A women not wearing a top in the UK would cause a problem in the UK, and from what I've heard would cause a problem in most of Europe as well, unless it was on the beach. Boobs are still sexualised in Europe, I mean c'mon.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Are there women casually walking around without tops on? I get it if it's a beach, but around towns and the like? I doubt it.
I still wouldnt consider her the main baddie, just a person who has a McGuffin crystal which corrupted her (because.... reasons unless DA:I talked about it (i forgot alot about the stupid red lyrium crystal thing) just a "Hey here is the last person of power you gotta take out because both sides arguement actually happened in this game" (aka both sides have shit heels in them ), DA2 was a bad game :/ but it still had a few characters that i liked, Aveline was a great character, (seriously most of DA2's cast should die/be imprisoned for shit they do)
Ha, something about the pose of the leftmost one made me think it was that one.Speaking of FF, I just opened up the FFXII Collector's Edition the other day and I looked at the judges..
and I thought (thinking of the posts in this thread regarding characters from Fire Emblem and XC2), "Isn't it cool that you could tell someone that one of those is a woman and they wouldn't be able to immediately tell who it was?"
It's Drace, the last one on the right end.
In before someone sees this and goes, "Ah HA! Stupid SJWs just want women covered! Bunch of prudes!"
I live in Spain and if I went out with my tits out I'd get fined by the police for an amount ranging between 100€ and 600€. So no.
i dont think people disagree with that, i think people forget that men are not as objectified to the absurd amount of scenes games have for women. Best way to show an objectified scene with a man is that scene modded for MGS V where they replace quiet's body with Ocelot.
I should clarify. I mean, the idea that women and men have different ways in which their sexuality is traditionally accentuated.
The red crystal is actually red lyrium, which is lyrium which is corrupted with the blight (bad news - the horrible stuff in the first game which explains why it's able to corrupt people and also why people hear a weird song from it like the wrdens do from an archdemon. As only living things can be corrupted by the blight, it means that lyrium is actually a living thing. We find out in The Descent DLC, that lyrium is actually the blood from the Titans (i.e the Stone), which are giant stone creatures (?) that make up the landmass of Thedas and that Orzammer hushed this up (underground Dwarves worship the stone) as they relay on the Lyrium trade with the surface (for example with the Chantry which supplies their mages with it and gives it to the Templers so they get powers but also get addicted to it kinda like Heroin but worse as it eventually makes them lose their mind)..
In addition to what has already been said, another big different is "who is this for?".
Yes, some male characters are sexualized, but who for? A sexy male character is rarely made sexy explicitly for a female audience. Most audiences are assumed male as default and that sexy male character works as male fantasy - as in, men like to feel sexually desirable and here's a sexually desirable male character for you to play as. These characters own their sexuality, are comfortable with it. Rarely are sexualized female characters treated like this. They aren't directed at a female audience wanting to feel sexually desirable, but a male audience wanting to be serviced. Female characters, outside of femme-fatale types, are often unaware of their own flanderized bodies and costumes, or even depicted as being embarrassed or irritated, or uncomfortable if attention is called to their bodies. Bayonetta is pretty much the only character I can name who owns her own sexuality, though I'll leave others to hash out her merits.
It's not just that women suffer sexualization more than men, but women get taken to clownish extreme, their visual designs often have nothing to do with their narrative designs or even work against them to cater to titillation, and male characters are rarely sexualized with the same intent as female characters.
Bioware 'both sides' the hell out of the mage vs Templar conflict. Little hard to root for mages since nearly every single one became a blood mage. I get the 'desperate times' mentality but the execution was so sloppy. Like way to validate everyone's fear of mage, guys. Of course the Templars being pseudo nazis didn't help either
Oooh, and get me started on Anders and his story line, gah!
TBF, one of the things I liked about the game is how women had a variety of roles and weren't stuck in the usual fantasy roles. Many female characters held positions of power and were respected(mostly).
Also, some of the armor design could've been better, but they at least made sense in context.
I'd ask you to give a few examples so we know what we're discussing. You can give some female examples and I'll in turn give male examples. For this discussion I think we can rule out anime and jpop characters, which were never meant to be realistic in the first place, and are more decidedly a japanese culture thing (Sailor Moon, Catherine, et al). It feels like we're talking about western characters. Also, Dead or Alive volleyball would fall into that category, which as no defense and everyone is already in agreement that it's sexploitation.
Also, I'd ask that we don't try to decide for ourselves what is attractive for what audience. I know plenty of women who are attracted to large bulky men (think The Rock) and that's prevalent in video gaming. In addition, we can rule out "games are directed exclusively for a male audience" which seems sexist in itself. Plenty of women buy and play video games. About half of my gaming friends are female.
They actually do have an in-lore reason for all the mages being bat-shit crazy in Kirkwall (actually explains why everyone is crazy in Kirkwall but it's worse for the mages). Basically the veil is very thin in Kirkwall cus all of the suffering and blood that went on (it was the Slave trading city in the Tevinter Imperium long ago) and there's also suggestions there were massive sacrifice rituals going on in Kirkwall during the Tevinter Imperium. This will explain it better :http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Enigma_of_Kirkwall. To be fair it's a side quest and is mainlyu explained in codices so really easily to miss.
Just have to zero in on this.
Women getting into video games that were directed exclusively for a male audience... does not suddenly detract from the fact that the games in question were "directed exclusively for a male audience". An end result that goes against their original intentions is mere happenstance, not something that negates the original intent. Dead or Alive is probably the biggest example in this regard. There is absolutely no question that the women are designed explicitly to appeal to the male gaze, and yet somehow the game manages to court a sizable female audience (to which I won't speculate as to why - I, personally, am not a fan of the series).
There are obviously plenty of games out there that were not directed in this lopsided fashion - Ubisoft games in particular are probably the standout in this regard. Western developers in general seem more eager to spread out and go for a more general audience, as opposed to the more male-dominated Japanese devs that seem to have trouble go for any audience that isn't stereotypical Japanese otaku. The fact is... the latter exists, and it is not sexist to admit that they do exist. Women are given short shrift in these games and it's no accident that we are.
I don't even know who this guy is and that pic alone makes me not like him. It's a shirt that says "I'm an idiot, and I celebrate my idiocy."
"Give me examples but not the most prevalent examples that count because culture."
No, I have other things to do. I've offered up a perspective that you are free to explore on your own.
That's not relevant to what I'm saying, nor did I say anything about what women are or are not attracted to, only that sexy male characters also work as a player insert without demeaning or objectifying the character. And of course women are part of the audience. I'm a women and have been playing games since before most people on this board crapped their first pair of diapers, but I and my fellow female game enthusiasts have had to fight just to be seen as part of the gaming audience. You damn betcha' male is seen as the mainstream default by publishers and many developers, not to mention many fans.
One thing to bear in mind is, men are portrayed as large, bulky and athletic because those are characteristics traditionally associated with heroic characters. The perception of such characters being sexually attractive due to these traits is a by-product of this, rather than the main intention.
I would offer instead that you skipped a step. large, bulky and athletic are traditionally associated with men, and men are traditionally associated with being heroic. It's a small but important distinction. Removing the "being muscular and giant" part from being a hero would alter this perception and the body type would revert to the more primal sexual exploitation aspect. Women are not seen are the "hero" as much period, and that is what is thankfully changing. Which will change the former as well.
For instance, Aeon Flux was f'ing awesome. Not really that sexual, other than she had a womanly shape and it was a weird show. She was a hero and a mastermind. And that was decades ago.
I'm Australian, topless women on the beaches of Sydney is not uncommon, but a topless woman walking through a mall or down a main street? Nah.
Also what do you think about the rest of my post?
I sort of answered it in another post.
"Also, I'd ask that we don't try to decide for ourselves what is attractive for what audience. I know plenty of women who are attracted to large bulky men (think The Rock) and that's prevalent in video gaming."
It's been said above that "it's not the primary reason why men are huge" but that doesn't make it any better. And it's also said without backing - it's a theory.
You're a man and coming into a thread where women have already told you that a lot of these characters are not designed for women. Who exactly is deciding what women find attractive?
Had no idea this existed. Interesting. Would like an erotic video game following that rule set too
http://www.feministpornawards.com
Feminism and porn make interesting bedfellows, so to speak. There are as many different opinions on feminist porn as there are on feminism and porn combined! Some find the term an oxymoron: there cannot possibly a feminist answer to porn. What could possibly make porn feminist?
Here is our interpretation of the term "feminist porn". Since this is a growing field with increasing interest and controversy, the following are elements of this complex and diverse film genre:
Feminist porn can be:
We recognize that there are many varied perspectives on feminism and porn in our audience. We believe that everyone deserves a sexy movie regardless of their feminist interpretation or ideology.
Some common misconceptions about feminist porn:
– Only lesbian: Feminist Porn celebrates the diversity of sexuality, including straight films too!
– Man-hating: Everyone deserves pleasure the way they like it, men included.
– Hugging and kissing: Styles of all kinds of porn -including the feminist variety- range from mild to wild
– Only appeals to women: People of all genders, sexes and orientations enjoy feminist porn!
– Tattoos and hairy armpits: Performers reflect the diversity of people in the world: some do, many don't!
Another Definition
Tristan Taormino is a sex educator, feminist pornographer, and co-editor of The Feminist Porn Book. She defines feminist pornography as "dedicated to gender equality and social justice. Feminist pornography is porn that is generated in a fair manner, signifying that performers are paid a reasonable salary and most importantly treated with care and esteem; their approval, security, and well-being are vital, and what they bring to the production is appreciated. Feminist porn searches to expand the ideas about desire, beauty, gratification, and power through unconventional representations, aesthetics, and film making styles. The overall aim of feminist porn is to empower the performers who produce it and the people who view it."
http://www.feministpornawards.com
Feminism and porn make interesting bedfellows, so to speak. There are as many different opinions on feminist porn as there are on feminism and porn combined! Some find the term an oxymoron: there cannot possibly a feminist answer to porn. What could possibly make porn feminist?
Here is our interpretation of the term "feminist porn". Since this is a growing field with increasing interest and controversy, the following are elements of this complex and diverse film genre:
- Actors are treated with respect, paid fairly, given choice and ethical working conditions, empowered in their work
- Directors collaborate with and incorporate the actor's own sexual desires and fantasies (makes for better scenes too!)
- It expands the boundaries of sexual representation on film and challenges stereotypes especially of women and marginalized communities
- Realistic pleasure is depicted
Feminist porn can be:
- Edgy or soft
- High production or low
- Storyline or none
- Straight, queer, cis, trans, bi or a combination thereof
- Made by, for and includes people of any gender/ sex, size, age, race and ethnicity, ability, orientation, and desires (including men)
- And of course it is hot!
We recognize that there are many varied perspectives on feminism and porn in our audience. We believe that everyone deserves a sexy movie regardless of their feminist interpretation or ideology.
Some common misconceptions about feminist porn:
– Only lesbian: Feminist Porn celebrates the diversity of sexuality, including straight films too!
– Man-hating: Everyone deserves pleasure the way they like it, men included.
– Hugging and kissing: Styles of all kinds of porn -including the feminist variety- range from mild to wild
– Only appeals to women: People of all genders, sexes and orientations enjoy feminist porn!
– Tattoos and hairy armpits: Performers reflect the diversity of people in the world: some do, many don't!
Another Definition
Tristan Taormino is a sex educator, feminist pornographer, and co-editor of The Feminist Porn Book. She defines feminist pornography as "dedicated to gender equality and social justice. Feminist pornography is porn that is generated in a fair manner, signifying that performers are paid a reasonable salary and most importantly treated with care and esteem; their approval, security, and well-being are vital, and what they bring to the production is appreciated. Feminist porn searches to expand the ideas about desire, beauty, gratification, and power through unconventional representations, aesthetics, and film making styles. The overall aim of feminist porn is to empower the performers who produce it and the people who view it."
This is completely absurd. All those guidelines are fine, it's just that calling it "feminist porn" is completely ridiculous. Might as well talk about a feminist pillow or a feminist body wash.
Can you give me any examples of a game that treats a male character the way Quiet, Cindy (FFXV) or even Bayonetta are treated?
I'm not deciding anything. I'm giving my anecdotal experience just like anyone else. And I don't know who here is a man, woman, or any other sex/gender. How would I know that?
However I find it odd that you feel like a thread should be created where the OP and supporters just talk AT others and don't expect opposing discourse. What is the point of a thread like that?
If you click on people's names their profile pops up, including gender if they've specified it.
I feel like that hurts the Mages vs Templar conflict more since it means mages are dangerous beings that can be easily susceptible to fade spirits/demons more than they already are.
This doesn't help with the ending where it didn't matter who the PC sided with, both sides betrayed you, one being more unnecessary than the other, aka the mage leader.
UK here. That's not true unless you're on a nudist beach or something. Up until recently the Sun newspaper had a topless page three girl, that's probably the most mainstream example, but using that as an example of equality is ridiculous.
As mentioned, Japanese/Jpop RPGs is a different animal altogether. I don't try to defend that culture here. I've never played MGS, I had to look up who Quiet is. As mentioned by others above, Bayonetta is empowering and owns her sexuality.
Monkey in Enslaved comes to mind. His character model is just a bodybuilder without a shirt. Marcus Phoenix for sure is a monster body-wise. Some here say that's not for women, but again in my experience the women I play with who are not LGBT love it.
Alright. Please confirm that breasts are NOT as big a deal there as here. Because I've been there, and though I can't pretend to know more than you do about your country, they're usually just treated as funny or no big deal in tv/movies/culture across the pond.
Thanks. However, that's not something I'm going to do. I don't usually care what gender I'm talking to. Though it may make sense in this thread.
Then again people can put whatever they want, if they put anything at all.
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It's useful if you want to refer to someone but don't know what pronoun to use. That's mostly why I use it.
Ok so this thread is 100% including JRPGs and Japanese games as they are some of the worst offenders and the most adamantly defended on the internet. So it's cool if you don't want to include them but that's not what this thread is about, essentially.
That is the central theme of the mages throughout the games though is that they are dangerous. It's a choice of do you restrict the rights and liberties of a few to protect the many (specially when you can't be sure if the mage will or not be a problem) and I don't think there is an easy solution. It's right to want freedom and rights for mages. It's also right to want to protect the populace and thus have some limitations on the mages. The question is where do you draw the line which is what basically the Mage vs Templar conflict comes about.
Note: I also add that Act 3 in DA2 is not that well excuted compared to the others and they put the "betrayal" for the mage leader cus they thought they needed two boss fights (though the mage leader is not wholaly innocent wither. i.e he knew about the mage that
kills your mother
Please stop this. The comparison between the sexes in terms of treatment is a non-starter.
Additionally, when arguing about who it's for, your experience doesn't count for much.
What does it means that breasts are a big deal there in the US? (and this is more a general ask for anyone).
Like, I'm constantly seeing Hollywood movies or series with tits everywhere, it's no different than European movies in that regard.
Btw, I'm from Spain and as psychowave said you're going to get fined if you walk around with your tits out. Hell, you can even be fined if you're a man going around shirtless in Barcelona !
They are a big deal and generally very sexualised. I would get charged for public indecency if I went around the streets with my top off in the UK. It's not that different from America.
How are these characters treated like Cindy or or Quiet?? And as a non-LGBT woman I can assure you that they are not particularly attractive, lol.
Also, for the last time, the point isn't that male characters are attractive or not, it's about how sexualized and objectified they are. Marcus Fenix being bulky has nothing to do with how the game/camera treats Cindy or Quiet. And dismissing these examples because they're from Japanese games is absurd.
The only time I've seen a woman topless on a beach over here was when me and a mate accidentally holidayed at a nudist camp...
You having been to the UK doesn't mean you know much about media here. I've worked in UK publishing for twenty years, and the most common word after 'topless' is 'scandal'.
The other main treatment of topless in UK media was The Sun's (our most popular tabloid) page 3, where a 'glamour model' would be topless. That was from when Murdoch (an Australian) bought the paper in the 70s and it was finally stopped after years of campaigning against it a couple of years ago, with general management of the paper having the opinion that it reeked of 70s smut rooted in sexism (such as our Carry On films) and was old-fashioned and disrespectful.
Seriously, it's bloody cold here, it's not the beaches of the Mediterranean.
Ah. I don't refer to anyone by pronouns on message boards, usually. "you" or "they".
Looks like I didn't get that. Because J games vs. all other games are worlds apart in this.
If you don't want people to discuss things, if topics related to the post are off limits, if any personal experience doesn't matter - I'm not sure what you hope to have discussions about.
This seems to be a waste of time, so I'll bow out.
I'm not talking about outside. I'm talking about in TV/Movies mostly. It doesn't have the puritan USA restrictions (seemingly)
Yeah, quite frankly if you go around topless round here, you're likely to get pnemonia as well as arrested. I'm not sure where the idea came from the the UK/Europe is so sexually free from? I mean it may be put in our media a bit more but not overly so and would still on have to aired after the watershed time.
Well, in case you're still hanging about, walking into a thread and making a statement that ignores all of the discussion than preceded you with your own declaration for "how things are" is not a welcoming start to have a discussion, especially when that discussion has already been had. All you really need to do is read through the thread, or at the very least not ignore what people are saying to you.
This is not about people discussing or not discussing things. It's about the place from which the argument starts. You are asking for parity in a situation where there isn't any.
Honestly I feel like this talk about USA vs Europe and Japan in that regard kinda weird and maybe with an intention to try to antagonize the US. I mean, I haven't been in the US so I can't fully know but I saw plenty of nude stuff in their media. It's no different to Europe and let's not talk about Japan and their censorship of nudity (if I'm not mistaken, Game of Thrones dub is censored in Japan).
What TV/films? The Carry On films? Nothing with topless nudity is going to be shown before the watershed (around 9pm). You've now got multiple residents of a country telling you that your perception of it isn't accurate. Seriously, I studied and have worked in UK media for two decades, you're very wrong here, female topless nudity is absolutely not treated as on the same level as male topless nudity, any argument that the UK is cool with it just doesn't work when men can be topless before the watershed but not women.
Like I said, the most common word after topless here is scandal. When claiming that the UK/Europe is somehow enlightened in this matter, (never mind that equality in attitudes towards nudity still does not mean that sexism doesn't exist), you have to remember that Europe's dozens of countries differ more than US states do. A broad appeal to 'European sensibilities' in order to claim the US is 'puritan' in comparison is a very, very broad sweeping brush of a statement, as you are comparing one country to dozens. I can't speak for what media portrayals are like for any other European country but they often differ more from the UK than the UK does from the US.
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So what is your argument? Because all the goalpost shifting is giving me a headache. That Western games don't suffer from this inequality in sexualization, but that Japan does? And Japan doesn't count because "it's the culture"?
Can you elaborate because it's unclear what your argument even is. In an earlier post you acknowledged that one-sided sexualization is an issue, or at least, that it's present and one-sided towards one gender.
If you discuss in good faith people will happily engage with you, but if you persist in ignoring explanations that people give you, arbitrarily changing the goalposts or make invalid comparisons (such as Marcus Fenix when someone ask you for a male equivalent to Quiet), you will get challenged and called out. Right now, you come across as borderline trolling and arguing in bad faith.
Nudity isn't the concern here. Stop bringing up "US puritanism", it has nothing to do with unequal representation.
Honestly I think it's used as a defence for content that in all honesty would be maligned by the general public in Europe and Japan as much as in the US. It's also often used by people who are Americans so I'm just wondering that it's cus they don't know those cultures very well and here it so often that they just take it to be true? It may have been true a long time ago (maybe? It must have come from somewhere) it just isn't now.
Just because they're worse/more blatant they get dismissed? Or is this just another "Japanese culture is actually very sexually liberated" type argument?
Your personal experience, in the specific instance of whether or not male characters are sexualised in the same way as female characters, doesn't really matter, frankly. You're a man and saying "I have plenty of female friends who think blah blah" means nothing.
I can promise you that a fair amount of it comes from religion and conservatism (i.e., it's a domestic story, not one that is exaggerating an international perspective).
This is the case. But a certain subset of people like to use it as an excuse to attack feminists, because all "localization censorship" is due to us. It's also a smokescreen to try and excuse gross material.
But the problem in DA2 they portray the mages as people who are willing the go blood mage without second thought. The writing made the conflict a bit too one sided since with barely any good mages that could refute the Templar's claim. How could you feel sorry for mages when they willingly give in to demons and the like.
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