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Retro AV Thread |OT| RGB, CRTs, Upscalers, and More
- Thread starter ShinJohnpv
- Start date
I had no idea DOS games were in 320x200, so my statements about scaling are much less useful for going all the way to 4K. That's some stretching a postage stamp into the size of a blanket right there.
To be fair, 320x200 isn't exactly that different from the 320x240-or-so that 240p games typically work with, aside from shaving off 12,800 pixels vertically and using non-square pixels to make up the difference.
It also makes it a nightmare getting a faithful image on fixed pixel display devices with DOSBOX and ScummVM, which to this day don't have great scaling in the main builds. It even causes issues getting a good image on a CRT unless you fiddle with the vertical and horizontal size controls.
Discovered today that the X900E does not like the Framemeister on HDMI 3 when you enable enhanced format for HDMI. For whatever reason the sound doesn't work. As soon as I turned it off sound came back.The Framemeister does work fine on HDMI 4 though, and I assume 1 as well.
So, what HDTVs can someone recommend that doing 240p over component well?
Ive heard Samsungs, but no site seems to have good enough spec sheets to tell which model to pick.
Bonus points if it's 4K.
Ive heard Samsungs, but no site seems to have good enough spec sheets to tell which model to pick.
Bonus points if it's 4K.
I've been pretty happy with how my X900E does it. It's not Framemeister sharp, but it's not bad at all.
Basically all I want to do is be able to hook up PS2 and play PSone games over component. Maybe SNES with those HD Retrovision cables.
Mere compatibility is an upgrade for me.
It works perfectly for that exact scenario. One of the first things I tried was PS1 games on my PS2 over component.
I'm thinking of dabbling with HDMI capture of retro games via my framemeister mini.
IO Data Capture Device
It's a little out of my price range for the next few months, but this should work right?
IO Data Capture Device
It's a little out of my price range for the next few months, but this should work right?
OP
OP
The framemeister puts out a standard signal. So any device that can capture a 720p or 1080p signal will work. I personally use the El Gato HD60 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MIQ40JQ/?tag=era0f0-20 and have great results with it.
I actually managed to find an even cheaper one here:
The one I linked apparently comes with video editing software, which I don't currently have (I used to use some janky old JP software that's popular, or was, among JP uploaders, but it stopped working with Windows 10).
Editing software that comes with capture cards is usually quite weak, but Sony Vegas 12 should be under $30 and I think Vegas 14 was in a recent humble bundle so I bet ebay is flooded with people selling off codes. By all means get the software and see if it works for you, but if the software is a deal breaker just grab Vegas (I like 12 Platinum the most, but it doesn't support resolutions over 1080p60, 13 added up to 4K60 but the interface got much worse).
Try from MLiG had a live Periscope chat earlier today where he tried the new GCHD HDMI adapter. I just started watching it.
https://www.pscp.tv/w/1nAKEWgZgBOJL
https://www.pscp.tv/w/1nAKEWgZgBOJL
It's got an aspect ratio issue. Compare SMB at 20 minutes (HDMI) and 40 minutes (OSSC). Note that round objects are 'skinny' via HDMI.
This may be dependent on internal rendering resolution of the game being played. Or not.
Hopefully it can be fixed via firmware.
Thats too bad the line doubler doesn't work for 480p. Don't know why Try turned RGB limited off... does that default it to YCbCr? Hmmm...
Lots to sort through, so just want to leave a simple question. I have a cheapo Sanyo CRT, is the best picture quality capable with my Genesis 1 just with component cables?
If in the US, assuming your Sanyo has component, then yes. The only place to find Genesis 1 component cables will be HD Retrovision and as is often the case they are currently sold out. The cables sell for around $55 and you need an adapter that costs $8 for the Genesis 1. Alternatively you could grab an RGB-to-Component box that will accept EuroSCART RGB signals and output Component video, allowing you to pretty much hook anything up to it and play in glorious 240p. Those boxes are usually about $100, but a much better investment if you plan to add other consoles since nothing before the PS2 had component video out. You would also need to get a Genesis 1 RGB EuroSCART cable with CSYNC (this is usually called out on most SCART cable sites these days) for about $30. Sure, it's twice the price, but then you'll be ready to plug any RGB SCART console into your CRT.
If you want a SCART to Component box, they can be hard to find but I looked on eBay and the guy who sold me mine is still making them in limited quantities. $85 shipped: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCART-to-C...191876964053?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 Just grab this, buy all your cables as euroSCART RGB with CSYNC (Sometimes called clear sync/raw sync) and you can get component video versions of any signal. Many consoles, especially Sega consoles, natively support RGB SCART.
If you just want Genesis and SNES, the HD Retrovision cables are probably your best bet since they're plug-and-play 240p and the quality is fantastic. The trick is finding them in stock or grabbing one used for a good price.
The line doubler does work for 480p, but capture cards and most TVs won't accept that odd resolution signal (I think it's 1440x960 or it may just be a vertical doubler and output 720x960). It's also probably why he turned RGB limited off, to better support either the capture card, computer monitor, or both. Streaming retro can often force you to put in settings counter to what you would use when playing offline.
Try said you lose the ability of the OSSC to do 960p with the HDMI mod. Is he mistaken? Also he toggled RGB limited while capturing. But I'm more interested in what actual color space that sets it to when turned off. I think I'd prefer the ability to set the device to YCbCr in some way as that's in line with the GC's native color space.
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I took a look at the OSSC forums (videogameperfection.com), and I've studied the product extensively prior to making my big OSSC vs. Framemeister purchase, and finally the Junker HQ wiki, 480p has a line doubler mode (480px2). Granted, this is for the newest version of the hardware, which has an HDMI output so clearly Try has an older version and it's possible that this is an adapter limitation (doubt it) or he needs to update the firmware (more likely). Also keep in mind that when the My Life With Gaming guys talk they clearly aren't that naturally tech savvy, but they are great at researching, testing things out, and giving definitive answers. This means that when they say something, it's almost always accurate, but their knowledge can at times be limited. At the same time I think that's true of most of us (myself included) where you try to know the most you can and there are always gaps. In this regard, though, I would think Try would know. I still go back to the fact that according to the OSSC documentation the output resolution is 1440x960 when using 480px2 and that's just not going to fly with many HDTVs. I also don't know their capture card, but I think it may be the Avermedia LiveGamer Extreme, where people are saying many of the modes don't work so great. Apparently 240px3 (outputs at 960p) doesn't always fair so well and we may see worse out of 480p doubled. I also saw that the Elgato is very picky with many of the modes as well. Who knows. I use a Startech USB3HDCap with Micomsoft drivers and that fairs well, but it's also one of the few capture cards to support 240p so I bet it can support the others by simple integer scaling on expected resolution (it goes up 1080p60). When I watched the scaler alternatives video I noticed they were a bit hard on the OSSC compared to what many others had said, so it may have been a capture thing or it may have just been their displays, they admit to only working with what they have. Also the Framemeister outputs to standard TV resolutions and thus makes it much more compatible with both displays and capture hardware, so that's definitely a biggie.
As for color space, I thought I saw "RGB Limited" to "off" and I don't see him toggling to on. The Framemeister and OSSC only output to RGB Full or RGB Limited and depending on your display you toggle what you want. I think he kept it off because he was sending it to a capture card on a PC, which would be RGB full. He very well may have sent the original signal to a TV prior to sending it through the scaler or he's simply using a PC display to play the game, either way it needs RGB Full. If you're going to a TV you should use RGB Limited.
There's also that endless debate waging online where people say that because newer TVs support RGB Full we should use it, but game consoles (even today) use the RGB Limited color space to create images. If you force RGB Full out of your console and RGB Full on your TV, it will work but you're just converting RGB Limited to RGB Full and gaining nothing. Who knows, perhaps he prefers to do that.
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I know the OSSC doubles 480p because I own one. I must have confused things by mindlessly saying "HDMI mod." It's become a bad habit of mine since loosely following the project when it began. I meant the GCHD adapter that Try is using in the video. He says it won't do 960p. That's what I've been talking about, sorry. You spent all that time looking things up and typing all that, and I feel bad now. Heh
Anyway he plays with the line doubler of the GCHD with 480i and 240p games, and (as I pointed out before) he says the device won't do 960p like the OSSC can. Meaning the doubler of the GCHD doesn't work on 480p games.
Also, a slight correction on color spaces for you: Framemeister does do YCbCr out.
960p seems to work with all of the current LG TVs (LCD and OLED), and both of Try's TVs, though I don't know what he has.
It's wonderful. On my OLED it makes 480p Wii and Dreamcast games look like you're playing them on a giant 480p CRT if you use simulated scanlines at 25% strength.
Since I only use a real Gamecube (instead of real Wii) for Game Boy Interface, what I'd like is 240p to 720p (which then can integer scale to 2160p by the display device). Can GCHD do that?
It's wonderful. On my OLED it makes 480p Wii and Dreamcast games look like you're playing them on a giant 480p CRT if you use simulated scanlines at 25% strength.
Since I only use a real Gamecube (instead of real Wii) for Game Boy Interface, what I'd like is 240p to 720p (which then can integer scale to 2160p by the display device). Can GCHD do that?
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Oh no, don't feel bad at all. Either way, I've often found my answer in random forums so ideally these comments could be beneficial to someone someday. As for the OSSC info, thanks a bunch for the insight, I'm starting to think there may be strength in picking one up now that they are readily in stock. I didn't realize he was using the GCHD interface, somehow I missed that and thought he was using the OSSC interface, so thanks for the correction. At $150 the GCHD is too close to the price of merely getting the HDMI mod so it wasn't in the cards for me, but many retro gamers justifiably don't want to solder or have to hire someone they don't know very well on the web.
As for the Framemeister, I didn't know it can do YCbCr out, I'll have to look into that. Still learning the nuances of that clever little device.
I use the same SCART to Component box. Mine came defective. The seller guided me to do some troubleshooting, then I sent it back, and he sent me a version with a different design. Has worked great so far! I use it with a Saturn and a my Genesis 2/3 and 32x consoles.
Cheap CRT only tend to have composite, but if it does have Component, I would also recommend to go to SCART/Component route. The Genesis consoles have terrible composite video quality, some worse than others, and the jump to RGB is really great and noticable. The Genesis 2 RGB Scart cable can be used on all Genesis 2, 3, 32x consoles.
Guys, anyone here have any experience with the Extron line doublers or scalers? They seem to be cheap and available. I really want to capture video from 240p sources, but all options seem to be either really expensive, takes too much time to be delivered or just plain ugly results.
I already have a Lenkeng Scart to HDMI, and while it does detect 240p and looks sharp and colorful, it becomes a blurry mess once there is any motion since it still deinterlacing it. No drop shadow effects either.
I really would like it to simply capture video with an El Gato HD. I don't mind any delay in processing, since I would be using a distribuitor to play on a CRT while capturing.
I already have a Lenkeng Scart to HDMI, and while it does detect 240p and looks sharp and colorful, it becomes a blurry mess once there is any motion since it still deinterlacing it. No drop shadow effects either.
I really would like it to simply capture video with an El Gato HD. I don't mind any delay in processing, since I would be using a distribuitor to play on a CRT while capturing.
Okay, so I thought I would ask the question here, since there is no Wii OT and I don't think I need to create a new thread for this.
So my TV has only 1 Component input and my Wii is currently connected to it. Mostly for playing Gamecube games. I wanted to connect my PS2 via Component to my TV so I was thinking about buying one of those Wii2HDMI adapters for my Wii.
There are many different adapters available, most cost about 10€ more or less. I know not pick one with an build in upscaler due to additional lag. So my questions are:
1. Does a Wii2HDMI adapter introduce lag anyway (even the ones without a build in upscaler) and
2. How is the picture quality? Like Component or can the adapter somehow make the picture worse?
So my TV has only 1 Component input and my Wii is currently connected to it. Mostly for playing Gamecube games. I wanted to connect my PS2 via Component to my TV so I was thinking about buying one of those Wii2HDMI adapters for my Wii.
There are many different adapters available, most cost about 10€ more or less. I know not pick one with an build in upscaler due to additional lag. So my questions are:
1. Does a Wii2HDMI adapter introduce lag anyway (even the ones without a build in upscaler) and
2. How is the picture quality? Like Component or can the adapter somehow make the picture worse?
I highly recommend the OSSC for your Wii. If your TV can accept 960p from OSSC from Wii, you will get the best picture quality currently available from the Wii.
Far better than using a Wii U to play Wii games,
480p->960p from OSSC->1920p on your TV set (with thin black bars since it isn't full 2160p) is *the* best for real hardware.
Iirc, those adapters still degraded PQ even if they lacked a scaler, Get a good quality switcher or use a reciever to get additional component inputs.
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OP
OP
I'll second what Televator said. All those current adapters do a very poor job, a lot of them also don't recognize 240p as such and process it as 480i. You're probably going to end up with a much worse picture than you currently have. Supposedly some of the GCVideo HDMI adapters are beginning to be modified to be used on Wii. If you must have HDMI out for your Wii this would be the way to go, since it's properly reading the digital signals. Otherwise grab yourself a component switcher.
Anywhere I can get a good quality S-Video cable for my N64? I've read a lot of stories about buying random ones at the store or on eBay and being terrible quality.
Hey all. I was just sorting my SFC carts and saw a little "DOLBY SURROUND" logo on my copy of Fatal Fury Special. I was intrigued, so I did some googling.
Turns out, yeah, the SNES/SFC is totally capable of early ProLogic I style Dolby Surround! I had no idea. I'm moving next month, but when I do I think I might pick up a new (old) receiver that can decode ProLogic I & II for all my old consoles. So far I've been using a relatively modern Sony STR-DE197 and running them in stereo, while everything post-Dreamcast is on the modern AV setup in the living room. But I think it would be really fun to experiment with Dolby Surround from the SNES, PS1, Saturn, N64, GC, Wii, & PS2 (Xbox had proper 5.1 DD via optical so that's on the modern setup). I also use my retro games station for VHS/Beta/LD so this is starting to sound super fun.
Hoping the Super NT (only days away!!) will be able to make that work over HDMI!
Anyone else experiment with retro surround sound? I'm big into vintage hi-fi as it is, so I've had a fun day geeking out about this stuff. Figured it might be fun to dig into the "A" part of "Retro AV" for a bit if anyone's interested!
Turns out, yeah, the SNES/SFC is totally capable of early ProLogic I style Dolby Surround! I had no idea. I'm moving next month, but when I do I think I might pick up a new (old) receiver that can decode ProLogic I & II for all my old consoles. So far I've been using a relatively modern Sony STR-DE197 and running them in stereo, while everything post-Dreamcast is on the modern AV setup in the living room. But I think it would be really fun to experiment with Dolby Surround from the SNES, PS1, Saturn, N64, GC, Wii, & PS2 (Xbox had proper 5.1 DD via optical so that's on the modern setup). I also use my retro games station for VHS/Beta/LD so this is starting to sound super fun.
Hoping the Super NT (only days away!!) will be able to make that work over HDMI!
Anyone else experiment with retro surround sound? I'm big into vintage hi-fi as it is, so I've had a fun day geeking out about this stuff. Figured it might be fun to dig into the "A" part of "Retro AV" for a bit if anyone's interested!
I've always made use of Pro Logic on any game that supports it as the highest output. I recommend trying to set the reciever to DPLII Music mode if that's the option you can find. Even remastered games that forget to remaster the audio into a 5.1 mix on modern consoles tend to still have the DPL audio intact (Okami UHD). Most people are still geting 2.0 from that game without knowing they should change the settings on their receiver and Xbox.
Knowing that, I'd say it should still work on the Super Nt
Totally. That happened to me with the PS4 port of Resident Evil 4 last year. That bad boy was still in PL II.
I'm pretty sure that Majora's Mask and Factor 5 N64 games also use DPL. I wonder if anyone's compiled a list...
Sorry to reply to a post from nearly a month ago, but did you have to do anything to get it to work? I have HD Retrovision cables for my SNES, but I just get a black screen when using them. At best, for some reason, unplugging the middle audio cable results in a black-and-white image with no sound.
I didn't have to do anything special. I haven't tried a SNES though. It could be sync issues, since the SNES runs at faster than standard NTSC.
Ummm... yeah. lol
Its better than good. The vid shows how awesome it is.
- Interpolation allows for correct aspect ratio on modern TVs while avoiding distortion while in motion. TMK, no other device features this.
- FPGA so accurate to the original hardware, it kinda edges out other revisions of "real" SNES's. Thats not even mentioning the inherent advantage of being a fully digital device.
-No lag, for those concerned, with imperceptible game speed tax.
-Will work on CRTs with a TBA HDMI to analog add on.
- 200 bucks compared to the Nt Mini @ $450
will this beat original snes 1chip?
i have a non 1chip, a 1chip and snes jr.
it looks interesting... but i have so many snes not sure this is better to get.
Better than my RGB modded SNES Jr hooked up to my OSSC with HDMI, that's for sure.
Can't get clean HDMI audio from the OSSC with SNES.
i guess i'll wait to see how much the hdmi to analog adaptor costs.
looks very promising to CRT.
i like the price point.
looks very promising to CRT.
i like the price point.
thanks Televator i need to sit down on watch the episode. i was mobile before.
looking at the pic and a quick comment prior to watching the Super NT colors looks off on the screenshot posted. but let me watch the episode for commenting further.
it is a good price and hopefully we'll be able to play turbo and genny games on it.
looking at the pic and a quick comment prior to watching the Super NT colors looks off on the screenshot posted. but let me watch the episode for commenting further.
it is a good price and hopefully we'll be able to play turbo and genny games on it.
Looks like I won't get a CRT any time soon. I found a 21" Trinitron nearby but my gf is very opposed to a CRT coming into the house. D: She has a point that it would have to live in a separate room, and I wouldn't go there to play games.
With that in mind, I'm reconsidering something like a Framemeister. I hope something better comes along.
I'm going to Japan in a couple of months and I'm torn on whether it would be very bad to pick up any retro consoles there, because the TV input is too much of a headache.
With that in mind, I'm reconsidering something like a Framemeister. I hope something better comes along.
I'm going to Japan in a couple of months and I'm torn on whether it would be very bad to pick up any retro consoles there, because the TV input is too much of a headache.
I remember King Arthur's Men on SNES (of all games) being featured on the TV show Bad Influence and they made a big deal about the surround sound, despite the fact that most people were still using RF for their SNES in the UK
As much as I doubt I'll find a place for a Super NT in my current disposition, I'm curious as to what this entails; would it output 480i/576i or would it be able to output 240p/whatever-resolution-such-and-such-a-game-isp?
Though IMO if it had a VGA port that could output 240p-1080p RGBHV and sold adapters/converters for every other analog connection, it'd probably have been much easier and still less outputs than the NT mini had - not many HDMI to VGA converters that supports 240p at 60hz anyway (one I had worked at 120hz).