.
-When a gang is on the tracks, express and local trains must show down to 15mph (I think). Makes night service suck.
-Functionally NYC only has 4 lines (7, L, A Division, B division) because of all the interlocking. A slow down in Manhattan on A or B division lines will have a massive slow down effect across the whole system. Makes night service suck.
Thailand's subway system is probably the Most simple subway system on earth and nowhere NEAR the complexity/has amount of stations/access points as NYCs.
its literally just 2 lines and and 2 seperate systems (both with just 2 lines)
you're either going one way, or the other. That's IT.
and it's either on the MRT or the Sky train....
but it's literally going in one direction or the other. if you want to go somewhere outside of those areas, you got a LONG walk or you're taking a cab.
They hit the main points sure, but its not even comparable to NYCs subway system.
Oh, and Skytrain closes at like 10-12 (cant remember) and the MRT shuts down at like 12 too. (or 2am, cant remember).
I don't know why you people keep arguing about the 24/7 services. MTA is already planning to shut down L train for maintenance and say fuck you to the L riders.
Most of the subway lines have alternate lines you can take if they are shut down at night for upgrade. As long as they keep unique lines like 7 and R/D and a few Bronx lines running 24/7, they can shut down the other lines if they want to.
Also, this has nothing to do with union. Con Edison employees are mostly union and guess where its rated by the customer rankings? Almost always at the top. It's funny Americas has an hobby of jumping on the union at the drop of a dime when the country as a whole as given up on basic infrastructure and investment to the future for decades.
Most of the subway lines have alternate lines you can take if they are shut down at night for upgrade. As long as they keep unique lines like 7 and R/D and a few Bronx lines running 24/7, they can shut down the other lines if they want to.
Also, this has nothing to do with union. Con Edison employees are mostly union and guess where its rated by the customer rankings? Almost always at the top. It's funny Americas has an hobby of jumping on the union at the drop of a dime when the country as a whole as given up on basic infrastructure and investment to the future for decades.
how would we get a guarantee of subsidized overnight bus/cab service? don't trust NY politicians to do it properly.
Well, the RPA plan discusses closing the subway from 12:30 am to 5:00 am, so there would be 4.5 hours of time for improvements 5 days a week. That is about, give or take, the schedule for many other subway systems in other cities. I'm sure they picked the worst pictures but it seems undeniable that for the amount of money being pumped into the system the output is only a fraction of what it should be for a variety of reasons.
Well yeah, maintenance has to be done at some point and if the trains are running 24/7 there isn't enough time for that to do done on a consistent basis. Hence people recommending reducing the hours during the late night so line closures don't have to happen in the future. You can be pro union but acknowledge there has been serious mismanagement happening.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html
An article published last week describing hundreds of people getting paid to do nothing, among many other things. How is that acceptable?
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So what the fuck are they supposed to do? Let the tunnel collapse?
None of these are very compelling arguments against shutting down 24/7 subway service on some or all lines.
3 hours is, without question, greater than the zero hours that are currently allotted to the MTA to provide routine maintenance on the entire subway system. As mentioned above, it would provide a level of productivity that would otherwise not be possible.
Cost savings are not negligible. According to the RTCSNV, it costs $96/hour to operate and maintain a high capacity, rapid transit bus and $226/hour to operate and maintain a light rail train. (Maryland Pkwy Fact Sheet (PDF Warning))
These savings can be balanced or negated when discussing the actual quality of the transit option and the amount of people that need to be transported, but BRT certainly seems to be perfectly viable when discussing an overnight high capacity transit option for 86,000 riders a night.
And, according to a report by Splinter News, Train Operators are as sick and tired of their conditions as the passengers are.
https://splinternews.com/yes-subway-train-operators-know-just-how-bad-things-ar-1795955047
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Stating again, the MTA has previously demonstrated the ability to successfully provide a rapid transit bus system with the Select Bus Service that currently connects train lines across the city. In fact, it is one of the only successes New York City bus system has had in the last decade.
From a report titled Turnaround: Fixing New York City's Buses published by TransitCenter.
This is not a pie-in-the-sky solution. This is not a solution that has never been tested before. This is a solution backed by historical data, research, and actual use.