Oct 25, 2017
1,697
Devil Halton's Trap
The interview's part of GOG's JRPG Days sale.

Last week we released Zwei: The Arges Adventure, and it feels like you had a great time working on it. Can you tell us more about your work on the game and how you approach localizing its brand of humor?

Tom: I've been talking about this quite a bit over on our Tumblr(/shamelessplug), but that's mostly because I can't shut up about this game! I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it's the most fun I've ever had translating anything, owed entirely to the wonderful Japanese writing from Falcom. You can tell the devs just let loose here, casting away all their inhibitions and just writing whatever the hell they wanted, and the end result is a beautiful cacophony of bad puns, blunt proclamations, pure snark, and fourth-wall-breaking.

Ys VIII is the first game in the series that you did not publish – and which prompted an official apology for the localization (which is getting completely redone for the PC release). What's your take on what happened there, and what can developers do to avoid those mistakes in the future?

Ken: Based on the very active release schedule that publisher had at the time, one can only guess that the localization team wasn't given the time and resources needed as they were forced to meet a hard deadline for most likely financial reasons (since September is the end of a fiscal quarter for most companies). That was likely compounded by them shipping a total of four titles within four weeks of each other, one of which was the absolute localization beast Danganronpa V3, which would have required tons of their resources and have taken priority as it's been one of their top-selling franchises for years.

The localization team over there is capable of putting out good work if given the proper support, as I'm sure they will prove once the new localization patch is released. This is true of most teams and projects, but sometimes harsh financial realities don't afford people that luxury, so I'm not really sure there's an easy answer on how to fix it when time and/or budgetary constraints get in the way of passionate people trying to do their jobs to the best of their abilities.

Finally, have you thought about expanding into other languages (i.e. Chinese, French, Russian, German, Polish)? After all, jRPGs have a dedicated audience all over the world.

Ken: We would like to localize into as many languages as possible in addition to English, especially for our PC releases which are worldwide, but the large amount of text in JRPGs can make that quite challenging.

It's definitely something we're looking into, but we can't make any promises just yet.


You can also check out the first part of the interview here, talking about censorship woes and Japanese naming conventions. It's largely a repeat of what Tom @ XSEED's said for years now, and I just don't find it that interesting to bring up at this point.
 

Deleted member 2585

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,133
Seems like a very safe (and probably overall correct) statement about Ys VIII. Doesn't touch on the PC situation, though.

As a result, Pokkle's got some bad jokes that I imagine people are going to screencap and groan about for a long time, but Pipiro's just… got some of the best lines in the entire game, without question. Pipiro is basically everyone's spirit animal, saying what we're all thinking – but crucially, even when she's saying horribly mean things, she's never mean-SPIRITED about it.

I got Zwei AA, but I need to start it. Pipiro in Zwei II was the best.
 

Chacranajxy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
905
Yeah, basically just a comment on the realities of localizing games as a business. It's not like they're going to jump in there and roast NIS for shitting up the PC port beyond belief, even though we all know they shitted up the PC port beyond belief.
 

Lazrgatr

Banned
Nov 15, 2017
463
I should probably feel bad that work on V3 compromised YsVIII but at the same time I really don't. I just feel bad that NISA snatched the game away from people who could have done a far better job in every aspect and that for some reason Falcom still wants to continue working with them.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
I should probably feel bad that work on V3 compromised YsVIII but at the same time I really don't. I just feel bad that NISA snatched the game away from people who could have done a far better job in every aspect and that for some reason Falcom still wants to continue working with them.
Its basic business, I guess. NISA have more pull(and more marketing). They're actually marketing Silver Case 25W, which I appreciate.
 

Deleted member 2585

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,133
OP pointed me to another interview at the end of last year where XSEED was talking more about localizing in other languages.

http://xseedgames.tumblr.com/post/168803417750/2017-end-of-the-year-qa-extravaganza-blog-2

Question: If possible, would you please consider researching and localizing classic Korean-made PC xRPGs? & Do you have any interest in pursuing the localization of any of the large, beautiful Chinese RPGs that have been hitting Steam? Or are you focused exclusively on Japanese titles? - @DragEnRegalia & @TheDanaAddams
Brittany: The main reason we focus on JP > EN is because we're mainly an office of Japanese to English speakers, and we can verify the quality. We haven't completely ruled out the idea of other languages in the future, but we can't do anything to guarantee these games will be accurate yet. If we hired a person to localize games into a specific language, there's no checks-and-balances system in place for us to know we're investing in a project people will be happy to play because it's the best quality we can offer. Personally, I would hesitate to expand outside of JP > EN localization regularly until we've gained more experience as a company.

We've done a few instances of EN > FIGS, but since our games usually are very text heavy, even this is difficult. I would want to experiment with smaller games first. Hopefully, there will come a time when we can expand beyond JP > EN on a regular basis, since I've noticed some badass-looking games outside of the EN/JP languages. I also like the Korean developer Cheritz, who did Mystic Messenger. Jaehee will always be the love of my life.

Ken: We are definitely looking to expand where we source games from in the future and not just limiting ourselves to Japan. Definitely lots of good stuff coming out of China, Korea, and other parts of Southeast Asia these days, and we're big fans of Western indie games too. You will be seeing a lot more variety of games from us in the future, but that doesn't mean that we'll be giving up on our staple of games from Japan - they will be in addition to those.

Nick: I figured I'd field these not because I have any special ability to get XSEED to license a game (we're all free to suggest games for consideration, which is pretty cool), but because prior to working at XSEED, I actually did localization for Korean and Chinese F2P MMOs.

There's a lot of game dev talent in places like China, Korea, and Taiwan that we in the west are only tangentially aware of due to their games market being significantly different from ours. To generalize a bit, outside of Japan, Asia doesn't have a strong lineage of console development, as existing consoles haven't been widely available in most of those countries. Rather, PCs are where people in Asia play their games – online games in particular, with net cafes being popular places to log in and play.

One of the first bits of localization work I ever did in my career was for the F2P MMO Dream of Mirror Online, for which I handled seasonal quests and ongoing localization (the base game had already been localized before I got there). The developer of that game, Softstar, has a cool, long-running Wuxia fantasy RPG series in China known as Xuan Yuan Jian, one installment of which is available on Steam right now. Wouldn't it be cool to release an anime-style wuxia adventure RPG here? As a fan of drama, martial arts, and sweet swordfights, it would be pretty rad.

Personally, I'm totally up for dipping our toes into games like this as a company, but there are some extra challenges to taking on Chinese or Korean games that we haven't had to contend with during our work on Japanese titles.

Perhaps most important is establishing audience interest in these titles. Even if we find cool Chinese or Korean games (and I'm sure we could), if we don't sense a market demand for those games, it doesn't make sense to expend the effort to publish them. That's not a statement on their quality; it's an issue of market awareness. Japanese gaming has an advantage for us, in a sense, in that it's been pervasive in Western culture long enough that the names, language, and even history of Japan seem less strange and foreign to Westerners now than they were 20-30 years ago. We've come to have a taste for Japanese games and culture, one could say. That sort of natural predilection doesn't currently exist for games from elsewhere in Asia. I think that a good game's quality will be self-evident enough that it can become well known, but it would take considerably more work to make people aware of and interested in a cool game from China, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, or elsewhere than it would if that game were from Japan. And given that XSEED's marketing and advertising resources are admittedly smaller than we wish they were, licensing and localizing a cool Asian game for a Steam release could prove difficult if we couldn't connect the game with enough of an audience that would appreciate it. Before you nay-say me, look around at the amount of Chinese or Korean games currently available in the Western market that aren't MMOs or mobile games. It's…not very many, is it?

Not to say we're not interested, of course! There's a huge amount of potential in games from Asian developers, and an ocean of possibilities to explore. But I think, before that happens, we have to either find a game we think would be a pretty sure thing our fans would enjoy, or see that there's a demand here for these games. If you're interested in seeing XSEED work on Chinese or Korean games, do feel free to write us, especially if you have suggestions of titles you think are particularly worth checking out or that you think are very "on-brand" for XSEED.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
I see Tom's stance on censorship hasn't changed. Happy about that even if he's slightly more hardline than I am on it.

Tom: As a company, I think it's definitely made us stop and take stock of a game's content a lot earlier in the process than ever before, so we know well in advance whether there will be any potentially problematic content, and can prepare ourselves to deal with that content as production ramps up.

For me specifically, it's been kind of an inner struggle, as I think a lot of people are aware that I have a personal zero-tolerance policy for censorship in video games, along with a fairly broad definition of what constitutes censorship (for me, it consists of any content changes made not out of legal or contractual necessity, but solely in an attempt to avoid offending or upsetting members of the target audience). Despite this, I do fully understand that from a business standpoint – and even from a moral standpoint – it's always best to avoid upsetting your fans, because obviously, an upset fan is not going to remain a fan for very long, and signing off on upsetting or troublesome language or imagery is never something anyone wants to do!

The problem I have, though, is that I truly do consider video games – ALL video games – to be art, and just as it wouldn't feel right to me if someone painted over offensive material in a painting, edited out offensive material in a book, or cut offensive material from a film, I don't want to see anyone (least of all us) editing out offensive material in games. My thought is, if it's that offensive, then we probably shouldn't be releasing the game at all – though that's obviously not always a realistic option.
Recently, however, with all the news that's come out about systemic sexual harassment and abuse in Hollywood and elsewhere, as well as the issues being faced by the LGBTQ community in this modern political climate, it's become much harder to justify maintaining a zero-tolerance approach – and with a lot of Japanese games starting to really push the boundaries of "good taste" more and more, the looming threat of censorship has become much larger and more imposing than ever, and certainly more of a beast to fight on multiple levels. And it's really not a battle I WANT to fight – I'd rather just localize games that everybody can enjoy!

I still hold firm in my belief, however, that if we want video games to be classified as an art form on par with books, films, and paintings, we need to maintain zero tolerance for censorship in localization, no matter how offensive the content we're localizing may be. And if there's any positive to be gained by doing so, it's that the presence of offensive content in localized titles will spark much-needed discussion about those topics, and hopefully lead to a dialogue on the state of the industry in Japan, possibly even resulting in creators being a little more cognizant of people outside their tight-knit circle of acquaintances when designing new titles from here on out.

But for the immediate future, I believe content alteration will occur a little more often in the West than it has before (hopefully not by us, but regrettably, that isn't outside the realm of possibility!), while little else will change for the industry overseas. My solace lies in the thought that we'll just keep getting more games like the Zwei titles to work on: superb examples of classic action JRPG design with content that's often snarky and a little mischievous, but never crosses the line into offensive territory, and thus isn't at any risk of being toned down in localization. Those remain a joy to work on, and the more games of that sort I'm given, the less worried I'll be about censorship moving forward.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
I see Tom's stance on censorship hasn't changed. Happy about that even if he's slightly more hardline than I am on it.
It's kinda weird, though, since he's indicating that videogame censorship is more likely due to Me Too and Trump-inflicted LGBT issues. I think he's implying that he thinks the ESRB will take a harder line towards sexual content, particularly stuff that approaches the upper boundary of the M rating (e.g. Senran Kagura).

I can see the logic, but I've also been around videogames long enough to know that what works in theory won't necessarily materialise in practice. In this case, I expect pQube will release Gal Gun 2 and Omega Labyrinth Z physically (and will therefore be subject to the full ESRB rating process) before the next physical Senran game, and so we'll have a particularly good idea whether this concern holds water by then. Certainly, if Omega Labyrinth Z can get past the ESRB without them demanding cuts, then I would expect all future Senran games would have no problem.
 

LordGorchnik

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,354
I would love to truly see some market research on how many "fans" one truly loses from video game censorship when it comes to sales. I can name a few off the top of my head that may have been impacted but I would really truly love to see some hard concrete field data out there where someone went out and asked people why they didn't purchase said game.

Never will happen though as the cost and time far outweigh the data that would probably be returned.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
It's kinda weird, though, since he's indicating that videogame censorship is more likely due to Me Too and Trump-inflicted LGBT issues. I think he's implying that he thinks the ESRB will take a harder line towards sexual content, particularly stuff that approaches the upper boundary of the M rating (e.g. Senran Kagura).

Oh I'm just talking about the stance itself, not necessarily the external factors that he haphazardly connects to said stance.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
I would love to truly see some market research on how many "fans" one truly loses from video game censorship when it comes to sales. I can name a few off the top of my head that may have been impacted but I would really truly love to see some hard concrete field data out there where someone went out and asked people why they didn't purchase said game.

Never will happen though as the cost and time far outweigh the data that would probably be returned.
The biggest problem with such a study is that in 99% cases, the cuts are demanded by the ESRB, and the localizer basically has no say in this case. Like, pretty much the only examples of cuts in the last decade or so that weren't required by the ESRB is by Nintendo Treehouse, and it's a policy that appears to have been binned (if Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is anything to go by).
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,205
I would love to truly see some market research on how many "fans" one truly loses from video game censorship when it comes to sales. I can name a few off the top of my head that may have been impacted but I would really truly love to see some hard concrete field data out there where someone went out and asked people why they didn't purchase said game.
He's referring to the content, not the alteration ("censorship") of the content.

So it's the number of people who would be driven off by having blatantly homophobic or sexist content. My opinion would be that you can't truly drive off somebody who wants that sort of content, as they'll just return for the next game where that type of localization consideration isn't an issue (though they'll continue to whine about it, of course). But good luck growing your market if that's all you cater to.

XSEED has been a little lucky in that regard for the half of their portfolio that isn't those sorts of games, but even Trails has had problematic elements starting with the very first game (though in its case it's more of the casual sort that is pretty inescapable with a lot Japanese media).
 

Dineren

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,509
Was Tom the one who had himself removed from the credits of a game because he thought there was censorship when there actually wasn't?
 
OP
OP
Pasokon Deacon
Oct 25, 2017
1,697
Devil Halton's Trap
Was Tom the one who had himself removed from the credits of a game because he thought there was censorship when there actually wasn't?
Yes, due to his (IMO hypocritical) issues during the Akiba's Beat localization. However, guess who's name is back in the credits...

EwMbb4t.jpg
I'm guessing he retracted that decision later on since his name's back in the company credits. And that's fine by me since he continues to do very solid and important work for the company, let alone for the Falcom fandom.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Was Tom the one who had himself removed from the credits of a game because he thought there was censorship when there actually wasn't?

Yes, over a KKK thing. That was one of the times I thought he was in the wrong. I didn't really see it as a grey area because it was a lost in translation joke, not an example of cultural insensitivity.
 

2+2=5

Member
Oct 29, 2017
971
Damn the title made me think that Ys VIII bombed, luckily it refers to localization problems.
 

Wein Cruz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,772
Was Tom the one who had himself removed from the credits of a game because he thought there was censorship when there actually wasn't?

https://kotaku.com/localizer-asks-to-be-removed-from-games-credits-after-d-1794678587

When I first requested to have my name removed from the credits, I actually didn’t know we’d never specifically asked Acquire to change this – I assumed we had. If I’d known that then, I might not have ever suggested removing my name from the credits. Then again, I still might’ve! And either way, because this is such a gray area, I don’t entirely regret my request. If nothing else, it’s bringing censorship back into public discussion, and I think that’s important, since I feel it’s a problem we – as an industry – really need to talk about. In my own backwards, awkward way, I’m hoping I’ve opened the topic wide enough that maybe some good will come of this in the future. -Tom

I really dislike tom and this interview reinforces that. You can tell he is so reluctant to change.
 

Eila

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,969
Localize Arcturus and Ys II Special. I'm sure they'll sell as many copies as Zwei/Xanadu Next.
:(
 
OP
OP
Pasokon Deacon
Oct 25, 2017
1,697
Devil Halton's Trap
Localize Arcturus and Ys II Special. I'm sure they'll sell as many copies as Zwei/Xanadu Next.
:(
Ys II Special likely isn't happening unless someone remakes it for modern x86 Windows. XSEED hasn't shown any sign of using DOSBox for old games yet, but this would be their chance if they can find a programmer willing to hack the script into the game without extra effort.

Arcturus could maybe sell better than Xananext numbers, assuming XSEED markets it hard as the long-lost Korean precursor to Trails in the Sky (which, in a few key ways, it is!). The game recently got an English fan translation based on Falcom's Korean-to-Japanese localization, but there's no official way to buy the game anymore and it could really use a proper Korean-to-English localization.
 

Eila

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,969
Ys II Special likely isn't happening unless someone remakes it for modern x86 Windows. XSEED hasn't shown any sign of using DOSBox for old games yet, but this would be their chance if they can find a programmer willing to hack the script into the game without extra effort.

Arcturus could maybe sell better than Xananext numbers, assuming XSEED markets it hard as the long-lost Korean precursor to Trails in the Sky (which, in a few key ways, it is!). The game recently got an English fan translation based on Falcom's Korean-to-Japanese localization, but there's no official way to buy the game anymore and it could really use a proper Korean-to-English localization.
landscape-1498634051-thierry-henry-jamie-carragher-sky.gif

I had no idea Arcturus fan TL was a thing. Well, I thought it was one of those fan TLs that have been stalled for a decade.
Will have to check it out. Love the 2.5D style of Ragnarok/Trails series. Even though the game is probably rough.
 
OP
OP
Pasokon Deacon
Oct 25, 2017
1,697
Devil Halton's Trap
I had no idea Arcturus fan TL was a thing. Well, I thought it was one of those fan TLs that have been stalled for a decade.
Will have to check it out. Love the 2.5D style of Ragnarok/Trails series. Even though the game is probably rough.
Here's the release thread. The patch is all done except for some images which need editing. Helly's doing great work yet again (I'm especially grateful for him and MrRichard999 making patches for the Lunatic Dawn series). Looks like some people are already playing through the game and discussing it, too, which is important.
 
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LordGorchnik

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,354
I really dislike tom and this interview reinforces that. You can tell he is so reluctant to change.

There are many who find it difficult to fully side with his "no censorship" stance. If the article I posted is any indication though it appears he can at least see when there are issues with certain sexual overtones, LGBT, and other hate speeches not being acceptable and that's definitely a good start.
 

wyrdwad

Member
Nov 2, 2017
80
There are many who find it difficult to fully side with his "no censorship" stance. If the article I posted is any indication though it appears he can at least see when there are issues with certain sexual overtones, LGBT, and other hate speeches not being acceptable and that's definitely a good start.

That's part of why I wanted to field that question in the GOG interview. People have jumped to a lot of conclusions about me (particularly since the Akiba's Beat issue noted above), assuming I'm a Gamergater or a Trumper or what-not because of the content I've fought to keep intact over the years (I am neither of those things, BTW!), and I wanted to make it crystal clear that my defense of this content should not ever constitute my APPROVAL of it unless I very specifically state as such. My stance on censorship is that it's never appropriate, but not because I actually want to SEE the content I'm defending. I'm just as taken aback by a lot of it as the rest of you, and would really rather not have anything to do with it, given the choice.

The difference is, I believe it is not in our place to alter artistic works in the name of cultural morality, and thus feel it is my duty as a localizer to preserve the original work as accurately as possible -- "warts and all," as it were. If you're not changing a work for legal reasons, or to aid in its comprehension, then I feel you devalue it as a work of art by changing it at all. And there are no exceptions to this, in my mind, because there really can't be: once you justify changing one piece of content in someone else's artistic work, you open the floodgates. The original creator's intent begins to lose all relevance.

And while I seem to have earned some degree of ire and concern from the ANTI-censorship crowd as a result of this GOG interview (much to my surprise and confusion!), I do nonetheless hope it was successful in communicating to those of you who've always been turned off by me that I'm not the monster you think I am! I'm just a guy who has really idealistic views about video games as art, and can't bring myself to compromise those views, as a matter of principle.

If you dislike me for this, so be it. But I hope that even if you'll never agree with me (general you, not you specifically, LordGorchnik), you can at least understand and respect my point of view. That's really all I can ask for, and is the only thing I seek, ultimately.

-Tom
 

Negator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
541
Hey Tom! Glad to see you on Era. I fully agree with your stance. When stuff is altered or removed in localization, I hate the lingering feeling I have that they don't treat me like an adult. "Oh, this is too much for them, they would not like this in their game." I would very much like to be the one to make that decision and not let someone else make that decision for me.
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,205
The difference is, I believe it is not in our place to alter artistic works in the name of cultural morality, and thus feel it is my duty as a localizer to preserve the original work as accurately as possible -- "warts and all," as it were. If you're not changing a work for legal reasons, or to aid in its comprehension, then I feel you devalue it as a work of art by changing it at all. And there are no exceptions to this, in my mind, because there really can't be: once you justify changing one piece of content in someone else's artistic work, you open the floodgates. The original creator's intent begins to lose all relevance.
Doesn't this interpretation presume that the creator intends the offense?

To me, it sounds like you've already decided that a game with racist/homophobic/sexist content means that the creators are racist, sexist, or homophobic and that they specifically wanted to produce messages of sexism, homophobia, or racism. Why not ask them if that's what they really intended and see if there's a way you can localize an appropriate version of the content for an audience that is less interested in indulging people's lazy biases?

Now, I'd actually agree with you if they truly intended to be offensive because they hate people of color, gay people, or women, but in that case the solution (which you've noted) is to pass entirely on translating that sort of game (it can stay in its source language—it doesn't need to be inflicted on the rest of the world).
 

wyrdwad

Member
Nov 2, 2017
80
Doesn't this interpretation presume that the creator intends the offense?

No, actually. I just personally understand unintended offense to be part of the historical context of any piece of art. If someone inadvertently inserts symbology that's offensive into one of their games -- and releases it that way -- then that symbology stands as a testament to the state of Japanese cultural awareness at the time of the game's production. It's what I mean when I say "warts and all."

In short, I believe that the cultural and historical context of a work is just as important to its overall content as its themes, characters, and story. It's those unintentional flaws in a work that humanize it, and help define it as art.

It's basically the same reason I'm against photo retouching: if I have zits or warts on my face, I want those in my photographs, dammit! Pretending they don't exist is like rewriting history. You've gotta take the bad with the good in order to maintain true balance in life.

-Tom
 

Magic Kaito

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,438
No, actually. I just personally understand unintended offense to be part of the historical context of any piece of art. If someone inadvertently inserts symbology that's offensive into one of their games -- and releases it that way -- then that symbology stands as a testament to the state of Japanese cultural awareness at the time of the game's production. It's what I mean when I say "warts and all."

In short, I believe that the cultural and historical context of a work is just as important to its overall content as its themes, characters, and story. It's those unintentional flaws in a work that humanize it, and help define it as art.

It's basically the same reason I'm against photo retouching: if I have zits or warts on my face, I want those in my photographs, dammit! Pretending they don't exist is like rewriting history. You've gotta take the bad with the good in order to maintain true balance in life.

-Tom
You say that it's important to preserve the creator's intent, but then you say here that whatever's there ought to be preserved regardless of whether or not it was intentionally offensive. That being the case, if the creator was ignorant and didn't intend to offend with a certain parody and you still argue to keep it in because "warts and all", then aren't you basically doing the thing you claim to be against? i.e. opening the floodgates and making the creator's intent begin to lose relevance.
 

wyrdwad

Member
Nov 2, 2017
80
You say that it's important to preserve the creator's intent, but then you say here that whatever's there ought to be preserved regardless of whether or not it was intentionally offensive. That being the case, if the creator was ignorant and didn't intend to offend with a certain parody and you still argue to keep it in because "warts and all", then aren't you basically doing the thing you claim to be against? i.e. opening the floodgates and making the creator's intent begin to lose relevance?

Look, I may be a pretty decent editor, but when it comes to trying to explain things in my own life, I'm bad with words, OK? ;)

I amend my statement to say that my goal, in opposing censorship, is to preserve equally (to the best of my ability) the creator's intent, the creator's historical/sociological biases, and (perhaps most crucially) the environment in which the work of art was created.

Basically, my goal is to record, in as much exactitude as possible, the full context behind the art. Because ultimately, art is history, and I do not believe in whitewashing history.

-Tom
 

Magic Kaito

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,438
Look, I may be a pretty decent editor, but when it comes to trying to explain things in my own life, I'm bad with words, OK? ;)

I amend my statement to say that my goal, in opposing censorship, is to preserve equally (to the best of my ability) the creator's intent, the creator's historical/sociological biases, and (perhaps most crucially) the environment in which the work of art was created.

Basically, my goal is to record, in as much exactitude as possible, the full context behind the art. Because ultimately, art is history, and I do not believe in whitewashing history.

-Tom
Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't mean to pick on you or anything, just wanted to understand your stance, and that was where I got confused.
 

wyrdwad

Member
Nov 2, 2017
80
Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't mean to pick on you or anything, just wanted to understand your stance, and that was where I got confused.

Nah, I appreciate it. I am, legitimately, really bad at arguing my point of view online -- though that never stops me from trying, whether or not that's a good idea! The one upshot of this is that the more I discuss an issue, the better equipped I am to articulate it if and when it comes up again in the future.

-Tom
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,119
I love the translation in Zwei so far. It's totally not proper English, but it works for the kind of super informal level that this game is going for. And I just love Pokkle's absolutely terrible puns. He is so bad at it, he is making me look good.

I didn't really follow the controversy around Akiba that much, and it didn't really seem like a big thing, especially as the change was in the end done also by the Japanese devs, which makes it quite absurd to even call it "censorship". Censorship is if something is forced to be changed, either by the state or some other private entity with a lot of power. If a dev changes it, to not create offense, to avoid controversy, it's not censorship. It's their own deliberate decision.
 

wyrdwad

Member
Nov 2, 2017
80
I love the translation in Zwei so far. It's totally not proper English, but it works for the kind of super informal level that this game is going for. And I just love Pokkle's absolutely terrible puns. He is so bad at it, he is making me look good.

I didn't really follow the controversy around Akiba that much, and it didn't really seem like a big thing, especially as the change was in the end done also by the Japanese devs, which makes it quite absurd to even call it "censorship". Censorship is if something is forced to be changed, either by the state or some other private entity with a lot of power. If a dev changes it, to not create offense, to avoid controversy, it's not censorship. It's their own deliberate decision.

Definitely don't want to get into this, but I do feel compelled to note that the devs changed it for the Western release only. It's still present in the Japanese release.

If they'd changed it for both, it would've been a moot point for me.

-Tom
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,119
Definitely don't want to get into this, but I do feel compelled to note that the devs changed it for the Western release only. It's still present in the Japanese release.

If they'd changed it for both, it would've been a moot point for me.

-Tom
As as I just said "If a dev changes it, to not create offense". A Japanese audience might actually connect KKK with the company NKK, a Western one could not.Even the idea that this could possibly have been intentional is baloney. And keeping it in, when it accidentally bring in so much baggage?

I have nothing against you, man. Your work on Zwei alone redeems any dumb things you might have said in the past, but I really fail to see your point with this. I'm sorry.
 

wyrdwad

Member
Nov 2, 2017
80
It's clearly changed, because now he's making exceptions for "business reasons." And he gets totally torn apart for it in the comments section on that post.

I'm not sure what you mean. My stance has not changed one bit. I am making no exceptions whatsoever, aside from clarifying that my views on censorship don't necessarily reflect my opinions on the content in question. And that's always been the case -- I think people just never realized it. Which is part of why I felt compelled to clarify that in the interview.

...Unless by business reasons, you mean stuff like legal restrictions, or the ESRB saying they'll slap an AO rating on the game if content isn't changed? In which case, again, those are exceptions I've always made. They're unavoidable, sadly.

-Tom
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,205
Basically, my goal is to record, in as much exactitude as possible, the full context behind the art. Because ultimately, art is history, and I do not believe in whitewashing history.
Then how do you reconcile that with any other sort of localization change where you have to figure out the intent of the author (since Japanese doesn't translate directly to English in any desirable way)? You say that you have to preserve somebody's homophobic "joke" that was just a product of their limited world-view (with no actual malicious intent), yet your very job is to make editorial decisions on what a work means and how it should be said in English (for an English-speaking market).

The way you describe it, it makes you sound like you view your own work as simply forgery, creating a copy of "art" (which by nature is devoid of any artistic merit itself).
 

wyrdwad

Member
Nov 2, 2017
80
Then how do you reconcile that with any other sort of localization change where you have to figure out the intent of the author (since Japanese doesn't translate directly to English in any desirable way)? You say that you have to preserve somebody's homophobic "joke" that was just a product of their limited world-view (with no actual malicious intent), yet your very job is to make editorial decisions on what a work means and how it should be said in English (for an English-speaking market).

The way you describe it, it makes you sound like you view your own work as simply forgery, creating a copy of "art" (which by nature is devoid of any artistic merit itself).

I kind of do! That's something I struggle with constantly.

My only solace is in trying my very best to take into account the full context of the original line in everything I localize, and hoping beyond hope that I got it right.

-Tom
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,205
I guess I just can't understand. If a creator says to you that their joke was never meant to be offensive, and yet you go and create an offensive English joke or string of dialogue (because "art"), that's just as much on you as it is on them.

In fact, it's probably even worse on you, because you know it's offensive and you're doing it anyway specifically because it is offensive (despite all the other myriad places where you'd change things because it doesn't work the same in English as it does in Japanese or just plain doesn't work at all).

It sounds to me like your resistance is confined to things you'd change to please somebody else vs. the things you'd change to please only yourself. I don't want to mischaracterize you, but I can't see how it's much different from any other part of the localization process (except in the case where the creator's intent is actually to be offensive), which is why I think I'm struggling to really see where you're coming from.
 

wyrdwad

Member
Nov 2, 2017
80
It sounds to me like your resistance is confined to things you'd change to please somebody else vs. the things you'd change to please only yourself. I don't want to mischaracterize you, but I can't see how it's much different from any other part of the localization process (except in the case where the creator's intent is actually to be offensive), which is why I think I'm struggling to really see where you're coming from.

If you don't get it by now, then I'm honestly not sure I'll be able to clarify it in a way that'll make sense to you -- especially given how provably bad I am at conveying this in the first place. It's tough because, to me, this all feels like common sense -- it's like explaining to someone why it's bad to punch people in the stomach. I find it difficult to understand why others don't get it, as it all just feels so logical and self-explanatory in my head. Makes me wish the Vulcan mind meld were a real thing, so I could just... show you. Without words. Because I truly do believe I'm right on this, I just have no idea how to prove it to anyone else. And all my attempts to do so always seem to backfire.

As it stands, I'm genuinely not sure what else to say. If you really want to continue discussing this, I'll do my best to explain myself further, but... frankly, I'm exhausted, and I'd like to request that we leave this horse to die and move on. I have no confidence that I'll ever be able to get you to see my point of view, and if anything, I'll probably say something that'll inadvertently dig me an even deeper hole, necessitating making this whole argument even more complex just to get back to where we are now.

I dunno. I think this GOG interview just kind of wore me down. I'm used to the pro-censorship contingency raking me through the coals, but having the anti-censorship contingency do the same really hurt. And I'd just like to NOT discuss censorship in gaming for a little while, if that's OK.

-Tom