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PhoenixDark

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,089
White House
But no one, certainly not we two, has contested that, it was about the idea that it is somehow bad if you like something that a Nazi likes.

The examples given little to nothing to do with Nazi ideology, making the argument disingenuous to me. Hitler liking dogs is immaterial to his ideology and has nothing to do with him being a tyrannical murderer/racist/race supremacist/[insert other shit]. Even the Nazi Party's social welfare policies were rooted in their core racism, given that their welfare was only accessible to racially pure Germans (ie not Jews).

When I hear "but the Nazis did some good things/if you support x you support a part of the Nazi platform lol" what I largely hear a fascist argument that isn't being made in good faith.
 

legacyzero

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,252
As much as I hate Nazis, I cannot stand behind any kind of violence. The only that can prosecute and judge is the federal justice system, and it is the job of the government to prohibit Nazism.

We as citizens do not have the right to act upon the law and enforce it in a way we see fit.
Listen, under any other administration, I'd agree. In fact, much to the frustrations of fellow posters on GAF and here, I'm one of the more angry defenders of free speech and protest. When people were losing their shit over Milo at Berkley, I was like "So?" His right to free speech is what exposed me to him, and subsequently made me despise him. I of course have a certain level of intelligence to understand that his views are terrible for the majority of them.

I defended the "alt-right" rallies at well. They're protected under law. But then Charlottesville happened. It was then that I realized that an unfortunate series of events were unfolding. Not to mention, they pulled attack's right out of the ISIS playbook (ramming cars into crowds). All this in a city that's 60 miles away from my hometown. I realized that they aren't simply interested in 'having their voices heard'. Their intentions aren't to simply "own those libs!" THERES something more sinister than that.

I fully disagree with your "it's the governments responsibility!" I originally would have agreed with you. But look at our government. What it is now. A corrupt, complicit, and down-right racist establishment. Nazis need punchin. Our current governments aren't going to be the ones doing it.

Let's not forget. The world fought a goddamn war over this ideology. And the world won. It's not just the governments responsibility to keep that fire out. It's your duty socially as well. If the government won't, who will? There's a reason why Nazis weren't in the streets during he Obama years. At least not to this level. Our president called them "very fine people".
 

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
This is such an important read, especially for those who are usually averse to these conversations and who thinks that "the left" are mean and that if it wasn't for them, people wouldn't turn into nazis:

centristsmzo2w.jpg


During and after Gamergate, I've seen so many fall into this trap and there are already a bunch of them on this site as well who are fulfilling the role of "alt-lite" because they feel that the left is mean, but the far-right people are nice and welcoming. You may even find some of these cases in this very thread.

IrishNinja I think this deserves to be in the OP if you feel like it
He forgets one point, the false niceness that can be detected by the other party as sarcasm and other small bullying tactics like "irritation over and over until the other side get's annoyed". If they do seem to have found a "lost cause" then this happens, so to their "traitors/converted" they still seem incredibly nice. But to you, they are wearing you thin and annoying you till you bite. Once you bite they have yet another example for those that have been converted that "the other side is evil, see!". It also is really hard to walk away, as the language used is filled with small little fishhooks and baits to lure you back in.

I lost 1 friend to this awful "virus", he then tried it on me too, but when you didn't listen and had your morals overrule their paradigms, they start acting like that, to not only proof to others but also to themselves that. "You are beyond saving and are aggressive. See I'm right!". It makes that person who wants to belong feel even better about himself :(.

Still miss my buddy, but he completely changed and is a completely new person these days, not at all recognizable anymore to how he used to be. It's scary even how effective it is, you as the outsider see all of these steps happening to him, as he slowly changes, you warn him, but all your warnings do is confirm to him that the Alt Right is correct. No matter how many jokes you add to it, no matter how nice you say it, no matter what you do, it is seen as an attack where you "wish to tear him away from his new found home!".

It's like a cult and their brainwashing. It's crazy effective :(.
 

Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
The Onion‏ @TheOnion
White Supremacist Tired After Long Day Of Interviews With Mainstream News Outlets https://www.theonion.com/white-supremacist-tired-after-long-day-of-interviews-wi-1822818329

GEORGETOWN, OH—Following conversations with the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, and Newsweek, white supremacist Bryan McCafferty was reportedly exhausted Thursday after a long day of interviews with mainstream news outlets. "God, I really want to just get home and sleep, but I still have a sit-down with the New York Times at 7:30, and my CNN segment is filming right after at nine," said McCafferty, lamenting that he didn't have a spare minute to finish email correspondences about rural neo-Nazis with NPR and PBS NewsHour because a Salon reporter accompanied him this week to better understand his hatred of black and Hispanic neighbors. "Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to spread the message of a white ethnostate, but I just can't do any more phone interviews with Chris Hayes or Jake Tapper while I'm driving my kids to school. It's draining." McCafferty added that he's at least been fortunate enough to still find time to harass local minorities and Jews
 
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SHØGVN

Member
Oct 29, 2017
258
I guess PragerU deserve to be deplatformed too, along with all the Alt-right Nazi scum:

 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,433
The Joe Rogan Experience is not anywhere close to the same kind of media as Vice or BBC or Louis Theroux's documentaries.

Oh, I could really go for a Louis Theroux documentary on the alt-right. It could be played to contrast but also highlight the similarities to Louis And The Nazis.

I don't think that quite merits as 'giving them a platform', given his whole approach.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
What? No, I am absolutely not doing this, I was arguing why it is dumb to complain about someone who has a horrible world view happening to like something you like as well. I never said with a single word that the racial views are comparable to supporting pensions at all.
For clarification, I'm talking about pages ago were you tried to disassociate neo Nazi conspiracy theories from being, well, neo Nazi conspiracy theories.
So now Joe Rogan is added to the list and he is a "platform of hate speech"? I'm out of here.
The fact that you needed to misconstrue someone else's argument entirely and making it seem like someone said something they didn't actually said, and then use that as a generalisation of opposing viewpoints to yourself, as a desperate way of trying to exiting the conversation, is pretty telling.
 

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
People aren't 100% good or evil.

Hitler was a vegetarian, loved his dog and was nice to his secretary. Is every vegetarian now also evil?

I'm pretty sure even a piece of shit like a KKK Grand Dragon loves his daughter/son very much just like nearly every other parent on this earth.
Being vegetarian doesn't make you a good person or is less evil. In fact vegans and vegetarians also eat life forms. Plants just live slower and have an upside down nervous system (with their brains basically being their roots). They even communicate through pheromones with each other. They are just not "alive" in the sense of having 2 eyes, 1 mouth and being more active in movement. We do however eat too much meat, and yes I'm vegetarian, but it doesn't tell me intrinsically that someone is more evil or less evil. Unless you go out of your line to make your meat suffer, but then so can you make plants suffer. So a truly "evil" vegan, that cuts plants over and over again to make them "bleed", not give them enough water and other crap like that would still show the same signs of being a psychopath! Might be on plants rather than animals, but it still is the same reasoning.

But you found a nice whataboutism there, because Hitler loved his fuzzy dog, he can't be all evil or "are all Vegans/Vegetarians evil too!?". You do know the man drove women to suicide right? I guess they weren't fuzzy and cute enough?
 

kappa_krey

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
630
Right. That people are too stupid to understand the arguments and instead need those advocating for deplatforming to tell them what is and isn't right so they don't need to concern themselves with the arguments. I'm not sure how this doesn't apply to Louis Theroux, though. He rarely offers an actual opinion on any given subject, merely shines a light on it. That's what most documentaries do - they document something, not act as a polemic for the host.

I think in the case of platforms that specifically target children,who,while I think we tend to underestimate the reasoning skills of (some kids these days seem more level-headed than the adults!), are by nature very impressionable and therefore can be easily persuaded by people who want to push toxic ideas on them but otherwise come off as a friendly cartoon character,....in those kind of situations de-platforming is pretty much required. It's no different than the Standards and Practices network television sets up and why you don't see stuff like Real Sex and Breaking Bad on CN or Nick or Disney.

The problem w/ that on the internet is that all of that type of stuff is easily accessible, for free, on any number of places, and while there are ways parents can block that content off for their kids, it requires more technical know-how than the average parent probably has, and none of those standards are universally implemented. That's probably why the push for de-platforming has the support it has, b/c a lot of the people trying to subvert do so by going after the most impressionable, i.e manchildren and actual children.

There's not a lot you can do w/ the former but with the latter, we're presented with two situations: either the entire internet is completely censored by force i.e similar to countries like China, OR networks with platforms that are very popular with children (and, well, all platforms/sites to a degree) come up with a way of implementing some type of system of Standards and Practices that is universal and works. At least w/ the 2nd option, freedom of information is still a thing, even if people have to verify themselves as being age-appropriate for certain things to a degree.

Now, how platforms like Youtube currently handle it is bunked, because they're punishing EVERYONE who even REMOTELY has controversial content, whether that's actually to spread toxicity or educate about the dangers of toxicity, etc. There's no reason a content creator who curses and swears or does inappropriate jokes can't make any money off your platform, when on television mature-rated content brings in advertiser dollars all the time. What should be implemented, however, is a way to where that type of content creator's stuff is clearly labeled for a mature audience, and to where parents can implement some kind of setting on their kid's device that detects that age-rated content, and blocks its playback on the device. This shouldn't be that difficult to implement on the technological level, but getting all the players to agree on a universal standard protocol and implementing it will require egos to be checked at the door and putting the profit-driven bullshit away for a minute.

Another system that could be implemented alongside that (and this one's a lot wilder) would be maybe establishing some kind of international body with access to name and birth dates of individuals in a system that can automatically add that information to sign-up pages on various websites, but the user still is allowed to choose nick-names and whatever just like today. However, they *have* to have their real names and real birth dates in that aforementioned system, and said system only uses the information registered with the governments themselves (actual legal documents, essentially, like birth certificates or legal name change forms) for this.

All websites would have to honor this system and effectively block content to end users who do not meet the age requirements, but the content itself is still there. Of course you'll have people who try to game this, and I don't see any other hardwired way to prevent that besides issuing some type of mandatory "internet chip" to citizens that stores their information like name and DOB, that needs to be inserted in at least one of their internet-connected devices (the others on the home network can access privileges from the one inserted chip through some kind of password hard-set on the chip itself; passwords can be rewritten as they're stored on EPROM (or EEPROM) but can only be rewritten through a secured site managed by the overseeing body with the names/DOB records registered for the system's implementation).

If that sounds like some sci-fi otherworldly shit, just keep in mind sci-fi of the '80s couldn't even predict some of the crazy shit we have now that is these days considered standard fare. I also understand how it kind of gives some scary power to the government in managing the internet, even tho the government has always had some degree in managing protocol implementation and standards, and the stuff I'm proposing would only take their involvement this much further; from there let the free market do what it does best, and most importantly, no censorship of information (in the purest terms).

Put something like that into practice, and you put the onus on parents to actually be mindful of what their kids are doing online, set restrictions, and still allow crude-but-otherwise-not-toxic people to earn money doing what they do. And along the way you effectively cut out a huge portion of the tools available to alt-right or-whatever sorts to target the most impressionable.
 

Mr. X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,495
When the Clippers owner says racist shit, he lost his team.
Why do others get interviews and book deals or voted/hired into positions of influence?
 

Jecht

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,650
I guess PragerU deserve to be deplatformed too, along with all the Alt-right Nazi scum:



....are you joking? Prager U is owned by Dennis Prager. Let me just pick one of his shitty views out from his wiki page.
"He has suggested that same-sex marriage will lead to polygamy and incest In 2014, he claimed that the "heterosexual AIDS" crisis was something "entirely manufactured by the Left."

Here's the rest in case that doesn't bother you at all.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Prager

Let's not even get started on the smear compaign PragerU ran on the southern poverty law center using the same "no, u r hate" tactics the alt right is notorious for.
 

Raven117

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,112
So long as the government itself isn't doing the censoring, by all means, go after the platforms.
 

BMatt07

Banned
Nov 21, 2017
314
Wisconsin
For quite a while now his podcast has played host to people like Jordan Peterson, Bret Weinstein, James Damore, Ben Shapiro, etc. The list goes on, my dude.

He has had just as many liberals on his podcast, what exactly is your point?

Ana Kasparian and Cenk Uygur from The Young Turks have been on, Abby Martin has been on multiple times.

He has had 1074 podcasts for crying out loud, pretending every single guest he has had on has been an "alt-righter" is just nonsense.
 

Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
When the Clippers owner says racist shit, he lost his team.
Why do others get interviews and book deals or voted/hired into positions of influence?

1. Right-winged billionaires love to fund anti-minority and anti-poor shit
2. Mainstream liberal media are blind to power structures and think that giving hate mongers a microphone will defeat them and that everything is up to debate (see global warming as the best example of this shit)
 

Dernhelm

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,422
The Onion used to be the place you went to in order to read some humorous satire. Now their jokes are indistinguishable from reality
Surprisingly The Onion is one of the more reliable sources of internet humour to call a spade a spade with regards to the alt-right. That is a sad fact.
 

Gio

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
837
Manila
He has had just as many liberals on his podcast, what exactly is your point?

Ana Kasparian and Cenk Uygur from The Young Turks have been on, Abby Martin has been on multiple times.

He has had 1074 podcasts for crying out loud, pretending every single guest he has had on has been an "alt-righter" is just nonsense.
I'm not making the point that he has a conservative bias. I'm saying he's providing a space for literal bigots, allowing and encouraging them to espouse their views openly.

For the record, there's a difference between liberals and leftists.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,432
The fact that you needed to misconstrue someone else's argument entirely and making it seem like someone said something they didn't actually said, and then use that as a generalisation of opposing viewpoints to yourself, as a desperate way of trying to exiting the conversation, is pretty telling.
There's a conversation? Opposing viewpoints to myself? You need to cool down me thinks.
Telling of what? Am I a nazi now as well?
 

Karnova

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
626
The Joe Rogan Experience is not anywhere close to the same kind of media as Vice or BBC or Louis Theroux's documentaries. The former is a talk show and the latter is news. Investigative journalism. That changes the context radically, and really gets at what we're so against i.e. normalization of hate and prejudice. People should not be getting used to seeing these individuals, these groups in this context.
But does that really matter in a digital age? We can skip and fast forward the programs message. We can watch clips on YouTube that totally distort the original purpose of the program.

Anything can be turned into propaganda, especially something like a BBC Program. See this video:



Very Alt-Right especially by the comments you might say? It's actually apart of an hour long documentary that obviously is not Islamophobic (or else it never would have made it onto the BBC). Doesn't matter though because this shocking opening clip is the most well known part.
 

Kemono

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,669
Being vegetarian doesn't make you a good person or is less evil. In fact vegans and vegetarians also eat life forms. Plants just live slower and have an upside down nervous system (with their brains basically being their roots). They even communicate through pheromones with each other. They are just not "alive" in the sense of having 2 eyes, 1 mouth and being more active in movement. We do however eat too much meat, and yes I'm vegetarian, but it doesn't tell me intrinsically that someone is more evil or less evil. Unless you go out of your line to make your meat suffer, but then so can you make plants suffer. So a truly "evil" vegan, that cuts plants over and over again to make them "bleed", not give them enough water and other crap like that would still show the same signs of being a psychopath! Might be on plants rather than animals, but it still is the same reasoning.

But you found a nice whataboutism there, because Hitler loved his fuzzy dog, he can't be all evil or "are all Vegans/Vegetarians evil too!?". You do know the man drove women to suicide right? I guess they weren't fuzzy and cute enough?

Thank god you're here to explain to me that Hitler wasn't a good guy even if he loved his dog. You've showed me the light as that was exactly what i was trying to say...

As someone with dead relatives at the hands of real nazis you don't get to school me on any of this.

Nobody in their right mind is trying to excuse what they did. They're the scum of the earth and deserved to die and luckily most of them did.

Dealing in absolutes is a dangerous kind of thinking that'll not help anyone winning against nazi ideology. That's what they do and they're better at it. You've to start taking back the people on the fringes of their influence. The ones talked about in this thread. Painting them with the nazi brush'll only send them closer to them.
 

Nishastra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
176
He has had just as many liberals on his podcast, what exactly is your point?

Ana Kasparian and Cenk Uygur from The Young Turks have been on, Abby Martin has been on multiple times.

He has had 1074 podcasts for crying out loud, pretending every single guest he has had on has been an "alt-righter" is just nonsense.
And no one said that? The issue here, the entire issue of this thread, is of legitimizing hatred.

If you treat racism, sexism, and general bigotry as an "opinion" that can be argued for or against, you're legitimizing it.

If people pushing those beliefs are given one side in a debate, that means that the humanity of non-white people, of women, and of LGBT people is debatable.
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
A near-daily podcast that I listen to is currently up to 1,613 episodes. Surprisingly, they have never once interviewed someone with far right wing ideologies. They believe in not giving a platform to hateful people. To paraphrase their sentiment: "Why would I inflict that on my audience?"

This entire thread is about why giving a platform to hateful people has disastrous consequences. Read the damned OP, it's all in there:
while the link between cries about free speech & support for hate speech are known, i think what matters here - apart from the fact that the 1st amendment refers to the state, and not the marketplace of ideas showing yours the door - is the importance of understanding how fascism & its historical goal of authoritarian genocide starts by attempts to legitimize itself.

gamergate, for example, didn't spontaneously manifest with the infamous slut-shaming incident accredited to its beginnings: the roots of misogynistic behavior were deep in gaming "culture", and a banner to fly under & mainstream attention for toxic views on women, diversity, multiculturalism, a disdain for political correctness (often known as civility), and such were the perfect combination for alt-right breeding & recruitment.

as numbers & public attention increase, so does the veil of legitimacy. the problem comes in with waffling "both sides" arguments, that treats hateful, poor-faith arguments for the dehumanization of marginalized communities as though they had any merit. the same way flat-earthers are not given a seat at the table of science discussions, holocaust denial with history, one of the single greatest things you can do to combat this garbage is to not engage it as though it were an honest and worthwhile view.

also, to quote another: the only way one can put absolute free speech (which in itself is arguable) over the well being of oppressed communities is if you see the whole of life as a debate hall.

another way to put it:



Denying them a platform at every turn is, historically, the most effect way of dealing with their growth




----------
There's a conversation? Opposing viewpoints to myself? You need to cool down me thinks.
Telling of what? Am I a nazi now as well?
Geeze. When someone disagrees with you or someone you like that doesn't mean they are calling them nazis. Stop putting words in peoples' mouths and argue in good faith.
 

AlsoZ

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,003
This is such an important read, especially for those who are usually averse to these conversations and who thinks that "the left" are mean and that if it wasn't for them, people wouldn't turn into nazis:

centristsmzo2w.jpg
There's a much shorter simplification.

The alt-right finds and praises people who aren't fully committed to one side to add them to their side.
The ctrl-left finds and then ostracizes people who aren't fully committed to one side to remove them from theirs.

It shouldn't be hard to guess why the former was quite effective despite their despicable underlying worldviews.
I'm using the term "ctrl-left" tongue-in-cheek, in case someone wants to froth at me for being "alt-right" in an example of massive irony.
 

SHØGVN

Member
Oct 29, 2017
258
Let's not even get started on the smear compaign PragerU ran on the southern poverty law center using the same "no, u r hate" tactics the alt right is notorious for.

Let's not even get started on the smear campaign the SPLC ran on Maajid Nawaz, calling him an anti-Muslim extremist when he actively fights against Islamist extremism.

See how easy this is?
 

David Ricardo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
254
The whole strategy of the alt right is to make appealing, sugar coated arguments that sound kinda correct and take lots of effort and data to properly refute, so giving them a platform helps them spread their lies. Listeners need to do a lot of due diligence to get to the truth of some of their lies, which is why giving them a platform and not completely debunking them is dangerous. You have a guy like Rogan going "huh, that's actually kind of true" to these arguments and you've already lost.
Their 'lies' are already on youtube, and Jordan has millions of followers. I am one of them. I sincerely believe the left doesn't want to debate him because they know they would lose. Simple as that.

BTW, Jordan says racists waving racist flags are useless miserable beings and they should grow up.
 

Straight Edge

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
813
I don't get folks who say that republicans, trump supporters etc are literally Nazis but aren't finding and confronting them on the street and at their homes. I did jail time for fighting actual swastika wearing skinheads in my youth. This sounds like more talk without action.
 

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
Thank god you're here to explain to me that Hitler wasn't a good guy even if he loved his dog. You've showed me the light as that was exactly what i was trying to say...

As someone with dead relatives at the hands of real nazis you don't get to school me on any of this.

Nobody in their right mind is trying to excuse what they did. They're the scum of the earth and deserved to die and luckily most of them did.

Dealing in absolutes is a dangerous kind of thinking that'll not help anyone winning against nazi ideology. That's what they do and they're better at it. You've to start taking back the people on the fringes of their influence. The ones talked about in this thread. Painting them with the nazi brush'll only send them closer to them.
WOW and you just proved that smarmy Sarcasm I pointed out earlier. You know I truly HATE sarcasm, I can't quite detect it, be honest in your messaging to me or STFU is my motto. UNless it is a joke. But this here is a serious conversation. Second, quit the "Antisemitism" bullshit, you only use the "My ancestores died by NAZI's" so I can't converse on. I mean literally you tell me to "shut up" here.

Second I didn't school you, I just did not like you linking vegetarianism/veganism with intrinsic good or bad. That is a completely separate discussion that not even philosophers can answer for you. All you did here was add a nice whataboutism, so we didn't talk about the actual topic, namely platforms for NAZIs and how we shouldn't give them one. When I point that out to you, including some tidbits of actual info on plants .Yes they do communicate and it is awesome, but you were so much spewing more Whataboutism, that you could just have looked up acacia tree and wildebeest poisoning, were the acacia trees told each other to become poisonous as there were too many Wildebeests around eating them.

But thank you, you ruined the discussion for me, as I should "shut up, you got a holocaust survivor in your ancestry". And we should just allow you to link vegans and vegetarians to Hitler as a shield for him and the NAZIs to hide behind as "He must have some good". Same with the tired old "he loved his dog" defense. Many psychopaths love their animals, it's a way they can project to the outside world that they aren't as "bad" as some people say they are.

Seriously... WTF.

PS: My mothers side is Jewish, so your "you don't get to.." is flawed.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,290
Nottingham, UK
I don't think we should "de-platform" anything. It's pointless and counter-productive. I think the left is scared of these "alt-right" views because they are recognized as the flipside of their own identity politics coin.

I would put my individualist, individual rights concepts against any of their bullshit...and I have no fear of them or their warmed over racist collectivism.

So you are saying that any views can be allowed a platform? That we should hope that everyone exposed to these platforms will decipher the bullshit and manipulation for themselves?
 

Arkage

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
453
as numbers & public attention increase, so does the veil of legitimacy. the problem comes in with waffling "both sides" arguments, that treats hateful, poor-faith arguments for the dehumanization of marginalized communities as though they had any merit. the same way flat-earthers are not given a seat at the table of science discussions, holocaust denial with history, one of the single greatest things you can do to combat this garbage is to not engage it as though it were an honest and worthwhile view.

Sorry, but this is where you lose the semantic game you're trying to play. Engaging with an idea doesn't implicitly mean the idea is honest. People engage in arguments all the time with ideas they view as dishonest, whether it be climate change denial or income inequality or white supremacy. Engaging in dishonest ideas is something that happens constantly, and thank god. The word "honesty" is also a curious one to use here - as these people who believe in these bad ideas mostly do so honestly. It's not like they're lying to themselves about how they think white people are better - they really do think white people are better. But anyway. Letting "dishonest" ideas run freely without refutation does absolutely nothing to combat it, and the need to combat it is proportional to the number of people who already believe it. Flatearthers and holocaust deniers are not a growing group in the same way the altright is, so your analogy fails. Imagine if the science community didn't try to refute the bad idea of climate change denial - they just framed it as "oh, that's crazy, let's ignore all their arguments." In such a world I would expect even more people to believe in that denial since silence is almost always interpreted as a product of not having a good rebuttal.

Your second claim is that engaging a (bad) view gives it "worth." The problem here is that a bad idea's "worth" is dependent upon the number of people who already believe it, not the number of people willing to refute it. The altright has been a growing movement, and would remain a growing movement in an alternate universe in which nobody ever "gives them a platform." This is especially true these days when there are no social gatekeepers - people create their own platforms via youtube and twitter or their own websites and don't need to be given one in order to create a fanbase. Back when there were gatekeepers your argument might work, but it simply doesn't anymore due to technology and the way people get their information and ideas.

Bad ideas can grow whether the opposition gives them a platform or not, and if a bad idea has a growing base of followers it needs to be addressed directly if it's to be refuted, and if you care about changing the minds of the followers of that bad idea.
 

Jecht

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,650
Let's not even get started on the smear campaign the SPLC ran on Maajid Nawaz, calling him an anti-Muslim extremist when he actively fights against Islamist extremism.

See how easy this is?
Obviously not that easy since you didn't respond to the rest of my post.

But since you brought it up, SPLC provided plenty of evidence to back up his placement on the list. Including his statements about non-violent Muslims being complicit in the actions of violent Muslims.

Also that isn't a smear campaign.

Feel free to respond to the bulk of my last post. Though I doubt you will. It's kinda clear what your goal here is.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
Hurling abuse is what you would consider a conversation? Interesting. Thanks, but no thanks.
Yes, pointing out that you willingly misconstrued someone else's post , and then used it to make vague generalisations about people while trying to exit the conversation is "hurling abuse"
I'd really love for you to explain in detail to me how is that "hurling abuse". I'm genuinely curious.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
I don't get folks who say that republicans, trump supporters etc are literally Nazis but aren't finding and confronting them on the street and at their homes. I did jail time for fighting actual swastika wearing skinheads in my youth. This sounds like more talk without action.

Because violence is the answer right?

I see the word fascism thrown around a lot these days and that word basically means to forcefully suppress all views but your own.
Looking around social media and posts from forums like this one we should all heed caution not to become the thing we are against.
Pretty soon you'll get to point where it's not just about doing good it will be about whose version of good is the " best " no matter what.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
And no one said that? The issue here, the entire issue of this thread, is of legitimizing hatred.

If you treat racism, sexism, and general bigotry as an "opinion" that can be argued for or against, you're legitimizing it.

If people pushing those beliefs are given one side in a debate, that means that the humanity of non-white people, of women, and of LGBT people is debatable.

The problem of such approach is that it completely hinges upon the idea that A) you've got all the right principles and all the right ideas and B) you are the person that gets to decide who gets a platform and who doesn't.

If you create a system where somehow a part of the public opinion gets to silence the other in virtue of possessing "the right ideas" you run the substantial risk of seeing a moment where A and B aren't the same person, and so you get the person with the wrong ideas to silence the one with the right ones. And we have about 4 thousands years of precedent proving us it's something that not only can happy but it's eagerly waiting to happen again.

You can try and silence the voices but they'll always find a way to reach people, and if they do so in their own echo chambers then they'll have an even easier time spreading and reinforcing their bigoted message because they'll find people who stopped listening to the same channels you've espunged those diverging opinions from. You need to have all voices represented because that's how you reach those people who would otherwise simply keep listening to those who repeat the things they're familiar with.

Censorship never worked. It hasn't worked since the invention of printed paper. You're fundamentally advocating for a fascist instrument on the premise that it will only and always be used by people who have the right ideas and the right values, and we live in a time where we keep cannibalizing each other because we're still pushing the boundaries on what is right. I don't know how old you are, but I'm almost 40 and I can tell you that if today you're seeing the kind of progressiveness you see today it's because in the last 20 years we opened the floodgates and let all voices be heard, even voiced that 20 years ago would have been considered the deranged requests of freaks and deviants. Those voices fought and were heard and ultimately won, and just because now we're winning it would madness to try and go back to the same methods the internet has allowed to surpass. Bring back that kind of control on who gets to speak and who doesn't and you'll see it used against you eventually.
 

Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
There's a much shorter simplification.

The alt-right finds and praises people who aren't fully committed to one side to add them to their side.
The ctrl-left finds and then ostracizes people who aren't fully committed to one side to remove them from theirs.

It shouldn't be hard to guess why the former was quite effective despite their despicable underlying worldviews.
I'm using the term "ctrl-left" tongue-in-cheek, in case someone wants to froth at me for being "alt-right" in an example of massive irony.

The twitter thread explains quite clearly that what you're talking about is exactly the way that people do not want to listen to those who are targeted and then when they continously refuse to understand why it's a problem that they don't listen, they start getting red-pilled because those nice, comfortable nazis tells them that it's the "ctrl+left" that's the problem.
 

Straight Edge

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
813
Because violence is the answer right?

I see the word fascism thrown around a lot these days and that word basically means to forcefully suppress all views but your own.
Looking around social media and posts from forums like this one we should all heed caution not to become the thing we are against.
Pretty soon you'll get to point where it's not just about doing good it will be about whose version of good is the " best " no matter what.

Against Nazis? Yes violence is the answer. Anything less is cowardice. Lives are on the line.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,432
Yes, pointing out that you willingly misconstrued someone else's post , and then used it to make vague generalisations about people while trying to exit the conversation is "hurling abuse"
I'd really love for you to explain in detail to me how is that "hurling abuse". I'm genuinely curious.

I didn't misconstrued anything. Go back few pages and read comments on Joe Rogan. Ridiculous stuff.
And as for 'hurling abuse' (and to quench your genuine curiosity) go and read your first post where you quoted me.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
The twitter thread explains quite clearly that what you're talking about is exactly the way that people do not want to listen to those who are targeted and then when they continously refuse to understand why it's a problem that they don't listen, they start getting red-pilled because those nice, comfortable nazis tells them that it's the "ctrl+left" that's the problem.

The underlying point remains valid. I think we're in a moment of transition, where values are (rightfully) updated and changed on almost a daily basis, but we're not really giving people time to adapt and interiorize those values. You can't ask a 45-50 years old person to go from "maybe those homosexuals I've always been told were deviants aren't actually bad people" to "transgendered individuals should be considered the same as cisgendered ones and actually receive help in order to tackle the issues their biological nature causes them instead of being vilified for it" in a matter of minutes. What we do right now is take a person, even someone who's striving to be one of the "good guys" and scan everything they've said and thought in the last 10 years, and if anything blips red we're ready to espunge them from the club and label them whatever buzzword fits (fascist/mysoginist/transphobic/etc).

The world is changing, and it's changing for the best, but we need to give some time for people to adapt. We can't label anyone who's transitioning toward the new, better values but isn't there yet or that in the past had ideas that conflict with these values instantly as a monster or an undesireable because that basically equates to pushing them in the arms of those guys who will tell them they were right all along.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,643
You mean today or also back then as well?
Both. Nazi = evil. Full stop.
I don't get folks who say that republicans, trump supporters etc are literally Nazis but aren't finding and confronting them on the street and at their homes. I did jail time for fighting actual swastika wearing skinheads in my youth. This sounds like more talk without action.
Violence on any scale would work in their favor right now, gradual deplatforming and shaming, a blue wave for midterms, and protesting is going to serve the cause much better right now. If we jump to violence it will be met with violence and our military is largely republican and so are the police, aside from all the other shit they have wrong with them. Plus, they are being confronted and shamed. Look at Charlottesville, someone literally died fighting Nazis. There are protests all the time. People are being reported to their employers for espousing hateful rhetoric and subsequently losing their jobs. People are being outed. Nazis are being punched.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
I didn't misconstrued anything. Go back few pages and read comments on Joe Rogan. Ridiculous stuff.
And as for 'hurling abuse' (and to quench your genuine curiosity) go and read your first post where you quoted me.
I read the comments. That's why I called you out on it. You have done nothing but constantly misconstruing what anyone says.
Just like you're trying to do now. Apparently me pointing out that you should be uncomfortable with Peterson spreading neo Nazi conspiracy garbage is now considered "hurling abuse".
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
During and after Gamergate, I've seen so many fall into this trap and there are already a bunch of them on this site as well who are fulfilling the role of "alt-lite" because they feel that the left is mean, but the far-right people are nice and welcoming. You may even find some of these cases in this very thread.

IrishNinja I think this deserves to be in the OP if you feel like it

There's an easy way to counter this, of course. Don't be a dick when people are being approached this way. Don't immediately jump to calling people who are experimenting with these ideas nazis or nazi supporters or nazi enablers or whatever. Engage with them and discuss with them why what they're being told is wrong - or encourage them to work to that point themselves, which is more likely to be productive. The strategy only works because the allies and friends of the target are attacking and beleaguering them. Take that away and it falls to pieces.