But that's the thing, it kind of DOES fetishize all those things, at least among first appearances. Mami's extravagant transformation, the friendship between Madoka and Sayaka, the designs being very fashionable, the mentor figure and the air of camaraderie their interactions exude, and even the rival. Then episode 3 happens and at least some of that gets destroyed. Things get worse as it goes on, with the facade of camaraderie slowly breaking down as we find out Sayaka's jealousy and hatred toward Hitomi becomes a bigger driving force than friendship and other characters are brought to the brink of despair if they haven't already experienced it in Homura's case.
You don't have to think it's good and you can certainly see it as edgy, but it definitely at least attempted to subvert standard tropes of the genre. If you believe it failed, well we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Yeah, I suppose so.
What I'm saying is lifting the structure of one genre and giving it the skin of another doesn't scream "subversion" to me. It's an abnormal combination, but that's really all. It's like saying the multitude of series out there that turn historical figures into little girls are subversions.
It depends on the context in which they're presented, but in general yes, changing them to kids or changing them to women does tend to subvert them in some way. Genders come with presuppositional thinking attached to them, and changing genders can drastically change how one reacts to what they're consuming. Changing mood or tone doesn't subvert a genre, it just presents the genre in a different space. Like, if all the Mahou Shoujo characters in a series suddenly became obsessed with philosophy, you aren't subverting mahou shoujo if you're still following the same beats of a magical girl show. You're just presenting it in a different space.
I agree, we need more hot-blooded female characters and Hibiki is a damn good one. Her and Nono are probably my two favorites ever.
That being said, there's no shortage of them in manga.
I don't really have a ton of familiarity with manga so I can't really speak to this (I've read a few, but generally I just prefer reading books if I'm going to read something).
Everything you're describing is standard battle shounen.
And non-standard setting =/= subversive because the subversive content needs to go with it. Like, would you call Cute High Earth Defense Club Love! a subversion because it places boys in a magical girl setting? I wouldn't because it's still a magical girl show, just with boys as the protagonist.
If they are still playing to the same beats as a magical girl show, then no, probably not. But if they are exploring magical girls through a male lens then yes, it's probably a subversion of the genre.
Symphogear is definitely subversive because it brings questions of what is strength, camaraderie, hope, etc. (the common beats of mahou shoujo), and presents these ideas as ongoing projects. In a typical mahou shoujo there are definite ends and beginnings to various story beats, but Symphogear doesn't present these problems as ending. Even as one problem is "solved" it doesn't necessarily mean the world is hunky dory. There is still real suffering and the characters have to see that, internalize it, and then react to it. Those beats help to bring the characters to a place where they can evolve, where they can be aware that they by themselves cannot always change the world, and that "changing the world" can be as big as the world itself or as small as a single individual life. It can mean helping your enemies, who are often deeply troubled. It can mean forgiving others for their hatred, even if they can't forgive you. Symphogear is a subversion in that it presents problems without solutions, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight to try and improve the state of those problems. It's very easy to give up in a situation like that, and it's fulfilling to see that there are people willing to fight against that, even if it may not always provide the "perfect" or "best" solution. It's a subversion in the sense that while regular mahou shoujo is about beating the threat (as with most superhero shows), Symphogear is about continuously growing to meet problems as you encounter them. Sometimes this appears in mahou shoujo by being represented as a power-up when the character realizes something. While there are power-ups throughout Symphogear the personalities typically evolve through their interaction with other people, and technology factors into the increased power of their suits as much as increased personal ability and understanding (Linker is a big plot point in AXZ). It is external factors, not internal ones, that are typically causing the characters to change (which again, is much more human than the oft-revelatory nature of so many transformations in mahou shoujo). And, perhaps most importantly, not every single personal trait is in some way related to the power of the suit (i.e., every time one of the characters change does not necessarily mean their suit is suddenly going to become ten times more powerful - in fact, it's quite frequent that nothing happens at all with regards to their combat ability). It is so painfully common for those moments of personal growth to always be tied in some way to mahou shoujo superpowers. Symphogear basically presents characters as also just being characters. They are not defined by their powers; rather, their powers are an extension of who they are.
I mean, suffering can be compelling. The Danganronpa series for example prides itself on despair, and it's a fascinating mystery throughout thanks to that. IMO Madoka is no different, it gives us emotional high points augmented by a sense of hopelessness and the anticipation on how the characters react to it. Finding out the true nature of being a magical girl, Sayaka's drama with Hitomi, Kyubey's constant Faustian nudging; for many it all melded together into something legitimately interesting.
I find Danganronpa and the whole death game genre (trope? theme?) in general, from The Hunger Games to Ousama Game, to generally be rather perverse in their revelry of human suffering. Similarly, I thought Madoka was just a series that, aside from being beautifully animated, was trying way too hard to push a grim dark narrative without fully establishing the world (to be honest, much like most ultra-violent shows I watch, I simply found it to be absurd - with no human message to relate to, what is left in a show so disconnected from reality?). I'm much more interested in Cthulu-esque horror to begin with, where the world is off in much subtler ways. I generally find horror that spends the lion's share of its time being fascinated with suffering, death or gore as simply gross. I still have to wrack my brain as to how that's interesting in a way that's not also perverse.
Though I mean, if that's what it is - perverse fascination - then all I can say is that I can't really relate.
