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KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
If the game includes those Turkic tribes from the steppe, it would be historically accurate.

But do they look this awesome
I don;t think they will have big role to be honest. But there will definitely be at least mentions of them, remains of older conflicts at the last. And yeah, they armors were just incrediby cool.

What some people don't seem to be realize is that this game is petite in scale. This isn't Skyrim or Witcher 3 where you travel across multiple regions and take part in conflicts that reshape the entire continent. It's about petite fragment of countryside and very local conflict. The best way to show diversity in eastern europe of that time would be through storyline about invasions and wars and the game just lacks the budget for that scale of gameworld and storytelling. The base design was made when it was indie title,
 

RalchAC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
825
Daniel Vavra has explained multiple times that he's trying to make his game historically accurate and the location and period for his game WAS homogeneously white. There's very little debate on this. People citing "Moors" really need to read a history book (and check an Atlas). Why is this an issue for people? If I play a game set in feudal Japan, I don't expect random white people to be wandering around, just for the sake of it, because that would look silly. If it's a fantasy game, then it's different, but the whole premise of Kingdom Come: Deliverance was to make a game that was realistic.

You could add gypsies, for example. They should have been relatively normal in Bohemia in the 15th century, as far as I know. They don't need to be everywhere, but you could have some camps or settlements or nomad caravans.

He seems too adamant to say "it's all white, fuck you American Imperialism", which is kind of a thing because a lot of American people love to take for granted than their values and ideas are the same all over the world and are quick to judge when you don't fall in line with them.

But you're creating a product and selling it to them. It's a big market. Don't be an asshole. Be a bit more flexible and look for a way to be inclusive despite keeping your work historically accurate. Which could be solved as I said above.
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,388
Seoul
If the game is not pushing some racist/mysoginist or sexist themes i don't care about what Vàvra thinks, this is a 100+ people game between developers, PR, publisher and distribution, and i don't want to "boycott" this game only because Vàrva has different views from me or all the people working on this game.
I just want to play a medieval RPG.
This. Just make a good game and keep the crap out
 

nacimento

Member
Oct 27, 2017
673
Vavra has quite stupid opinions on many stuff (which are quite prevalent in post-communist Europe). The Kingdom Come issue is stupid though. Even if there were POC in Bohemia at the time, they would be extremely few and there probably aren't 100.000 NPC in the game or similar. I think it's a non-issue, although obviously Vavra's comments don't help (and he obviously doesn't want them to help).
 
Oct 28, 2017
226
The fervour with which he insists on the racial 'purity' of a giant area of Europe is sketchy as fuuuuuuuuuuck.

Please send me the link where he uses the term "purity" to describe Bohemia and its residents during that period. I'll be waiting.

See, this is what annoys me when things like this get brought up. He's been accused of being racist, sexist, nazi-appealing etc... Yet these are just buzzwords with no weight behind them, used by people who want to attack his character and hurt his game, simply because they disagree with his politics. Being a fan of Burzum's music DOESN'T mean you support Varg as a person, no more than enjoying a Roman Polanski flick means you endorse child rape. Whatever happened to just skipping over a game you don't like, rather than making it your goal to punish the creator and people who play his games, just because they enjoy something you don't? Why become so invested in something you don't intend to support in the first place?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
I honestly don't mind that much the explanation of the lack of POC in this particular game, but Vavra looks like such a piece of shit that I'm inclined to believe that he is just racist

Yup.

Are you likely to have met a black/brown/arab dude wandering around that area? Not really.

Is this dude a racist fuckwit? Looks like it.

It's not a binary choice.

This. Just make a good game and keep the crap out

"crap"

ahCiDTq.gif
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It is perfectly fine to separate games from their creators.

It is not fine to separate your financial support of someone from their views.

I have no clue why people have trouble telling these two concepts apart.

(this is obviously not addressed to the OP, who clearly shares my stance).
 

Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,809
The guy himself might be a bigot, but I don't see an issue with the decision. It just wasn't a very common occurrence and you can't fit in every group of people that might or might not have been active in that region during the time. Ultimately, the dev team decides what to include and what not.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,899
I was never going to buy this game - it's not my cup of tea regardless - but Vavra's consistent racism/sexism, Gamergate support, and trolling ensures I'll not buy anything from a team he leads in the future either. I'm not interested in the vision of a creator who seeks to only provoke those who give criticism, whether he can back it up with the history of the three-block radius he's depicting or not.

With that attitude, your going to have a real problem once ads start popping up in this forum buddy. No offense intended, really, but "buying" clean seems only easy until you follow the argument through. Are your devices made in part by foxconn? Most likely they are. Thats a company that builds nets around the side of their buildings so employees cant demonstrate against working conditions by suicide dropping from the side. 99.9% chance you own products that have components built by them. What if ads start popping up on this site soon, where the product is "clean", but the decision makers in that company invest or are into some devious stuff? Youll stop coming?

Wheres the line?

I dont disagree with your position. But i would like to illustrate that its much easier to say "you shouldnt" then not to oneself.

A product is different from a narrative work. This is one of the worst recurring arguments I've seen. The writers' biases and feelings will be consciously part of the game or creep in subconsciously. There is no such thing as an apolitical narrative work.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
Couple square kilimeters is "giant area"? :(

I was referring to this exchange:

rQhAGFI.png



If he said "my game is set in a small area and the area was so overwhelmingly white that you wouldn't realistically run into non-white people" that's one thing.

An edgy Gamergater making such a huge deal about saying that everybody was white? That's something else.
 
OP
OP
Dictator

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,931
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
AFAIR that historian failed to provide any resources that would actually point to this region in medieval times.
Now, the historical records being what they are mean that it is impossible to say there was no black dude wandering around during that time period in Bohemia. So categorically saying there couldn't be any is foolish. But if you're making historical game you ought to built it on what is known, and the rest you extrapolate from that. and there's no record of black person in bohemian countryside and realities of period mean it would be pretty much impossible for him to live regular life there. At best he might be invader or slave trader looking to kidnapp locals, but including such character would require a lot of effort and explanations, plus if lack of black people in a game about medieval eastern european countryside is riling progressives up I can't even imagine what shitstorm including one in such roles would.
For simplicity sake, I would be willing to say "yeah finding a POC would be rare in bohemia at this time period". I cannot argue a historical point as well as the referenced historian in the article. In which case...
So at this point what seems to be problematic is Vavra's stances and attitudes, not the actual game itself, which looks to be reflecting historical realisties well and has potential to be of a great value when it comes to increasing diversity of gaming medium as a whole.
This point takes precedence, and also happens to be the thread title (ohmai!). I do not think I am comfortable divorcing the game from the creator here... if I know my own creations, my world view is wholly wrapped up in them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
There is no question that Vavra is a racist and sexist. No question. Don't even try.
Having established that, it's up to you now. I think it's fine if you still want to buy the game, as long as you do it knowing that you will support this man. This does not make you a racist or sexist by proxy. I also don't think that you are now "supporting" racism or sexism. If you are okay supporting this dude, go for it. If you feel weird or bad, maybe wait or buy something else.
I don't think buying the game makes you in any way a worse person though.

Personally I have no interest in the game, not just because of Vavra, to be fair. The game would also not interest me if it wasn't made partially by a racist scumbag.
 

Killyoh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,086
Paris, France
It's the combination of explicitely not wanting to have poc in this game because of "historical accuracy" and Vavra's persona. We've had this discussion a couple of times now whether you should/can separate art from the artist.

If he was just a normal guy saying "but according to our historians, there were no poc in this region during that time" it would be something different. If a guy wearing a Burzum shirt, who's openly supporting gamergate says something like "I don't want to inject foreign cultures in my game" it's really something different. At least for me.
Yeah exactly! I can totally hear the argument that in this era, in Bohemia, they were only white people and that it is proven and accurate by serious historians. (I'll ask an historian about it though, as intellectual honesty.)

But being a asshat about it and supporting hateful groups doesn't give you a lot of credibility. Especially in these times in Poland where far-right activists (and oh boy are they powerful, 60 000 of them were marching on Warsaw recently, imagine that) are pushing a lot of history revisionism.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
If a product is good, I may buy it. Do we really have to run a background check on every involved person nowadays?
That said, I am not interested in Kingdom Come and won't buy it. But that has nothing to do with this Vavra guy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
Daniel Vavra has explained multiple times that he's trying to make his game historically accurate and the location and period for his game WAS homogeneously white. There's very little debate on this. People citing "Moors" really need to read a history book (and check an Atlas). Why is this an issue for people? If I play a game set in feudal Japan, I don't expect random white people to be wandering around, just for the sake of it, because that would look silly. If it's a fantasy game, then it's different, but the whole premise of Kingdom Come: Deliverance was to make a game that was realistic.

Witcher 3 was a fantasy game, yet Vavra still got angry when a review pointed out the lack of PoC.
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,529
Games looks interesting and I'm a big history buff so if the game is good then it's good. Not going to let one guy bring the whole team down. There are plenty of people in almost every team that have crazy views but we just don't know about it.
 

Mattchew

Banned
Jan 9, 2018
48
I'm confused, people keep saying Dan Vavra is racist but don't back it up with any proof.

He's certainly a troll from that T-shirt, but I don't see how he's a racist, can somebody enlighten me?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
I honestly don't mind that much the explanation of the lack of POC in this particular game, but Vavra looks like such a piece of shit that I'm inclined to believe that he is just racist

Yea, I wouldn't have cared as much about the representation in the game, but seeing this guy go hard Gamergate in response to some criticism is enough to skip this title.

On a related note, the guy just has pretty awful views.
 

Riptwo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
390
There are already too many entertainment products out there to fill my limited spare time, so it's a pretty easy call to not buy a game headed up by an asshole.
 
Oct 28, 2017
226
I'm confused, people keep saying Dan Vavra is racist but don't back it up with any proof.

He's certainly a troll from that T-shirt, but I don't see how he's a racist, can somebody enlighten me?

They can't back it up because if he did say anything genuinely racist, you'd already know it. He'd have been mothballed from the industry by the gaming press, publishers, Sony/Microsoft would refuse to release his work on their platforms etc... And rightly so.
 

LinLeigh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
193
But he's right. Why aren't these twitter mobs going after the developers of the games based on Romance of the Three Kingdoms and why do people only go after Kingdom Come Deliverance, the extremely rare example of a medieval RPG trying to stay true to the subject matter lacking representation because you could go your whole life without seeing a person of another skin color in that place at that time? Especially in a game taking place within an area that is only 16 square kilometers.

How many people jumping into these discussions were backers or were truly even interested in the first place? This is a niche within a niche so even assuming he gave people the representation being demanded despite being advised by his historians that there's no need for representation because there were no POC in rural Bohemia at that time, would they even have supported it? Why bother then? I think this is just another case of people trying to impose their own values and dictate something being created for an audience that doesn't include them.

Also, let's assume that he did put POC in the game. Would people have been satisfied with one or two NPCs out in the world, as that would absolutely be accurate to the time period and setting... Or would that not be enough representation?

Because the dev kept shouting about it. I read the original blog post that might the argument that yes if they wanted to the could include more diversity even when trying to be historical. And how the blog was overrun after the dev started to play the victim.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,496
With that attitude, your going to have a real problem once ads start popping up in this forum buddy. No offense intended, really, but "buying" clean seems only easy until you follow the argument through. Are your devices made in part by foxconn? Most likely they are. Thats a company that builds nets around the side of their buildings so employees cant demonstrate against working conditions by suicide dropping from the side. 99.9% chance you own products that have components built by them. What if ads start popping up on this site soon, where the product is "clean", but the decision makers in that company invest or are into some devious stuff? Youll stop coming?

Wheres the line?

I dont disagree with your position. But i would like to illustrate that its much easier to say "you shouldnt" then not to oneself.

Listen, we all know capitalism sucks. We're complicit in a lot of things we wish we weren't.

People are still going to try to vote with their wallets when they can and they're right to do so. The line for a lot of people might be one of convenience but I don't think that's arbitrary, just realistic. I think people probably should push further but "not buying a game where one of the most notable people working on it is known for being garbage" isn't exactly controversial to me.
 

Karnova

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
626
I'm confused, people keep saying Dan Vavra is racist but don't back it up with any proof.

He's certainly a troll from that T-shirt, but I don't see how he's a racist, can somebody enlighten me?
This. Like I dunno saying that there were no Brown people in Bohemia might spark a historical debate but it's not inherently racist.

He might have embraced some alt-right speak but are we going to condemn everyone who posts a Pepe meme? That would include Good Ol Wendy's. And we all know their Spicy Nuggets are a delicious deal.
 

gela94

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
180
Well this article is not very well researched it only puts attention to the points that confirm what the author wants to tell us, but gamingmagazine Gamestar wrote a pretty big article about this topic because the author of this also cites gamestar as one of the gamingpress journalists that ignore or tolerates the views. But people like to jump the bandwagon without checking facts first.
The article in gamestar also has an interview, about these accusations, with Vavra he says for example he wore this T-Shirt because this album is one of the most genre making one of hard metal and that he wore everyday a different hard metal shirt.
And also the article has an interview of a co-worker who talks about Vavra's background a bit, like his grandpa was a prisoner in a concentration camp and could escape and it's really easy and fast to call somebody a rasist without checking all sides of a story.
I never heard of this guy before and only this thread made me interested in finding out more about it because especially as a german being calles a nazi happens pretty fast almost like a kneejerk reaction.
 
Oct 28, 2017
226
Witcher 3 was a fantasy game, yet Vavra still got angry when a review pointed out the lack of PoC.

No, I believe he got angry because he felt like the games journalist was punishing the developers for not having a diverse-enough cast of characters, saying that it was CDPR's right to make the game to their own vision and being bullied to change it just to meet arbitrary diversity quotas is a bad thing.
 

Alastor3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,297
Daniel Vavra has explained multiple times that he's trying to make his game historically accurate and the location and period for his game WAS homogeneously white. There's very little debate on this. People citing "Moors" really need to read a history book (and check an Atlas). Why is this an issue for people? If I play a game set in feudal Japan, I don't expect random white people to be wandering around, just for the sake of it, because that would look silly. If it's a fantasy game, then it's different, but the whole premise of Kingdom Come: Deliverance was to make a game that was realistic.
That made me think about Nioh, do you think they choose William, one of the only english man in feudal japan, to be the protagonist because he was english??
 

haveheart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,076
Well this article is not very well researched it only puts attention to the points that confirm what the author wants to tell us, but gamingmagazine Gamestar wrote a pretty big article about this topic because the author of this also cites gamestar as one of the gamingpress journalists that ignore or tolerates the views. But people like to jump the bandwagon without checking facts first.
The article in gamestar also has an interview, about these accusations, with Vavra he says for example he wore this T-Shirt because this album is one of the most genre making one of hard metal and that he wore everyday a different hard metal shirt.
And also the article has an interview of a co-worker who talks about Vavra's background a bit, like his grandpa was a prisoner in a concentration camp and could escape and it's really easy and fast to call somebody a rasist without checking all sides of a story.
I never heard of this guy before and only this thread made me interested in finding out more about it because especially as a german being calles a nazi happens pretty fast almost like a kneejerk reaction.

Oh boy.

The article is based on 23 sources, that's probably 22 more sources than the usual article about games.

The article is also specifically about the funk report that did not have a problem with disregarding the Vavra's agenda.

Do you really want to say that this guy, having said what he said, wears a Burzum shirt w/o knowing what the band actually stands for?

And his granpa being a prisoner in a concentration camp makes him being a conservative revisionist alright?
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
No, I believe he got angry because he felt like the games journalist was punishing the developers for not having a diverse-enough cast of characters, saying that it was CDPR's right to make the game to their own vision and being bullied to change it just to meet arbitrary diversity quotas is a bad thing.

Criticizing a game is not bullying. It's criticism.
 

Reckheim

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,379
Below is the full transcript of what the two co-founders had to say. The other thread got locked so I will post what Paul had to say. I would recommend people read the whole thing before commenting.
http://www.gamestar.de/artikel/king...ktion-auf-die-rassismus-vorwuefe,3324854.html

Read the whole article, google translate is decent enough, although not perfect of course.

Vávra's statement:

The complete statement from Daniel Vavra

Right now I should actually sit down to realize together with our international team our dream of a game in which we all work together for years. Unfortunately, in the past few days, a discussion has developed that relates to my person and things that I have said or done. It's run by people I've never met in person or who've never had a chance to catch a glimpse of Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

In the past, I communicated things badly or did not think carefully enough about my comments. Especially in social media like Twitter, something - I've learned that - can be very dangerous. These comments can be taken out of the context and reassembled.

If the discussion were only about me as a private person, I would still find the allegations and the wording vicious, but would refrain from accepting and accepting it. But now we have reached a point where not only alone is I concerned, but more than 150 people who have nothing to do with my mistakes and decisions. People whose hard work and future are endangered. People who have invested hundreds of hours, crunch-time and heart and soul in a vision to create a game whose success is now jeopardized by the exaggerated discussion.

I can not accept that people who place me at the center of any discussion generally lump all the team members here at Warhorse. Or condemn our game based on their assumptions about my person or worldview.

I apologize for my lack of care and thoughtlessness in my personal communication, which has led to misunderstandings in the past. Should I hurt feelings or give the impression of propagating a kind of ideology, I apologize for that. I would also like to take this opportunity to talk about the issues that are currently in dispute.

Ethnic composition of the population of Bohemia in the Middle Ages and Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Probably the most serious allegation of the current debate revolves around the accusation that we would actively deny the presence of people of other skin color or ethnicity in our game and thus promote a racist worldview. That's wrong. I personally do not deny this fact, nor does Kingdom Come: Deliverance limit itself to any ethnic group. In the course of history, based on our knowledge of historical events, there are, besides Czechs, Germans and Jewish residents, the largest grouping in the game, the Kumans (in German also Kipchak) a Turkic tribe from the Eurasian steppe Migration and the displacement by the settlements of Hungary found its way to Bohemia at that time.

The nationality of other characters reflects what we know about Bohemia around 1403. Thanks to intensive research, this knowledge includes entire family trees and property rights. As already mentioned, the plot of Kingdom Come: Deliverance is limited to a limited area of today's Czech Republic (16qkm), an area that lies far inland from the European continent. Based on our sources, the region was mainly populated by people whose regional origin is in present-day Czech Republic, Germany, Poland, Belgium (Walloon). In addition, the sources speak of a few people of Italian origin, who worked mainly as stonemasons and architects in the big cities and a Jewish community.

Of course, the situation at the time looked more heterogeneous in some other countries. Countries whose coasts have been heavily traveled, for example, through maritime trade. The people of Bohemia were certainly also aware that there are people of other skin color or descent, not least thanks to the representation of biblical persons or other works of art, however, it is more than doubtful that under their normal living conditions in rural areas, in the KCD is authoritative, ever had direct contact.

We have already dealt extensively with historians and historical sources while preparing for the work on the game. When the first allegations were made, I reiterated and intensified this discourse to make sure that we do not portray history in any altered form.

Most of the available literature is in Czech, but here are some quotes:

German translation in Prague is the second half of the 12th century, but the Privilege notes that they have been in Prague since the time of Vratislaus II Romance settlement (Walloons, possibly Italians).

We know about no settlements of other nations in Prague. Outside of Prague it was individual Germans or Jews settled along the trade routes or small groups of foreigners in monasteries and chapters. (Klápšt ?, 2005: 354; Žemlička, 1997: 211-217).

Overwhelming majority of the male population is biologically rooted in Central Europe for about ten thousand years. It is clear that the difference between the linguistic identity and the biological identity is that it is in the middle of the world. In laymen terms, these people "came from nowhere". (Between life, death and identity: Archaeology and genetics about the origins of Southern Czechs in Netolice, Jaromír Beneš, Emanuel Žárský, History and Present ( Díjiny a sou? Asnost) 7/2011)

Politics and GamersGate

Another point raised by critics of my person is their interpretation of my political world view and behavior in the GamerGate discourse. I see myself as a liberal person, whose highest good is the maximum personal freedom of all people, as long as this freedom does not affect the rights and the integrity of other people.

I grew up in a country dominated by a communist regime after being occupied by the National Socialists. The Nazis killed over 300,000 people alone in the territory of today's Czech Republic. My grandfather was imprisoned in a labor camp from which he luckily escaped. After the war, the Communists confiscated my family's home and business and repressed our freedom for another 40 years. I am not a friend of any kind of totalitarian rule and consider the accusation that I am a Nazi or close to any ideology that even remotely goes in that direction, therefore as absurd, even personally offensive and offensive. Anyone who follows me on social networks will know that I cherish the antifascist movement of our past, and the people who follow me always remember our past or honors for our ancestors who were fighting against this regime , I do this to remember the history of our country and its fight against two unjust regimes so that my fans - especially young people - will not forget them.

My point of view to GamerGate I have stated in various interviews, among others, at Kotaku. In summary, I would like to say that for me at heart it was always about the freedom of speech and the freedom of opinion and thoughts. The freedom for artists to create art, free of political influence. For me personally and I speak only for myself, should the artwork initially always be seen free of political or ideological views, unless the art clearly and aggressively communicates racism or any form of discrediting of minorities. Such messages can, do and will not be good, not only me, but our entire team.

Today I see my comments in a different light and would like to apologize if my points of view in individual discussions should have been better communicated by me. I'm sure I should have used a better word choice or form of communication in some cases. I wanted to contribute with my view to the above-mentioned freedom of speech and my desire to make artists work without being influenced by the opinion of other people. This is my personal opinion.

The T-Shirt

That was stupid. Without ulterior motive or hidden message. I listen to a variety of music styles, but I'm a big heavy metal fan at heart. To underline my passion for this music, I had decided to wear a T-shirt every day at gamescom 2017, which is another less well-known album. One of these shirts was printed with the artwork of the Burzum album Filosofem. This album is still regarded as a milestone in the development of Scandinavian Black Metal and is widely regarded as a classic of this genre. By wearing the said T-shirt I wanted to emphasize nothing more than the artistic meaning of the album.

The album itself is apolitical, largely instrumental and deals with topics such as loneliness, darkness and loss in his texts. It is still available for sale or streamed by all major vendors, and still appears on many lists listing the best black metal albums.

Most important to me personally is that my conscience is pure. I do not support any form of extremism, on the contrary, based on my personal life experience, I strongly oppose it. I have two daughters, to whom I wish nothing but the best for the future and that they can lead their lives in freedom.

In fact, I wrote about ten percent of the quests in the game myself, and the rest was contributed by the seven other designers who, as individuals, may see and judge many things in life differently than I do. We live and work together because we are tolerant, rational people who accept other opinions and communicate in open exchange.

I know that Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a great piece of entertainment for the realization of which is a large international team. I am very grateful to be part of this team.
And co-founder of the studio, Martin Klíma:
The complete statement from Martin Klima

I would like to comment on the recent discussions surrounding the acceptance of a particular world view of my colleague Daniel Vavra and historical aspects of our game Kingdom Come: Deliverance, in which we have been working together for over six years.

I want to start playing. We are accused of malicious intent and under the influence of us - otherwise rejected - ideologies, all non-white people who may have existed in medieval Bohemia, we have removed from our presentation and replaced by blond super-Aryans. Here you have to look at different levels. To make it simple and to say it clearly: that is not true. In the game, there are people of different ethnic backgrounds, so come next to people from today's Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary and Jewish descent, the Kuman, a nomadic people from the steppes of Asia within the plot.

Now comes the argument of the critics, but what about black people? After more than four years of intensive research, it can be stated that there is no proof that there were no dark-skinned people in Bohemia and vice versa. There are many things that we can not prove, otherwise we would have to assume, for example, that lions would have lived in the forests of Bohemia - after all, the coat of arms of the ruling house is adorned with a lion. Where else could people have had this portrait?

However, in my opinion, that finding misses the core of the allegations. We do not play a game about medieval Europe, but tell a story that is located in a very small part of medieval Europe. Our game does not focus on the "big story", not on wars, kings or popes, but on the story of ordinary people. Our main character is not a Chosen, Dragon's Blood or Savior, at the end of the game he will not become king or ruler. The players are not carried away by world-changing events, they do not even travel Prague or even Rome - the power centers of the time, whose population composition was certainly massively different from that of rural Bohemia. Therefore, the question of the possibility of ethnic minority existence in the game world did not matter to us.

I would also like to comment on the person Daniel Vavra. Since this will be a very personal statement, I think it is appropriate to first say a few words about myself. My father, Jan Klima, spent his childhood in the Theresienstadt Concentration Camp, together with his parents and his brother Ivan Klima, who later became a well-known author. The rest of her family was killed in the gas chambers. Parts of my family (Viktor and Otto Synek) were executed as resistance fighters, after them today a place in Prague is named. I apologize if I'm boring with this background to my person, but I want to underline how offensive I think it is for me to be accused of having worked and spent the last six years of my life with a man whom you have assumed a closeness to racist or neo-Nazi ideas.

I have known Daniel for many years and do not necessarily agree with all his views. I disagree with his strict liberal view of the world that competition is the motor of society, on the contrary, I believe that society is and ought to be more than just the sum of individuals. And honestly, Heavy Metal does not interest me at all. But strong views on freedom, a passion for outdoor activities, paintball or listening to certain music do not make someone a Nazi.

Daniel is always quick with words, sometimes too fast and I know, sometimes he wishes for himself, he would think more about things before he pronounces them. He never shies away from communicating his views, no matter how unpopular they may be. But these characteristics also make him the important person he is for our project. Someone who does not avoid a confrontation, someone who does not settle for mediocrity or consensus on mediocrity. Daniel is a man who reminds everyone of the vision we work for and motivates people to do their best - that's exactly what you need in the development of such a gigantic project as Kingdom Come: Deliverance.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
Game built on a false premise + Nazi sympathizer

Yeah, I'll make sure to never support this guy's stuff again.
 

Karnova

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
626
See this is why I hated Gamergate, both sides viewed each other in such insane extremes that it was just absurd. It was just people creating and bashing strawmen.

Anita S. (no disrespect I dunno how to spell that name) wasn't just someone who was making videos critiquing games she was now a monster who wanted to kill all fun. And people who had a problem with how she represented things (yes those videos do have errors they are NOT perfect) were now womanhating monsters. And jesus the rumors of how Quinn manipulated a whole media bordered on the insanity of "Chemtrail" conspiracy theorists.

I know I'm kinda looking like a coward sounding like a fence sitter but truly it showed a major failure in communication especially with Twitter. It was trolls trolling trolls and nut jobs taking things way too far.
 

Reckheim

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,379
Is labeling someone a Nazi really that simple to people? That word carries a lot of weight with people, especially people that were affected by actual Nazies.
 
Oct 27, 2017
521
Being a fan of Burzum's music DOESN'T mean you support Varg as a person, no more than enjoying a Roman Polanski flick means you endorse child rape. Whatever happened to just skipping over a game you don't like, rather than making it your goal to punish the creator and people who play his games, just because they enjoy something you don't? Why become so invested in something you don't intend to support in the first place?

Thank you for your post. With everything I've read in this topic, It kinda bothered me that people insist that listening to Burzum makes you a racist, I'm a big fan of death and black metal, and I'm not a damn racist.

I still think Dan Vavra could have handled this a lot better, though. Taking a respectful way to talk to people could have avoided this mess.
 

Rodderick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,667
See this is why I hated Gamergate, both sides viewed each other in such insane extremes that it was just absurd. It was just people creating and bashing strawmen.

Anita S. (no disrespect I dunno how to spell that name) wasn't just someone who was making videos critiquing games she was now a monster who wanted to kill all fun. And people who had a problem with how she represented things (yes those videos do have errors they are NOT perfect) were now womanhating monsters. And jesus the rumors of how Quinn manipulated a whole media bordered on the insanity of "Chemtrail" conspiracy theorists.

I know I'm kinda looking like a coward sounding like a fence sitter but truly it showed a major failure in communication especially with Twitter. It was trolls trolling trolls and nut jobs taking things way too far.

I love how you characterize fucking gamergaters as reasonable people who merely disagreed with the points Anita Sarkeesian was making, and not a gang of dipshits who sent her almost daily death threats, made numerous racist caricatures of her and generally made her life a living hell. She wasn't the only woman directly or indirectly involved with games to get that kind of treatment, by the way. It's 2018, let's quit the "both sides" bullshit regarding the movement that had a huge hand in giving prominence to the alt-right.
 

UCBooties

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,311
Pennsylvania, USA
There aren't alternatives in this space when it comes to realism in an open world RPG, it's all swords and sorcery knock off Tolkien fantasy so I'm extremely glad I love Daniel Vavra (ever since Mafia 1) and find him endlessly entertaining. I've yet to see a convincing argument that POC were present in rural Bohemia during the 14th century.

Normally I'd say "let us have this one game" but we've already paid for it. Thank god for crowdfunding. Feel free to boycott it or whatever but you'll be missing out on some quality Eurojank.
Do you honestly feel that those tweets reflect well upon him?
 

FrequentFlyer

Banned
Dec 3, 2017
1,273
As I've said before, everyone can choose for themselves whether they can and want to separate art and artist. And they don't need to defend themselves for their decisions.

When it gets problematic is when you actively insult those, who do not make the same decision as you, and try to shame and brand them as "accomplice". Or when you literally go to all threads like an evangelic missionary for derailments and telling people they are doing everything wrong.

And what is even more problematic, in reference to this specific article, is when some far-left twitter activist decides to spread his fringe, extremist positions (literally calling someone who's ancestors/relatives were imprisoned and gassed by nazis a Nazi, because there are no africans in the game about medieval, DESPITE there literally being other, more likely minorities in the game like jewish communities or Kipchaks; or calling developers sexist because the game about authenticity and realism with a heavy focus on sword-fighting in a medieval bohemiam setting doesn't offer a female MC; in any real-life scenario if you told that to someone they would facepalm and/or laugh you out of the room) to an extent where they literally believe they can pressure-blackmail gaming outlets ("report about it in the political context I want or I'll call/present you as nazi/sexist-accomplice!"). There is such an incredible amount of a lack of self-awareness it hurts.

There IS obviously something to talk about, such as what Vavras deal really is (there certainly IS plenty of evidence pointing to him having maybe questionable views on some matters), how to respond in regards to the fact that there is a whole team behind it with all sorts of different views and not just the one guy, etc. But not in this incredibly american-centric, moralizingly crusading "conform 100% with us or you're a xyz-ist" way.

Is labeling someone a Nazi really that simple to people? That word carries a lot of weight with people, especially people that were affected by actual Nazies.

This is the result of this all-or-nothing, black or white sort of discussion theme that has poisoned everything in the past few years. For some people, especcially americans given their experiences with the GOP, everything right of the middle (or with some people even anything but left) = NAZI. That is not just incredibly ignorant, it is also extremely relativizing of history. But it is an easy method to eliminate any nuance, paint your "enemy" as horrible monster and just like that you're already back to the easy black vs white discussion. As I've said, Vavra certainly seems to have questionable views and probably might even be pretty far-right, but certainly not "a Nazi".
 
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Rmagnus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,923
With that attitude, your going to have a real problem once ads start popping up in this forum buddy. No offense intended, really, but "buying" clean seems only easy until you follow the argument through. Are your devices made in part by foxconn? Most likely they are. Thats a company that builds nets around the side of their buildings so employees cant demonstrate against working conditions by suicide dropping from the side. 99.9% chance you own products that have components built by them. What if ads start popping up on this site soon, where the product is "clean", but the decision makers in that company invest or are into some devious stuff? Youll stop coming?

Wheres the line?

I dont disagree with your position. But i would like to illustrate that its much easier to say "you shouldnt" then not to oneself.

The line is when I need the product to earn a living and for me a video game isn't one. My cellphone computer etc is
 
Oct 28, 2017
226
Is labeling someone a Nazi really that simple to people? That word carries a lot of weight with people, especially people that were affected by actual Nazies.

Discourse has got progressively worse, especially during and post American general election. Vavra's family was killed by Nazism (and Communism), yet people throw these words at him nonchalantly, without any idea of how offensive and untrue they are. This thread alone proves that. Shame on them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
See this is why I hated Gamergate, both sides viewed each other in such insane extremes that it was just absurd. It was just people creating and bashing strawmen.

Anita S. (no disrespect I dunno how to spell that name) wasn't just someone who was making videos critiquing games she was now a monster who wanted to kill all fun. And people who had a problem with how she represented things (yes those videos do have errors they are NOT perfect) were now womanhating monsters.
What?

Also, there were people who manged to make reasonable criticisms of her work who didn't join hate movements.
 

The Cellar Letters

lmayo
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,156
This guy definitely sounds like a terrible person. The game does look interesting though. Hope the bad buzz makes the price take a nosedive.
 

Kudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,884
I have no problem separating devs from the products, artist from the music, actors from films etc. It's purely just entertainment for me, a tool to escape life. I have no intention of bringing politics and whatever to it, but also no intention of judging people who do so, everyone can do as they want. I respect both sides, those who can just enjoy things as they are and those who can hold on to their "principles".
If I went ahead and did background check on each game and people behind it I'd soon have no games to play, I've long past accepted the fact that being a human comes with its faults.

In case of Kingdom Come, it's the one and only Medieval Simulator in many, many years, and I must admit I'm even bit hyped for it as everything we've seen so far looks quite promising. I remember starting to follow the project years ago and it looked so unbelievable I thought they'd never finish it but here we are, it's coming next month.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
Yea, I wouldn't have cared as much about the representation in the game, but seeing this guy go hard Gamergate in response to some criticism is enough to skip this title.

On a related note, the guy just has pretty awful views.

Because most people won't click on your link:


I'm not finding the Charlottesville RT, but here are other likes that show he's a big fan of alt right figures. Also some fake news about a shark in Texas lol, because of course James Woods is a dumbass.
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(Charlie Kirk was a Breitbart writer who supported Bannon and Milo and a conservative activist who founded Turning Point USA which is a conservative org that secretly works to combat campus liberalism by influencing student elections)
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Kekistan flag, the same one you find at Nazi rallies)
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I'm sure people know about Paul Joseph Watson, Gavin McInnes (contributor for Rebel media who also founded Proud Boys a white nationalist movement in Canada), Stefan Molyneux (race realist MRA alt-right figure who used to be a cult leader) the Trumps, etc. In case you don't know Jack Posobiec, he's a conspiracy theorist who went on about Pizzagate and doxxed people (thanks to Vic Berger highlighting him).



What a lovely chap.
 
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