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MyQuarters

Member
Oct 25, 2017
830
UK
She told him no a bunch of times in a variety of ways, I'm not sure how we help someone who can't take no for an answer.

In the quote in the OP she said "I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn't interested. I don't think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored."
That says to me that even she doesn't think she gave an overt "no, I don't want to be in this situation"

again, that's not her fault & I understand that there's pressure and confusion which makes it difficult for a victim to extract themselves from a situation like this, but it means I can understand why somebody famous who's probably used to girls wanting to fuck them might not be geared up to pick up on cues to the contrary.


I'm never going to say that what he did wasn't wrong, I just feel like (and this is the point I don't expect anybody to respond to) there's never enough focus on the narrative being education rather than just punishment.

Sure it's a very sad situation we're in that people in power even need to be educated on consent, but after years of big business, hollywood and the like, that's just where we're at, unfortunately.
 

Solace

Dog's Best Friend
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,920
You're essentially saying it's ok for men to be sexual creeps because of the heat of the moment. This is so close to the defense of that shitty Stanford kid who got out of charges of rape.

His life won't be ruined. He's a millionaire celebrity who has made his fame.

I am not saying it's OK for men to be a sexual creep. I am saying there is a grey area, people are not either Weinstein or Tom Hanks.
And in this specific case, I don't see an assault, I just see an stupid man following his dick instead of his brain.
And to think someone's life could not be destroyed because they are a millionaire is just wrong. Life is not just money. I am sure you saw that video of Weinstein getting slapped in a restaurant, that's a life ruined (and rightfully ruined) and no money can redeem that.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
In the quote in the OP she said "I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn't interested. I don't think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored."
That says to me that even she doesn't think she gave an overt "no, I don't want to be in this situation"

again, that's not her fault & I understand that there's pressure and confusion which makes it difficult for a victim to extract themselves from a situation like this, but it means I can understand why somebody famous who's probably used to girls wanting to fuck them might not be geared up to pick up on cues to the contrary.

If you read the whole article, I really don't know how you can misread those cues that many times. It does feel like he was ignoring them on purpose.

I am not saying it's OK for men to be a sexual creep. I am saying there is a grey area, people are not either Weinstein or Tom Hanks.
And in this specific case, I don't see an assault, I just see an stupid man following his dick instead of his brain.
And to think someone's life could not be destroyed because they are a millionaire is just wrong. Life is not just money. I am sure you saw that video of Weinstein getting slapped in a restaurant, that's a life ruined (and rightfully ruined) and no money can redeem that.

Weinstein getting some very light slaps is not his life ruined. Not even close.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,652
n the quote in the OP she said "I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn't interested. I don't think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored."
That says to me that even she doesn't think she gave an overt "no, I don't want to be in this situation"

again, that's not her fault & I understand that there's pressure and confusion which makes it difficult for a victim to extract themselves from a situation like this, but it means I can understand why somebody famous who's probably used to girls wanting to fuck them might not be geared up to pick up on cues to the contrary.

She gave him plenty of verbal cues... and some overt physical ones like constantly shifting away from him.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
Threads like this are frustrating, because it feels like there are always a handful of posters waiting in the wings for some champion to post a thoughtless crass argument. Rather than refusing to let them, intentionally or not, shape the tenor of the thread, we quote them over and over and over again and give the lowest effort thoughts the most power. I'll wake up tomorrow and someone who's thought about the topic for all of the time it took them to read the piece will post a hot take, and then everyone will take the bait or otherwise refute the lowest hanging fruits, everyone will get angry, and ba-da-bing ba-da-boom here we are again.
It's why I am starting to think there needs to be a mod/ admin message in the op in threads like this. Something like victim blaming will get a warning continue and you will get a ban. Then a warning about the the even worse stuff some post. It will stop some of the constant going in circles we get
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,285
I'll say again what I said a few pages back:

It's incredibly telling to me that in the stories of Louis CK, Harmon and now Aziz the amount of posters who try to dissect the story and claim a 'witch hunt', 'gray area' or 'well it wasn't rape'. Yet when it comes to people that are universally disliked it's immediate "Fuck them, lets bury them". If you opinion of situations changes based on who the person is then you need to step back and re-asses what you're reading.

I am not saying it's OK for men to be a sexual creep. I am saying there is a grey area, people are not either Weinstein or Tom Hanks.
And in this specific case, I don't see an assault, I just see an stupid man following his dick instead of his brain.
And to think someone's life could not be destroyed because they are a millionaire is just wrong. Life is not just money. I am sure you saw that video of Weinstein getting slapped in a restaurant, that's a life ruined (and rightfully ruined) and no money can redeem that.

Again, WHY DO WE ALWAYS HAVE TO COMPARE. It doesn't matter if it's Ghandi or some bum on the street, sexual assault is WRONG. Chasing a girl around your apartment, gesturing to your dick, forcing your fingers into her mouth, saying "Where do you want me to fuck you" after MULTIPLE GESTURES OF DISPLEASURE IS FUCKING WRONG.

A lot of us in this thread have had to defend over and over how we're not calling for witch hunts and for people to burn at the stakes yet so many of you continue to view it that way. If you're take away from the whole #MeToo movement is witch hunts then you've missed the fucking picture.
 

MyQuarters

Member
Oct 25, 2017
830
UK
I am not saying it's OK for men to be a sexual creep. I am saying there is a grey area, people are not either Weinstein or Tom Hanks.
And in this specific case, I don't see an assault, I just see an stupid man following his dick instead of his brain.
And to think someone's life could not be destroyed because they are a millionaire is just wrong. Life is not just money. I am sure you saw that video of Weinstein getting slapped in a restaurant, that's a life ruined (and rightfully ruined) and no money can redeem that.

This is kind of what I'm saying, except it's still very much an assault & whether knowingly or unknowingly he's still guilty of it
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
In the quote in the OP she said "I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn't interested. I don't think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored."
That says to me that even she doesn't think she gave an overt "no, I don't want to be in this situation"

again, that's not her fault & I understand that there's pressure and confusion which makes it difficult for a victim to extract themselves from a situation like this, but it means I can understand why somebody famous who's probably used to girls wanting to fuck them might not be geared up to pick up on cues to the contrary.


I'm never going to say that what he did wasn't wrong, I just feel like (and this is the point I don't expect anybody to respond to) there's never enough focus on the narrative being education rather than just punishment.

Sure it's a very sad situation we're in that people in power even need to be educated on consent, but after years of big business, hollywood and the like, that's just where we're at, unfortunately.
She also verbally declined or said she isn't interested in sex at that time, which were met with Aziz ignoring all of that and continuing his aggressive pursuit of getting in dat pussy.

Also, when the non-verbal cues are as clear as walking away and taking one's hand off the dick of the person after he forcibly put your hand there, anyone with half a brain should understand maybe there needs to be a time out and to reaffirm that there is actually any willingness to have sex on the other person's part.
 
Oct 30, 2017
124
I am in no way excusing how Aziz acted, saying it's understandable or acceptable, that I would ever act that way, etc. etc. etc. Also, I'd like to say that this is only in response to the original article about the date. If anything else comes out that's a different story.

But this article left a bad taste in my mouth and I don't think it is justifiable in the message it sends. Aziz acted horribly, unacceptably, and should have been made aware of how he upset that girl. Except, the thing is, he was made aware, through a long, well written text, having previously not realized the date had been a different experience for the girl. After he subsequently apologized in his next text, that was it, and I would hope that Aziz had learnt from that experience, and would not blame the girl for telling all of her friends about the date, advising everyone she knew to stay away from Aziz, not date him, etc.. After all, she had a bad experience with him and he was a creeper. Makes sense. What doesn't make sense, in my eyes, is a hugely personal public takedown that in the current climate has the potential to destroy a career, and one of the most positive asian-american role models for this generation. All over an experience that, in my eyes, did not reveal behaviour that was so dangerous or harmful as to warrant such an outing.

I have a feeling that Aziz's status as a celebrity has warped his judgement on what behavior is acceptable, because I imagine that being a successful, famous single young guy (or girl) makes dating a lot of the time a bit easy. To the point that behavior that would normally be questioned or disapproved of was let slide because the date was a little star struck or otherwise. I'm not saying this excuses bad behavior, but that I could see how such a culture could foster such an attitude inside someone without them even realizing that it is happening. So we can see in the article how Aziz acts, for the most part (and again this isn't okay), like he is on some super-easy hookup date. The hastily leaving the restaurant, oral within minutes of getting back to the apartment...these are the actions of a guy who (if we assume he isn't thinking "Fuck this slow shit I'm gonna get this girl back to mine so I can hastily pressure her into having sex with me") had misread a date as being about casual sex. And obviously that wasn't what the girl wanted. But basically what I'm getting at is surely an explanation like this, that expects a level of inner human decency and logic that isn't totally awful and heinous, is more plausible and sensible than Aziz being an evil attempted racist etc. etc. In reading the original article, can you not see how someone perhaps unused to dealing with a partner who wasn't consenting could not pick up on some non-consensual cues, and, yes, mixed messages? How he could text the next day sure that the date had gone okay?? I'm sure many guys could serve to learn a few lessons about how Aziz's advances were taken, how unacceptable they were, about when 'no' doesn't mean 'not yet', and all of that, but for me that doesn't warrant the public, intensely personal takedown of a man who in my eyes, while he needs to change drastically and it's good he has been shown how his actions were unacceptable, did not deserve a response to such actions in the form of a huge, viral, deeply personal takedown that could potentially destroy his life, all over one date where he acted shitty.

I've had Twitter multiple times in the past and always delete my account because I honestly think it's fucking insane. People on there can be so divorced from reality, issues are minimized to black and white dilemmas just due to the nature of the character limit. I've seen threads and replies on there that have horrified me in how single-minded they are....how they strip all but the worst qualities away from something until it becomes your worst nightmare, an incarnation of pure evil. Sounds dramatic but that's how some people act on there. And in such a climate I honestly think it's horrible to be so public over an allegation on this level.

Again, I would like to reiterate, I am not victim blaming, condoning this behaviour, any of this. That he acted like this is shameful. If I found out one of my girl friends had been on a date like this I would hate the guy's guts and hope he realised or had been told how terribly he acted. But I wouldn't wish that he experienced worldwide public humiliation for the incident on the level of Aziz.
 

MyQuarters

Member
Oct 25, 2017
830
UK
If you read the whole article, I really don't know how you can misread those cues that many times. It does feel like he was ignoring them on purpose.

She gave him plenty of verbal cues... and some overt physical ones like constantly shifting away from him.

We weren't there so can only judge on the things that have been said. In this case the victim has said that she thinks he might not have noticed her cues so I'm taking that at face value.
If I were on a jury for this, I might not be so lenient, but it's not my (or anyone here's) job to do that, though. Better to focus on positivity and understanding how we can make people more aware of how consent is supposed to work & how to pick up on these kinds of cues.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,285
Again, I would like to reiterate, I am not victim blaming, condoning this behaviour, any of this. That he acted like this is shameful. If I found out one of my girl friends had been on a date like this I would hate the guy's guts and hope he realised or had been told how terribly he acted. But I wouldn't wish that he experienced worldwide public humiliation for the incident on the level of Aziz.

She only went public because Aziz stood on stage with a TimesUp pin at the Golden Globes. She very clearly indicates this in her story
 

MyQuarters

Member
Oct 25, 2017
830
UK
I am in no way excusing how Aziz acted, saying it's understandable or acceptable, that I would ever act that way, etc. etc. etc. Also, I'd like to say that this is only in response to the original article about the date. If anything else comes out that's a different story.

But this article left a bad taste in my mouth and I don't think it is justifiable in the message it sends. Aziz acted horribly, unacceptably, and should have been made aware of how he upset that girl. Except, the thing is, he was made aware, through a long, well written text, having previously not realized the date had been a different experience for the girl. After he subsequently apologized in his next text, that was it, and I would hope that Aziz had learnt from that experience, and would not blame the girl for telling all of her friends about the date, advising everyone she knew to stay away from Aziz, not date him, etc.. After all, she had a bad experience with him and he was a creeper. Makes sense. What doesn't make sense, in my eyes, is a hugely personal public takedown that in the current climate has the potential to destroy a career, and one of the most positive asian-american role models for this generation. All over an experience that, in my eyes, did not reveal behaviour that was so dangerous or harmful as to warrant such an outing.

I have a feeling that Aziz's status as a celebrity has warped his judgement on what behavior is acceptable, because I imagine that being a successful, famous single young guy (or girl) makes dating a lot of the time a bit easy. To the point that behavior that would normally be questioned or disapproved of was let slide because the date was a little star struck or otherwise. I'm not saying this excuses bad behavior, but that I could see how such a culture could foster such an attitude inside someone without them even realizing that it is happening. So we can see in the article how Aziz acts, for the most part (and again this isn't okay), like he is on some super-easy hookup date. The hastily leaving the restaurant, oral within minutes of getting back to the apartment...these are the actions of a guy who (if we assume he isn't thinking "Fuck this slow shit I'm gonna get this girl back to mine so I can hastily pressure her into having sex with me") had misread a date as being about casual sex. And obviously that wasn't what the girl wanted. But basically what I'm getting at is surely an explanation like this, that expects a level of inner human decency and logic that isn't totally awful and heinous, is more plausible and sensible than Aziz being an evil attempted racist etc. etc. In reading the original article, can you not see how someone perhaps unused to dealing with a partner who wasn't consenting could not pick up on some non-consensual cues, and, yes, mixed messages? How he could text the next day sure that the date had gone okay?? I'm sure many guys could serve to learn a few lessons about how Aziz's advances were taken, how unacceptable they were, about when 'no' doesn't mean 'not yet', and all of that, but for me that doesn't warrant the public, intensely personal takedown of a man who in my eyes, while he needs to change drastically and it's good he has been shown how his actions were unacceptable, did not deserve a response to such actions in the form of a huge, viral, deeply personal takedown that could potentially destroy his life, all over one date where he acted shitty.

I've had Twitter multiple times in the past and always delete my account because I honestly think it's fucking insane. People on there can be so divorced from reality, issues are minimized to black and white dilemmas just due to the nature of the character limit. I've seen threads and replies on there that have horrified me in how single-minded they are....how they strip all but the worst qualities away from something until it becomes your worst nightmare, an incarnation of pure evil. Sounds dramatic but that's how some people act on there. And in such a climate I honestly think it's horrible to be so public over an allegation on this level.

Again, I would like to reiterate, I am not victim blaming, condoning this behaviour, any of this. That he acted like this is shameful. If I found out one of my girl friends had been on a date like this I would hate the guy's guts and hope he realised or had been told how terribly he acted. But I wouldn't wish that he experienced worldwide public humiliation for the incident on the level of Aziz.

Other than the bit about Aziz being a positive asian-american role model (it shouldn't matter who he is) I totally agree with this & it expresses my view a lot better than I seem to have been able to articulate
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,529
I'll say again what I said a few pages back:

It's incredibly telling to me that in the stories of Louis CK, Harmon and now Aziz the amount of posters who try to dissect the story and claim a 'witch hunt', 'gray area' or 'well it wasn't rape'. Yet when it comes to people that are universally disliked it's immediate "Fuck them, lets bury them". If you opinion of situations changes based on who the person is then you need to step back and re-asses what you're reading.
You've probably posted about this before, and if so feel free to just link me to it. A shitty question: do you not see a difference between a story like this, and a Spacey or a Weinstein scenario? I know, I know. But when I read your post that's the big piece I find hard to justify. Like... yes, of course I view these situations differently. My opinions change based on the accusations and the patterns of behaviour, not the person. What am I missing?
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,159
I'd like to remind people that 9/10 times when stories like this one come out, you start to get more stories from people who have interacted with the person in question. Maybe that will show that this was a rare case of going over the line or maybe it will show serial behavior.

Basically, if you feel the need to defend him or alternatively condemn him for life, I say let's give it a week because we will almost certainly have a clearer picture then. It was brave of her to tell her story and I wish her the best given how terrible people online can be.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,739
UK
How are a couple people here missing the points where she says no at the mirror moment and she doesn't want be forced for sex with the "second date" which he equated to an alcoholic drink? Those verbal cues are on top of her physically moving away.

Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was. "Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points," she said. "I stopped moving my lips and turned cold."

Whether Ansari didn't notice Grace's reticence or knowingly ignored it is impossible for her to say. "I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn't interested. I don't think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored."

Ansari wanted to have sex. She said she remembers him asking again and again, "Where do you want me to fuck you?" while she was still seated on the countertop. She says she found the question tough to answer because she says she didn't want to fuck him at all.

"I wasn't really even thinking of that, I didn't want to be engaged in that with him. But he kept asking, so I said, 'Next time.' And he goes, 'Oh, you mean second date?' and I go, 'Oh, yeah, sure,' and he goes, 'Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?'" He then poured her a glass and handed it to her. She excused herself to the bathroom soon after.

Grace says she spent around five minutes in the bathroom, collecting herself in the mirror and splashing herself with water. Then she went back to Ansari. He asked her if she was okay. "I said I don't want to feel forced because then I'll hate you, and I'd rather not hate you," she said.

She told babe that at first, she was happy with how he reacted. "He said, 'Oh, of course, it's only fun if we're both having fun.' The response was technically very sweet and acknowledging the fact that I was very uncomfortable. Verbally, in that moment, he acknowledged that I needed to take it slow. Then he said, 'Let's just chill over here on the couch.'"

This moment is particularly significant for Grace, because she thought that would be the end of the sexual encounter — her remark about not wanting to feel "forced" had added a verbal component to the cues she was trying to give him about her discomfort. When she sat down on the floor next to Ansari, who sat on the couch, she thought he might rub her back, or play with her hair — something to calm her down.

Ansari instructed her to turn around. "He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable."

Soon, he pulled her back up onto the couch. She would tell her friend via text later that night, "He [made out] with me again and says, 'Doesn't look like you hate me.'"

Halfway into the encounter, he led her from the couch to a different part of his apartment. He said he had to show her something. Then he brought her to a large mirror, bent her over and asked her again, "Where do you want me to fuck you? Do you want me to fuck you right here?" He rammed his penis against her ass while he said it, pantomiming intercourse.

"I just remember looking in the mirror and seeing him behind me. He was very much caught up in the moment and I obviously very much wasn't," Grace said. "After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don't think I'm ready to do this, I really don't think I'm going to do this. And he said, 'How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?'"

They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they'd already "chilled" on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. She'd never seen it before. She said that's when the reality of what was going on sank in. "It really hit me that I was violated. I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible."

While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. She remembers "feeling in a different mindset at that point."

"I remember saying, 'You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same.'" Ansari asked her what she meant. When she turned to answer, she says he met her with "gross, forceful kisses."

After that last kiss, Grace stood up from the couch, moved back to the kitchen island where she left her phone, and said she would call herself a car. He hugged her and kissed her goodbye, another "aggressive" kiss. When she pulled away, Ansari finally relented and insisted he'd call her the car.

It seems crystal clear Aziz kept forcing sexual actions after being rejected multiple times.
 
Oct 30, 2017
124
Other than the bit about Aziz being a positive asian-american role model (it shouldn't matter who he is) I totally agree with this & it expresses my view a lot better than I seem to have been able to articulate

I do agree with you that it shouldn't matter who he is, I guess in my eyes it just adds to what makes the situation just that little bit more frustrating. I don't think it should have affected the girls judgement if she wanted to make the article, but I guess I didn't really make that clear.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,285
You've probably posted about this before, and if so feel free to just link me to it. A shitty question: do you not see a difference between a story like this, and a Spacey or a Weinstein scenario? I know, I know. But when I read your post that's the big piece I find hard to justify. Like... yes, of course I view these situations differently. My opinions change based on the accusations and the patterns of behaviour, not the person. What am I missing?

Yes, the situation of Spacey and Aziz are very different. What I'm trying to highlight is people like Aziz and Louis CK are seen as pro-feminist and loved by a lot of people. So when these stories broke there was a lot of dissecting of stories and often downplaying the situation. People not being able to asses the story and realize that just because it was not a Spacey or Weinstein does not diminish the allegations and does not change the point of the movement which is to bring awareness of the various forms of sexual assault. Shit, I remember when the stories on Bill O'Reilly broke the old forum was rabid to have him thrown into the ocean and left to die.

This very thread has multiple people saying "I don't see the problem, it's not like he pulled a Weinstein". Those very comments are the ones I'm trying to highlight and call out in hypocrisy.
 

MyQuarters

Member
Oct 25, 2017
830
UK
I do agree with you that it shouldn't matter who he is, I guess in my eyes it just adds to what makes the situation just that little bit more frustrating. I don't think it should have affected the girls judgement if she wanted to make the article, but I guess I didn't really make that clear.

Yeah, think we're pretty much on the same page then!

But yeah, it's damn frustrating. Whether intentional or not, it's just upsetting to see so many people not understanding how to conduct themselves in situations like this.
I guess it's down to gender-dynamics, power and fame dynamics and I suppose that casual hook ups being such a thing is relatively recent?

I don't know, but hopefully all the talk about this shit will at least have more people thinking about their own actions and maybe paying more consideration to people they're pressuring into sexual situations, whether knowingly or not.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,652
As for another reason why she didn't just leave right away.... has anyone who keeps asking consider she might have actually liked him and enjoyed the date they went on and was hoping to salvage it...

"I said I don't want to feel forced because then I'll hate you, and I'd rather not hate you,"

Like she literally says as much.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,434
She only went public because Aziz stood on stage with a TimesUp pin at the Golden Globes. She very clearly indicates this in her story

Him wearing that pin and this incident happening before that doesn't mean he doesn't support the movement. Maybe her text made him think long and hard about who he was and he changed. Having someone in your corner who's famous and can help spread the word is a good thing to have. Now whatever he does or says in support of the movement, will be tainted and less impactful.
 

Malleymal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,381
It doesn't matter what has been done up to any part... if a girl says No then you stop. If she has performed oral, and then you put a claw down her mouth that she hates and says no, stop.... it's over.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,285
Him wearing that pin and this incident happening before that doesn't mean he doesn't support the movement. Maybe her text made him think long and hard about who he was and he changed. Having someone in your corner who's famous and can help spread the word is a good thing to have. Now whatever he does or says in support of the movement, will be tainted and less impactful.

Aziz was already under question after his second season of Master of None. The entire story line with Dev, and really in both seasons, was fucking suspect as hell.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,529
Yes, the situation of Spacey and Aziz are very different. What I'm trying to highlight is people like Aziz and Louis CK are seen as pro-feminist and loved by a lot of people. So when these stories broke there was a lot of dissecting of stories and often downplaying the situation. People not being able to asses the story and realize that just because it was not a Spacey or Weinstein does not diminish the allegations and does not change the point of the movement which is to bring awareness of the various forms of sexual assault. Shit, I remember when the stories on Bill O'Reilly broke the old forum was rabid to have him thrown into the ocean and left to die.

This very thread has multiple people saying "I don't see the problem, it's not like he pulled a Weinstein". Those very comments are the ones I'm trying to highlight and call out in hypocrisy.
Yeah, that all makes sense. Can I pick your brain about something else? (Or anyone else reading this obviously.)

In a case like this, what is the function of calling out someone like Ansari by name? Is it to get public interest and thus broadcast the message further? Or do you think there's a real fear he's a predator? It could be some mix of both, I suppose.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,285
Yeah, that all makes sense. Can I pick your brain about something else? (Or anyone else reading this obviously.)

In a case like this, what is the function of calling out someone like Ansari by name?

If this was just another story shared it'd be just "Oh wow, men are creeps" and people would move on. By calling out Aziz by name, someone who has claimed to champion feminism, it highlights that even people like him are capable of this. Attaching his name brings more recognition to the discussion. It also, as we're seeing, can empower more people to speak up with their own stories of Aziz.

Suspect, but the show won numerous awards for his story?

Oh, so awards are justification for the content of films & tv shows? Roman Polanski & Woody Allen won awards too, does that absolve their art and actions? The fact that Aziz wrote a character who pursues a married woman to the point of causing her to question her marriage and leave is really suspect.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I'll say again what I said a few pages back:

It's incredibly telling to me that in the stories of Louis CK, Harmon and now Aziz the amount of posters who try to dissect the story and claim a 'witch hunt', 'gray area' or 'well it wasn't rape'. Yet when it comes to people that are universally disliked it's immediate "Fuck them, lets bury them". If you opinion of situations changes based on who the person is then you need to step back and re-asses what you're reading.
This is extremely important.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,434
Oh, so awards are justification for the content of films & tv shows? Roman Polanski & Woody Allen won awards too, does that absolve their art and actions? The fact that Aziz wrote a character who pursues a married woman to the point of causing her to question her marriage and leave is really suspect.

If people keep tuning in and a group of your peers are acknowledging your accomplishments then yes? Also why you are trying to establish a pattern based on fictional works? What you write doesn't mean it's who you are.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
Yeah, that all makes sense. Can I pick your brain about something else? (Or anyone else reading this obviously.)

In a case like this, what is the function of calling out someone like Ansari by name? Is it to get public interest and thus broadcast the message further? Or do you think there's a real fear he's a predator? It could be some mix of both, I suppose.
The biggest thing is because the justice system for dealing with cases of sexual assualt/ rape is shit. Why so many women come out on social media, society also makes it hard for a victim to come forward so many times it is sadly too late for any charges
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
This idea of looking at the fiction of creators as some sort of indication of the character of the artist is crazy to me.

Obviously it's something the artist has been thinking about, but if it's because it pertains to their own sensibilities, or just a hypothetical because they believe the story should be told seems impossible to say.

Was Leon really about Besson's teen girlfriend? Was Tess about Polanski's predilections? Was Louie's relationship with Pamela based on a real relationship?

When you retrospectively know these people are rotten, it's easy to say they hid it in their work, but I think that's a dangerous road.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,376
This thread is generating a lot of reports, and it is quite easy to see why.

To all the posters wondering (genuinely and not-so-much), why a victim of someone "pushing their luck" wouldn't just remove themselves from their situation...my advice to you is to listen to the posters (and the victims themselves) that are trying to explain the intimidation factor power imbalances and often plain shock play into these moments. It's really easy to opine about what I would have done, but unless you think it's a global conspiracy, quite a lot of people have tried to explain that it's really not that easy when you're trapped in the moment.

So listen, ask questions, clarify. These are important conversations. But what isn't useful to the conversation is the constant insisting that the victim here "could have just left" because "If this were me..." And going forward posts in this thread of that nature will be receiving warnings/bannings.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,285
This idea of looking at the fiction of creators as some sort of indication of the character of the artist is crazy to me.

It's a reach yes, but in the case of Louis his stand up very much centered around his habits

My comment with regards to Aziz/Dev is that if someone is as progressive and for feminism as they indicate, perhaps they don't portray a character who presents questionable actions? The way you view and act in life can very much influence your work. I do believe Aziz stand up and his dating book have been criticized as well for the content.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
Yeah, that all makes sense. Can I pick your brain about something else? (Or anyone else reading this obviously.)

In a case like this, what is the function of calling out someone like Ansari by name? Is it to get public interest and thus broadcast the message further? Or do you think there's a real fear he's a predator? It could be some mix of both, I suppose.

The fear that he's a predator is very clear. But it's mostly disspelling his now disgusting "I'm your ally!" bravado, that's important to me. Fuck this guy's predatory shit.


This idea of looking at the fiction of creators as some sort of indication of the character of the artist is crazy to me.

Obviously it's something the artist has been thinking about, but if it's because it pertains to their own sensibilities, or just a hypothetical because they believe the story should be told seems impossible to say.

Was Leon really about Besson's teen girlfriend? Was Tess about Polanski's predilections? Was Louie's relationship with Pamela based on a real relationship?

When you retrospectively know these people are rotten, it's easy to say they hid it in their work, but I think that's a dangerous road.

He's on record with saying that Master of None is at least semi-autobographical and has a book out about dating. Of course his works are being looked at in that way.
 

We_care_a_lot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Summerside PEI
I know for me personally, if a woman were to express discomfort or unwillingness AT ANY POINT then it's over for me. If I tell her 'ok let's just chill and watch tv' then we are going to chill and watch tv. I'm not really sure what's complicated about that and it sure as hell isnt 'old fashioned'. It's called not being a piece of shit.

If you think otherwise then I'm sorry, you are a sexual predator.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,922
Finland
It's good that even cases like this come to light, where (in my opinion but I'm no judge) there is no sexual assault but is still a situation that puts huge pressure on the other person and makes them uncomfortable. People need to be more verbal when having or wanting to have sex, make sure that you both are absolutely fine with it. And when like in this situation, there's any cues that the other person is unsure, uncomfortable maybe even scared, people need to stop right away and not think that "maybe I can convince them if I just keep going" or "maybe they will let me do it anyway". Both parties should be enjoying and wanting it. I'm glad that Ansari finally got it and stopped, this story could have ended even worse with someone else in the same situation. I think there's a good learning experience here for everyone. One thing we should be doing is to help people feel safe and comfortable in saying no, of course that won't prevent all assaults but it stops situations like this from escalating further when the other person isn't somekind of predator and completely irredeemable scum.

I had my own learning experience about 15+ years ago with my then girlfriend. I was trying to convince her to oral sex. I didn't use any physical force, threats or in anyway agressive language and no touching whatsoever. This made me think it's okay to pursue it. But what I didn't understand how me constantly asking for it and not letting it go when my girlfriend already said she doesn't want to made her really uncomfortable and pressured. Not until she bursted out crying I snapped out of it and realized that what I was doing wasn't only pathetic but that it was wrong and possibly harmful, even when I wasn't trying to force myself on her. It felt horrible to realize that I was trying convince the person I loved to do something against her own will and how that made her feel.

tldr: Ansari should had been more careful and understood earlier what was going on. When in doubt, talk.
 
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Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
I know for me personally, if a woman were to express discomfort or unwillingness AT ANY POINT then it's over for me. If I tell her 'ok let's just chill and watch tv' then we are going to chill and watch tv. I'm not really sure what's complicated about that and it sure as hell isnt 'old fashioned'. It's called not being a piece of shit.

If you think otherwise then I'm sorry, you are a sexual predator.

This. He basically baited her into a false sense of security, only to start AGAIN. This shit was demented.
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,577
People have said it far better than I could I think it's important to have conversations about the power dynamics in these situations even if there was no assault. I personally don't think Aziz deserves to be completely destroyed by this and I think his response is decent. I hope he has learned that behavior is not acceptable
 

Goodstyle

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,661
Wow that Atlantic article was really something. Pure, unmitigated hatred for the accuser and the writer of the piece. Maybe even for women in general too.
 

Opto

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,546
I know what pushed his luck means thanks. Clearly him not taking no for a answer and not reading how uncomfortable she was is far more than pushing your luck it's assault
Yeah pushing your luck in the context of sex is trying something different if things are already going well. None of what happened sounded like a good time to begin with.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
It's really easy to opine about what I would have done
This is a massive problem for many people and it comes across in many forms from discussing issues like this to even reviewing TV/Films.

The amount of times i have seen people say "I would have done this, the writing on this show is terrible" when talking about a film and i think 'Its easy to think you would have calmly reacted to a monster running at you when you are sitting on a chair, watching something you know is fictional but if you were actually in the situation it would be completely different and you would either be frozen of shitting your pants'.

Same goes for things like this, its easy to say 'just say no/walk away' but if you have been brought up in a society that has trained you to fear men and saying no to them or you are in an industry that has taught you to fear rejecting certain people due to the very real possibility of it shaping your entire career/life' its a little fucking harder to do.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
It's good that even cases like this come to light, where (in my opinion but I'm no judge) there is no sexual assault but is still a situation that puts huge pressure on the other person and makes them uncomfortable. People need to be more verbal when having or wanting to have sex, make sure that you both are absolutely fine with it. And when like in this situation, there's any cues that the other person is unsure, uncomfortable maybe even scared, people need to stop right away and not think that "maybe I can convince them if I just keep going" or "maybe they will let me do it anyway". Both parties should be enjoying and wanting it. I'm glad that Ansari finally got it and stopped, this story could have ended even worse with someone else in the same situation. I think there's a good learning experience here for everyone. One thing we should be doing is to help people feel safe and comfortable in saying no, of course that won't prevent all assaults but it stops situations like this from escalating further when the other person isn't somekind of predator and completely irredeemable scum.

I had my own learning experience about 15+ years ago with my then girlfriend. I was trying to convince her to oral sex. I didn't use any physical force, threats or in anyway agressive language. This made me think it's okay to pursue it. But what I didn't understand how me constantly asking for it and not letting it go when my girlfriend already said she doesn't want to made her really uncomfortable and pressured. Not until she bursted out crying I snapped out of it and realized that what I was doing wasn't only pathetic but that it was wrong and possibly harmful, even when I wasn't trying to force myself on her. It felt horrible to realize that I was trying convince the person I loved to do something against her own will and how that made her feel.

tldr: Ansari should had been more careful and understood earlier what was going on. When in doubt, talk.

I was going to make a similar post last evening but couldn't find the appropriate wording. I think this woman could help others understand the importance of exerting themselves appropriately (if they can). I realize it's not that simple, especially in the heat of the moment. I'm hoping to teach my daughter to give direct responses so that in no uncertain terms there isn't any confusion.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
Yeah pushing your luck in the context of sex is trying something different if things are already going well. None of what happened sounded like a good time to begin with.

My mind keeps going back to that throatclaw move... How the fuck do you do that to anyone who isn't a drooling, horny mess in your hands and think it's a good idea? It's something I'd expect characters like Mc Lovin' to try....
 
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