There is increasing animosity towards women since #MeToo

Jersey_Tom said:

Not without being insulting as in the passage I quoted referred to people bringing up an issue with this as "delicate flowers".

And this whole entire thread is specifically about pushback to the #MeToo movement.

Is it not relevant to say that perhaps that the way people are going about defending the movement by being explicitly broad and insulting when arguing their points perhaps to people not necessarily as "woke" on the issues surrounding women or generally just on the sidelines that will lead people to dig further into the sand?

The irony is that I've seen people make the movement specifically about people having basic decency when some of its most ardent defenders fail to uphold that standard in conversations surrounding the issue. And just as I mentioned in a previous post that some men I've dealt with have been too comfortable around women when they talk to them, I think it's equally true that spending too long within the echo chamber of a movement can make people too comfortable to more persuasively argue their points because they're used to being able to make generalized statements and have people immediately understand the nuance.

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This is a thread about how men aren't really supportive of the #MeToo movement and are only acting like they are to women's faces. And instead of letting women come in here and vent about it, you'd rather police how women talk about men. I do like how you're starting to push the blame for the pushback onto women though. That's really classy of you.

I don't think it is as systemic as the op suggests, and it's the kind of backlash that is always going to pop up on the more fringe elements. It's not going to stop the overall change.

Men can have insecurities too, constantly antagonizing them won't help your cause. Even if the dude doesn't take advantage of his male privilege, the second he questions the claims of women he'll be labeled as a stupid entitled nice guy. I know people that always considered themselves as liberals or progressive that end up having redpill-like views on feminism and how it's "misandrist" solely because they don't have success in the dating game. Some people just don't have the temperament to be successful at this. For them, merely trying to get to know one girl is exhausting enought. When it doesn't go well and he questions what he did wrong because the girl straight up ghosted him or whatever when it seemed to be going well, that's when the guy gets jumped by everyone saying "you don't deserve shit you nice guy get over it" instead of more motivating responses. That's how a lot of people hate on women in the first place.

Saying that men are trash isn't a constructive way to solve this problem at all, this is no better than people going like "fuck bitches get money" after a girl took advantage of them. There are other ways to educate men on that that aren't about publicly shaming. In this current climate, it's very easy for your typical dude to hate on feminism because it simply doesn't advantage him in any possible way. That's a very warped vision to have but it's the truth, this is something that is currently happening, again saying that men are garbage doesn't help your cause. It doesn't tell them what they did wrong but more importantly it doesn't tell them what they can do better.

If you want equality starting by acting what you preach should be a good start. If a dude makes you unconfortable make him know. Maybe that will be them more aware of their mistakes rather than constantly saying that "men can't take no for an answer/can't read body language", at least start hinting at solutions for this problem

Ketkat said:

This is a thread about how men aren't really supportive of the #MeToo movement and are only acting like they are to women's faces. And instead of letting women come in here and vent about it, you'd rather police how women talk about men. I do like how you're starting to push the blame for the pushback onto women though. That's really classy of you.

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"police how women talk about men"

It's an overly broad generalization from a single, individual poster. When youre overly broad you'll get ire from other posters whom you are generalizing. Choosing the ire over more precise language is only valid if your goal is to derail instead of converse (as that overly broad post has done, derailing quite efficiently)

Cap G said:

"police how women talk about men"

It's an overly broad generalization from a single, individual poster. When youre overly broad you'll get ire from other posters whom you are generalizing. Choosing the ire over more precise language is only valid if your goal is to derail instead of converse (as that overly broad post has done, derailing quite efficiently)

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Read this post, since I doubt you did. And even after this was posted, we're getting that guy coming in here and saying that language like this is causing people to go against #MeToo? Grow up and stop making this all about you.

This is something men (oh no! A generalisation. Better crucify me) in general don't seem to understand. When we say "men are garbage", we are not saying you, yes you, forum user I have never met is garbage. We are saying it because we're fucking tired of the constant bullshit we face every goddamn day from men as a whole, in person and on the internet and the news and just everywhere. "Men are garbage" from a woman is usually an expression of frustration. It's not some misandrist conspiracy. And what men really don't seem to get is that the more they cry about #notallmen, or taking umbrage when we talk about male privilege and acting all outraged or barging into sexual assault threads with their false accusations shit, the angrier and more frustrated women get, which just reinforces the "holy shit, men really are garbage, why do we even bother?" mindset.

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Hahahahahahahaha like letting skeevy dudes know that you're uncomfortable stops them. My god lol

And seriously. It's really fucking obvious he didn't mean all men. Stop making it about yourself.

Probably just more vocal than before, but it was always there.

It's the same with any minority or under-privileged class. Any time they dare speak up or "step out of line," they need to be "put back in their place" by the powers that be.

Otherwise, those at the top risk losing some of that precious power.

I have a co-worker who doesn't understand why women who were sexually harrassed at work in the 80's and 90's are coming out and joining the movement because it was considered normal at that point in time. My co-worker is a woman.

Keldroc said:

For fuck's sake, will you delicate flowers get the fuck over the "men are garbage" post already? Women get to vent a bit without you instantly making it about you. Go write #notallmen in your journal over and over for a while and get it out of your system, then come back ready to actually discuss something. Every damn time, I swear.

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Would it be fair to say "Woman are emotional/unstable/crazy, men have been saying it forever."? It's on the same plane. It's a dumb statement just like the one above is.

What I have noticed being the biggest demonizing factor for woman in the aftermath of this is the whole "why'd it take so long?" argument. Almost everytime it's brought up I hear that. It's like there is no understanding of fear of repercussion of reporting and how getting behind a big movement can hopefully protect you from that BS.

Secondary is how men are being punished without being proven via court. They think in these cases that public outrage shouldn't be something that happens unless proven in court lol.

Ketkat said:

This is a thread about how men aren't really supportive of the #MeToo movement and are only acting like they are to women's faces. And instead of letting women come in here and vent about it, you'd rather police how women talk about men. I do like how you're starting to push the blame for the pushback onto women though. That's really classy of you.

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I believe that's intentionally misrepresenting my point as I think it's clear that defenders of the movement aren't exclusively women and I've never once mentioned specifically that women are the only defenders of the movement. I also think you may have just proved my point as you're choosing to be snippy through sarcasm there.

OP asked at the end of the thread if we notice there's a rise of hatred towards women. I don't see that necessarily as the case but as some others have brought up no one likes to reflect on how they've acted and realize that they were wrong. Self-reflection is often difficult and I think it becomes moreso when generalized statements are made that are derogatory in nature that may apply to them.

Personally I've been under the assumption that the movement is not just about venting, but also about initiating much needed change. If I'm mistaken, please let me know. Otherwise I stand by the notion that being intentionally broad and just expecting everyone to realize the nuance you're going for is not an effective means of bringing about the change you seek and will likely lead those men who think there's nothing wrong or are on the sidelines of the issue to further retreat deeper into situations like what OP brings up.

RobNBanks said:

Men have always been garbage, women tried to tell us for years

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So...you're calling yourself garbage!?

RobNBanks said:

Men have always been garbage, women tried to tell us for years

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This isn't sexism, nope not at all.

Stop being so damned defensive. If you aren't pond scum, then he's not referring to you. Or just accept that this hit is deserved and we all got to take a bit of it as a collective.
Can't wait for the second phase of #Metoo

Jersey_Tom said:

I believe that's intentionally misrepresenting my point as I think it's clear that defenders of the movement aren't exclusively women and I've never once mentioned specifically that women are the only defenders of the movement. I also think you may have just proved my point as you're choosing to be snippy through sarcasm there.

OP asked at the end of the thread if we notice there's a rise of hatred towards women. I don't see that necessarily as the case but as some others have brought up no one likes to reflect on how they've acted and realize that they were wrong. Self-reflection is often difficult and I think it becomes moreso when generalized statements are made that are derogatory in nature that may apply to them.

Personally I've been under the assumption that the movement is not just about venting, but also about initiating much needed change. If I'm mistaken, please let me know. Otherwise I stand by the notion that being intentionally broad and just expecting everyone to realize the nuance you're going for is not an effective means of bringing about the change you seek and will likely lead those men who think there's nothing wrong or are on the sidelines of the issue to further retreat deeper into situations like what OP brings up.

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Do you think this explanation is harming the movement in any way?

This is something men (oh no! A generalisation. Better crucify me) in general don't seem to understand. When we say "men are garbage", we are not saying you, yes you, forum user I have never met is garbage. We are saying it because we're fucking tired of the constant bullshit we face every goddamn day from men as a whole, in person and on the internet and the news and just everywhere. "Men are garbage" from a woman is usually an expression of frustration. It's not some misandrist conspiracy. And what men really don't seem to get is that the more they cry about #notallmen, or taking umbrage when we talk about male privilege and acting all outraged or barging into sexual assault threads with their false accusations shit, the angrier and more frustrated women get, which just reinforces the "holy shit, men really are garbage, why do we even bother?" mindset.

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As for that bolded garbage, let me ask you this. Do you really think that someone who sees the level of systematic abuse that occurs from men towards women would be put off by some women venting with a "Men are garbage" in response to that? And if they are, do you think they were serious about listening to the actual problems that women go through? Why does this have to be about appeasing men's feelings in a movement that's about women being sexually abused by men? Why does everything have to be about babying you guys into supporting women who were sexually abused or else you just won't do it?

Whenever a minority or oppressed group fights back, this always happens.

BlackFyre said:

Long Story short, I've been observing that since #MeToo is in full swing, that older (mostly) men are revealing themselves to be more misogynistic than I realised.

It seems the same social media that empowered women to speak out, has resulted in the banding of men who roll their eyes at women who "took too long to come forward" or that women deserve what they got because they continued to work with their abusers.

I've noticed this in social circles, family gatherings, and sometimes at work. When women are present, these men stay quiet, and support them when topics like Rose McGowan, and Uma Thurman are brought up.

Once the women leave, the bashing begins. People you'd never expect to get along are now patting each other on the back over a joke, etc...

No one is really talking about this, but I'm seeing this and just wondering if it's just men, or do you also sense a rise of hate towards women?

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I have older aunts that literally think these women are making this stuff up and making trouble for speaking up.

RobNBanks said:

Men have always been garbage, women tried to tell us for years

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TesservcT said:

This isn't sexism, nope not at all.

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Nope. It's not. It's a flippant way of acknowledging a system built to privilege (certain) men over women, to allow men power over women. Listen, I know it's difficult to talk about. But talking about the systems that keep men in power despite multiple sexual harassment accounts, despite paying women off to make things go away, despite the abuse and destruction of women isn't sexism. It's cold, hard fact and we need to get it into the open. Is "men are garbage" a hyperbolic way to say it? Sure. But is the system that upholds this garbage? You're goddamned right it is.

Seeya said:

I don't think it is as systemic as the op suggests, and it's the kind of backlash that is always going to pop up on the more fringe elements. It's not going to stop the overall change.

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There are already rumblings about how men and women should be separated at work. At how no one's allowed to flirt anymore. And these are ridiculous, fringe notions but they get repeated, discussed, normalized. The contemporary fringe moves easily into the mainstream thanks to the internet (sometimes, a mistake).

I don't think it's increased animosity. It's just surfacing what was already there. Same thing with Black Lives Matter and the civil rights movement and anything else that tries to focus on the plight of those who are discriminated against or underrepresented.

Exposing their challenges and poor treatment in society likely does not cause more people to treat them badly who didn't previously. It just makes the shitty people speak up because they feel like they are losing control.

Edit: Upon review the comment in question has been warned. The original mod post remains below for context and transparency.

Please stop using this thread to discuss a single comment and attempt to turn it into a completely off-topic discussion. This is not the thread for that. A comment made in frustration is simply that. The poster was not saying all men are garbage, but was simply stating this stuff have been going on for a long time, and it's finally coming to light now that people are listening. Get back on topic and stay there or further moderation will be necessary.

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Dr. Monkey said:

There are already rumblings about how men and women should be separated at work. At how no one's allowed to flirt anymore. And these are ridiculous, fringe notions but they get repeated, discussed, normalized. The contemporary fringe moves easily into the mainstream thanks to the internet (sometimes, a mistake).

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The VP of the US is one of those that believes that this is the way it should be.

People have been pretty decent in my circles. But they know I would never jump in with them so maybe they don't talk like this around me.

D i Z said:

Stop being so damned defensive. If you aren't pond scum, then he's not referring to you. Or just accept that this hit is deserved and we all got to take a bit of it as a collective.
Can't wait for the second phase of #Metoo

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Second Phase?

Fiction said:

Please stop using this thread to discuss a single comment and attempt to turn it into a completely off-topic discussion. This is not the thread for that. A comment made in frustration is simply that. The poster was not saying all men are garbage, but was simply stating this stuff have been going on for a long time, and it's finally coming to light now that people are listening. Get back on topic and stay there or further moderation will be necessary.

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*Sees video where Chinese person runs over another one*
"Chinese people are garbage!"

*Multiple accusations of racism later*
"Geez I only meant some of them! I was just venting!"

Jesus christ, please look at yourself.

D i Z said:

The VP of the US is one of those that believes that this is the way it should be.

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Right? Because men are obviously uncontrollable savages who cannot be contained. /s

Patriarchy is a hell of a drug.

Metioned in another thread that I see why Trump won Ohio. Locally, I've heard men and women dismiss the movement. That's why I said I don't talk about this stuff IRL anymore.

The victim blaming has always been there, but I think the pushback is starting to become more visible because those people are "tired of hearing about it everyday". Within my own family, I've heard all the replies.
Why'd it take so long?
The women were asking for it/they knew what they were getting into.
They're just trying to ruin the man/extort money out of him.
Even a couple of women in my family buy into this stuff and parrot it around.
One dude even questioned the Nassar stuff, saying "How could he possibly do that to all of those girls and get away with it for so long?" I'm sure living in MI and being a college sports fan played a role in that bs opinion too.

So yeah, I've noticed it but it's been a thing for as long as I remember. Some people in my family continue to have garbage ass opinions, while some of the others who know better won't even speak up, afraid of rocking the boat. I've been arguing alone on an island for so long, they're just starting to avoid me in any of these discussions so they don't have to deal with it.

Daysean said:

Second Phase?

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Well, there's always an evolution to social reconstruction like this. So far it's a handful of women, not an actual shift for all women.

Fiction said:

Please stop using this thread to discuss a single comment and attempt to turn it into a completely off-topic discussion. This is not the thread for that. A comment made in frustration is simply that. The poster was not saying all men are garbage, but was simply stating this stuff have been going on for a long time, and it's finally coming to light now that people are listening. Get back on topic and stay there or further moderation will be necessary.

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The topic is gender animosity. A post containing animosity towards males is given a pass but here we are talking about how we're not okay with animosity towards women.

This is what you might call 'bullshit'.

Okay, I'm going to put this as simply as humanly possible.

When women (or heck, even men) say "men are garbage", we are not referring to every single man on the planet, including you, personally. We are saying the patriarchal systems that uphold male privilege and lead to the necessity of movements like #MeToo in the first place and encourage rape culture are garbage. When we say "men are garbage", it is not the same as me, a white person, saying, "black people are garbage", because I as a white person hold privilege that black people do not, and therefore am punching down on an oppressed group. I am helping to reinforce harmful ingrained ideas that lead to institutionalised racism in the first place. When women say "men are garbage", literally the only thing that is doing is hurting men's feelings, but to some men this seems to be the worst crime imaginable.

To which I say: get the fuck over it.

It's a dumb lazy statement. Getting offended over it is even dumber.

Ketkat said:

Do you think this explanation is harming the movement in any way?

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I think this explanation kind of doesn't address my concerns. Now I can't speak for anyone else but am I personally offended by the "men are garbage" comment? Absolutely not, I've got thicker skin than that and as someone who would consider himself an ally I am able to parse what someone saying that is trying to say, though I am able to see why people would view that as a wholly inflammatory statement that betrays the overall point someone is trying to make.

I think what betrays the movement is that certain individuals want to fall into similar mindsets which lead us into misogynistic and sexist mindsets. The same arguments that I've seen people make for defending the statement with no context are similar to the same arguements people make for Trump or other closet bigots. "That's not what they really meant." "You know when they say that they're REALLY saying this..." "Stop being so sensitive, snowflake." It'd be hypocritical for me to say one is wrong and the other is fine.

As for that bolded garbage, let me ask you this. Do you really think that someone who sees the level of systematic abuse that occurs from men towards women would be put off by some women venting with a "Men are garbage" in response to that? And if they are, do you think they were serious about listening to the actual problems that women go through? Why does this have to be about appeasing men's feelings in a movement that's about women being sexually abused by men? Why does everything have to be about babying you guys into supporting women who were sexually abused or else you just won't do it?

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As someone who works in the very broadcasting industry that has seen a good portion of these higher profile examples of sexism and misogyny, I'd like to think that I'm more than willing to listen to and attempt to act on the mistreatment of women in and out of the workplace. As I've made mention I've attempted on my own as well to help curb that kind of element within my own realm of work. I'm not looking for medals or praise for that because as people have said this should just be about basic decency with relative strangers.

However, we shouldn't fall into the mindset that everyone is as woke as others who may belong on a relatively progressive leaning forum. We've made mention that some men are completely oblivious to the fact that they are being hurtful or misogynist because they don't know any better. Of course that doesn't excuse their actions but I've always found that attacking that person and calling them subhuman garbage doesn't exactly lead one to immediately say "you know what, you're right, I am garbage." People have basic pride and dignity. And when you attack that, walls come up. Your refusal to acknowledge that I think does a great disservice to the good work you're trying to do. You can't just assume everyone understands that a generalized statement means what you think it means. That's the kind of thing we accuse Trump of, calling him a dog whistler to racists for making broad generalized statements that he can easily defend himself by saying "now, now, I didn't say ALL Mexicans and I did say there's some good ones." Your intentions may be righteous, but the result of marginalizing people is still the same.

Is it about babying people? No. It's about not drive-by shitposting either in a forum or real life and then you or someone else getting upset because they didn't get the paragraph(s) long nuance of what that statement "really" meant.

Assuming people will just "get it" is going to leave you wanting. Because you know what they say about assuming.

D i Z said:

Well, there's always an evolution to social reconstruction like this. So far it's a handful of women, not an actual shift for all women.

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Ah, I got you, was just a little confused

Edit: did not see mod message

IchigoSharingan said:

The topic is gender animosity. A post containing animosity towards males is given a pass but here we are talking about how we're not okay with animosity towards women.

This is what you might call 'bullshit'.

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this is exactly my problem with this thread. It's completely okay to bash men around here. Nothing wrong with it, nope not at all. Men are trash BTW.

I refuse to believe most of the people making the most noise about that comment are actually that offended and are just deflecting from the actual substantive discussion that could be happening.

Daysean said:

Ah, I got you, was just a little confused

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Who knows where this is going. I'm looking forward to seeing it. And I hope that it's swift as shit and fucking ruthless.

What really surprised me was hearing women, like those prominent french women, talking about how tired they're getting of the #MeToo movement and having similar animosity towards these people coming out about their stories.

I think a big part of it is the unwillingness to admit the problem is as widespread as it is because if they acknowledge the scale of this they have to reexamine a lot of their beliefs and opinions.

Betty said:

What really surprised me was hearing women, like those prominent french women, talking about how tired they're getting of the #MeToo movement and having similar animosity towards these people coming out about their stories.

I think a big part of it is the unwillingness to admit the problem is as widespread as it is because if they acknowledge the scale of this they have to reexamine a lot of their beliefs and opinions.

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If you don't admit it's a problem or blame the victim (she was asking for it) then it can't happen to you right? You are a good girl would never get into that situation.

At least that's my theory behind the psychology

I only hear women go off about it. Men seem to just want to avoid it.

Women only started speaking against it after the Aziz story though, which seems to have been forgotten about.

Puck Beaverton said:

Women only started speaking against it after the Aziz story though, which seems to have been forgotten about.

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i aint gonna comment on this directly because i was banned for it for some reason (lol) but yeah thats a gigantic elephant in the room that refuses to be addressed by certain people

Betty said:

What really surprised me was hearing women, like those prominent french women, talking about how tired they're getting of the #MeToo movement and having similar animosity towards these people coming out about their stories.

I think a big part of it is the unwillingness to admit the problem is as widespread as it is because if they acknowledge the scale of this they have to reexamine a lot of their beliefs and opinions.

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The most complaints I've personally heard about #metoo, has infact come from women. All different ages, backgrounds and social statuses, It's really weird.

demosthenes said:

I have older aunts that literally think these women are making this stuff up and making trouble for speaking up.

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ChrisBliss117 said:

I have a co-worker who doesn't understand why women who were sexually harrassed at work in the 80's and 90's are coming out and joining the movement because it was considered normal at that point in time. My co-worker is a woman.

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Also these. If I could get a quarter every time I heard these, I would be fucking loaded.

Persephone said:

Okay, I'm going to put this as simply as humanly possible.

When women (or heck, even men) say "men are garbage", we are not referring to every single man on the planet, including you, personally. We are saying the patriarchal systems that uphold male privilege and lead to the necessity of movements like #MeToo in the first place and encourage rape culture are garbage. When we say "men are garbage", it is not the same as me, a white person, saying, "black people are garbage", because I as a white person hold privilege that black people do not, and therefore am punching down on an oppressed group. I am helping to reinforce harmful ingrained ideas that lead to institutionalised racism in the first place. When women say "men are garbage", literally the only thing that is doing is hurting men's feelings, but to some men this seems to be the worst crime imaginable.

To which I say: get the fuck over it.

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It should be noted however, that if [Reader] sees a behavior that [Reader] engages in, being called out as garbage behavior, then [Reader] should really consider re-evaluating the behavior rather than continuing it. So there is a chance that [Reader] is being currently included in a collective noun; the kicker is that [Reader] CONTROLS whether [Reader] continues to be included in said collective noun. Therefore, any angst should be internally directed, not externally.