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sersteven

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,222
Philadelphia
How many people have been banned for saying they're afraid they'll be banned for saying something that that won't/haven't actually clearly stated

Man, I've seen your past few posts in the past couple pages, and I see what you're trying to get at. It's not gonna happen. Read some of the other posts in the thread. You're right. There aren't mass bannings. But users with moderate or non-progressive opinions are just straight up scared to post in most threads, and you don't need multiple examples. All it takes is for someone to step in one thread, see the multiple stacks of red text/warnings handed out, and then the rest just don't bother. So yes, there aren't tons of bans and people being outright silenced. But the effect is basically the same.

People like this site, and like posting here, so they aren't going to risk getting banned for calling out certain posters, because that's also clearly against the rules. The fact you're fishing for people to post personal attacks/make claims against other users isn't helpful either.

On the topic:

I'm not gonna virtue signal or anything in here. I love Resetera and I love having a place like this to come too. But I totally understand why some people are upset. It's also just upsetting in general to have threads so frequently closed without any last word. I would much prefer thread making was less moderated and threads were only deleted/closed upon actual rule breaking, not content moderation. I think it stifles discussion and I've seen relatively innocent or fun threads die because they didn't fit. Messaging a mod behind closed doors doesn't feel like a good option either, because you're generally powerless in that position.

Personally I think the road forward is to push one direction or the other. The forum needs to embrace its positioning and just outright label itself as a safe space/tailored discussion board, and make it known that contrary opinions/specific discussions just are not allowed, or step down on the high tempo moderation. I'd personally be fine with either, but sitting in this in-between is just going to continue causing these weird poster wars/battles/constant drama that lingers in Etc. And like another poster said, this year and then 2020 are going to be especially brutal.

Just my two cents.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,184
Uncertainty about what motivates "senders" of public messages leads "receivers" to "read between the lines" to discern the sender's deepest commitments. Anticipating this, senders "write between the lines," editing their expressions so as to further their own ends. I examine how this interactive process of inference and deceit affects the quality and extent of public deliberations on sensitive issues. A principle conclusion is that genuine moral discourse on difficult social issues can become impossible when the risks of upsetting some portion of one's audience are too great. Reliance on euphemism and platitude should be expected in this strategic climate. Groups may embark on a tragic course of action, believed by many at the outset to be ill-conceived, but that has become impossible to criticize.

https://www.brown.edu/Departments/E...mepage/papers/Loury_Political_Correctness.pdf


The paper is written by Glenn Loury. He is an economist at Brown University. I disagree with a number of the things this guy has concluded over the years, but on this issue I think he identifies a phenomenon that Julia Galef, while speaking to Ezra Klein in an interview about online discourse, rightfully identifies as one of the greatest schisms that harm and devolve online discussion and communities. And whether you take his paper seriously or not, the underlying issue being spoken about is pretty hard to deny if you visit any message board on the internet.


We are a species of evolutionarily derived shortcuts, including mental shortcuts. One of those shortcuts is a specific type of filtering bias, and you often see this phenomena and dynamic happen on message boards a lot. Where a person may come into a hypothetical discussion, say Affirmative Action, and that person says something that appears on the surface to mirror what a conservative, victim-blaming troll, or right-wing shill might say about that debate. In doing so, people reading that inevitably update their internal probability calculus that the poster is an outcrop of any number of negatively perceived groups, and often act dismissive and hostile based on that assumption. And that isn't exactly irrational, it's a short-hand that is often correct. But often is not always. And when you have that perception, we inevitably mentally shorten the leash of tolerance toward those people we consider bad faith actors.


And on the other side of that phenomena is people become consciously and subconsciously perceptive to that, so they hesitate to offer opinions that may be perceived as ideologically wrong by the dominant group. So they either feel the need to over-preface their statements so as not to be perceived in that light, or as is more often the case, they refrain altogether from engaging. Which creates a sort of vicious cycle over the long-run. Perceptive people that are concerned with being pigeon-holed into being an undesirable or committing normative sins refrain from engaging. While the now fewer, and less perceptive dissenters(and often less experienced at articulating themselves), or the actual bad-faith actors, are the only ones that continue to engage in some form of dissent. Which serves to strengthen that association calculus. Which actually leads the group to perceiving dissent even more as coming from bad-faith actors. And as dissent reduces, but the internal association calculus doesn't go away, the threshold of deviation away from the norm at which people have that internal calculus applied shrinks. So even smaller and smaller marginal dissent is pilloried by an ever increasing number of people. Then boom, you have an issue echo chamber.


As an example, I mentioned my disagreement with Loury, my reference to Julia Galef and Ezra Klein, one because it is true, but also because I am implicitly aware that if you Google Glenn Loury you will come across many of his often unorthodox opinions. And if I didn't preface this post with those other qualifiers, I suspect I would be subject to scrutiny and shortened leash under that phenomenon as well. Which also made me hesitant to make this post at all.


All of this is not to say that trait is inherently bad. It survived for a reason. If we didn't have it people would get sucked into trolls and malcontents all day, all the time. If we didn't apply that judgement at all messageboards would almost all look like 4chan. We would be paralyzed in our ability to make decisions. It serves a function to help weed out bad actors in our lives, but it also can create echo chambers, encourage dog piles, create disproportionate moderation standards based on perceived group identity, and ultimately stifle healthy conversation when over-applied past it's usefulness. I'm not here to say when or where that threshold gets passed and it becomes more harmful than helpful - though I do think there are a number of issues that get discussed around here where I think it would helpful to leave more room for conversations to breathe - but I think being aware of that mental process can at least(hopefully) help guide people into recognizing the dynamic at play in everyone's decision-making. Certainly for the health of a community but also as individuals, since every one of us is subject to the human condition and the strengths and weaknesses it contains, from conservatives to liberals, posters to moderators.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,466
I don't agree with everything you said but i noticed the bolded aswell. I stopped posting in those threads(Even if i agree with most of them) because i feel like people are just waiting to attack you. Considering i'm not native english i can't be arsed to justify myself or get called insults because my written english wasn't 100% clear.

They are not seeing it as an attack,but a defense. A poster coming in with a contrary opinion is (knowingly, or unknowingly) attacking people sometimes.

The problem is a rush to create conflict with a 'debate' on personal issues, rather than listening.
 
What are the founding principles of this place?
Welcome to ResetEra, a place for video game enthusiasts, industry members and press to come together and discuss their favorite hobby.

Our goal is to create an inviting bonfire that inspires people to have passionate discussions, build bonds with different kinds of people from all over the world, and in general have a good time in a moderated environment. We want ResetEra to be the central hub for people who love video games and everything surrounding them. We put a lot of value in being fair, transparent, and reasonable with our moderation. We want you to feel safe without feeling oppressed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Serious question.

Lets say

One woman comes out against a man.

What are we to do?
You can certainly express hope that it's not true while simultaneously expecting that it is.

But as has been said countless times now, it is exceedingly rare that such accusations aren't true. Look at all of the shit that's come out over the last 6 months in Hollywood. How many of those stories turned out to be false? Meditate on that, man.
 

blinky

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
Exactly this. Someone who believes themselves good and firmly state that they and everyone around them are unquestionably good people very well may be. But being firmly set in the belief that you are a good person raises the question on whether or not you'd notice it if you stopped being one.

There are very few historical villains that didn't think themselves good men or women.
Just want to chime in to say that while I don't agree with most of your posts in this thread (that I've seen anyway), I think you're spot on here. Society would be better off if more people kept in mind that they might be wrong and that they might be the bad guys. Epistemological humility is in very short supply.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,311
And this is the problem.

People argue about the lives and freedoms of people like they're talking about lootboxes. It's meaningless to them because it doesn't affect them. It's just arguing for the sake of arguing. They likely don't think about their words anymore 2 minutes after leaving the thread. Because it's all happening at a distance. No skin in the game, no personal involvement, no genuine care or empathy, no interest in further educating themselves. Just enough care to post a shallow comment, as if it was no more consequential than talking about a lootbox.

Yeeeeeep. They think they're talking about ideological concepts in abstract, rather than positions that, by their nature, will affect how people who cannot change such aspects about themselves may get to live. Additionally they view such things in individual terms, rather than how as one voice among many, they may contribute to the enabling of such positions, even if they don't personally think they would go that far.

Which admittedly then affects the nature of the responses in turn. Because such posters think they're discussing something innocuous, people respond in varying degrees from perturbed to outraged because of it being personal to them (or otherwise just crossing a moral line), and the original poster is thus confused that someone would even feel strongly about it, and in turn incensed that someone would get that mad at them about it. That many people would be incensed about it. So this rapidly escalates things while also not leaving much ability for a conversation to go back down in tone, because they've either unwittingly or quite knowingly turned things up to 11 from the start.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
You and NoblesseOblige literally told him that because he called himself a "good person", he most likely isn't and needs more introspection etc, after another poster accused him of being homophobic, transphobic, racist and bigoted and told him he should work ob being a better person.

I mean come on, his first post might have been some weird bullshit, but what you two do here is literally gaslighting.

Who accused him of being "homophobic, transphobic, racist and bigoted"
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,447
The poster in question and I both seem to have read it the same way, as a statement that he is a bad person.

A great clue that this is how he read it, is that his reply was him stating, "no I think I'm a good person." He felt this was clearly in question, so he tried to defend himself. Then people attacked that too as more evidence he's a bad person.

This is pretty clear.

Not really. If that's your take-away, that's your take-away. It was a posting saying 35 isn't too old for your worldview to adapt, and his current positions are not likely challenged by the people he knows in his life.

If your response to saying you can find ways to improve is "I'm a good person.", you're looking at the wrong way. The poster was saying some of his opinions are likely wrong and formed through his friends and family. That isn't saying your bad. It's saying you probably have a flawed understanding of certain issues. It says nothing about whether or not you are good person. If when someone says you are flawed, you say "I'm good", it does show a certain lack of introspection or an unwillingness/inability to self-evaluate.
 

Etrian Oddity

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,429
I for one wanna give a shout-out to the mods for letting this thread go. It would be very easy to stamp it out for criticism, but our team clearly loves this community and genuinely wants it to evolve and improve. Thanks.
 

D i Z

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,085
Where X marks the spot.
The poster in question and I both seem to have read it the same way, as a statement that he is a bad person.

A great clue that this is how he read it, is that his reply was him stating, "no I think I'm a good person." He felt this was clearly in question, so he tried to defend himself. Then people attacked that too as more evidence he's a bad person.

This is pretty clear.

Here's the thing. What people "attacked"? That didn't happen. Stop taking a 3 to 9 like that.
 

Deleted member 6215

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,087
This thread is a great example of what is going to happen to Era if it continues down the path of impotent moderating. Posts filled will people whining about bubbles, dog-piling, echo chambers, "orthodoxy", eggshells, and all other manners of bullshit - without one single fucking example of the views they aren't "allowed" to express or how they are being treated unfairly. Bobby Roberts said it already on the first page: if you want good discussions, fill the room with good people. Otherwise, "garbage in, garbage out" is what you should expect.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,480
Serious question.

Lets say

One woman comes out against a man.

What are we to do? It seems like if one woman speaks out the actor is done. Then again I assume most are not fake.

I just dont knlw what to believe sometimes and when to witch hunt the actor/s.

As long as tom hanks , keanu reeves , denzel , morgan freeman are good. Ill be happy
If you for some reason do not believe her because reasons, keep it to yourself. It's that simple. Maybe take a look inside to see why you don't believe her. What's the substance behind your stance?

If there are inconsistencies in the case, no one is going to ban you for discussing those inconsistencies.
 

LionPride

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,804
Thing is

It's fine to say "Damn, I hope this isn't true but if it is that's no bueno"

It's not fine to say "Why should we believe them it's heresay"

ignoring how false accusations are not a regular thing and I'm saying this as a black dude. We know a thing or two about false accusations.

that's why believe women is a thing, it's all encompassing, if some dude was like he/she touched me inappropriately, they'd be believed too, but so far this has been dominated by women pointing out dudes who've fucked up or committes straight up crimes
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,954
Serious question.

Lets say

One woman comes out against a man.

What are we to do? It seems like if one woman speaks out the actor is done. Then again I assume most are not fake.

I just dont knlw what to believe sometimes and when to witch hunt the actor/s.

As long as tom hanks , keanu reeves , denzel , morgan freeman are good. Ill be happy

What you do is, unless it's ridiculous on its face, you understand that practically no one makes up sexual assault allegations for fun. You're also a poster on a message board. You don't need to "witch hunt" anyone. It's your decision whether to consume media that adds to that actor's bottom line, or not. Nothing anyone here does is going to matter in the grand scheme of things when it comes to an actor.

But because you understand these things, when you do contribute to discussions, your viewpoints can be appropriately nuanced. For instance, I've historically chimed in to offer my armchair legal opinion, but even if my ultimate conclusion is "this doesn't meet a certain legal definition," I've at least tried to ensure that my posts aren't drive-bys.

Basically, what you do is not act in a way that's respectful of the women reading your posts. That's really it. That part isn't too hard.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
This thread is a great example of what is going to happen to Era if it continues down the path of impotent moderating. Posts filled will people whining about bubbles, dog-piling, echo chambers, "orthodoxy", eggshells, and all other manners of bullshit - without one single fucking example of the views they aren't "allowed to express or how they are being treated unfairly. Bobby Roberts said it already on the first page: if you want good discussions, fill the room with good people. Otherwise, "garbage in, garbage out" is what you should expect.

And if you ask for clarification and examples, you're ban baiting and trying to trick folks into getting got.
 

Owarifin

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,741
On any side, if attacks become personal, those users need a timeout.
Once things become personal, it's gotten away from the discussion.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
Man, I've seen your past few posts in the past couple pages, and I see what you're trying to get at. It's not gonna happen. Read some of the other posts in the thread. You're right. There aren't mass bannings. But users with moderate or non-progressive opinions are just straight up scared to post in most threads, and you don't need multiple examples. All it takes is for someone to step in one thread, see the multiple stacks of red text/warnings handed out, and then the rest just don't bother. So yes, there aren't tons of bans and people being outright silenced. But the effect is basically the same.

People like this site, and like posting here, so they aren't going to risk getting banned for calling out certain posters, because that's also clearly against the rules. The fact you're fishing for people to post personal attacks/make claims against other users isn't helpful either.

On the topic:

I'm not gonna virtue signal or anything in here. I love Resetera and I love having a place like this to come too. But I totally understand why some people are upset. It's also just upsetting in general to have threads so frequently closed without any last word. I would much prefer thread making was less moderated and threads were only deleted/closed upon actual rule breaking, not content moderation. I think it stifles discussion and I've seen relatively innocent or fun threads die because they didn't fit. Messaging a mod behind closed doors doesn't feel like a good option either, because you're generally powerless in that position.

Personally I think the road forward is to push one direction or the other. The forum needs to embrace its positioning and just outright label itself as a safe space/tailored discussion board, and make it known that contrary opinions/specific discussions just are not allowed, or step down on the high tempo moderation. I'd personally be fine with either, but sitting in this in-between is just going to continue causing these weird poster wars/battles/constant drama that lingers in Etc. And like another poster said, this year and then 2020 are going to be especially brutal.

Just my two cents.

I'm not "fishing" not did I say anything about mass bannings. I'm looking for evidence to back up these claims, not persecution complexes or vague references to opinions.

"Basically" is not enough.
 

scotdar

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
580
I completely support women and victims but I also know human memory and testimony is terrible. I fully accept that 99% of the time it is what it is but even the slightest hesitation will get you in the he is against us group. People are triggered because I even referenced that people say that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,722
I feel like this thread has gone waaaay off-course from its original intent. Like Kristoffer remarked earlier, it has become more about 'what's in a moderator' and less 'what's in us'.
What you put into a community is what you are likely to get back from it.
 

Rembrandt

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,270
the report button is kinda lame and open to abuse.

This thread is a great example of what is going to happen to Era if it continues down the path of impotent moderating. Posts filled will people whining about bubbles, dog-piling, echo chambers, "orthodoxy", eggshells, and all other manners of bullshit - without one single fucking example of the views they aren't "allowed" to express or how they are being treated unfairly. Bobby Roberts said it already on the first page: if you want good discussions, fill the room with good people. Otherwise, "garbage in, garbage out" is what you should expect.

ironic you're holding somebody fresh from a ban as an example of where the site should go.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
Yeah I agree with this. I feel like a ton of people who post about stuff that's serious and directly impacts others.. aren't really affected by the content they're voicing an opinion about.

This is something I disagree with, because even if it's just your opinion you've added something to the discussion. That's Freedom of Speech. However that doesn't mean anyone has to respect your opinion or you can face no consequences for expressing that opinion. So if someone disagrees with your opinion you better be able to back it up or back down and stop posting.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,437
New York
Diversity of thought is a valuable thing for any discussion board, whether most people who represent the majority position understand that or not.

It is possible to have civil disagreement and debate with other people, even on heated topics, where people passionately disagree. Possible, but not if diversity of thought is not valued.

Diversity of thought is absolutely healthy. But there should be some non-negotiables:

Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and bigotry won't be tolerated. Let's not pretend that some folks on this forums attempt to skirt around this principle in the name of "diversity of thought" and "just asking questions". Then when called out on it cry foul that they're being unfairly dog-piled and that there's this political orthodoxy.

And like another poster said, this year and then 2020 are going to be especially brutal.

Oh they gonna be meltdowns for sure when Trump gets that re-election W or L. One side will be cocky as shit and another furious.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,939
I completely support women and victims but I also know human memory and testimony is terrible. I fully accept that 99% of the time it is what it is but even the slightest hesitation will get you in the he is against us group. People are triggered because I even referenced that people say that.

Have there been a lot of cases of women remembering something as rape that wasn't?
 

Deleted member 1120

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,511
Diversity of thought is a valuable thing for any discussion board, whether most people who represent the majority position understand that or not.

It is possible to have civil disagreement and debate with other people, even on heated topics, where people passionately disagree. Possible, but not if diversity of thought is not valued.
What do you mean by diversity of thought?
 

Thornton Reed

Member
Oct 30, 2017
857
The easy answer is close etc era. I'm yet to see an example of civil discourse on an Internet forum. Especially when the topic is political.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
This thread is a great example of what is going to happen to Era if it continues down the path of impotent moderating. Posts filled will people whining about bubbles, dog-piling, echo chambers, "orthodoxy", eggshells, and all other manners of bullshit - without one single fucking example of the views they aren't "allowed" to express or how they are being treated unfairly. Bobby Roberts said it already on the first page: if you want good discussions, fill the room with good people. Otherwise, "garbage in, garbage out" is what you should expect.

I disagree with this viewing. I need to keep believing in humanity and its ability to change and evolve. I can't give up on that. I'm all for banning those that actually indulge in racist / misogynist / white-supremacist / nazi views. But like Rose says, we won't win by killing what we hate, but saving what we love. Those that step out of the line need to be punished, but we need to give them a shot to try, a shot to evolve and get better. Era is doing a stellar job with this, and I hope it keeps doing.

The easy answer is close etc era. I'm yet to see an example of civil discourse on an Internet forum. Especially when the topic is political.

I'm sorry, but this is bullshit. We have seen several examples of great and productive discussions happening here. If you don't feel the same that's too bad, but you can always go back to the gaming thread if Etc. is not what you like.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
This is something I disagree with, because even if it's just your opinion you've added something to the discussion. That's Freedom of Speech. However that doesn't mean anyone has to respect your opinion or you can face no consequences for expressing that opinion. So if someone disagrees with your opinion you better be able to back it up or back down and stop posting.
"I need more info" or "I don't believe it" isn't adding anything of value to a discussion. At all. In addition, according to the values that center around protecting and supporting women/victims of sexual abuse, ERA can deem a poster's content as being detrimental to those established values.

It's their right to do so.
 

SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,544
We've let this discussion go on as long as possible so the community could express itself and you've all given us a lot to think about. A lot of good has come from it, and unfortunately some not so good. Regrettably, the tone appears to have deteriorated and members are being less and less civil to each other (we understand the irony) and so we believe this thread has run its course.
 
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