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Soulymist

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
502
https://wccftech.com/hennig-people-ask-story-based-games/

Amy Hennig (former creative director of Naughty Dog) talks about the current state of the video game industry
I think we're in an inflection point right now. Obviously what happened with our Star Wars project didn't come out of the blue. A lot of too-dramatic articles were written about it — the death of linear story games and all that kind of stuff — but look, there is a real problem: this line we've been running up to for a lot of years, which is the rising cost of development, and the desires, or the demands even, of players in terms of hours of gameplay, fidelity, production values, additional modes, all these things. Those pressures end up very real internally. If it costs you, say, $100 million or more to make a game, how are you making that money back, and making a profit?

And the $60 price point can't change, right? There's a lot of negative press around monetization, loot boxes, games as a service, etc., but these things are trending now in the industry, especially for larger publishers, as an answer to the problem of rising development costs. Budgets keep going up, the bar keeps getting raised, and it starts making less and less sense to make these games.

There is also this trend now that, as much as people protest and say, "Why are you canceling a linear, story-based game? This is the kind of game we want," people aren't necessarily buying them. They're watching somebody else play them online.
 

lupinko

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,154
Pretty much this, I see many people on social media saying I want to support X game with Day one or whatever, but they never ever do.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
Framing her as "former ND employee" seems kind of dismissive of Hennig's role in the industry.
 

Chindogg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,222
East Lansing, MI
Yup.

Price of games have been exceptionally devalued by steam sales, PS+/XBL, etc despite people asking for more and more cinematic elements like voice acting, film writing, and incredible graphics while just watching Let's Plays on Youtube instead of buying them.

Why bother?

Edit: Yes Hennig is a huge influence on our industry, but stop being dicks because they didn't put her name in the title. It wasn't meant to devalue her importance. Sometimes this group gets too hung up in trivial shit like this.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
Thread title offends me.

She's not completely wrong but not completely right either. People do buy story-based games and last year we had quite a few that were both critical and commercial successes.
 

kami_sama

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,993
Sadly, that's what happened with Deus Ex Mankind Divided :(
We 9n era love linear games, those with an story, but the industry, and the game buyers, are going on a different direction.
It's true you can have success with those types of games, but it's much more difficult now, I think.
 

SHØGVN

Member
Oct 29, 2017
258
Amy Hennig may be onto something. Watching stuff like MOBAs and PUBG take off, can you really blame the big publishers for ditching linear single player experiences?
 

DynamiteCop!

Banned
Dec 23, 2017
129
This essentially echoes what Phil Spencer has said about GaaS, as much as people don't like it they are largely going to be the way forward unless the price of games dramatically rise with inflation. We've been paying roughly the same price for games for over 20 years. The reality is through inflation games should be $90 right now yet they're still stuck in the $50-$60 range.

To avoid a service based future they have to increase cost, and people need to not bitch about it and actually pay it. The cost of everything else around us has increased, why not games?
 

Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
Well, there's also the extent to which they're buying them when they're on notable sale, but the issue is that a game sold for $20-$30 at a retail store in only fetching $3-$10 for the publisher due to the static licensing fee and the retailer margin.

Like Dishonored 2 has actually moved 1 million copies on Steam, but around 600-700K of that was around $20 or less, and the first 300-400K certainly was well below $60 on average.
 

Calibro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,822
Belarus
Already a thread, but that's no excuse. Look at Hellblade for an example how to not burn through millions of unnecessary dollars and make money. And the game isn't even $60.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
I guess this is a complicated topic as this will turn out "players against devs". If it is true that $100 million projects are a fact (even if it less), then you have to do something to get that money back, obviously.
GaaS is here to say and we will see a lot of "creative ways" this gen and many more next gen, for sure. And yes, not every game has to be that expensive, look at Switch and its games which clearly don't see such a budget but then again you can ask why we are hungry for new, more powerful tech at all.
 

silva1991

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,489
Amy Hennig is very popular and known. Put her in the title.

People will buy story driven games games if the quality is there(with strong marketing and good release time of course)

GoW will probably sell like hotcakes.
 

dbcyber

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,397
UK
There's truth to this. My watch to play ratio is skewered towards watch. Also I don't understand why the standard price in NA must remain $60 when the price increased everywhere else this gen.
 

Giolon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,076
https://wccftech.com/hennig-people-ask-story-based-games/

Amy Hennig (former creative director of Naughty Dog) talks about the current state of the video game industry

"There is also this trend now that, as much as people protest and say, "Why are you canceling a linear, story-based game? This is the kind of game we want," people aren't necessarily buying them. They're watching somebody else play them online."

People are also watching multiplayer games like PUBG and Overwatch online. To say that nobody's buying linear games b/c they're watching them online is an oversimplification. I think they pull different types of customers. Certainly there is some segment that will watch a game online, but how can you translate that 1:1 to lost sales? It's like piracy. A viewer may never have bought the game anyway. But you might also get some people that see it and say "hey! I want to play that myself!". I know that's happened with Giant Bomb Endurance Runs.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,043
I believe it.

For my own part, I buy almost only single player games and really buy more of them than I should.
 

Chindogg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,222
East Lansing, MI
People are also watching multiplayer games like PUBG and Overwatch online. To say that nobody's buying linear games b/c they're watching them online is an oversimplification. I think they pull different types of customers. Certainly there is some segment that will watch a game online, but how can you translate that 1:1 to lost sales? It's like piracy. A viewer may never have bought the game anyway. But you might also get some people that see it and say "hey! I want to play that myself!". I know that's happened with Giant Bomb Endurance Runs.

To be fair, if you watch a linear story driven game there's not much incentive to buy the game and play it yourself. Multiplayer games will always have unlimited replayability because of their nonlinear nature.

I must be out of touch, but are there really that many people who prefer watching somebody play through a whole game on Twitch/YouTube, rather than actually play the game and experience it their self?

Not gonna lie this is how I got through the Assassins Creed games I didn't care for but wanted to understand the story.
 

Deleted member 31133

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
4,155
I must be out of touch, but are there really that many people who prefer watching somebody play through a whole game on Twitch/YouTube, rather than actually play the game and experience it their self?
 

Gerwant

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,040
Probably that's why most of Sony's single player games are open world. Even God of War is somewhat open-level and much longer than previous games, because it's hard to sell SP only 8 hour game for 60$ these days.
 

Mr G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
219
Netherlands
Funny that they blame people streaming games while they were already selling season passes and multiplayer focused games (fifa, cod etc) before streaming was a thing.
 

Neural

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,820
Italy
Man, we're on ResetEra. Anyone knows who Amy Hennig is, you don't need to label her as a random ex-ND employee. Especially why she's talking about her SW project here, not something she did at ND.

I must be out of touch, but are there really that many people who prefer watching somebody play through a whole game on Twitch/YouTube, rather than actually play the game and experience it their self?
Absolutely. It's entertainment, like watching football/basketball instead of going out and play yourself. Obviously, video games are less physically demanding than sports, but people like to watch others do these things. My 11yo kid plays a lot of Minecraft and R6 Siege, and also loves watching at YouTubers playing those same games. Hell, we even did it 30 years ago when we went to the arcades and stopped watching others play games we liked.
 

MrHeisenbird

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
751
I mean we DO buy them. There is still a huge market for single player games.

What has she worked on recently anyway?
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,943
Unfortunately seems only really Naughty Dog have consistent success with their big budget linear games nowadays and even they are sightly moving away from strictly linear stuff. Seems it's a big gamble for everyone else.
 

kpaadet

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,741
Already a thread, but that's no excuse. Look at Hellblade for an example how to not burn through millions of unnecessary dollars and make money. And the game isn't even $60.
The game have just now turned profitable iirc, not something that would be acceptable for any major publisher.
 

Lyriell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
435
I don't understand why we can't increase the price of games? Some budget games can be cheaper, normal games $60 and your big budget games say $80-90.

I'd take that over losing single player games with high production costs.

Or, you know.... don't devalue your game so much. Nintendo knows what is up by barley ever discounting stuff.
 

Drencrom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,645
SWE
Former ND-employee? Why not say Amy Hennig in title, also the last studio she worked at was Visceral Games.
 

Giolon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,076
To be fair, if you watch a linear story driven game there's not much incentive to buy the game and play it yourself. Multiplayer games will always have unlimited replayability because of their nonlinear nature.

Not gonna lie this is how I got through the Assassins Creed games I didn't care for but wanted to understand the story.
Anecdotal evidence: Giant Bomb Endurance Runs. Many people have testified to buying P4 so they could play it for themselves (and in fairness many have said they didn't play it because they watched it, but many of them in turn bought P5 because they got into the series via GBER of P4.)

There is often something different to the experience when watching someone play a game vs playing it yourself.
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,750
I must be out of touch, but are there really that many people who prefer watching somebody play through a whole game on Twitch/YouTube, rather than actually play the game and experience it their self?
Sure, watching one of the personalities you like playing through a game, while you interact with said personality and other followers creates a mood you don't get playing through a game on your own. I've watched some games being played on Twitch, most recently the Literature Club thing. Aimbotcalvin got a couple of his friends to voice each character and played through it in one sitting, it was wonderful.

On-topic: I can see linear, story-driven games being in a rough patch. Can't make the games too long, can't shorten them and it's mostly a one runthrough kinda thing. I don't think you can blame people watching the games online for not buying them though, that only seems like a small segment.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
I mean, I guess I'm part of the problem? Given how quick games devalue, no way in hell I'm spending 60-70EUR for a 6-8 hours single player game anymore, knowing that in a month I can buy it for half of that or even less if I wait longer. On the other hand, an open world game will likely give me dozens of hours of fun, so I can justify the investment easier. Even better with multiplayer games where I'm 100% sure I'll be engaged for dozens/hundreds of hours, thus making the initial investment seem like peanuts compared to the amount of fun I've got. I loved games like Alan Wake and Remember Me last-gen, paid the full price for them and I don't regret it per se, but to me the days of paying 70EUR for a 6 hours game are gone.
 

BigTaffy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
203
San Francisco
Pretty much this, I see many people on social media saying I want to support X game with Day one or whatever, but they never ever do.

I'd be more inclined to if they didn't all release at the same time.

Last spring I wanted to support Yakuza, Persona, Horizon, Nier, and Resident Evil 7. Problem was that they all released within 3 months of each other. There's just not enough time in my life to play them all.

This isn't just a problem aimed at single player games though. I'd have the same problem with multiplayer games.
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,283
Odd. From my experience, games that are streamed by popular streamers or played by popular youtubers almost instantly jump up on the sales charts. (At least on Steam this seems to be the case)
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,943
I don't understand why we can't increase the price of games? Some budget games can be cheaper, normal games $60 and your big budget games say $80-90.

I'd take that over losing single player games with high production costs.

Or, you know.... don't devalue your game so much. Nintendo knows what is up by barley ever discounting stuff.
They pretty much have increased the price with all the editions most games have. Increasing the base price will just turn more people to wait for a sale and pretty much everyone (but Nintendo) have shown they'll quickly put their game on sale.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,125
It's true.

People will say that they want linear SP games but at the same time will look for every reason to not buy the game.

"It's too long"
"It's too short"
"It's too buggy"
"It's not pretty enough"
"It isn't worth $60 to me"
"It's too formulaic"
"It's too linear"
"There's too much bloat"

When at the same time people are willing to overlook plenty of those details for multiplayer games.

For a publisher right now, when looking at what you can work on, there's basically no encitive to make a single player games.

It's high risk, low reward.
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,750
I don't understand why we can't increase the price of games? Some budget games can be cheaper, normal games $60 and your big budget games say $80-90.

I'd take that over losing single player games with high production costs.
In a world where we have 4 steam sales a year, new year sales, winter sales, summer sales etc. on all platforms, further increasing the price of your games seems like shooting yourselves in the foot. The industry already causes most people to frown upon a $60 price point, 80-90 for a non-special edition will not sale I feel.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
Is what Ninja Theory was able to do with Hellblade a counter-point to this that isn't just talk? I mean, a 30-dollar price-point for a SP only, linear but AA quality experience for a budget of half the low-end AAA cost. It was well-received critically and (I think) commercially has earned everything back and is now bringing in reasonable profit for NT.

It's just a data point, but I feel like it's a pretty big one. The AAA SP game may be in danger, but is the AA and A market getting underexposed by big companies?
 

takriel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,221
I gotta say, thank God for Nintendo and Sony first party titles. I hope they will never stop making single player focused games without greedy monetization techniques.

Especially Nintendo is in a good place because of their gameplay first approach. They don't necessarily need to spend a huge amount of money on graphical fidelity etc.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,840
Wolfenstein 2 launched at the end of October. Base game is €60 on Steam (around €50 on retail) and the season pass is €25.

One month later I got the Digital Deluxe version for €30 which has the game and the season pass. No DLC was even released yet at that time.

Publishers are actively making it not worth buying their games at launch, so there will be more people waiting for sales.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,125
Is what Ninja Theory was able to do with Hellblade a counter-point to this that isn't just talk? I mean, a 30-dollar price-point for a SP only, linear but AA quality experience for a budget of half the low-end AAA cost. It was well-received critically and (I think) commercially has earned everything back and is now bringing in reasonable profit for NT.

It's just a data point, but I feel like it's a pretty big one. The AAA SP game may be in danger, but is the AA and A market getting underexposed by big companies?

Look at how much time Ninja Theory needed to just break even and look at their experiences and the actual quality of the game.

Why would a studio want to risk that? I personally only play SP games (except sports games and Nintendo games) but if I'm running a business, I would choose the option most likely to ensure the viability of the studio. Right now SP games aren't cutting it.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Already a thread, but that's no excuse. Look at Hellblade for an example how to not burn through millions of unnecessary dollars and make money. And the game isn't even $60.
and how much net profit did Hellblade make?

anywhere close to PUBG, Overwatch, MOBAs, games like that?

it's not enough to just make any amount of money. the total amount matters in comparison to other games
 

Angie

Best Avatar Thread Ever!
Member
Nov 20, 2017
39,333
Kingdom of Corona
How many linear story-based game were released last year?
I can only recall Hellblade, and for what I read that game was a success.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
There is an obsession with the blockbuster game on PS4 (and I assume Xbox), but to some extent it's reinforced by the platform. Even going to the PSN store you can see that downloadable titles are given their own little 'digital games' section as if it's a second class purchase. Everything is directing people towards the biggest and longest and shiniest games. Yes that's what people want, but it's partly fuelled by what they're presented with.

On Switch everything is treated equally on the store front, and directs give as much attention to the indies as the AAA games (mostly). Devs are selling more on Switch than many other platforms, and the console is being described as an opportunity for AA. Why are the Switch fans finding different games appealing than PS4 fans. They're mostly the same people.

(I'm not just fanboying the Switch, I still play my PS4 way more. It's just a problem I've noticed).