Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Peanut Cheese Bar said:

Curious,
Thoughts on Sasha from Severed?

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I really like her. The stylised look (developer is DrinkBox of Guacamelee! fame, isn't it?) goes well with the bold colours without being overly complicated with detail, and the design suits her character and her background. Really tough cookie too. 'Demons took my arm, now I'm going to throw on some armour and go rip off their limbs to make kit with'. I played it through on my phone, great game too. Like a cross between fruit ninja and a dungeon crawler! Really glad you mentioned her in this thread actually.

I haven't played Horizon, but from what I've seen in screenshots, there's maybe a bit of uncanny valley going on, just a tad. I think the screenshot posted earlier in this thread showing her imperfect teeth is rather incredible though. I was quite smitten seeing that Aloy cosplayer up close at E3 last year.



Not me by the way, just the best photo I could find. I wonder if the same people calling her ugly would say the same about this cosplayer. Seems like a really close likeness to me.

Was I mistaken in thinking that threads automatically locked at 10,000 posts, or have we gone all Spinal Tap?

Dary said:

Was I mistaken in thinking that threads automatically locked at 10,000 posts, or have we gone all Spinal Tap?

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I think it's 20,000

Kinsei said:

I think it's 20,000

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Aah, 200 pages at 100ppp, not 200 pages at 50ppp. Bloody 100ppp Master Race.

Televator said:

Why is it even a problem that you can't fap to the main character anyway? I didn't have a problem not fapping to all the male leads over the decades. Aloy wasn't my type either, but calling her an ugly potato face is absurd. She's not ugly.

BTW, where are all the "Bu... but I have a friend irl who is a girl who looks like this (masive knockers) arguments now?" Where has all that serious concern for shaming a female character's physical attributes gone to?

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I don't understand the "every female character must make my dick hard" mentality. I just can't. Like, I get being happy when a character that appeals to you gets made, but being upset when there isn't a character like that in a game is just... I don't get it.

Dary said:

Was I mistaken in thinking that threads automatically locked at 10,000 posts, or have we gone all Spinal Tap?

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They changed it to 20,000. Also, yay! 10,000 posts. This thread just won't die. :P

Dary said:

Aah, 200 pages at 100ppp, not 200 pages at 50ppp. Bloody 100ppp Master Race.

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Accept us. We are legion.

Can play as a variety of male characters with a wide spectrum of appearances, but the moment a female character isn't a hypermodel? Nah, mate, potatoface.

Dary said:

Can play as a variety of male characters with a wide spectrum of appearances, but the moment a female character isn't a hypermodel? Nah, mate, potatoface.

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I mean unless you bring an on point example, some do are potato face (xeno X looking at you) my main grip is more uncanny valley tho

psychowave said:

I don't understand the "every female character must make my dick hard" mentality. I just can't. Like, I get being happy when a character that appeals to you gets made, but being upset when there isn't a character like that in a game is just... I don't get it.

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Maybe... maybe... people who can't get erect playing Horizon should go play something else? ;) Better yet, go watch porn.

psychowave said:

I don't understand the "every female character must make my dick hard" mentality. I just can't. Like, I get being happy when a character that appeals to you gets made, but being upset when there isn't a character like that in a game is just... I don't get it.

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I mean not even that, as Mortal Kombat X's outrage over slightly less revealing clothing showed

Xaszatm said:

I mean not even that, as Mortal Kombat X's outrage over slightly less revealing clothing showed

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Yeah, it seems like progress in the game industry is treated with all the subtlety of a child throwing a temper-tantrum.

psychowave said:

I don't understand the "every female character must make my dick hard" mentality. I just can't.

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Why else have female characters?

Also congrats on reaching ten thousand posts. Might as well edit |OT| into the thread title at this point.

'Potato face' has been added to the ever growing list.

Xaszatm said:

I mean not even that, as Mortal Kombat X's outrage over slightly less revealing clothing showed

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I was elated when NetherRealm actually tried to designed their female characters with better outfits and not just 2 strips of leathers being passed off as 'outfits'.

This thread next to the "sexually aroused by a game" thread is some whiplash

Like damn that tacky shit actually works?? Haha

Redcrayon said:

I really like her. The stylised look (developer is DrinkBox of Guacamelee! fame, isn't it?) goes well with the bold colours without being overly complicated with detail, and the design suits her character and her background. Really tough cookie too. 'Demons took my arm, now I'm going to throw on some armour and go rip off their limbs to make kit with'. I played it through on my phone, great game too. Like a cross between fruit ninja and a dungeon crawler! Really glad you mentioned her in this thread actually.

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I adored the fact as well that her Mother was a warrior and taught her to fight. And that her Father, though seemingly a cool enough dude, was just a lumberjack or something. He was more depicted caring for her little brother. A subtle but powerful and welcome role reversal.

SchrodingerC said:

'Potato face' has been added to the ever growing list.

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I'm glad I can contribute to this great community, in any way possible.

SchrodingerC said:

'Potato face' has been added to the ever growing list.



I was elated when NetherRealm actually tried to designed their female characters with better outfits and not just 2 strips of leathers being passed off as 'outfits'.

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I still roll my eyes Meleena's special outfit in MK9 where she literally wears two strips of bandages and their excuse was "but her face is ugly!" But yeah, despite you can clearly see the influence of the original costumes, there is at lest some design in there.

esserius said:

Thank you! Yeah, that older concept art reminds me so much of a Barbie doll/Disney princess face. It is weird. Weird weird weird.

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What! Loish is a god tier artist, and since when is being compared to Disney a bad thing? Most artist wish they were compared to Disney.



Besides that though, I dont think that Aloy concept art would fit without changing the look of the other characters.

Peanut Cheese Bar said:

I adored the fact as well that her Mother was a warrior and taught her to fight. And that her Father, though seemingly a cool enough dude, was just a lumberjack or something. He was more depicted caring for her little brother. A subtle but powerful and welcome role reversal.

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I've always liked it when a parent is shown as being cool despite not having a job based around how good they are in a fight. Reminds me of the parents in Dragon Quest VII, where they are proudly a fisherman/fishwife, and heaven help anyone that suggests that isn't good enough work! :D

HypedBeast said:

What! Loish is a god tier artist, and since when is being compared to Disney a bad thing? Most artist wish they were compared to Disney.

Besides that though, I dont think that Aloy concept art would fit without changing the loom of the other characters.

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She's definitely capable of less-stylised work (that second piece is one of her earlier self-portraits - they've gotten more realistic with age), but I imagine Horizon's art director specifically asked her for a stylised take and it was never intended for use as a modelling base.

This heavy trend towards infantilised designs and just straight wanting female characters to look like kids while their attractiveness is obviously such a key issue is creepy af.

Yeah, uncanny valley is my problem with Aloy's design more than anything else. I play games to get away from realism, not embrace it. It's why pretty much all I play is cartoony/anime-ish as hell.

Choppasmith said:

I haven't played Horizon, but from what I've seen in screenshots, there's maybe a bit of uncanny valley going on, just a tad. I think the screenshot posted earlier in this thread showing her imperfect teeth is rather incredible though. I was quite smitten seeing that Aloy cosplayer up close at E3 last year.

Not me by the way, just the best photo I could find. I wonder if the same people calling her ugly would say the same about this cosplayer. Seems like a really close likeness to me.

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That looks like a great cosplay. The costume has so much detail in it.

Having Disney-like cartoon proportions as an art style is fine, but when you translate that to a 'realistic' setting you get a truly odd 'uncanny valley' effect like the (deliberate) effect in the upcoming Battle Angel Alita film.

Either you'd have to change Horizon's art style to cartoony, or that concept art would change again in a realistic setting I think.

empty feat said:

This heavy trend towards infantilised designs and just straight wanting female characters to look like kids while their attractiveness is obviously such a key issue is creepy af.

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I always end up repeating myself when it comes to this topic, but this is an incredibly important issue that keeps getting ignored: we need to stop sexualizing young girls. We need to stop excusing pedophilia in anime and games because "oh it's just Japan being weird".

Redcrayon said:

I've always liked it when a parent is shown as being cool despite not having a job based around how good they are in a fight. Reminds me of the parents in Dragon Quest VII, where they are proudly a fisherman/fishwife, and heaven help anyone that suggests that isn't good enough work! :D

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They're all REALLY good at making sure their children are out of bed in time to become heroes.

cosmicblizzard said:

Yeah, uncanny valley is my problem with Aloy's design more than anything else. I play games to get away from realism, not embrace it. It's why pretty much all I play is cartoony/anime-ish as hell.

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Being concerned about this in any game that's not a visual novel is silly.

Oh gods the Alita thing. Yeah that IS 100% uncanny valley for me. I saw that trailer and was pretty much uncomfortable the entire time. Why did they do this, whyyyyyyy

Redcrayon said:

Having Disney-like cartoon proportions as an art style is fine, but when you translate that to a 'realistic' setting you get a truly odd 'uncanny valley' effect like the (deliberate) effect in the upcoming Battle Angel Alita film.

Either you'd have to change Horizon's art style to cartoony, or that concept art would change again in a realistic setting I think.

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Yeah thats what I said in my post

HypedBeast said:

What! Loish is a god tier artist, and since when is being compared to Disney a bad thing? Most artist wish they were compared to Disney.

Besides that though, I dont think that Aloy concept art would fit without changing the look of the other characters.

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HypedBeast said:

Yeah thats what I said in my post

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Absolutely, sorry, I was agreeing with you, badly worded on my part.

I thought I'd be safe from that Alita pic in here. I see that I was wrong.

HypedBeast said:

Yeah thats what I said in my post

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As I've gotten older, I've found the Disney aesthetic less and less palatable. It just continues deeper into that uncanny valley for me.

Morrigan said:

Oh gods the Alita thing. Yeah that IS 100% uncanny valley for me. I saw that trailer and was pretty much uncomfortable the entire time. Why did they do this, whyyyyyyy

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I found the trailer particularly galling when it's one of the few anime films I actually saw and enjoyed in my brief foray into manga video 20 years ago. My wife looked at me and said 'you gonna see this?' and I replied 'er, no' before looking for the original on Amazon!

Lotus said:

I thought I'd be safe from that Alita pic in here. I see that I was wrong.

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Us 50PPP types aren't to be trusted.

kaytee
Is discussion heading more to your liking or are we on a dark, dark road now :-)

esserius said:

Being concerned about this in any game that's not a visual novel is silly.

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What do you mean? I'm talking about art style for the most part. I've pretty much lost interest in AAA western games entirely because of it.

esserius said:

As I've gotten older, I've found the Disney aesthetic less and less palatable. It just continues deeper into that uncanny valley for me.

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You mean 2D Disney or CGI Disney? Cause even with the latter I dont see how thimgs like Tangled or evem Frozen are anywhere close to the uncanny valley.

I say I hate Uncanny Valley, but I actually like the Alita design precisely because of how jarring it is and how it doesn't mesh with the rest of the aesthetics of the film. I'm not sure why.

psychowave said:

I always end up repeating myself when it comes to this topic, but this is an incredibly important issue that keeps getting ignored: we need to stop sexualizing young girls. We need to stop excusing pedophilia in anime and games because "oh it's just Japan being weird".

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I was trying to write a reply to Cold Fire for ages but what's the point in discussing how believable a design is in a given world when people find the child more attractive? This is absolutely not ok.

Morrigan said:

Oh gods the Alita thing. Yeah that IS 100% uncanny valley for me. I saw that trailer and was pretty much uncomfortable the entire time. Why did they do this, whyyyyyyy

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Yeah i saw the trailer when i was at Star Wars, me and my friend thought wtf lol. It just does not work, big eyes can work if done properly but it's done so bad there.

Lotus said:

I thought I'd be safe from that Alita pic in here. I see that I was wrong.

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Lol was thinking the same. Those eyes seriously creep me out..

Peanut Cheese Bar said:

They're all REALLY good at making sure their children are out of bed in time to become heroes.

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Quite right. Hero is a valid career option after all, all about keeping their options open for as long as possible! :D

My daughter's been waking me up early every day for years, you better believe I'll be getting my own back and turfing her out of her bed when she's a promising young adventurer (or fisherwoman. Or lumberjack. Or whatever). :-)

cosmicblizzard said:

What do you mean? I'm talking about art style for the most part. I've pretty much lost interest in AAA western games entirely because of it.

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Because you don't spend most of your time staring at a character. So generally being concerned with what they look like in-game is unimportant in a game where you aren't spending a lot of time seeing their face, and subsequent facial expressions. I'm not saying you don't get some of that in any of these cinematic games, but it's never a huge portion of them - at least, in my experience. So not liking the art style, particularly if it's just one character, feels like a cop out. It might matter a little more in games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, but in most others it's not a big enough portion of gameplay to really affect my experience (excepting times when it's particularly egregious, like the Xenoblade 2 designs).

HypedBeast said:

You mean 2D Disney or CGI Disney? Cause even with the latter I dont see how thimgs like Tangled or evem Frozen are anywhere close to the uncanny valley.

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Uncanny valley isn't really appropriate there, poor choice of words. It's more just that the designs are too far afield. Too perfect. This is a problem in anime too, but they cheat by using framing as a way to escape the obviousness of it.

esserius said:

Because you don't spend most of your time staring at a character. So generally being concerned with what they look like in-game is unimportant in a game where you aren't spending a lot of time seeing their face, and subsequent facial expressions. I'm not saying you don't get some of that in any of these cinematic games, but it's never a huge portion of them - at least, in my experience. So not liking the art style, particularly if it's just one character, feels like a cop out. It might matter a little more in games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, but in most others it's not a big enough portion of gameplay to really affect my experience (excepting times when it's particularly egregious, like the Xenoblade 2 designs).

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I only play third person games. I don't want realism in the NPCs I interact with either or even the back (or side in the case of side-scrollers) of the player character's body.

empty feat said:

I was trying to write a reply to Cold Fire for ages but what's the point in discussing how believable a design is in a given world when people find the child more attractive? This is absolutely not ok.

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Wait a second, how is the Aloy concept art a child? That is just Loish artstyle, she usually draws with more Glen Keane/ Disney style proportions.

HypedBeast said:

Wait a second, how is the Aloy concept art a child? That is just Loish artstyle, she usually draws with more Glen Keane/ Disney style proportions.

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this is the "she's actually a 1000 year old dragon" argument all over again. no one cares if they're actually totally 100% legal. they look underaged. finding underage-looking characters sexually attractive is a huge fucking problem in "nerdy" (mostly anime/video game) circles.

cosmicblizzard said:

I only play third person games. I don't want realism in the NPCs I interact with either or even the back (or side in the case of side-scrollers) of the player character's body.

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There are many kinds of high fantasy (and other design aesthetics), and only one of them, popularized by the likes of Frazetta, have women wearing bikinis everywhere.

That said, my comment isn't about camera angles, it's about characters, and in any given 3rd person game, or first-person game, or any game, you do not spend a lot of time looking at a character's face. It is typically an extremely small part of the whole experience (again, visual novels aside).

esserius said:

Uncanny valley isn't really appropriate there, poor choice of words. It's more just that the designs are too far afield. Too perfect. This is a problem in anime too, but they cheat by using framing as a way to escape the obviousness of it.

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I can see where you are coming from, but its pretty hard to make a cartoon character look average (espically if they are in 2D where you dont use a large amount of lines), unless the artstyle is purposefully ugly (Bobs Burgers, most Seth McFarlane shows).

HypedBeast said:

Wait a second, how is the Aloy concept art a child? That is just Loish artstyle, she usually draws with more Glen Keane/ Disney style proportions.

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Call it whatever you like, you can't deny the characters depicted look young. Drawing inspiration from child-like features is one thing, but when that genre is fetishised like it has been and is preferable to realistic looking attractive women, it's problematic. No, it's dangerous.