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SchrodingerC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
Never got why some say Aloy's design is "unattractive", like:
horizon-zero-dawn-official-story-trailer_ytd9.jpg

3e5a986afeeb5e04834fe7e6bab61ee6--horizon-zero-dawn-aloy-character-portraits.jpg

Nothing makes my eyes roll harder than reading people call Aloy unattractive, a human shrek, or goddamn fat.
Reminds me when some people call Ivy from Arkham Knight unattractive because she no longer looks like the plastic doll from the earlier games.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Also, Kamiya gets pissed when you mention there's porn of Bayonetta where she's submissive and says she should always be the one in control, especially if it's non-consensual.

That's why I see the camera as an extension of her more than anything else.
Yeah I remembered something like this but couldn't find anything where he actually has said this specifically, only that those people doing the "erotic art" of the character aren't the ones who love the game. But if he really is upset that Bayonetta is portrayed as submissive in sex, it would be really odd for him to add a rape scene himself.

It's fair criticism to say that it's badly done scene because how it can be interpreted. The intent of the scene isn't clear but misguiding instead. But I don't think it's fair to say that he created a rape scene.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,579
Whenever Bayo is brought up I still just cannot believe what Platinum were thinking with that implied rape scene during the B2(?) boss fight, I mean what the actual fuck.

sorry if this has been raised 700 times already

Like, with this particular instance, this ONE instance, I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt because it's multiple references playing on references in order to try and shoehorn another reference into a world that works on the heroes using sexualization as a weapon. That being said, I get how it makes people uneasy and it's an unfortunate moment.

IMO: Joy in Bayo 1 is a much more egregious instance of dumb chacki cheesecake that didn't need to happen.
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
Nothing makes my eyes roll harder than reading people call Aloy unattractive, a human shrek, or goddamn fat.
Reminds me when some people call Ivy from Arkham Knight unattractive because she no longer looks like the plastic doll from the earlier games.

For me it's a bit uncanny valley with Aloy. Don't know what it is, perhaps the look of her eyes, seems that she is squinting a bit. And the movement of her hair. Can't say that i find her ugly, or fat, she just looks kinda funny.
 

SchrodingerC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
For me it's a bit uncanny valley with Aloy. Don't know what it is, perhaps the look of her eyes, seems that she is squinting a bit. And the movement of her hair. Can't say that i find her ugly, or fat, she just looks kinda funny.

I do agree she has an atypical look compared to many female vg characters and that can throw people off. I will admit it even threw me off at first.
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
I do agree she has an atypical look compared to many female vg characters and that can throw people off. I will admit it even threw me off at first.


I like that the design is similiar to Ygritte from Game of Thrones, but i guess the direct comparison is my biggest problem with Aloy. That said i don't need to fall in love with her on first sight to enjoy her story.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,972
Even if it is simply implied sex, the imagery is precisely the sort of content in contention here.

If you want to imply sex, imply sex, don't have the woman looking shamed and small with the man domineering over her like a conquest. It may be a joke to Kamiya but it's really poor judgement imo.
Kamiya didnt direct bayonetta 2

Nothing makes my eyes roll harder than reading people call Aloy unattractive, a human shrek, or goddamn fat.
Reminds me when some people call Ivy from Arkham Knight unattractive because she no longer looks like the plastic doll from the earlier games.
She has a similar facial structure to Jeff Sessions.
 

Krauser Kat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,705
Bayonetta oddly reminds me of Cardi B
cardi B as an actual human has more agency in how she is portrayed in videos and in life.

The camera is forced on the "character" of bayonetta even if she plays with it on occasion it. the camera undermines so many "strong" women in games because the games let us objectify and sexualize regardless if it gels with their personality.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,972
cardi B as an actual human has more agency in how she is portrayed in videos and in life.

The camera is forced on the "character" of bayonetta even if she plays with it on occasion it. the camera undermines so many "strong" women in games because the games let us objectify and sexualize regardless if it gels with their personality.

The camera in Bayonetta doesnt play the same role as say the camera in Transformers. So she's definitely not undermined in the same manner. You dont remember Bayonetta without recognizing her as an awesome character, not just genetic bait as we do with Michaela. Who's actually the best character in the film, who literally was accused of being unable to act.

Bayonetta know's she's being filmed. She's like a broadway performer where she's being fun and sexy, almost like a Chita Rivera type character, rather than someone who has absolutely no concept of them being filmed.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,579
The camera in Bayonetta doesnt play the same role as say the camera in Transformers. So she's definitely not undermined in the same manner. You dont remember Bayonetta without recognizing her as an awesome character, not just genetic bait as we do with Michaela. Who's actually the best character in the film, who literally was accused of being unable to act.

Bayonetta know's she's being filmed. She's like a broadway performer where she's being fun and sexy, almost like a Chita Rivera type character, rather than someone who has absolutely no concept of them being filmed.
The only thing I can say against that is that Bayo never treats the camera the way she treats villains she knows will be affected by her weaponized sexuality. There's no point where Bayo lovingly embraces the camera, only to viciously attack it and leave it a broken husk, forcing the player to play through a broken, off skew lense.

The camera is still at the benefit of the player, even when it's undermining the powerful nature of the protagonist.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,972
The only thing I can say against that is that Bayo never treats the camera the way she treats villains she knows will be affected by her weaponized sexuality. There's no point where Bayo lovingly embraces the camera, only to viciously attack it and leave it a broken husk, forcing the player to play through a broken, off skew lense.

The camera is still at the benefit of the player, even when it's undermining the powerful nature of the protagonist.
I mean... why would a broadway performer attack the camera that's following her be awesome?
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,579
I mean... why would a broadway performer attack the camera that's following her be awesome?

I mean, I've seen plays where the performer will verbally or "physically" (through the use of air guns or water balloons or confetti guns) assault the audience.

In Bayo, we're supposed to be in on the joke, I guess...even though the game makes it often difficult to see where the player stands when you factor in gaze and agency.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,972
Yeah that might ruin the game for you aha,

I mean, I've seen plays where the performer will verbally or "physically" (through the use of air guns or water balloons or confetti guns) assault the audience.

In Bayo, we're supposed to be in on the joke, I guess...even though the game makes it often difficult to see where the player stands when you factor in gaze and agency.

I mean she blows kisses at the camera. She's having fun with it.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
cardi B as an actual human has more agency in how she is portrayed in videos and in life.

The camera is forced on the "character" of bayonetta even if she plays with it on occasion it. the camera undermines so many "strong" women in games because the games let us objectify and sexualize regardless if it gels with their personality.
See I get what you're saying but then I think about something like this:

Deadpool-Movie-Screenshot-Ryan-Reynolds-Butt.jpg

deadpool-poster-ass-ryan-reynolds__oPt.jpg


I completely agree the male gaze is a huge problem, and women are so far more often the targets. But some characters DO like to be ogles by the camera. It makes sense for them. Bayonetta definitely does. So while I do believe that you can still say it's a problem of the male gaze it definitely is NOT at odds with her character
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,579
Yeah that might ruin the game for you aha,



I mean she blows kisses at the camera. She's having fun with it.
Right, but it's an inconsistancy with the 4th wall.

When Angels are between her thighs, it's because she's strangling them to death.
When the player, via the camera, is between her thighs, it's supposed to be an awesome sexy moment.

It's sort of at odds with itself when you understand the fact that weaponized sexuality doesn't work on everyone (children, women), so we, the player, are supposed to be on the same level, which means we shouldn't find it sexy? And if you believe that then it goes at odds with the marketing.

It's just muddled. Though all that being said, It's a concept I'd expect to see in a lollipop chainsaw more than a bayonetta.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,972
Right, but it's an inconsistancy with the 4th wall.

When Angels are between her thighs, it's because she's strangling them to death.
When the player, via the camera, is between her thighs, it's supposed to be an awesome sexy moment.

It's sort of at odds with itself when you understand the fact that weaponized sexuality doesn't work on everyone (children, women), so we, the player, are supposed to be on the same level, which means we shouldn't find it sexy? And if you believe that then it goes at odds with the marketing.

It's just muddled. Though all that being said, It's a concept I'd expect to see in a lollipop chainsaw more than a bayonetta.

I mean, the camera's pacing changes all the time in the game to fit the changes in what Bayonetta wants to do at the moment. She's on the runway kicking ass and taking names, not a member of Pussy Riot or Femen.

Bayonetta is peak Beyonce.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I hadn't seen that particular attack myself (I don't think I ever unlocked the Rodin fight), and as a Bayonetta fan and a huge Kamiya worshipper... yeah, the implications are pretty damning :S . The most generous I can be is that Kamiya, surreal as it might sound, probably wanted to impliy consensual sex; perhaps worth noting, for those lacking context and thinking it would be odd in this situation, is that Bayo and Rodin are allies and good friends, with Rodin being the one providing her with all of her weaponry in both games; them adding "benefits" to their relationship (or simply stopping the fight to get busy) would be entirely in-character for both. The fight is a friendly spar you request, at the end of which Rodin gives you his own weapons. That said, it makes little sense in the context of an attack that lowers Bayo's health. :/

Also for clarification's sake, that video posted above is of Bayonetta 1: You can also fight Rodin in 2 (again, I never unlocked it), but the fight seems to be quite different as Rodin is in demon form (rather than angelic), so I have no clue if that move is still present.

I wasn't just talking about the internet when I said computerization. If communication were the only thing that evolved it probably wouldn't be nearly as disconcerting as it is. Drones, automatic machining, security, surveillance, etc. are all things that have massively changed as a result of computerization. The Internet of Things is more disconcerting to me than the internet (though, obviously as the name suggests, is enabled as a result of the internet). I don't really think people who haven't lived in a state where they are in fear of things like drone strikes can really understand how terrifying that level of computerization can be though.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ords-congresss-briefing-drone-strikes/354548/

"Computerization" is too all-encompassing a term to have any kind of significant discussion about it, IMHO. It doesn't make sense for me to put every computer-related technological advance in the same basked and then saying "take it or leave it". The conversation was specifically about the Internet and how it's changed the lives of people for better and worse (and you can make strong cases for either, and for both at once); adding something like "drones" is pretty much derailing it completely.
Relevant:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ic/the_virtue_of_narrowness/
We're already doing it wrong by discussing something as broad as "the internet, good or bad?". Broadening it further to be "computerization: good or bad" guarantees that nobody but 80 year olds yelling at young people on their lawns will reach any conclusion.
 
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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
"Computerization" is too all-encompassing a term to have any kind of significant discussion about it, IMHO. It doesn't make sense for me to put every computer-related technological advance in the same basked and then saying "take it or leave it". The conversation was specifically about the Internet and how it's changed the lives of people for better and worse (and you can make strong cases for either, and for both at once); adding something like "drones" is pretty much derailing it completely.
Relevant:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ic/the_virtue_of_narrowness/
We're already doing it wrong by discussing something as broad as "the internet, good or bad?". Broadening it further to be "computerization: good or bad" guarantees that nobody but 80 year olds yelling at young people on their lawns will reach any conclusion.
I don't think it's too all encompassing to have a significant discussion about. And the internet, for better or worse, can't escape a much larger discussion at this point anyway, because it is spilling into technologies (smartphones, drones and cars being among them). I grant you that it will be difficult to have a super narrow discussion about any technology that affects billions of people, much in the same way it is difficult to have a discussion about guns without also discussing the politics they create. Narrowness, while it allows you to talk about the specifics of something, does not allow you to actually come to conclusions that have broad impacts. At some point, an individual will have to either have a discussion about those broader impacts and temper their discussion with others, or they risk becoming unable to discuss or understand broad impacts, or worse, joining those whose appearance provides broad impacts without fully understanding them.

That said, this isn't really the thread for the discussion, so I'll refrain.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I hadn't seen that particular attack myself (I don't think I ever unlocked the Rodin fight), and as a Bayonetta fan and a huge Kamiya worshipper... yeah, the implications are pretty damning :S . The most generous I can be is that Kamiya, surreal as it might sound, probably wanted to impliy consensual sex; perhaps worth noting, for those lacking context and thinking it would be odd in this situation, is that Bayo and Rodin are allies and good friends, with Rodin being the one providing her with all of her weaponry in both games; them adding "benefits" to their relationship (or simply stopping the fight to get busy) would be entirely in-character for both. The fight is a friendly spar you request, at the end of which Rodin gives you his own weapons. That said, it makes little sense in the context of an attack that lowers Bayo's health. :/

Also for clarification's sake, that video posted above is of Bayonetta 1: You can also fight Rodin in 2 (again, I never unlocked it), but the fight seems to be quite different as Rodin is in demon form (rather than angelic), so I have no clue if that move is still present.

.

The move is present in both fights yeah. Kamiya said there's nothing sexual, and it makes sense, but it's true that they kind of fucked up, weird that they didn't see it coming.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
I'm actually starting to see it more now the longer I look at them side by side.

I've also seen a lot of dudes literally say they wouldn't mind being raped by a woman. Not really understanding what the word rape actually means...

I think that's just misconceptions mixed with the very high prevalence (among all genders) of rape fantasies. Men get raped by women at a much lower frequency than the other way around and so they're able to romanticize it more without actually taking into account what it implies. They basically equate "let the woman initiate it and do all the work" with "I'm getting raped".
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
I feel like alot of people are lowkey okay with that cause they believe men cant be raped or something
It's drawn porn. I agree with you but I'm not gonna burn anyone at the stake for being into drawn art of their character being sexually dominant in a non-consensual context <_<

I'm pretty sure that's not why he would be okay with it.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Nothing makes my eyes roll harder than reading people call Aloy unattractive, a human shrek, or goddamn fat.
Reminds me when some people call Ivy from Arkham Knight unattractive because she no longer looks like the plastic doll from the earlier games.

Eh

I prefer Ivy from Arkham city but I thought the knight rendition was OK

I find Aloy attractive but what's the harm in those that don't? Why does it bother you if someone says she isn't? It's an opinion yeah?
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903

Not only do I not see it, I'm point blank baffled why you are even bringing this up. What part of her face makes her look like a 70 year old dude.

EDIT: Like, even if I compare them, yeah they have a similar facial structure...as do a lot of people so unless you can justify why Alloy has to look like this facial structure attached to a 70 year old man, I'm calling this post confusing at best.
 

SchrodingerC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
Eh

I prefer Ivy from Arkham city but I thought the knight rendition was OK

I find Aloy attractive but what's the harm in those that don't? Why does it bother you if someone says she isn't? It's an opinion yeah?

Because there's no reality where Aloy would be classified as ugly, as some try to call her. There's an opinion and then there's hyperboles like saying she looks like shrek or she's fat.

My eyes ain't gonna stop rolling at the ridiculous lengths people go to dismiss Aloy because of her atypical looks.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I think that's just misconceptions mixed with the very high prevalence (among all genders) of rape fantasies. Men get raped by women at a much lower frequency than the other way around and so they're able to romanticize it more without actually taking into account what it implies. They basically equate "let the woman initiate it and do all the work" with "I'm getting raped".
Yeah that's what I meant by my second sentence. :P

Eh

I prefer Ivy from Arkham city but I thought the knight rendition was OK

I find Aloy attractive but what's the harm in those that don't? Why does it bother you if someone says she isn't? It's an opinion yeah?
Because it's not just what they're saying. It's why they're saying it.

If you don't understand the difference, this whole thread is devoted to it, so I suggest reading it from page one.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
I find Aloy attractive but what's the harm in those that don't? Why does it bother you if someone says she isn't? It's an opinion yeah?

It's not that people are just saying they personally find Aloy unattractive, it's that there are people suggesting that Aloy is unattractive in terms of overall beauty standards, which is simply untrue unless you have an extraordinarily high expectation for attractiveness.

I dunno how to phrase this best, but it just feels like here we have a game that has a female lead who's simply attractive, instead of being unrealistically attractive and suddenly a lot of people are noticeably bothered by it.
 
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psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
It's not that people are just saying they personally find Aloy unattractive, it's that there are people suggesting that Aloy is unattractive in terms of overall beauty standards, which is simply untrue unless you have an extraordinarily high expectation for attractiveness.

It's not even just that people have high expectations (although they definitely do), it's that there's some people out there whose brains have gotten so fucked up and rotten after years of video games and anime with ridiculous depictions of women that they just simply cannot find real women with real life proportions attractive, to the point where even the most impossibly beautiful actresses and models don't register as "attractive" anymore, and I find like this is becoming increasingly common. But maybe it isn't and I'm just exaggerating, idk...
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,397
I don't care if someone doesn't think Aloy is attractive.

But it just sucks to finally have a dedicated* heroic female protagonist in a AAA game that isn't sexualized or a perfect painted supermodel face, only to see so much of the conversation revolve around her beauty or lack thereof, to the point where her physical appearance (not her overall design, mind, just her attractiveness) gets scrutinized to the point where people micro-analyze the size of her chin. And to the point where you see tons of people saying they'd prefer <idealized Disney princess design> instead. I remember a while back, people even criticizing new-Lara's face and seeing some redesigns that made her even more of a perfect doll. Like... what :\

You just know that almost no one ever gives this kind of detailed scrutiny to the physical appearance of male protagonists, especially those who already check the boxes of male beauty standards. Has anyone ever said they wouldn't play Assassin's Creed because Ezio wasn't handsome enough, his eyes are too wide apart, or he wasn't muscular enough? Or "I like the game but Nathan Drake isn't that attractive or handsome, his nose looks weird" or "His eyes are a little beady and his chin sticks out a bit too much, it looks weird and not very attractive. I'll still play Uncharted, but it's kind of off-putting you know?"

You might get something about a protag looking boring or generic (e.g. "bald space marine"), but that's about global design, not nitpicking physical attractiveness. Which is something women have to endure all the time.

* as in, no character creator, not a co-protag or part of an ensemble playable cast
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It's not even just that people have high expectations (although they definitely do), it's that there's some people out there whose brains have gotten so fucked up and rotten after years of video games and anime with ridiculous depictions of women that they just simply cannot find real women with real life proportions attractive, to the point where even the most impossibly beautiful actresses and models don't register as "attractive" anymore, and I find like this is becoming increasingly common. But maybe it isn't and I'm just exaggerating, idk...

I find it's more of an ol' case of sour grapes, frankly. They feel they have zero chance of being noticed by most women, so they reframe it in their heads as "I'm not interested in them". Notice how convenient it is that they only ever express attraction to cartoonishly stylized fictional women, who have no way to reject them, and places them in the confortable, safe position of "this is the only kind of woman that I'm attracted to; shame there's nobody like this in real life".

This "rejection" -> "well I'm too good for them!" psychological twist is pretty common in many contexts, and attraction is definitely a classic one.

I don't care if someone doesn't think Aloy is attractive.

But it just sucks to finally have a dedicated* heroic female protagonist in a AAA game that isn't sexualized or a perfect painted supermodel face, only to see so much of the conversation revolve around her beauty or lack thereof, to the point where her physical appearance (not her overall design, mind, just her attractiveness) gets scrutinized to the point where people micro-analyze the size of her chin. And to the point where you see tons of people saying they'd prefer <idealized Disney princess design> instead. I remember a while back, people even criticizing new-Lara's face and seeing some redesigns that made her even more of a perfect doll. Like... what :\

You just know that almost no one ever gives this kind of detailed scrutiny to the physical appearance of male protagonists, especially those who already check the boxes of male beauty standards. Has anyone ever said they wouldn't play Assassin's Creed because Ezio wasn't handsome enough, his eyes are too wide apart, or he wasn't muscular enough? Or "I like the game but Nathan Drake isn't that attractive or handsome, his nose looks weird" or "His eyes are a little beady and his chin sticks out a bit too much, it looks weird and not very attractive. I'll still play Uncharted, but it's kind of off-putting you know?"

You might get something about a protag looking boring or generic (e.g. "bald space marine"), but that's about global design, not nitpicking physical attractiveness. Which is something women have to endure all the time.

* as in, no character creator, not a co-protag or part of an ensemble playable cast

Yeah, this too, of course: female characters are primarily judged and their entire worth based around looks. About the only time you get any conversation about a male game character being ugly is when you have utter nightmarish circus freaks like Kratos (and even then, not nearly a tenth of what female characters seem to merit). Not that it stops MRA types from crying "but games also idealize male characters!", of course.
 
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Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
It's not even just that people have high expectations (although they definitely do), it's that there's some people out there whose brains have gotten so fucked up and rotten after years of video games and anime with ridiculous depictions of women that they just simply cannot find real women with real life proportions attractive, to the point where even the most impossibly beautiful actresses and models don't register as "attractive" anymore, and I find like this is becoming increasingly common. But maybe it isn't and I'm just exaggerating, idk...

It's like a spiral, worsening with each generation as what was considered the ideal before is superceded by an even more impossible form in a bit to stand out from the crowd. A bit like how YouTubers keep trying to outdo each other with increasingly moronic behaviour, because what stood out before has now become the norm. It's the same with Twitter. Hell, just look at video games in general, pushing for better and better graphics to stand out. It's everywhere.

And, eventually, it crashes. Everything crashes. All anything can do is try their best to negate the resulting damage.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
I don't care if someone doesn't think Aloy is attractive.

But it just sucks to finally have a dedicated* heroic female protagonist in a AAA game that isn't sexualized or a perfect painted supermodel face, only to see so much of the conversation revolve around her beauty or lack thereof, to the point where her physical appearance (not her overall design, mind, just her attractiveness) gets scrutinized to the point where people micro-analyze the size of her chin. And to the point where you see tons of people saying they'd prefer <idealized Disney princess design> instead. I remember a while back, people even criticizing new-Lara's face and seeing some redesigns that made her even more of a perfect doll. Like... what :\

You just know that almost no one ever gives this kind of detailed scrutiny to the physical appearance of male protagonists, especially those who already check the boxes of male beauty standards. Has anyone ever said they wouldn't play Assassin's Creed because Ezio wasn't handsome enough, his eyes are too wide apart, or he wasn't muscular enough? Or "I like the game but Nathan Drake isn't that attractive or handsome, his nose looks weird" or "His eyes are a little beady and his chin sticks out a bit too much, it looks weird and not very attractive. I'll still play Uncharted, but it's kind of off-putting you know?"

You might get something about a protag looking boring or generic (e.g. "bald space marine"), but that's about global design, not nitpicking physical attractiveness. Which is something women have to endure all the time.

* as in, no character creator, not a co-protag or part of an ensemble playable cast
It feels, in part, like a more superficial extension of the whole "Well I don't mind * as long as it's well-executed," discussion that you often hear about minority characters, characters who are gay, and, well, female protagonists . Part of the problem is that The Female Protagonist is still so damned rare to begin with that they become a novelty worthy of compulsive scrutiny simply for existing. I don't necessarily think it's inherently born of a need for all protagonists to be pretty, even, at its core, although the comments people choose to make are often rooted in more pervasive cultural problems with these kinds of things, of course. Male protagonists don't get the same kind of scrutiny because they're the default so people just kinda gloss over their existence outside of extreme standout situations.

If we just got more variety out there to prevent every * protagonist from being some outlier that everyone feels a compulsion to put a magnifying glass to, I expect a lot of this stuff would stop. Whether they were a complete disaster zone of terrible execution or not. It's not like every male protagonist is knocked out of the park from a writing and design standpoint, so why would you expect any other demographic to be. Obviously perfect the ideal, but the ones that make some missteps still help to normalize things through sheer volume unless they're extremely egregious misfires.

No idea how you even get to that point, though. It's kinda one of those chicken and egg problems, in a sense. They fall under extreme scrutiny because they're rare, but that extreme scrutiny seems to sometimes make devs (or rather more likely, marketing departments) shy toward the "safe" choice.

It occurs to me, the fact that I even know who Aloy is and care enough that I could produce commentary on her design despite not having played Horizon--despite the fact that I'll likely never play it--when that likely wouldn't have been the case had she been yet another 18-35 year old white dude protagonist. That's not to say that serious critique and commentary, positive or negative, should ever be discouraged.

Just that I think the same lightning rod that draws me to even know who anybody's talking about when they say "Aloy" or "Nilin" or any other names of these protagonists of games I've never played and sometimes even have no interest in probably ALSO draws people whose first impulse is to low-effort comment about how her face is too wide or something. They feel a need to say something because it's a novelty and people tend to comment on novelty, even if they have nothing important to say.
 
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