NY Times Op-Ed by Michael Ian Black: The Boys Are Not All Right
- Thread starter SageShinigami
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As men many feel ashamed at even feeling vulnerable or emotional. So many young men live in a constant state of shame, doubt and guilt which leads to intense feelings of helplessness and frustration. This helplessness and frustration are what I think causes these young men to lash and try to exhibit some amount of control over their lives and the lives others.
Work absolutely needs to be done to eliminate the stigma men associate with mental wellness and emotional vulnerability. The real question is how do we do that? What can be done to reframe the attitudes around these things?
Work absolutely needs to be done to eliminate the stigma men associate with mental wellness and emotional vulnerability. The real question is how do we do that? What can be done to reframe the attitudes around these things?
The race argument will end up leading to circular argument, posting of endless stats and articles analysing gun violence by race. However, the male issue is far more interesting to discuss because it something 150/153 mass shootings have been committed by males.
Stats
https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.38e38887de57
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
Stats
https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.38e38887de57
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
Cruz is a white hispanic. So it doesn't really matter, especially given he was adopted.
With regards to the actual article, it's very interesting and something I've been thinking about for a while as I explore my own life and upbringing and how I wholeheartedly rejected the rampant machismo hispanic men tend to fall into and the consequences of me doing that in the greater picture of my very large family, the root of which I believe this article touches on quite a bit.
There's no arguing how the media, the conservatives and we as a country react differently to the race and political motivations of the shooter.
This guy who shot down the school, once we found out that he was mentally disturbed, he has basically dissappeared from the conversation. Similarly, when an extremist shoots up a place, you would legit see commentators drag everything from religion to immigrants through the mud and making a case for the shooter to be tried as an enemy combatant in Guantanamo. Why doesn't religious assholes get to play the mental instablity card ? Why do white people seem to have a monopoly on being mentally unstable ? You ain't got the answers sway.
On topic though, I think blaming toxic masculanity for shootings is an extrapolation. But worse is saying only white boys are the ones doing it. It's along the same lines as blaming muslims wholesale after terrorist incidents happens.
This guy who shot down the school, once we found out that he was mentally disturbed, he has basically dissappeared from the conversation. Similarly, when an extremist shoots up a place, you would legit see commentators drag everything from religion to immigrants through the mud and making a case for the shooter to be tried as an enemy combatant in Guantanamo. Why doesn't religious assholes get to play the mental instablity card ? Why do white people seem to have a monopoly on being mentally unstable ? You ain't got the answers sway.
On topic though, I think blaming toxic masculanity for shootings is an extrapolation. But worse is saying only white boys are the ones doing it. It's along the same lines as blaming muslims wholesale after terrorist incidents happens.
Yes, but this comes in the wake of yet another mass shooting committed by a white male. It's the height of whataboutism to act as if this is a discussion of "toxic masculinity" that should include a reflection on male violence across the entire racial spectrum. Let's first address the fact that this pattern is one almost exclusively owned by white men and ask ourselves why that is.
Be open with those around you? As I've gotten older, I've made it a habit to communicate with male friends and family what they mean to me, and how much I value their friendship and presence. Allow yourself to be vulnerable around another male - it's a wonderful feeling to open up sometimes, especially if it makes the other person open up and reciprocate. Lead by example, I guess. Have you ever cried in front of another man? It can be a powerful thing to experience.
Lol they way you say that makes it sounds like it's the result of a pathogen or something. A psychically transmitted illness.
I think I just found my next sci fi thriller novel.
Boys of Asian heritage who shoot up schools fit perfectly into the themes of this opinion piece. Asian men in America are unfairly viewed as effeminate or unmasculine. Combine that with old fashioned attitudes about how men should suck up their problems, and you've got a psychological powder keg.
Hispanic isn't a "race," or there wouldn't be designations of both white and black hispanics.
This guy
is white.
of course not, how could he? how could anyone from one group speak on the experiences of another? I don't believe that was the intention of the author either
I took the article in the OP as an identification of a problem and some ways in which that problem manifests itself in the world from something as awful as a mass shooting to something smaller and more personal like failing to connect with your son and perpetuating the cycle of toxic masculinity
yes, toxic masculinity will affect different groups of people differently. yes, different people will have different experiences that only they have the ability to speak on.
we still have to talk about this shit though. it's an issue for men across the country and for everyone else as well.
Actually, most of the shooters did not have any "raising by fathers." While I can be proven wrong, most came from broken families and/or terrible male figures. This doesn't have to do with this "not how discuss emotion nonsense." You didn't have a bunch of school shootings in the early 1900s when men stoic masculinity was at is highest. A generation suffered under two World Worlds, and didn't come home and shoot up schools or even raise kids that did. (Other issues, sure, but we are talking about school shootings here).
Everyone on this thread so far is only offering pop culture bullshit pontifications of truly what is ailing these sad individuals. Very little has been offered so far that these shootings have been somehow a product of emasculations. While obviously these offenders have been men. One cannot draw the conclusion that it is "masculinity" in general that is the issue.
Moreover, (and off topic), this whole notion of "toxic masculinity" is IMO more trouble than its worth because as the we have sought to redefine what femininity is (and all for the best), society has yet to redefine masculinity, and what that means beyond the jokes of the beer drinking, kinda chunky, sports fan. There is value in strength, there is value in suppressing emotional reactions, there is value in adhering to reason and facts, there is value in treating everyone (men and women) with respect, there is value in tempering a termper, there is value in supporting those you love, there is value in letting people you love support you, and a whole other host of things that "model fathers" should be teaching their sons.
Something like this:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46473/if---
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OP
OP
I grew up without a father and no overwhelmingly strong male influences in my life. Never once have I thought about shooting up a school. Stop trying to tear down single mothers.
When white teenage boys aren't getting laid they start looking for someone to blame. This leads them down the rabbit hole of incel sites which overlap with white supremacy ideology.
I'm just perplexed that putting limitations to rights in America is only ever an option when the results hurt non whites primarily.
Mental health is an issue, toxic masculinity is an issue, guns are an issue. But if these attacks were being carried out by disgruntled brown males, I have a hard time believing that Republicans and others wouldn't be introducing policies to constitutionally violate the 2nd Amendment rights of these Americans.
Remember California when Reagan was governor, introduced the Mulford act as a response to the Black Panther party starting to have armed neighbourhood patrols. How is there supposed to be a conversation about how to fix this problem when elected officials seem to have a different playbook for dealing with things depending on the colour of the skin of the perpetrators? Not to mention things like threatening the CDC with defunding if they researched gun violence.
Newsflash: you can have a hispanic name, speak spanish AND be white! Look at Marco Rubio. Whitest motherfucker on earth.
But that's neither here nor there. Yes, men shoot up a shit-ton more people than women. Women generally seem less physically violent. They are better at hurting through words and other non-violent means.
Yeah things can get rough quickly sometimes. Not a fan of the way I've seen some confrontations go...
While every one of these incidents should call such things in to question I'm just glad it is being asked at all. It won't be to any effect I fear, but I'm glad it's at least being put out there.
Two of the five most deadly school shootings in this country would say otherwise.
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Clearly mostly white males.
Mass shootings (98% male). Pardon my math as I am doing this on my iPhone while looking over the Mother Jones spreadsheet.
~56 percent white
~16 percent black
~7 percent Hispanic
~7 percent Asian
The rest are other, Native Americans or unknowns.
Also worth noting that 90% of all murders are committed by males.
EDIT: in case it was not clear the stats represented above are for all mass shootings such as schools, workplace, military bases, places of worship etc.
It's not racist at all. It is a stat after all but in this instance it feels like you can't see the forrest for the trees.
This is as much a male issue as sexual harassment.
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Truly awful and offensive take. The vast majority of people who grow up in non-nuclear families turn out just fine with zero inclination to shoot up a school. Stop these asinine generalizations.
2 of the top 3. I am going through the list, and the white guy talk isn't accurate at all.
I can't begin to fathom how you managed to pull that from his post.
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OP
Your post is that same old tired "broken home" stuff that's been debunked plenty of times. You're comparing the 1900s to the 90s through the present, ignoring that society was wholly different then. You're ignoring the rapid urbanization, you're ignoring the chance in society coming out of post-WW2. You just wanna tell us if a dad was there it'd be fine, even though there's evidence to the contrary of that.
Hahaha. This ain't a body count competition. It' tragic regardless. Count race of the serial killers in the last 150 school massacres.
If you contrast that to the population of the USA as per the last census, white boys are a lower contributor to school shootings than their percentage of the American population would suggest. Though this gets into wonky stuff with school population demographics and % of school shootings done by school aged individuals.
With the exception of Hispanics, those numbers parallel the population statistics pretty damn well.
This whole thread is peppering all men and "toxic masculinity" and all that, yet the fact that many of these shooters did come from broken homes to one extent or another is something now two posters have taken issue with?
I am not generalizing anything. There are perfectly normal, well adjusted people that came from all sorts of homes and backgrounds.
Nothing. I was legit curious. Perhaps better saved for another thread. (ill delete my post).
We have a chart on race, do we have a chart of socioeconomic background, especially family income compared to the median income in the area they live in?
Interesting. Here's the comparison based on the last census.
White: 72.4% population vs 56% of shootings
Black: 12.6% population vs 16% of shootings
Asian: 4.8% population vs 7% of shootings
Hispanic: 16.3% population vs 7% of shootings****
So I mean... it roughly correlates to the population? White men may be "underrepresented" in shootings which I didn't expect.
**** it should be noted that the census indicates Hispanic/Latino "of any race" -- I don't know how Mother Jones' stats work out but I'm not sure they can be mapped straight across due to overlap with other races
Interesting. Here's the comparison based on the last census.
White: 72.4% population vs 56% of shootings
Black: 12.6% population vs 16% of shootings
Asian: 4.8% population vs 7% of shootings
Hispanic: 16.3% population vs 7% of shootings****
So I mean... it roughly correlates to the population? White men may be "underrepresented" in shootings which I didn't expect.
**** it should be noted that the census indicates Hispanic/Latino "of any race" -- I don't know how Mother Jones' stats work out but I'm not sure they can be mapped straight across due to overlap with other races
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I think the internet helps boil whatever toxic masculinity already has simmering inside some guys. They go online, find groups to hate, meet and talk to others who share their beliefs against women/minorities/political parties and they grow more and more emboldened to carry out these attacks.
In general, guys have a giant problem opening up about stuff and it's not really their fault since everyone from their parents, peers and the entertainment they consume tells them that's how how they should be, emotionless and stoic and dead inside.
If all these shooters could deal with their feelings and issues instead of exploding like this we'd all be better off.
In general, guys have a giant problem opening up about stuff and it's not really their fault since everyone from their parents, peers and the entertainment they consume tells them that's how how they should be, emotionless and stoic and dead inside.
If all these shooters could deal with their feelings and issues instead of exploding like this we'd all be better off.
"coming from broken homes" is not synonymous with "no raising by fathers". I take far less issue with the former, and the fact you are even conflating and equivocating these two things is problematic.
I don't think the thread should be dominated by discussion about why white men are over represented, but this is my own theory (pulled out of my ass, but it makes sense to me)
Maybe black men have already internalized their opression to the point of going down other self destructive paths that don't make the news as dramaticaly as this. White men see their space as the dominant class slipping, so act out in a way there they can reclaim attention on the biggest stage possible.
But like I said, that is my dime store psychology take on the question, I am more than likely wrong.
Maybe black men have already internalized their opression to the point of going down other self destructive paths that don't make the news as dramaticaly as this. White men see their space as the dominant class slipping, so act out in a way there they can reclaim attention on the biggest stage possible.
But like I said, that is my dime store psychology take on the question, I am more than likely wrong.
This is why I suggested earlier that the race numbers are not as interesting. If we are only talking about mass school shootings it is almost exclusively white males with a smattering of Asian and Native Americans. I have to examine those more closely. So don't hold me to that.
Sorry, I was posting data about mass shootings which includes school shootings. If we are talking exclusively about school shootings then white males have that market cornered.
"To be clear, most men will never turn violent. Most men will turn out fine. Most will learn to navigate the deep waters of their feelings without ever engaging in any form of destruction. Most will grow up to be kind. But many will not.
We will probably never understand why any one young man decides to end the lives of others. But we can see at least one pattern and that pattern is glaringly obvious. It's boys."
we can see patterns without making generalizations about every single person who fulfills the requirements for that pattern
We will probably never understand why any one young man decides to end the lives of others. But we can see at least one pattern and that pattern is glaringly obvious. It's boys."
we can see patterns without making generalizations about every single person who fulfills the requirements for that pattern
But at first glance white men do not appear to be over-represented.
You are free to name any mass shooter that didn't come from a broken home.
Im not telling you everything thing will be fine if "dad" was there. Im telling you thinks are worse when he isnt. And what are you talking about? Statistically, two parent households do better overall than single parent. Now, there can be alot of issues with that which can be disscussed, but I can see this isn't headed in that direction. I will step out of this thread.
Just posting some data that might help with this conversation: The Demographics of Gun Ownership
My personal hypothesis is that race comes into play because gun ownership and gun culture is most prominent in rural areas (which are mostly white) and because people of color are often so discouraged from owning guns (trying walking around in an open carry state with a rifle on your back as say a Sikh and see what happens LOL).
My personal hypothesis is that race comes into play because gun ownership and gun culture is most prominent in rural areas (which are mostly white) and because people of color are often so discouraged from owning guns (trying walking around in an open carry state with a rifle on your back as say a Sikh and see what happens LOL).
Off the top of my head, Dylan Klebold, one of the columbine shooters, did not come from a broken home.
Oh really? Huh I imagiened there was a disproportionate representation of white people and thinking about reasons to explain that!
Indeed. This thread is rubbish so far.
Do white males have easier access to guns and how much does that correlate with the % involved with mass shootings?
Nothing exists in a vacuum, so they actually are over represented when taking into account their historic place within our society and weighing their privileges against that of other races. And that's just one of several reasons that make your claim false.