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Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,583
Never got why some say Aloy's design is "unattractive", like:

Because when the norm is a perfect 10 in the sexiest number you can think of, exploitative or not, realistically attractive is still so far under the bar that most people don't want to deal with it.

Aloy is not ugly by any means, her child form is a little strange looking, but hey, kids are strangelooking sometimes. But even that stylized concept art has her being unnaturally gorgeous. I also like it "better" but it's hard not to, it is another example of the idolized female form.

Aloy was sexier than 99% of the embarrassing, pandering designs you usually see specifically because she seemed like a real person.
Eh. I'd say she was more fun and interesting to be around because she seemed like a normal person. I just wasn't sexually attracted to her at all.

I think that's probably a much more interesting standard to set.

And I'm not pointing at you and saying you're guilty of this at all - but I'm noticing it over and over again in the way people think about whether or not sexualized designs are acceptable or not. I just want to re-emphasize that this hyper-focus on sexual qualities in female leads is a good indicator that the conversation is lopsidedly masculine to begin with.

I'm certainly guilty of it. But being lopsided or not, we have to have the conversation sometime. Being a guy, I know that my sexual fantasies will always be catered to in video games before my need or want for more fleshed out, 3 dimensional characters, so I'll always fight for more inclusion, more complexity and more representation when I can.

Titties aren't going anywhere.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,424
Does the game justify her seemingly perfect teeth?

c53vv0uxmaiffb1ausk8.jpg


She's one of the few characters I can think of that doesn't have perfect teeth.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,406
Not saying they ever intended it to look that way. I just wish we could get a big budget western sp game with an artstyle like this and some cool shading. Something looking more like an animated series than realistic or semi realistic.
I mean, those types of games exist. They just aren't the BIGGEST budget games. Stuff like Telltale games aren't cheap to make.
 

ThankDougie

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,630
Buffalo
I'm certainly guilty of it. But being lopsided or not, we have to have the conversation sometime. Being a guy, I know that my sexual fantasies will always be catered to in video games before my need or want for more fleshed out, 3 dimensional characters, so I'll always fight for more inclusion, more complexity and more representation when I can.

Titties aren't going anywhere.

Sure, I think talking about how it happens is worthwhile. What I mean to say is that the discussion itself has veered into personal aesthetic evaluation, which is to say it's not really looking at the bigger picture: why do such evaluations of women always get priority?; why do the aesthetic evaluations of male characters seem so different?; are we simply getting what we want when we see these sexualized designs or are we being shown how to want by designers who imagine they're somehow serving an audience? This stuff all falls to the wayside once we get into the realm of "she could have been sexier" or "I really like this kind of hair more."
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,562
I mean, those types of games exist. They just aren't the BIGGEST budget games. Stuff like Telltale games aren't cheap to make.

Not a style I really like.

Aloy's concept makes me think of a "mature" take on disney designs. Still charming but without the overly anime esque eyes. Would love the see something with that sorta slightly anime inspired but unique look.

frozen-concept-art-03.jpg
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Until the patches it was almost impossible to get an attractive character out of the creation tool, it was a legitimate complaint

I'm not referring to the crazy conspiracy stuff either

I chose a female Avatar and yeah, she looked pretty off-putting till the adjusted sliders and fixed eyes, mouth animation

Nothing shallow about wanting a character to look attractive if your gonna spend 30-40+ hours staring at them.

That's definitely shallow, but I don't see anything wrong with being shallow when it comes to games. It's shallow to avoid a game because of artstyle or character design, but if it hinders your enjoyment, what can you do? I do that all the time since I have very limited tastes in art style. Even people with more open tastes aren't going to like the aesthetic of everything.

If that logic carried over to interactions with real people, then I think it would be a problem.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
man y'all have some fucked up expectations of women if you can't see that Aloy is obviously conventionally attractive, even if she's not your "type"; I don't find her attractive, personally, but I can see that she fits pretty much every beauty standard set for women
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
That's definitely shallow, but I don't see anything wrong with being shallow when it comes to games. It's shallow to avoid a game because of artstyle or character design, but if it hinders your enjoyment, what can you do? I do that all the time since I have very limited tastes in art style. Even people with more open tastes aren't going to like the aesthetic of everything.

If that logic carried over to interactions with real people, then I think it would be a problem.

I understand , I didn't avoid the game though, just spent a lot of time making the character look nice
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
I really have to agree that people calling Aloy ugly and also that her looks would hurt the game is really concerning. What kind of people think like this? I haven't played the game but I've seen the character a lot, I really don't understand what is supposed to be so ugly with her. Doesn't look exactly like the Crones in Witcher 3 to me.

Edit: Though it's also concerning to me that some people don't want to see any people in any media that they don't find attractive. I've read some posts in the old forum for not wanting to see overweight people in TV/movies at all in example. Disgusting attitude.
 

PshycoNinja

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,224
Los Angeles
I am going to need someone to explain that to me. Do people find issue with Aloy's design? I was under the impression it was a positive design, but I will defer to others who know better than I.

Edit: How a character looks is the least of my priorities when I buy a game or watch a movie. I never understood this.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
I always found something off with Aloy's wide jaw in game. I mean, her's specifically. Like, Daisy Ridley has a wide jaw but it doesn't make her look less attractive. It's just a feature of her face.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,011
man y'all have some fucked up expectations of women if you can't see that Aloy is obviously conventionally attractive, even if she's not your "type"; I don't find her attractive, personally, but I can see that she fits pretty much every beauty standard set for women

This.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
man y'all have some fucked up expectations of women if you can't see that Aloy is obviously conventionally attractive, even if she's not your "type"; I don't find her attractive, personally, but I can see that she fits pretty much every beauty standard set for women
Yeah I'm honestly baffled. If she was wearing a bikini and combed her hair out she'd fit in with other conventionally attractive women very easily. Must be because she's not showing cleavage that people are getting hung up on it.

Also, related, you people realize that nitpicking over what parts of her are and are not good-looking is rooted in the same issue as sexually objectified characters, right?
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,399
Aloy isn't ugly but I am not a fan of the artstyle of the game. Would have much preferred it with the more stylized early concept art look
tumblr_omga8ex4c51qa9abso1_1280.png


Have not bought Horizon yet but the art style isn't the reason for it. Just other games I was more interested in. Will pick it up at some point

So, so glad they didn't go with this. It's nice art and the artist is very talented and all, but this belongs in a Disney kiddie movie, not Horizon.

Not a style I really like.

Aloy's concept makes me think of a "mature" take on disney designs. Still charming but without the overly anime esque eyes. Would love the see something with that sorta slightly anime inspired but unique look.

frozen-concept-art-03.jpg
Words cannot express how much I hate that sameface Disney princess style. I'm not sure why, but I find it really awful, almost as bad as moe anime.

I am going to need someone to explain that to me. Do people find issue with Aloy's design? I was under the impression it was a positive design, but I will defer to others who know better than I.
She isn't pretty enough apparently. She was a "weird jaw". Crooked teeth. "Creepy" face (WTF). Etc.

It's mind-blowing. I wonder how much time people spend analyzing male protagonist' jaws and bone structure to make sure they are perfectly chiselled and all.
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,466
I guess I'm put off by the fact that her good looks (not her look generally) are a subject at all. Are we really going to talk about changing parts of her body for our satisfaction as if she were a product meant to physically or sexually pleasure us? Even as a representation of a woman in a power fantasy, that's strange and so obviously objectifying. She's such a great and well-written character with private motivations and feelings (rare in even the best RPG stories, for example), why isn't that a stronger focus than her looks?

I think that we've gravitated to personal aesthetic evaluations in a thread about sexualized designs is a good indicator that we should all be a little more critical of how and why this happens in video games (as it does in popular culture generally).

And I'm not pointing at you and saying you're guilty of this at all - but I'm noticing it over and over again in the way people think about whether or not sexualized designs are acceptable or not. I just want to re-emphasize that this hyper-focus on sexual qualities in female leads is a good indicator that the conversation is lopsidedly masculine to begin with.

Yeah, I was being reactionary to annoyingly entitled statements about her being "ugly". This thread is partly about character design after all and I think she's one of the cooler looking protagonists regardless of gender.

I definitely agree that her strength of character should be what's celebrated about her. It's uplifting to see she's resonated as well as she has.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,382
I am going to need someone to explain that to me. Do people find issue with Aloy's design? I was under the impression it was a positive design, but I will defer to others who know better than I.

Edit: How a character looks is the least of my priorities when I buy a game or watch a movie. I never understood this.
Aloy is definitely attractive by typical, real world beauty standards. If she were a real person walking down the street, she would turn a few heads. However, she deviates from the hyper-infantalised standard of beauty we have become accustomed to in animation and video games. For example, large forhead, oversized eyes, small nose, delicate/tapered chin and jaw line (think Frozen). Aloy is basically the exact opposite of the female leads in Disney's Frozen.
 

Deleted member 2099

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
658
man y'all have some fucked up expectations of women if you can't see that Aloy is obviously conventionally attractive, even if she's not your "type"; I don't find her attractive, personally, but I can see that she fits pretty much every beauty standard set for women
This whole thread is disheartening on the views of women/female characters... quite saddening, really. Every time I click on this thread, I have to do a deep breath before... diving into here.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
This whole thread is disheartening on the views of women/female characters... quite saddening, really. Every time I click on this thread, I have to do a deep breath before... diving into here.

And this thread is actually really damn good for ERA (gaming side at least) standards. And ERA itself is amazing for Internet standards... sorry, that probably didn't cheer you up much, did it :(
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
It really is only a matter of time before we have a whole subculture of men who prefer the company of synthetic dolls and/or virtual reality because real women don't live up to their unrealistic beauty standards.
 

Deleted member 2099

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
658
And this thread is actually really damn good for ERA (gaming side at least) standards. And ERA itself is amazing for Internet standards... sorry, that probably didn't cheer you up much, did it :(
You tried and thank you for that.
It really is only a matter of time before we have a whole subculture of men who prefer the company of synthetic dolls and/or virtual reality because real women don't live up to their unrealistic beauty standards.
The day this happens... man, RIP humanity... whatever humanity is suppose to mean anyways. Technology has truly gone too far. I remember in my English class, my professor pointed out that back in the day, couples were much happier with each other with the lack of technology. That means that couples would kill time with each other in many enjoyable ways, now with technology in the way, people are getting drawn apart from each other. Pretty depressing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
It really is only a matter of time before we have a whole subculture of men who prefer the company of synthetic dolls and/or virtual reality because real women don't live up to their unrealistic beauty standards.

That already exists. They're called herbivore men and it's a group that will grow a lot as technology gets better. I wouldn't even call it high standards as much as different standards, as high/low implies a linear level of progression with attractiveness.
 

zMiiChy-

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,881
I think it's hilariously sad that some people feel Aloy is 'ugly'
I actually like her design quite a bit.

Unfortunately, I found her kind of boring and unremarkable as an actual character.
I liked the way she spoke and some of her snark made me laugh, but I feel only two scenes of her in the game actually resonated with me.

I thought her mother was far more interesting.

I only played the base game, maybe the DLC develops her character more.
 
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Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Well eventually robots will be sentient and sapient and it'll be okay or whatever.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
It really is only a matter of time before we have a whole subculture of men who prefer the company of synthetic dolls and/or virtual reality because real women don't live up to their unrealistic beauty standards.

I mean, 4chan weirdos already hate "3D" and only want to fuck their anime waifus (which get younger and younger with every anime season), so I'd say we're already there.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I mean, 4chan weirdos already hate "3D" and only want to fuck their anime waifus (which get younger and younger with every anime season), so I'd say we're already there.

Yeah, we passed that like years ago. Which is sad, to be honest.

You tried and thank you for that.

The day this happens... man, RIP humanity... whatever humanity is suppose to mean anyways. Technology has truly gone too far. I remember in my English class, my professor pointed out that back in the day, couples were much happier with each other with the lack of technology. That means that couples would kill time with each other in many enjoyable ways, now with technology in the way, people are getting drawn apart from each other. Pretty depressing.

Eh...I'll disagree with this. Technology is a tool. It falls on the people using it for it to be good or bad. Technology allows us to be closer than ever and there are long distance relationships that work because of technology.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Eh...I'll disagree with this. Technology is a tool. It falls on the people using it for it to be good or bad. Technology allows us to be closer than ever and there are long distance relationships that work because of technology.

Technology has also made it clear that large swathes of people are incompatible with each other even within the same region, given a platform to truly hateful shit and thus allowed it to spread, in the process of toppling a world superpower and possibly leading to the destruction of the planet, etc. The world was supposed to be connected, but it feels like we're more divided than ever before just by knowing what is out there.

The technology itself is innocent, but the people using it certainly aren't, even if they were at first. I truly believe that the reason aliens haven't visited us is because sentient life is incapable of getting too advanced without self-destructing.

Not to say I'm not part of the problem because I probably couldn't live without it either.
 

Dream_Journey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,097
I mean, 4chan weirdos already hate "3D" and only want to fuck their anime waifus (which get younger and younger with every anime season), so I'd say we're already there.

Like love means only sex... Ok, it's best part and nothing better than sex with love in this world, (for who disagree with this is a big liar or never lived that moment. No discussion allowed. :P) but still, when people in love with someone first idea is never doing sex, at least my brain is functioning like this.
 

FrankJaeger

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
549
Aloy was sexier than 99% of the embarrassing, pandering designs you usually see specifically because she seemed like a real person.
So she is a part of embarrassing pandering designs or it's just weird sentence structure?

Aloy is definitely attractive by typical, real world beauty standards. If she were a real person walking down the street, she would turn a few heads. However, she deviates from the hyper-infantalised standard of beauty we have become accustomed to in animation and video games. For example, large forhead, oversized eyes, small nose, delicate/tapered chin and jaw line (think Frozen). Aloy is basically the exact opposite of the female leads in Disney's Frozen.
"Hyper-infatilized"?
It's called stylization, but OK.

And this thread is actually really damn good for ERA (gaming side at least) standards. And ERA itself is amazing for Internet standards... sorry, that probably didn't cheer you up much, did it :(
Who cares.

The day this happens... man, RIP humanity... whatever humanity is suppose to mean anyways. Technology has truly gone too far. I remember in my English class, my professor pointed out that back in the day, couples were much happier with each other with the lack of technology. That means that couples would kill time with each other in many enjoyable ways, now with technology in the way, people are getting drawn apart from each other. Pretty depressing.
Technology just a tool.
Problem with humans.
 

PshycoNinja

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,224
Los Angeles
Like love means only sex... Ok, it's best part and nothing better than sex with love in this world, (for who disagree with this is a big liar or never lived that moment. No discussion allowed. :P) but still, when people in love with someone first idea is never doing sex, at least my brain is functioning like this.

I would think with most rational people in love their first and really only concern is the make the person they are in love with happy. At least that was always my primary concern with people I was with.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,810
So, so glad they didn't go with this. It's nice art and the artist is very talented and all, but this belongs in a Disney kiddie movie, not Horizon.
So I agree with the idea that i'm glad they didn't use it. I like the art style that horizon has , however I don't think it couldn't be used for a game like that. Restricting that to just " Disney " stuff is pretty restrictive in what you can use art to convey and you could probably get an interesting non " Disney" game out of that.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I would think with most rational people in love their first and really only concern is the make the person they are in love with happy. At least that was always my primary concern with people I was with.

That's true love, which unfortunately is diametrally opposed of what most people think "love" is.

I'm suddenly having intense flashbacks to the whole ME: A "SJW pandering" fiasco. Are people really this shallow?

The answer to that question is always "yes".

It really is only a matter of time before we have a whole subculture of men who prefer the company of synthetic dolls and/or virtual reality because real women don't live up to their unrealistic beauty standards.

I mean, 4chan weirdos already hate "3D" and only want to fuck their anime waifus (which get younger and younger with every anime season), so I'd say we're already there.

I think it's less "unrealistically high beauy standards" than "women who won't say 'no'". For a lot of these guys those are the only women that will put up with them.

Technology has also made it clear that large swathes of people are incompatible with each other even within the same region, given a platform to truly hateful shit and thus allowed it to spread, in the process of toppling a world superpower and possibly leading to the destruction of the planet, etc. The world was supposed to be connected, but it feels like we're more divided than ever before just by knowing what is out there.

As perhaps one of the few people here that lived before Internet existed... I think it has connected people in ways that weren't possible before, and things are better in thar regard now. People from different countries casually talking to each other like we're doing now, consider that was impossible for the entirety of human history until just a few decades back.

So she is a part of embarrassing pandering designs or it's just weird sentence structure?

It could use a comma but is otherwise a perfectly normal sentence structure that can only be parsed in one grammatically correct way that makes semantical sense:

Aloy was sexier (than 99% of the (embarrassing, pandering) designs you usually see) specifically because she seemed like a real person.

"Hyper-infatilized"?
It's called stylization, but OK.

"Stylization" can take a myriad forms. "Hyper-infantilization" is a much more precise description of this particular art shift.


Thanks for the helpful contribution to a conversation that didn't include you.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Like love means only sex... Ok, it's best part and nothing better than sex with love in this world, (for who disagree with this is a big liar or never lived that moment. No discussion allowed. :P) but still, when people in love with someone first idea is never doing sex, at least my brain is functioning like this.

I mean, I'm asexual. And I've checked. Sex to me is completely disinteresting to the point of it being like watching the nature channel. And you're right that this has made it rather difficult to have a relationship with anyone who also shares my orientation. But I do agree with the idea that love is far more than sex (even sex itself is far more than just inserting things into holes or rubbing things until pleasure nodes reach max capacity).
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
You should try reading it again, this time with your comprehension.

Yeah, it's kind of hilarious the dude writing in the most broken English in the page is criticising sentence structure of all things. :D

completely disinteresting to the point of it being like watching the nature channel.

As an animal rights supporter, fan of zoology and avid nature documentary consumer, that kind of hurts. :/ Animals are endlessly fascinating, people!
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Yeah, it's kind of hilarious the dude writing in the most broken English in the page is criticising sentence structure of all things. :D



As an animal rights supporter and avid nature documentary consumer, that kind of hurts. :/

Hmm, fair, I do enjoy watching Planet Earth and there are a lot of animal documentaries I actually like. I guess I was going more into having sex to me is like watching animals having sex on the nature channel. It's not really doing anything for me on a level that its "supposed" to.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Yeah, it's kind of hilarious the dude writing in the most broken English in the page is criticising sentence structure of all things. :D



As an animal rights supporter, fan of zoology and avid nature documentary consumer, that kind of hurts. :/ Animals are endlessly fascinating, people!
David Attenborough is a national treasure - though tbh he could narrate paint drying and I'd still watch it so.... I mean he got me watching plants. Plants! They aren't cute and fluffy like animals.
 
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