Going to take 3 seasons to get here, next season if its 12 episodes will end when Historia Reiss the lesbian monarch of eldia takes power and starts welfare programs for orphaned children.
Attack on Titan has characters analogous to the Jewish and that annoys me (massive manga spoilers)
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OP
OP
Eren's father is from the ghettos as is Eren's brother (who is coded Capo which is annoying also).
I don't think Eren was originally coded Jewish as I don't think the author had any intention of going down this path (the invasion in the context of humanity still existing makes no sense as Reiner could just tell Eren that he's being lied to and that humanity exists outside of the walls to convince him to leave and I think Eren would be willing to do that), but Eren is from a race of people who are coded Jewish.
Why would Reiner ever do that. He is (or at least was) a total die hard believer who wanted to do his mission more then anyone.
And this is pure conjecture, but I think Isayama always intended for this to be the twist and last arc.
Just Mikasa. Ackerman seems to be more like a clan.
It isn't required for people to pretend an argument is a good one when they don't think it is. "What they feel" is also secondary to the judgments and opinions formed from that feeling, and the latter is the basis for the thread title and OP.
Hiding behind feelings misrepresents what people are actually taking exception to in regards to the OP.
The problem is, that the manga portrays the Eldians as partly deserving of their fate, as in, while Titans were a useful thing at first, the Eldians came to commit horrible crimes which is why for example Taybar says that his death is deserved anyway, since they are a cursed race that shouldn't exist, so bad is what they've done in the past. That is damn fucking problematic.
The only thing that would clear the manga from that specific point is if it came out that that history is bullshit that Marley fed the Eldians, and the Taybars were just a bunch of sellouts as opposed to regretful what their people have done.
As it stands now the Eldians, who are sharing many parallels with Jews in the Nazi era, are potrayed as oppressed, but also as having earned their oppression themselves.
It's almost like you just made the case why I shouldn't be offended.
There's offensive and insensitive art, but I don't think this is it. Art appropriating basic imagery in itself is not offensive until the right context is there.
OP
OP
1. Reiner's entire mission was retrieving Eren
2. Eren has desperate curiosity about the world
3. Reiner knows a massive amount of knowledge about the world that he could reveal to Eren if Eren comes with him.
It feels like a very easy deal could have been made here where Reiner tricks Eren into leaving the island.
It would have been at least worth an attempt from Reiner.
The definition of a terrorist attack isn't dependant upon whether or not it is justified or makes logistical sense.
It's using violence to terrorize a populace to achieve a goal.
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I'm Jewish, and, Okay, I've only seen the anime, but:
The titans take the role of both classical and 16th-20th century literature monsters. Drawing parallels to the Jews leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and makes me feel uneasy.
In FMA, the very first time Scar's face is revealed and the visual parallels to the Roma are established, it is immediately explained that he has a very good reason for targeting state alchemists in serial killings; They engaged in a war of extermination against his people.
The Titans in the series are only giant zombies because the Nazis made them that way. In the lore the Titans at one point were the cradle of civilization and were actually a force of good. It wasn't until they were weaponized by the Nazis that they became this twisted form.
In fact it's a direct parallel to how Jews are treated in the modern day though not 1:1 obviously. Jews at one point had a ruling civilization and have done a lot of good for the world, then when non-Jews started to slander and villianize them - treating them as non-human - was when the sentiment was started. It was literally an artificial creation. In Attack on Titan the literally experimented on the Jews and turned them into literal monsters (that's the major difference) but by no means was it the Jews fault.
Again, why is this an issue? Why is it an issue for Holocaust imagery to be used in this context? I'd say it's completely appropriate and fair. It doesn't trivialize the issues, if anything it brings it more to light since a lot of people in Japan ares systematically raised into believing Japanese nationalist ideals, including the author of the manga itself. What he's writing actually contradicts what we know of his beliefs surprisingly.
If you're going to get offended about something at least know somewhat what you're talking about. At least read the series.
But we haven't even got to the part where we find out why the attack in "Germany" is happening and what the proposed outcome should be..........
This manga has so many twists I can't see how it's possible to make a judgement about it when the story isn't conclouded, especially the current arc.
I think any thinking that this is supposed to have some cryptic underhanded message about Jews and not just taking the idea of powerful people using propaganda to subjugate, enslave and slaughter others in the way that happened to Jews, is kind of wrong, imo.
Let's see what the over all message of the story is, when the story is finished imo.
Also, the drivebys and ignorant posts from people who clearly haven't read or seen what the OP is discussing has me tearing my hair out.
Calm down everyone, nobody is glorifying Nazis or calling Jews monsters in this damn manga.
This manga has so many twists I can't see how it's possible to make a judgement about it when the story isn't conclouded, especially the current arc.
I think any thinking that this is supposed to have some cryptic underhanded message about Jews and not just taking the idea of powerful people using propaganda to subjugate, enslave and slaughter others in the way that happened to Jews, is kind of wrong, imo.
Let's see what the over all message of the story is, when the story is finished imo.
Also, the drivebys and ignorant posts from people who clearly haven't read or seen what the OP is discussing has me tearing my hair out.
Calm down everyone, nobody is glorifying Nazis or calling Jews monsters in this damn manga.
I don't feel that the "Jews" are the bad people here. But I do think that what Eren did in the last few chapters was wrong, and that's why I'm interested to see what direction AoT will take. Because, right now it feels like he had become the same as the ones he hated so much at the beginning of the manga.
As for those who don't like the analogy with the Jews, I can't really say I agree with this sentiment. But simply because I don't think it's a good thing to limit the freedom of an artist.
As for those who don't like the analogy with the Jews, I can't really say I agree with this sentiment. But simply because I don't think it's a good thing to limit the freedom of an artist.
so just like AoT?
just so you know, eldians transforming on those brainless titans it is something the marleyans force on them, it is not like they decided to become monsters or something
Eren comitting war crimes with no reason
lmao, are you for real OP?
He was all like, 'you know, maybe this whole revenge shit is bad, maybe we could reach mutual understanding...'
The leader outside: 'kill all eldian!'
Eren:'yeah, fuck this shit'
lmao, are you for real OP?
He was all like, 'you know, maybe this whole revenge shit is bad, maybe we could reach mutual understanding...'
The leader outside: 'kill all eldian!'
Eren:'yeah, fuck this shit'
Yeah... I can only assume the OP didn't read the manga or skipped through it.
I'm not seeing the issue and never even related this to Jews during WW2.
Eren's attack came after war was literally declared on his country, and the people attacked were to be direct participants in that war, including military commanders. The child in question was part of the military, as well, for what that's worth.
Also, terrorism is a nebulous term, and there does not exist a single definition that can be taken for granted.
The characters in this picture, aside from 2 and 4, are all from the "jewish" race, and most of the main cast.
The manga has mostly european people, and nearly all of them from that race. Aside from the girl with glasses, *none* of them have unusually big noses. Nor do most people in the book.
What caricatures? What racist imagery?
At least wrt racist imagery, terra formars this is not.
Is so weird that they are all the same race con sidering inside the walls we have seen german, anglo and hispanic names.
I always thought Erwin was american for example.
Reiner's entire mission was getting the Founding Titan, up till AFTER they kidnapped Eren they didn't even know he had it.
They just thought he was a random titan shifter and that was it.
They didn't know that Eren wanted to see the world or anyone ever cared about that except for Eren's close friends (talk of the outside world was punished so it's unlikely that Eren mouthed that off on his own offscreen).
At some point it's better if you actually reread the manga or something.
This is explicitly framed as propaganda in the series as actual history has been lost. Rewriting history (see: the Founding Titan powers) is a big plot point in the series.
The op has clearly read the series, and it is clear, they understand the things you are reexplaining, and still dont like it.
Also, none of that has anything to do with them very clearly using very obvious and on the nose visual depictions of direct holocaust allegories.
They can do all that, and not draw scenes straight out of the holocaust into their fantasy world.
Op misread most of the plot points to begin with, including very basic ones so I'd say reexplaining is quite clearly due.
The manga doesn't imply that at all. The Tybars are the only rich and influential Eldians and the lies they spread is the reason why eldians are hated. That's why he said he was deserving of the fate they're almost the worst in the manga. The eldians in the island are fight in order to prevent their own irradication by titans Marley helped increase. Marley destroyed the walls so they can get a weapon to start more wars. The eldians in general are completely passive and have no idea why they're screwed over the way they are in actuality,
No they don't. They reported that the thing with this people in question happened almost 1000 years ago. It is made VERY clear that the Main Landers have been dramatically more monstrous in their handling of these people through their repeated killings and exiling to the islands of man.
There's absolutely a reason, they are taking revenge on the genocide of their people. But even then, the protagonist seems to be acting more on his own at the moment if the current chapter is to be understood.
You are ABSOLUTELY supposed to empathize with the jew allegory in AOT. They are 100% the good guys, with only Eren being questionable at this point.
Again, why is it an issue? Must all fictional works abide by these rules? Cause OP has already stated X-men is ok, despite X-men doing the same exact thing that Attack on Titan is doing.
OP
OP
We'll probably see if the told history is true or not when Eren travels back in time (which I'm is just a guess but I'm guessing time travel will be revealed to be Eren's last power) sometime in the next several chapters.
Hopefully the Jews of this story were not violent oppressors in the past!
I'm 50/50 on whether they will be or not and I'm annoyed by the all the imagery regardless.
Hopefully the Jews of this story were not violent oppressors in the past!
I'm 50/50 on whether they will be or not and I'm annoyed by the all the imagery regardless.
I don't see what "It's art" has to do with whether or not you should find this in poor taste. There's good art, and there's bad art. Just being art doesn't absolve something of criticism.
I think co-opting the imagery and suffering of the jews in the holocaust as backstory for a work in which it's subtextually argued that Japan should be allowed to have an army and start fuckin' shit up is reprehensible. It's not about "offense."
It is, but I don't remember it being explicitly refuted yet. Unless I forgot something. If I did, feel free to link me to that.
As it stands now, the pre-Titan war era is said to have been dominated by infighting over the eight Titans by the Eldian houses, which led to generation spanning bloodshed.
He literally says that he wishes that Eldians never existed because of their crimes and what they are.
He also says that his family living free from persecution despite also being Eldians is even worse, that is true.
OP
OP
I also don't see the manga equivalent of "Did the Jews actually kill Jesus???" being a good plot point to explore.
You don't need a twist reveal and can just explicitly say it right away.
You don't need a twist reveal and can just explicitly say it right away.
You are right. I'd have to go back and read it again. I think he had the right to fight back but he used his own son at the age of five or so to do it(The warrior program took children between 5-7). I think it takes him from being a freedom fighter to being a terrorist. I think a little of my problem is also that Eldians in Titan form are monsters unless they are one of the Nine Titans exception that are special. If the natural Eldian Titan form was intelligent and it was their oppressors doing in making them mindless(maybe this is another twist), I would consider it empowering.
i still dont understand why you mean with that jesus stuff, can you explain?
considering how long the manga has been going, it's not crazy to say that this leg of the manga wasn't originally the vision. They spent almost a year and a half expounding on the history and motivations of both sides of the current war, that's not something you usually have to do if this is the logical progression of where we are.
AOT really did move from a vision of an apocalyptic utopia imploding into an allegory for nuclear weapons.
1. Most portrayals of Mutants in Marvel comics show the majority of Mutants just want to live peacefully with other humans, with humans being afraid of them because of their powers. The X-Men themselves are normally portrayed as a super hero group that want to help non Mutants and Mutants live together in peace. In addition, most Mutants outside of a few characters like Beast, look like every day humans.
2. Excluding a handful of characters like Eren, most of the Titans are giant ugly monsters that want to eat people and destroy everything. And while I know the story reasons for this, at face value it's "not a good look" for a Israeli allegory.
3. The allegories used in the X-Men are not as blatant/are way more subtle as Attack on Titan showing people with Star of David arm bands.
4. The X-Men is a classic franchise so even if it was 100% similar to Attack on Titan in terms of allegories, it wouldn't hold up vs a "current" series anyway. You also have a lot of posters who aren't following the manga reacting to the OP as the only source of info, whereas the X-Men allegories are more well known.
Note, I'm just pointing out why the reaction is different from X-Men. I understand why people like the OP are offended at face value by the allegory revelation, but reading the story and knowing where the story is going with Eren and the "good guys", if you were watching Attack on Titan and enjoying it, you would probably still enjoy the series seeing the new manga material/the manga didn't "become" offensive over what's already been animated.
The mangaka is a known sympathizer of Japan's war atrocities against Korea, saying Korea should be thankful of Japan, so to use antisemitic imagery this way isn't even remotely a shock.
I'm pretty sure that's the case. We've only seen people become the mindless titans via someone else's doing.
There are a large number of people who want Magneto's backstory to be re-written to have nothing to do with World War 2 at all.
We know that the only mindless zombie like Titans are actually convicts sent to paradise island.
They're Marleyan experiments, they lack what makes the Titans "think".
If the Titan eat a shifter, it gains sentience.
All Eldians have the potential to be a titan (shifter or mindless).
OP
OP
One of the core bases of Christian antisemitism is the smear that Jesus was killed by Jewish people.
Anti-Eldian hatred is based on:
A): Eldians can turn into giant zombies
B): Eldians were supposed to have been oppressors in the past.
B is clearly the "Did the Jews actually kill Jesus or was it a smear???" in this universe.
Isn't that because his backstory makes magneto really fucking old nowadays?
First paragraph is true and irrelevant to the situation it's regarding. A terrorist attack is a terrorist attack whether you are a freedom fighter or a religious zealot.
Second is blatantly wrong. There is nothing nebulous about the term or it's definition.
FM 100-20:
The DOD defines terrorism as the "the unlawful use of--or threatened use of--force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives." Religious and ideological objectives compel political action; thus, it is violence to modify political behavior which is the primary military concern.
Terrorism is the use of violence to modify political behavior.
That means very little in a world where you have complete control of the elements. Any sort of maguffin could explain why Magneto is as old as he is.