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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
They could have but they didn't. It still doesn't change the fact that they give her more height and that they literally have an application for zooming around with rockets. I don't know, I think that's way cooler than your standard jetpack personally. Trust me, I'd rather have her just be taller but I don't see them as problematic as other designs I've seen in this thread.

I personally have nothing about Samus' jet boots as a concept in Smash 4, I think they give her a few moves that are pretty cool. I find them the epitome of ugly (neon yellow? for real) and, well, they don't look like jet boots at all. All of that said, the notion that she would use them to intimidate her enemies may be the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've read in weeks. :)
 
Nov 6, 2017
224
They could have but they didn't. It still doesn't change the fact that they give her more height and that they literally have an application for zooming around with rockets. I don't know, I think that's way cooler than your standard jetpack personally. Trust me, I'd rather have her just be taller but I don't see them as problematic as other designs I've seen in this thread.
They could have just put the same design around her feet without the heel section and kept in the jetpack uses.

Seriously the heels are not there for intimidation and that's the silliest reason to justify them.
 

Lady Bow

Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,308
the notion that she would use them to intimidate her enemies may be the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've read in weeks. :)

Glad I could make someone's day better. :) There is no "using them." They make her taller. That's it. Taller = More Intimidating. She has enemies bigger than her and smaller her, that's a given! "There's always a bigger fish" as they say.

They could have just put the same design around her feet without the heel section and kept in the jetpack uses.

Seriously the heels are not there for intimidation and that's the silliest reason to justify them.

We can argue about artist intent all day and I don't think we want to go that route. I think rockets coming out of her flat soles would look more silly than wedges/heels to be honest.

Her arms are pretty thin. Her legs are bulky.

Speed boosting all day will do that.

SSgv1Ml.gif
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
Her arms are pretty thin. Her legs are bulky.

They could be bigger for sure, but the overall feel is still very athletic.

Just from a visual design point of view the trope of having a relatively weak/slender individual piloting mechs/power suits is pretty common and makes sense. I have nothing against the SNES design (where Samus was closer to a stronglifter), but also nothing against this route since I've always gotten the image from the games that the power armor is the source of her power.

The heels look dumb as fuck.
 
Nov 6, 2017
224
They could be bigger for sure, but the overall feel is still very athletic.

Just from a visual design point of view the trope of having a relatively weak/slender individual piloting mechs/power suits is pretty common and makes sense. I have nothing against the SNES design (where Samus was closer to a stronglifter), but also nothing against this route since I've always gotten the image from the games that the power armor is the source of her power.

The heels look dumb as fuck.
I think they could have went with a bit more definition in her shoulders and arms as I don't feel it matches the much stronger definition in her legs.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Is "she's wearing heels to intimidate the enemy" the new "she breathes through her skin"?

This thread is the first time I've seen this one (multiple times!), and it's cracking me up. Just... god, hahahaha. "Intimidation" is the last thing I would associate with heels. They're like walking on painful stilts. I'm sure Samus needs to intimidate a bunch of aliens who have the same association with being tall, though. Much more important than being capable of moving around freely.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Is "she's wearing heels to intimidate the enemy" the new "she breathes through her skin"?
Hahaha.

Honestly, the main change I'm seeing with that picture is that Samus has a better pose. Now, pose is a big deal in terms of presentation, but it doesn't do all that much when someone is criticizing the outfit. And her new pose isn't even all that great - it's supposed to be a neutral posture, but Samus still manages to arch her back so she can show off her breasts.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Three more pages of the Thermian Argument... wonderful. Maybe her furrowed brow is also equally intimidating?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Metroids. The most fearless predator in the galaxy. Only one thing scares them. Bounty hunters in heels.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I've been having a productive conversation with Amiibola, and I feel a large part of the issue is a misunderstanding of the connotations of tone policing in the context of social discussion. I know it's been discussed here before, but I feel like an additional bullet point in the OP might help things for those that can't afford to read 100+ pages of discussion. What do you all think?

Not a fan of beak nose.

thatsthejoke.gif. She should look something like this but there's no way in hell they're not making her a hot woman.

Tangentially, it serves as meta-comentary that I tried to find a drawing or picture of a creepy or scary bird woman (I literally googled those terms) and that's as close as "unattractive" as I got besides harpies and one sculpture with exposed breasts. I have a feeling it wouldn't be that hard to find a creepy bird-man.

And women aren't supposed to have muscles, that's gross -_-

That's supposed to be muscular? I was thinking more along the lines of WoW female orcs.
 
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Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,554
Spider-Man is not buff by men standards he is a skinny dude with some cuts which isn't hard for a skinny dude No men in the fictional marvel universe(Jonah Jameson) nor our real world with the actors that have played Spider-Man looks at them as being buff or musclebound certainly not to the point where they would assume great strength or athleticism.
...what?

Peter Parker literally has the same body as Colin McGregor, sans tattoos.

nintchdbpict0002823705646.jpg


Hell, he's MORE buff.

spiderman-tobey-maguire.jpg

spiderman-tobey-maguire.jpg

But tell me again how he's not buff by men's standards (what does that even mean?)
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
That's supposed to be muscular? I was thinking more along the lines of WoW female orcs.
Well she certainly has more definition on her arms than that Zero Suit one. I don't think artists will ACTUALLY draw a buff woman though unless they are referencing an MMA fighter or something. Skinny arms are so common now that as soon as they start looking plump people are like "ughhh bodybuilder body no want!"

The amount of people who scoff at real life women having abs is eye rolling.
 

WadeIt0ut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,985
Iowa
I really don't get the appeal of sexualised female characters in games like RPGs and Hack and Slash games. Is it targeted at teenage boys? Because as a straight adult male unless it has something to do with their story it does nothing for me. If anything it just makes playing it more awkward.
 

WadeIt0ut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,985
Iowa
Aren't most video games? They've been pretty much stuck in theit adolescent phase since the early Nineties...

Yeah I suppose. I guess for me even when I was young scantily clad women characters really did nothing for me. Different strokes for different folks I guess but I've always been bigger into real human beings.
 

Deleted member 35077

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
3,999
I really don't get the appeal of sexualised female characters in games like RPGs and Hack and Slash games. Is it targeted at teenage boys? Because as a straight adult male unless it has something to do with their story it does nothing for me. If anything it just makes playing it more awkward.

In Japan it still very is for a majority of games, you are looked down upon if you still play games after high school because you are expected to focused on getting a career or making a family.
 

WadeIt0ut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,985
Iowa
In Japan it still very is for a majority of games, you are looked down upon if you still play games after high school because you are expected to focused on getting a career or making a family.

Wow this is actually really cool to know. I never really thought about that in regards to Japanese culture but it makes a ton of sense.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,554
I really don't get the appeal of sexualised female characters in games like RPGs and Hack and Slash games. Is it targeted at teenage boys? Because as a straight adult male unless it has something to do with their story it does nothing for me. If anything it just makes playing it more awkward.

It's just part of the marketing, and yes, it's aimed at 16-29 year olds.
 
Dec 24, 2017
131
Michigan
In Japan it still very is for a majority of games, you are looked down upon if you still play games after high school because you are expected to focused on getting a career or making a family.

That's pretty much how anyone that doesn't play games in America feels towards anyone that does regardless of their age.
Film, classic form literature, music, and television are all generally accepted. But video games and comics still get you a lot of sneers from anyone age 40 and up pretty routinely.
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
How is this a fair statement when you just said:



Feels like a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Like you said, it actually makes sense in the context of her Varia Suit and I think the wedges serve multiple purposes: Intimidation (boosting her 6'3" height), and her rocket heels if she still has those. Her breasts can be toned down, sure. I'm just glad they made her look athletic and bulky in comparison to her past Barbie-looking designs.

I don't know how to really spell it out for you more than to say theres a difference between this:

And this:
FSa4Wvi.png


The wet suit serves a functional role primarily. It's obvious to see. Samus' cat suit is obvious to see it serves the primary role of making her more attractive to male gazers. I wouldn't damn anyone for the first example if the camera also doesn't force attention on her figure as well.

To ignore these differences is to be willfully neglectful/ignorant of the intent in the design. You don't need Samus to wear heels to be an intimidating woman there's a whole range of options before getting to that, and in fact heels are not so much intimidating as they are just sexually appealing. So that's actually kinda counterproductive and bad design if intimidation is really what the designers are going for. And if the rocket heels are so useful, then let's see the male soldiers sport them too...
 
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Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Wait, so people don't think it's odd that Samus lacks the sort of athletic physique someone in her line of work would realistically have?

(and no, "it's magic so realism doesn't matter!" isn't an answer)

It's the same Samus that does the morph ball which doesn't make any sense and it's never explained.
But either way, Samus is said for decades that she's part Chozo and that's why she's faster and stronger than a normal human just like other characters in media are without that quantity of muscles.
 
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Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,554
In Japan it still very is for a majority of games, you are looked down upon if you still play games after high school because you are expected to focused on getting a career or making a family.
While true, that sort of oppressive mindset is sort of responsible for fucking up the social norms and freedoms of their society, prompting women not to date because they're too busy with work and prompting men not to date because they'd rather capture the childhood they were never allowed.

Wait, so people don't think it's odd that Samus lacks the sort of athletic physique someone in her line of work would realistically have?

(and no, "it's magic so realism doesn't matter!" isn't an answer)
It's more they don't care because she's attractive.

Realistically, Samus' build should be more like this: NSFW

But a lot of men think this is icky. So...we get what we've always gotten.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
The Zero Suit annoys me because when it was first revealed, it was pretty clear supposed to be those body suits one wears inside a suit of armor (hence the name "zero suit") and was relased along with a bunch of other costumes that appear in the special endings. I like the other costumes because they at least look somewhat like what a normal person would wear (minus the boob socks of course) but we've been sticking to this monstrosity for a while. The only other game to feature more outfits for Samus was Other M and that game has a boatload of other problems and I haven't even played the game for at least 5 years so I can't remember if the teenage Samus outfit was any good or not.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
This should be in bold. Be kind and speak kindly. If you're trying to sway a person towards your view point, scolding them or criticizing them is going to do the exact opposite. It'll bring resentment and disinterest, that's just human nature.
Actually, if "potential allies" require being treated nicely, they are not making decisions based on any kind of ethical point. I've also seen people threaten to leave groups based on ethical considerations for not being treated well enough. What does that mean? It means, the people complaining about tone are only near the group for social validation. If *I* have a concern that comes down to an ethics base (like I believe this topic does, due to the harm caused to the psyches of female children by excess emphasis on physical appearance being the only relevant value they can have in the world), then *I* don't change my ethics due to someone else being rude to me. Because it's a decision I've made, and the other people who have made it separately are not going to affect my views at that point.

What movements DON'T need, are fair weather fans, who show up to be given attention but will also jump into the next social group if they don't get enough attention.
Everyone has their own baggage on here. Everyone. That doesn't justify having an awful attitude towards other users. That's all I have to say about that.
Awful attitudes are justified by users' post histories. It's not difficult to discern when people are not discussing in good faith, when everything they post shows a latent sexism in their attitudes.
Samus is not scrawny in that pic tho.
Samus' arms specifically lack definition. Since the suit is apparently capable of VERY CAREFULLY AND LOVINGLY defining the edges of soft tissue like breasts, it should also be showing definition of the deltoids and triceps. But we can see it doesn't. Did the magic wear off after leaving the torso proper?
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
My headcanon regarding the zero suit is that it's a futuristic polymer that can automatically constrict to be snug. Spider-Man's suit in Homecoming did the same thing. Not saying it's right or anything, just how I always rationalized it (also I'm a guy, so I guess I wouldn't know how breasts work). Although, I guess in Other M, it contradicts this as he suit seems to stretch over her breasts and not shrink wrap them up individually iirc). I'm surprised all this talk about Samus' musculature, this hadn't been posted yet.

comic421_zpsqoongt01.png


Considering the manga showed a lot of her training being running and jumping, it would make sense to me that she would have a build like Michelle Jenneke (the Australian track star known for her "warm-up")

Jenneke-1.jpg


At the risk of sounding pervy, man, she's beautiful <3
 
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psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Awful attitudes are justified by users' post histories. It's not difficult to discern when people are not discussing in good faith, when everything they post shows a latent sexism in their attitudes.

Honestly I wasn't sure if I should bring this up, so thanks for doing it for me lol. Yeah, sometimes I recognize people who come in here because they have a history of saying misogynistic shit in other threads, which is why I don't feel like being particularly nice to them.

My headcanon regarding the zero suit is that it's a futuristic polymer that can automatically constrict to be snug. Spider-Man's suit in Homecoming did the same thing. Not saying it's right or anything, just how I always rationalized it (also I'm a guy, so I guess I wouldn't know how breasts work). Although, I guess in Other M, it contradicts this as he suit seems to stretch over her breasts and not shrink wrap them up individually iirc). I'm surprised all this talk about Samus' musculature, this hadn't been posted yet.

comic421_zpsqoongt01.png

Yes! This is so cute :D
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
On that tangent, I have to say, I absolutely love muscle sliders. Love, love, love, love muscle sliders! It's so incredibly, distressingly rare to get them in games with character creation, even ones with remarkably varied character creation.

After playing with an actually decently-tough looking lady for awhile, it becomes all the more noticeable that women, especially in Japanese video games, are simply not allowed to show muscle. EVER. It's disheartening - downright depressing, really. I can look through an entire ensemble cast of literally dozens of female characters and maybe one will be the token 'buff' female (who will nearly always have above-average sized breasts) - if there are any at all. Hell, just recently I looked through the entire roster of Granblue Fantasy, and the only one I could find is also a bearded lady. So, um, okay?

I've touched on this before, but the fact that real-world athletic women consistently get short shrift when it comes to representation continues to confound me. It sure says a whole hell of a lot about where developers' priorities lie.
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,450
On that tangent, I have to say, I absolutely love muscle sliders. Love, love, love, love muscle sliders! It's so incredibly, distressingly rare to get them in games with character creation, even ones with remarkably varied character creation.

Dragon's Dogma continues to be the best character creator ever. Saints Row 4 is up there too but holy shit, being able to choose height? And posture??? I love it. I made a tall plus size lady warrior and she was amazing.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Dragon's Dogma continues to be the best character creator ever.

Y e s

Y'all haven't lived until you've played as a gigantic muscular, hefty, middle aged warrior woman being supported by her androgynous, lithe, boy mage pawn.

I do have a few complaints about how Dragon's Dogma handles it's women (Mercedes in particular, the poor dear) and the fact that the gender differences on a few outfit choices is unusual to say the least (look, if you have to change a decent vest into boobplate on a girl, give the men more than one pair of short-shorts and bandages for sexy outfit choices come on), but the character creator almost makes up for it.

You can just have a party of little old ladies killing cyclopes. It's fabulous.
 
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