NY Times Op-Ed by Michael Ian Black: The Boys Are Not All Right

SageShinigami said:

DigitalOp's post is what you want here.

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No it isn't. That doesn't back up what you are claiming at all.

Here's a simple thought exercise to lead you on the right track - you claim white people's primary response to toxic masculinity is mass shooting. Ok, then what is their secondary response? How much more do they engage in their primary response than their secondary response? What are black people's primary response to toxic masculinity? Hispanic people?

You see more white people have committed mass shootings and assume that means white people's primary means of dealing with toxic masculinity is mass shootings. That is faulty logic. All it means is that, given the frequent number of mass shootings, we can start to see the representation of the country's racial make up shining through because the response (mass shootings) is statistically the same between races.

Cruz was participating in a white supremacist training program so not really any point in squabbling over that

Tya said:

The idea that this is an issue of skin tone is hilarious. Keep the comedy coming.

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When you belive that white people can't be terrorist, you don't address the problem

The meaningful issue is why mass shootings are becoming more prevalent.
Crime in general is down, so it seems difficult to support the idea that there is a generational problem or that men in general are prone to violence at greater rates than in the past. Instead it seems like when people do snap mass shootings are more likely to be the result vs. prior to the 1990s.
Prior to the mid 90s there was a school shooting once or twice a decade. In the mid 90s they became much more common (even though crime in general was way down compared with the 1970s). Other than the internet and mass media coverage of shootings it's hard to tell what changed that made them so much more prevalent.
Personally, I worry that by making Dylan and Eric household names society sent a message to every kid with an axe to grind that shooting up their school would be a way of gaining a ton of attention to show how disgruntled they were.

Black American Psycho said:

When you belive that white people can't be terrorist, you don't address the problem

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What are you talking about? Who said white people can't be terrorists? Why do you jump to idiotic conclusions based on nothing?

Society (Republicans mostly) are telling white men them minorities are taking jobs, college enrollment, money and white women from them. Some vulnerable ones buy into it.

Minorities (including women here) are raised to work twice as hard to be just as good because motherfuckers are going to hate them for their biology.

Whitemex said:

Relevant

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That was great.

I mean, there might be something to look at when most of the shootings young black men are involved in are over personal disputes or robberies and crimes and things, while these young white men are similarly unhinged, yet usually come from at least slightly better economic status, and use a heavy weapon to murder many people for no material or physical gain whatsoever, over perceived slights and issues they have with the world.

Unfortunately, shit rolls downhill. I think unchecked mental health issues and delusions of entitlement affect many men of all races. The problem is that white have are likely to have a higher sense of entitlement, and usually more money.

The main problem will always be the access to guns. And America is so completely not ready to have a conversation about the effects of so many young white men having be taught to consider themselves above all by society, while also having the privilege economically and socially to through their weight around wherever they want to little pushback.

Maybe for right now let's focus on the guns?

OH WAIT THATS RIGHT.

"ALL THOSE BLACKS HAVE GUNS SO MY FAMILY NEEDS MINE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES"

"Tyrannical government" my fat ass...

Kirblar said:

No. Boys. Violent offender rates between men and women are going to maintain a gigantic gap no matter what race you look at.

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#NotAllWhiteMen

Cream said:

I mean, there might be something to look at when most of the shootings young black men are involved in are over personal disputes or robberies and crimes and things, while these young white men are similarly unhinged, yet usually come from at least slightly better economic status, and use a heavy weapon to murder many people for no material or physical gain whatsoever, over perceived slights and issues they have with the world.

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I would posit that most of the shootings white people do are also personal disputes or robberies and crimes and other things as well. Sadly, ~175 mass shootings a year done by white people is just a drop in the bucket compared to all white people shootings.

SageShinigami said:

That was my first reaction when my homeboy showed it to me lol. It ain't black dudes doing this. Latino dudes either. And outside of maybe one case, asians either.

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This doesn't seem all that accurate. Cruz, the latest, is white hispanic. The Pulse shooting was by an Afghani-American. The shooting on the Air Force base was by a Palestinian-American . The Virginia Tech shooter was Asian. The prior "record holder" for a mass killing was Hispanic. Whites should be the majority, given they make up 65% of the population, but they've had lots of company in the mass shooting department. Treating this as a "white" problem ignores that violence is a young male issue across every imaginable race. The problem isn't "white boys", it's boys.

Krejlooc said:

I would posit that most of the shootings white people do are also personal disputes or robberies and crimes and other things as well. Sadly, ~175 mass shootings a year done by white people is just a drop in the bucket compared to all white people shootings.

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I guess I should have worded it as "when mass shootings happen" it's usually a young white guy.

I think the young part is also important there.

Bubbavelli said:

#NotAllWhiteMen

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The thread was immediately derailed by a #notallmen #justwhitemen #hashtag post and what you take issue with is someone trying to put it back on the tracks?

cagey said:

The thread was immediately derailed by a #notallmen #justwhitemen #hashtag post and what you take issue with is someone trying to put it back on the tracks?

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Its back on track because you agree with him?

Cream said:

I guess I should have worded it as "when mass shootings happen" it's usually a young white guy.

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And as the statistics show, this is because there is a majority of white people in America, not because white people actually are more prone to committing mass shootings than other races. That the statics on mass shootings closely aligns to racial representation in the nation (i.e. black people make up 12% of the population and commit 16% of mass shootings) indicates that the none of the races themselves exhibit a propensity for mass shootings over the others.

Bubbavelli said:

Its back on track because you agree with him?

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The statistics do.

Bubbavelli said:

Its back on track because you agree with him?

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An odd question. I usually wouldn't say I "agree" with facts because there's nothing to disagree with on facts. More like I acknowledge facts.

Krejlooc said:

And as the statistics show, this is because there is a majority of white people in America, not because white people actually are more prone to committing mass shootings than other races. That the statics on mass shootings closely aligns to racial representation in the nation (i.e. black people make up 12% of the population and commit 16% of mass shootings) indicates that the none of the races themselves exhibit a propensity for mass shootings over the others.

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I'm not saying white people are more prone to mass shootings. Never mind.

FunkyMonkey said:

jesus christ way to shit up your own thread that was actually making a decent point at the start. went from "there's a male problem" to "there's a male WHITE problem and come at me" in just a few posts.

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I know, what should be an absolutely pivotal discussion that needs be held constantly in every society/country in the world is instead being derailed by a completely different topic.

The boys are not all right, and this is true all over the world.

Cream said:

I'm not saying white people are more prone to mass shootings. Never mind.

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Then I'm afraid I don't quite understand your point in that original post. I swear I'm not trying to put words into your mouth or imply an argument you aren't making -- apparently I have just misunderstood your intent. If you're not upset, could you clarify?

Raven117 said:

You are free to name any mass shooter that didn't come from a broken home.

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Omar Mateen, Seung-Hui Cho, Devin Patrick Kelley, George Hennard. Do you have any actual numbers for what you keep insisting?

Disclaimer said:

No one here is exempting any violent offenders from accountability for their actions. That's a ludicrous notion. However, toxic masculinity is a wide-reaching phenomenon that's proven corrosive to society at all levels, in all groups, and is worthy of thoughtful discussion without derailment into racial attributions.

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Ok, but my problem is that discussions like these spring from acts of terror committed primarily by white males, but there's no attempt to isolate them and ascertain why they are the one committing most of these acts. People in this very thread are dismissing the idea that this is a problem that white males should be held accountable for, when I can't recall any black males committing mass murder of school children the way Adam Lanza or Nicolas Cruz or Anders Breivik did. I can't think of the last time a black male strolled into a church and massacred the attendees. Can you? Because of that reluctance to deal with what we are presently contending with, I have a problem when these discussions begin grouping all males together and treating this as an epidemic that is far reaching and inclusive of every male - regardless of race. So, there is an exemption being offered white males, in my eye. There is this need to have a frank reflection on the causes of these massacres, so long as there is no division of culpability along racial lines. That is, in my mind, a continuation of the privilege and entitlement that many (not even myself) have argued lies at the root of this clear problem our country is facing.

White male privilege is frequently talked about, is widely acknowledged on ResetEra, and is no doubt a contributing factor to the white men who do resort to violent acts, but you cannot hand-wave statistics that don't support your narrative, and as it currently appears, white men are not committing a disproportionate amount of school shootings for the amount of population they make up.

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Can we at least agree that white perps are treated more leniently by the public when searches for answers to their motivations are conducted? Is that not obvious?

Krejlooc said:

Then I'm afraid I don't quite understand your point in that original post. I swear I'm not trying to put words into your mouth or imply an argument you aren't making -- apparently I have just misunderstood your intent. If you're not upset, could you clarify?

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I just think there's more to it than population and the country isn't ready to talk about that so we should just focus on the guns.

So how do we get turn down the volume on Toxic Masculinity? How does the next generation of men grow up with more healthier ways of dealing with their feelings, especially when their fathers are poor at doing so?

I don't see how to do this. Especially with external factors that are quickly becoming serious factors. Political extremism. Robotics and automation filling more roles of human workers. Costs of goods going up while salaries rise at a much slower pace. Crazy inflation of housing prices. Its rough.

ya'll are honestly losing the plot if ya'll dont think men of color arent conditioned to be just as entitled as white men because of their sex

the only difference is that the whiteness goes the extra mile in ensuring the conditioning can be fully benefitted from

incogneato said:

ya'll are honestly losing the plot if ya'll dont think men of color arent conditioned to be just as entitled as white men because of their sex

the only difference is that the whiteness goes the extra mile in ensuring the conditioning can be fully benefitted from

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This is basically what I trying to say.

Mr Jones said:

So how do we get turn down the volume on Toxic Masculinity? How does the next generation of men grow up with more healthier ways of dealing with their feelings, especially when their fathers are poor at doing so?

I don't see how to do this. Especially with external factors that are quickly becoming serious factors. Political extremism. Robotics and automation filling more roles of human workers. Costs of goods going up while salaries rise at a much slower pace. Crazy inflation of housing prices. Its rough.

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Solidarity in shared frustration? No matter what your problem is there are millions of people out there who are experiencing something similar. So talk about it, reach out to people, don't suffer in silence.

incogneato said:

ya'll are honestly losing the plot if ya'll dont think men of color arent conditioned to be just as entitled as white men because of their sex

the only difference is that the whiteness goes the extra mile in ensuring the conditioning can be fully benefitted from

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How can any black man be conditioned to feel as entitled as white men because of their gender? In a country where black women are the ones predominantly graduating from college in the black community? In a country where black women are seeing their employment rate rise while their black male peers lag behind and face much greater obstacles to hiring?

Branu said:

How can any black man be conditioned to feel as entitled as white men because of their gender? In a country where black women are the ones predominantly graduating from college in the black community? In a country where black women are seeing their employment rate rise while their black male peers lag behind and face much greater obstacles to hiring?

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Hey, I get it. And WANT to agree, but toxic masculinity and sexism and the patriarchy exist in ALL races.

Cream said:

Hey, I get it. And WANT to agree, but toxic masculinity and sexism and the patriarchy exist in ALL races.

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I won't deny that.

Branu said:

How can any black man be conditioned to feel as entitled as white men because of their gender? In a country where black women are the ones predominantly graduating from college in the black community? In a country where black women are seeing their employment rate rise while their black male peers lag behind and face much greater obstacles to hiring?

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White women are graduating at much higher rates than white men as well. What's going on with toxic masculinity isn't unique to any race (far from it).

Branu said:

How can any black man be conditioned to feel as entitled as white men because of their gender? In a country where black women are the ones predominantly graduating from college in the black community? In a country where black women are seeing their employment rate rise while their black male peers lag behind and face much greater obstacles to hiring?

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women PERIOD graduate and are gaining traction in job markets over men, that doesnt change the fact that men are socialized to feel powerful at all times

nasirum said:

Uh the dude that shot up the Florida school was hispanic.

Also what's with this racism? Quit it.

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He was adopted not Hispanic. His adoptee mother and father had the last name Cruz and he took it when they adopted him.

Also his birth mom was apparently Jewish?

incogneato said:

women PERIOD graduate and are gaining traction in job markets over men, that doesnt change the fact that men are socialized to feel powerful at all times

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Yes, but this returns us once again to the fact that black people are a special case who fall under separate considerations. As a black man, growing up and living in this society, I've never felt a single bit entitlement.

SageShinigami said:

Dammit, you lost the plot quick af lol. Are you saying we don't feel it at all, or just that we don't feel it compared to white men? Black men are definitely prone to certain levels of entitlement.

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Maybe within the black community? In society at large, we are at the bottom, and any entitlement we might enjoy in our community becomes an afterthought when we step outside those confines. I look at black female representation in higher education and the workforce. But even in the black community, given how decimated the black family is, black men have found themselves scapegoated by many black women for the problems we face. The black community can arguably be called a matriarchy, for reasons systemic and cultural. Outside of our athleticism and its representation in professional sports, I don't see how we could at feel entitled in our community or this society.

I actually think that viewing this through the lens of just mass shootings is probably missing the point. I think mass shootings are basically just a symptom of something that is affecting men in general in this country. Men are basically doing worse than before. There are a lot of reasons and things to discuss about that, but at the end of the day males drop out of school at a higher rate, they kill themselves at a higher rate, they abuse their spouses at a higher rate, they are incarcerated at a higher rate, they kill at a higher rate. It's weird to think about considering the male position in society but I strongly believe we as a society are failing boys right now, and globalization is accelerating the problem because low-skilled manual labor jobs that used to be enough to support a family are disappearing and we have a lot of guys with no real prospects because of it. Those jobs used to not only be income but social support structures as well. And we've seen more and more that as males get older, the biggest issue we have is a lack of friends.

I'm not saying I have the answers, but since we're on a message board and we're all talking out of our asses sometimes I'll give my opinion anyway. I believe it is due to the lack of male influence in pre-adolescent and adolescent life. Young boys grow up being taught by practically only women through elementary school, and they might have a few more men teaching them in high school. Not having men around them in this environment leaves them without teachers they can relate to on male-specific issues. It also leaves them to only have role models that are basically inaccessible and idealized -- your LeBrons, your Obamas or Trumps, your PewDiePies. But they can't interact with these people, they can't really grow from them. So boys are left in a very isolated world where they can't learn how to effectively be men FROM men. I think it's really undervalued how important it is to have that kind of model for yourself. It's important to have somebody you can relate to, to talk to "man to man" about things.

Branu said:

That is, in my mind, a continuation of what the privilege and entitlement that many (not even myself) have argued lies at the root of this clear problem our country is facing.

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I agree wholeheartedly that entitlement and denial can feed emotional instability, contributing to the animus that leads to these mass shootings, especially when fed through the online feedback loop of likeminded people eager to find scapegoats for their issues.

Branu said:

Ok, but my problem is that discussions like these spring from acts of terror committed primarily by white males, but there's no attempt to isolate them and ascertain why they are the one committing most of these acts. People in this very thread are dismissing the idea that this is a problem that white males should be held accountable for

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However, this line of thought is, from what statistics seem to indicate, erroneous. White men are primarily committing these terrorist acts only in relative proportion to them being the majority of the country. They're being held duly accountable on here, although the conservative spectrum is obviously still unwilling to recognize white terrorism, and attempts to humanize them, while dehumanizing minorities.

Isolating them without statistical disproportionality serves only as an inflammatory distraction from what should have been the thrust of this topic's discussion: the debilitating effects of toxic masculinity on males and society, and how that relates to the near exclusivity with which men wield violence, both in the U.S. (most visibly in mass shootings) and internationally.

Black American Psycho said:

Bro no lol.

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yes bro, lol. please stop. Crazy men all around the world, including the U.S., of all races...have shot shit up. Just in the U.S. we've recently had white (Vegas)(Columbine), hispanic (FL), middle eastern (ORL) (Ft Hood TX), asian (Virginia Tech), black (Dallas).

Chris Rock was right when he said he should send his kids to a black school cause at least they won't have to worry about niggas shootin the school up

DoItForJohnny5Alive said:

yes bro, lol. please stop. Crazy men all around the world, including the U.S., of all races...have shot shit up. Just in the U.S. we've recently had white (Vegas)(Columbine), hispanic (FL), middle eastern (ORL) (Ft Hood TX), asian (Virginia Tech), black (Dallas).

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Who in Dallas? Please don't say Micah Johnson. And Hispanic is not a race.

incogneato said:

ya'll are honestly losing the plot if ya'll dont think men of color arent conditioned to be just as entitled as white men because of their sex

the only difference is that the whiteness goes the extra mile in ensuring the conditioning can be fully benefitted from

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Branu said:

How can any black man be conditioned to feel as entitled as white men because of their gender? In a country where black women are the ones predominantly graduating from college in the black community? In a country where black women are seeing their employment rate rise while their black male peers lag behind and face much greater obstacles to hiring?

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Cream said:

Hey, I get it. And WANT to agree, but toxic masculinity and sexism and the patriarchy exist in ALL races.

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Eh... okay. I believe hypermasculinity affects everyone. But Id urge to really look at how that manifests in the black community in comparison to the topic.

Hyper-masculinity in Young Black Males ends up resulting in Homophobia, Bullying, Agitated Aggression levels, Difficulty in expressive emotion, possibly depression as well. A lot of this stuff crosses over with other males of different races BUT

Black Males aren't shooting up schools and public places. That masculinity issues end up being targeted towards peers or at home. Rather internal issues instead of lashing out externally like what we witnessed this month. There is a major difference there and it seems to be majority of white males struggling with this.

The topic of hand is about active shooters. Lets not allow some weak ass "Black on Black" crime driveby derail the thread or change the narrative.

DigitalOp said:

Thats easy.

Systemic racism which denied black youth equal employment opportunities with decent wages, quality educational facilities, and gentrification which pushed black families into lower income neighborhoods. Mix in a little food desert and you have the perfect breeding ground for violence.

Whats your excuse for white males?

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commercials, shows, and movies portray them as bumbling fools who can't even think, shop, speak for themselves. They're told they can't jump or dance. Their music is dead. The sports they grew up playing and watching (NFL, MLB, NBA) are largely dominated by minorities, they've lost jobs in the U.S. due to affirmative action, title IX, and people with temporary visas if those jobs haven't been outsourced completely. They're blamed for slavery and Jim Crow despite neither being alive during or having ancestors who were even American when this took place. Obviously people of all races have issues that could set them off. Or, could just be white privilege amirite?

Branu said:

Who in Dallas? Please don't say Micah Johnson. And Hispanic is not a race.

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wait, Micah doesn't count? lmao

DoItForJohnny5Alive said:

commercials, shows, and movies portray them as bumbling fools who can't even think, shop, speak for themselves. They're told they can't jump or dance. Their music is dead. The sports they grew up playing and watching (NFL, MLB, NBA) are largely dominated by minorities, they've lost jobs in the U.S. due to affirmative action, title IX, and people with temporary visas if those jobs haven't been outsourced completely. They're blamed for slavery and Jim Crow despite neither being alive during or having ancestors who were even American when this took place. Obviously people of all races have issues that could set them off. Or, could just be white privilege amirite?

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Damn, at least they get paid more and don't have to clench their buttcheeks around the feds.

DoItForJohnny5Alive said:

wait, Micah doesn't count? lmao

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What he did was wrong, obviously. If we are to believe the official story, he had clear motivations driven by a systemic issue he felt was ignored, targeting his anger at what he viewed as a threat to his community. That's definitely for another discussion, but I don't know if I would lump him in with these others guys. I don't think he would ever just massacre innocent children.

SageShinigami said:

That was my first reaction when my homeboy showed it to me lol. It ain't black dudes doing this. Latino dudes either. And outside of maybe one case, asians either. Toxic masculinity doesn't seem to affect us the same way. Not to say it isn't there tho.

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Are you saying that toxic masculinity has nothing to do with the rampant gang violence in places like Chicago?