Again, I didn't recommend it because I expected it to be everyone's cup of tea. For Yuri Kuma, are you referring to Yuri Kuma Arashi?
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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I am astounded at people who think male gaze isn't a thing cause they think the camera is an autonomous entity.
Like, do they realize the camera is controlled by a human being? That's the entire point of cinematography.
Like, do they realize the camera is controlled by a human being? That's the entire point of cinematography.
People will go to very great lengths to keep what they love out of the fire.
Maybe it's 'cause you bragged about rolling your eyes at a woman's opinion.
Think about what you're doing for half a second.
Also, show me this clip of everyone rolling their eyes.
I'd bet that people are really reading too much into the eye roll thing.
Side note: any games site staff locking themselves in a room to argue GOTY over hours is immensely dumb.
Side note: any games site staff locking themselves in a room to argue GOTY over hours is immensely dumb.
I wasn't bragging , just stating I shared the same feeling
I had way bigger issues with the goty deliberations this year and I'm not going to get hung up on her Nier opinion. I can see the issues in the game I guess I just felt strongly the game is good enough to overcome something like that and earn it's place. It appears the group as a collective agreed. I wasn't bothered by her opinion on 2b, just would have probably been more relevant in the character discussion they did, and no mention of it. Just seemed to come from nowhere
I apologize if I came across as belittling, I genuinely do enjoy Abby's video content and addition to GBEast
I was legitimately bothered by the best world category which was a disaster and puzzled by Dream Daddy cracking top 10 over several games the team seemed more into, but that discussion is not for this topic
Why? Giant bombs deliberations are legit some of my favorite content to look forward to each year
I love all the giant bomb personalities and the discussions are usually great
It's fun listening to people talk about games and they have done a good job mixing serious categories with the fun ones
Yeah sorry I was a bit frustrated about something else and took it out on you. And also accidentally FrankJaeger. Sorry everyone again.
That said, I think it's really unfair to be dismissive of that opinion. If we're so critical of gameplay things, and someone can get really hung up on, say, a bad camera - even if it doesn't bother most people! - we still tend to allow that without issue. Not always, of course, but in general people are more accepting of gameplay criticisms and tastes. Why, then, do people react so harshly to criticism of representation?
Yeah that's why I wanna see the clip. I don't listen to the main cast, but in the Beastcast, at least, Vinny and Alex generally have Abby's back on stuff like this. And even bring it up on their own. (Especially Vinny.) (Dan sucks.)
As for GOTY discussions, well, I think it can lead to some interesting talk. I think GOTY lists themselves are maybe worthless, on their own, but these specific casts... It's cool to hear someone really push for a game they loved, and digging into why they loved it. But, that's veering pretty far off-topic. :P
My basic argument is that there should be more diverse designs. Both for women and men. It goes for ethnicity, clothing, shapes and so on.
I am here, because, I am interested in this topic and want to see what people think about this (though, not any longer). My stance for diversity haven't changed, but I don't see what to discuss with clearly biased and hostile crowd, which had a very toxic reaction to simple misunderstanding and not only at mine own.
I would have gladly listen to people who respect others, but it seems here (as in on this forum, not only in this thread) people think that if they are angry about something, they can treat everyone, who even potentially can disagree with them, like shit. Good way to turn away all your potential allies.
I won't be turned away, but neither I have any desire to talk with you. Why bother discussing something with nuances, when people want to see the whole world only in black and white, do hot takes and feel good?
If my "audience" reacts according to their own ideas it might tell not as much about my failure to convey my points, which certainly had occurred in this thread, but not to the disastrous degree, but about the fact that people are biased and understands any opinion that differs from their own, whether said difference purely formulaic or conveys more nuances than people here get used to, with automatic hostility and dismissal as "defensive and defensive" opinion for something that they don't like, like it had occurred above, when I was trying to convey my ideas about characters being author's tools and someone misconstrued the whole thing as "dismissive to problems", which was enormously annoying and wrong, also, if you have read to this part you might be interested to know that I like cute kittens and when I was trying to sew mine own doll, I have ended up with some monstrocity made out of old sleepers and pin cushion.
In general I find game site top 10 GOTY lists to be a messy discussion resulting in an article that just result in every last comment complaining that their game didn't score as high as they wanted.
Like instead they could literally have a normal podcast about their standout games of the year.
So if you have no desire to talk, whether it is because of what has been posted here or because you disagree at some fundamental level, what is the point of posting here in the first place? You clearly don't want to talk (at this point anyway). Also, worth noting that a lot of what you are saying above is extremely dismissive and defensive. Calling everyone in the thread (or the forum) toxic, seeing the world in black and white, and hostile is a huge misrepresentation of what's occurring here, as well as the people in the thread. By making these generalizations you're doing exactly what you say you have disdain for. Do you not see the irony in that?
Disregarding the rest of your post, which is off topic at best, what sorts of diversity would you personally like to see?
Where do you draw the line, and refuse to play a game due to character design?
Do you think it would be nice to see ethnic diversity in minor characters, or would you classify that as "shoehorning" in diversity if not very carefully planned by the authors?
When do you feel that criticism crosses a line? Is is acceptable to criticize each individual game that exists, or are some sacrosanct and cannot receive criticism (on this issue of character design, specifically, of course)?
Don't act all innocent and stop acting like you're some kind of victim of people twisting your words. Like the hostility had nothing to do with your choice shit posts? Remember these?
You now say you want more diversity and what not. That sounds good on its face, but that doesn't explain why you've been offensively dismissive of other people's POV the whole time, and your own positions have been vaguely antagonistic to the issues brought up here while refusing to narrow down what you're arguing for.
And not have the GOTY staff sweatbox meeting at all I mean, resulting in less threads here with a required disclaimer saying "please do not call people fake journalists"
E: Sorry for the side tangent, i'll drop it.
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It's right up there with "but this female character enjoys wearing a bikini and high heels to battle!" imo
My problem with Abby's criticism was her absolutist view on it and being dismissive of people that criticized that criticism.
But honestly, her ignorance toward VNs and her seemingly being proud of her opinion that they're all awful despite having no experience with them bothered me more than her Nier criticism.
But honestly, her ignorance toward VNs and her seemingly being proud of her opinion that they're all awful despite having no experience with them bothered me more than her Nier criticism.
In the past year I've seen folk cling so hard to the defense of problematic media just so they can like something conflict free. I dared to criticize Mario games for it's disgusting use of kidnapping and forced marriage and straight up lost friends.
Even better when they will flip around and scream "realism" when women are shown in other stuff getting raped or other demeaning things that also are for titillation. Because as we all know, in a land of flying lizard monsters and zombies, I need women to be portrayed by my assumptions of the past (actual history not needed).
Why the fuck is just saying "yeah I like this thing, I realize that it has some problematic aspects tho" so damn difficult? I played SMO, I loved my time with it, it's a strong contender for GOTY of 2017 for me, and yet I realize the fucking forced marriage bullshit is extremely wrong and shouldn't have been in the game (not that forced marriages can't be a topic in video games, but a cartoony series like Mario isn't well equipped to deal with such a heavy topic). Like, it's not hard.
Reminds me of the "pedo/incest shit in Fire Emblem is okay because those things happened in medieval times!!" crowd. Ah yes, I remember learning about the dragon wars of 1564 in school...
I remember when I was 14... casting Apocalypse... ahh the old days.
That's okay. If you are no longer interested in the conversation, you don't have to participate any further. That's the beauty of internet forums, you can choose which threads you click and you can choose to hit reply or not.
I would refrain from calling everyone toxic and making generalizations, when your own posts have been repeatedly hostile, rude, and dismissive.
.......
I'm... I'm pretty sure that people failing to understand your posts isn't on them. I don't mean to be snarky, but you should really look into using more periods. That's the longest run-on sentence I've seen in years. O.o
You'll get more out of japanese SoL if you read manga instead.
Otherwise, i always suggest Sketchbook full colors, a predecessor to the popularity of KyoAni SoL, focused more on an art club with a big cast than school itself, which personally makes all the difference. Show is much more about humans, art, and motions towards accepting others than useless comedy. Another one that's old and perhaps super hard to find is the original Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou OVA, which is also super good.
My favorite is still "there's an in-game reason she looks like that!"
We got a new Kino's Journey last season. That was pretty good.
'She's part plant and breathes through her skin, you'll be ashamed when you realise this is why she chooses torn fishnets and little else on the battlefield' is going to take some beating, isn't it.
I consider Kino's Journey more in the vein of adventure, like Mushishi (though Mushishi is closer to xxxHolic, which is probably part of the reason I love it so much).
Pretty sure I've seen these. What's the Sketchbook Full Colors romaji name? Definitely seen Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou.
Also, I read manga on occasion, but I tend to just read regular books lately (though not books most people would be interested in I think ^^;).
Yep, definitely seen that one! Again, it's another high school anime.
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Let me tell you about Dragoons and how they use high heels to work their lances as pogo sticks.
Next season is gonna be fire for comedy SoL with Chio-chan no Tsuugakuro, Wotaku ni Koi wa Muzukashii and Hinamatsuri
Honestly those are three of my favorite mangas all get anime adaptations at once. Super exciting Spring in a season where usually all I get is a bunch of shitty fanservice animes.
Oh and Amichu is back, which is high school, but some weird high school where all the girls wear big rose dresses as uniforms.
It would REALLY HURT if you got hit with one! And if you saw a woman coming at you in high heels you'd lower your defense because SURELY SHE WOULDN'T FIGHT ME IN THOSE!!!!!
Hinamatsuri could be good, the other two I'm kinda "eh" at. Admittedly, not super familiar with any of them.
If the Hakumei to Mikochi adaptation is as good as its source material, it's definitely going to be one of the best shows of the year, and that's an SoL too.
Yeah, looking forward to Hakumei to Mikochi. Looks charming as hell.
Chio-Chan fucking GOES PLACES.
Wotaku is a romance anime first, but it's a more honest one than most because half of the show isn't the characters mincing about, trying to formulate how they're going to talk to one another. It also helps that they're adults in the work force.
Wotaku is a romance anime first, but it's a more honest one than most because half of the show isn't the characters mincing about, trying to formulate how they're going to talk to one another. It also helps that they're adults in the work force.
Not much to add but this thread has been a real eye-opener for me, I consider myself a super progressive person especially when it comes to women's issues but I think I (and a lot of other people like me) have had a big blind spot when it comes to being critical of these issues in gaming and going by the amount of responses in this thread I'm glad it's getting some attention. It's depressing to consider how many women have been driven away from gaming, be it from playing them or making them and I hope it turns a corner so everyone can feel comfortable.
Seeing this when I woke up this morning, still groggy, no glasses on had me like:
Glad it's not just me who saw it. To be fair, I'm really not familiar with these people or the videos they do.
Great post! As I posted a while back in this thread, as a guy, I tend to feel more attraction to a female character for what they bring to a game/anime/whatever first that isn't T+A: Voice (if applicable), gameplay (if applicable), presence, and personality with physical looks last. If you have a character that's most striking/memorable feature is a pervy camera or highlighting body parts, you messed up somewhere to me. Having a character going BOING BOING, WIGGLE WIGGLE, SHIMMY SHIMMY SHIMMY "Let's Fight!" is precisely as dumb as it sounds and yet, it's so prevalent in female characters.
I do think if Nintendo could have a design philosophy prioritizing gameplay first and building a game around that, surely there can be a philosophy regarding women being designed with personality and relevance first before designing her physical attributes.
I feel the same way :) There's a lot of stuff I've learned just from listening and reading here. Stuff about character design I never really had a strong opinion of before, things I never really thought about until pointed out to me that makes me go "Now that I think about it, that really doesn't make much sense..."
Yikes, man, that's rough. Even Honest Trailers sorta ragged on the game about this. It's definitely one of the few cases where I can agree with Miyamoto that story should really take a backseat to gameplay. I think if it was in the forefront of the game, it would've been more harshly criticized.
We can all shout forever about these things we want to see but in the end, our vote and survey to the industry is with our money. And this thread has helped make several determinations for me where I'm comfortable my money goes. Reading all the now 207 pages here has been beautiful.
I actually liked mario odyssey because in the ending
after escaping from the moon's core, both mario and bowser unashamedly try to get peach's affection, shoving flowers into her face. She eventually gets annoyed and says no to both of them and just goes home. I thought it was nice to see her actually react to being treated as an object of attraction and a trophy for them to fight over, it was kind of a nice surprise.
I'm sure Odyssey is a blast to play, and even with not having played it I was aware of this ending. I still thought that using the plot angle they did and always have is considerably gross. It's way too mature for the character to handle and in turn gets a sugar coating and helps to normalize it's ugliness.
I wonder how oblivious you'd have to be to buy that. If I make a criticism like "I don't like the color of that carpet", telling me that the person who chose it did so for a reason doesn't do a damned thing to address my criticism.
If there's one peeve I have about the effect of JRPGs and the like on the game industry is the way they stole the word "dragoon". It's a real word to begin with, and it's not supposed to have anything to do with dragons.
This feels like an example of Japanese designers not really understanding the issue.
I agree that that was nice, but it still doesn't negate the whole "lol Bowser kidnapped a woman and forced her to marry him, how funny!" setting, imo. It's an example of taking one step forward and, like, 10 steps back.
also Peach/Pauline is the OTP and should've been made canon
I agree, I've often wondered 'what do British cavalry have to do with it' but apparently, from OED;
I remember being a part of a Nintendo fan forum where one of the most popular threads was a "Is Mario Sexist?" thread that went on for ~fifty pages as a response to this article. Thread is sadly lost due to a back-up error.
Thinking back on it, it was basically just 50 pages of every argument listed in the OP. Folks really didn't want to even admit that tropes could be harmful, let alone think what that would mean for Mario or Zelda.
I did get a kick out of Odyssey's ending, though.
whaddya mean dragoons don't look this
Thinking back on it, it was basically just 50 pages of every argument listed in the OP. Folks really didn't want to even admit that tropes could be harmful, let alone think what that would mean for Mario or Zelda.
I did get a kick out of Odyssey's ending, though.
whaddya mean dragoons don't look this
Wotaku is really great, I love this manga. Can't wait to see the adaptation. Same for Hinamatsuri but I only read 45 chapters of 70 so I'm way distant.
Oh man totally agreed, prfait's art really helped make the case for me
I'm just glad they were able to bring Pauline back in a meaningful way that should affect the rosters of future Mario spinoff games. That's a start.
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