Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
This thread is meant to be a way for you to educate yourself on trans people and trans issues. If you have any questions, no matter what it is, please ask.

What does it mean to be transgender?


Transgender people are people whose gender identity is different from the gender they were thought to be at birth. "Trans" is often used as shorthand for transgender.

When we're born, a doctor usually says that we're male or female based on what our bodies look like. Most people who were labeled male at birth turn out to actually identify as men, and most people who were labeled female at birth grow up to be women. These people would be cisgender. But some people's gender identity – their innate knowledge of who they are – is different from what was initially expected when they were born. Most of these people describe themselves as transgender.

A transgender woman lives as a woman today, but was thought to be male when she was born. A transgender man lives as a man today, but was thought to be female when he was born. Some transgender people identify as neither a man nor a woman, or as a combination of male and female, and may use terms like non-binary or genderqueer to describe their gender identity.

Gender identity is a person's internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman For some people, their gender identity does not fit neatly into those two choices. For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their own internal gender identity do not match
Gender expression is how a person presents their gender on the outside, often through behavior, clothing, hairstyle, voice or body characteristics


What is the difference between being transgender and being gender non-conforming?

Gender non-conforming people may or may not be transgender. For example, some women who were raised and identify as women present themselves in ways that might be considered masculine, like by having short hair or wearing stereotypically masculine clothes. The term "tomboy" refers to girls who are gender non-conforming, which often means they play rough sports, hang out with boys, and dress in more masculine clothing.

Similarly, transgender people may be gender non-conforming, or they might conform to gender stereotypes for the gender they live and identify as


Sexual Orientation and Trans people


Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same. Sexual orientation refers to an individual's enduring physical, romantic, and/or emotional attraction to another person, whereas gender identity refers to one's internal sense of being male, female, or something else. Transgender people may be straight, lesbian, gay, bisexual, or asexual, just as cisgender people can be

Why don't transgender people get counseling to accept the gender they were assigned at birth?


Counseling aimed at changing someone's gender identity, sometimes known as conversion therapy, doesn't work and can be extremely harmful. The belief that someone's gender identity can be changed through therapy runs counter to the overwhelming consensus in the medical community. Telling someone that a core part of who they are is wrong or delusional and forcing them to change it is dangerous, sometimes leading to lasting depression, substance abuse, self-hatred and even suicide.

Why are people transgender?


"A twin study published in the International Journal of Transgenderism found that 33% of identical twin pairs were both trans, compared to only 2.6% of non-identical twins who were raised in the same family at the same time, but were not genetically identical."

(Source: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html)


"Several studies have found a correlation between gender identity and brain structure.[7] A first-of-its-kind study by Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region which is known for sex and anxiety responses (and which is affected by prenatal androgens),[8] male-to-female trans women had a female-normal BSTc size (like cisgender women) and female-to-male trans men had a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still had sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found"

(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure)


"David Peter Reimer was a Canadian man born physically male but reassigned as a girl and raised female following medical advice and intervention after his penis was accidentally destroyed during a botched circumcision in infancy.

Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. Academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer's realization he was not a girl crystallized between the ages of 9 and 11, and he transitioned to living as a male at age 15. Well known in medical circles for years anonymously as the "John/Joan" case, Reimer later went public with his story to help discourage similar medical practices. He later committed suicide after suffering years of severe depression, financial instability, and a troubled marriage"

(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer)



How are transgender people treated?

"Double the rate of unemployment: Survey respondents experienced unemployment at twice the rate of the general population at the time of the survey,with rates for people of color up to four times the national unemployment rate."

"Over one-quarter (26%) reported that they had lost a job due to being transgender or gender non-conforming and 50% were harassed"

"One-fifth (19%) reported experiencing homelessness at some point in their lives because they were transgender or gender non-conforming; the majority of those trying to access a homeless shelter were harassed by shelter staff or residents (55%), 29% were turned away altogether, and 22% were sexually assaulted by residents or staff."

"Fifty-three percent (53%) of respondents reported being verbally harassed or disrespected in a place of public accommodation, including hotels, restaurants, buses, airports and government agencies"

zXFV3h2.png

The above statistics are from the United States only.

"It is part of social and legal convention in the United States to discriminate against, ridicule, and abuse transgender and gender non-conforming people within foundational institutions such as the family, schools, the workplace and health care settings, every day. Instead of recognizing that the moral failure lies in society's unwillingness to embrace different gender identities and expressions, society blames transgender and gender non-conforming people for bringing the discrimination and violence on themselves.
Nearly every system and institution in the United States, both large and small, from local to national, is
implicated by this data."
(Source: http://endtransdiscrimination.org/PDFs/NTDS_Exec_Summary.pdf)


"Nearly half (47%) of respondents were sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime and one in ten
(10%) were sexually assaulted in the past year."
(Source: https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Executive-Summary-Dec17.pdf)




Can we trust children to make decisions about being transgender?

These two statistics show that gender identity develops at a young age, although some children don't realize exactly why they feel different due to a lack of awareness that transgender people exist. People tend to be concerned that the parents are forcing their children to transition at a young age because they didn't really want a son or daughter while these show that isn't generally the case. Despite how young these children are, they are able to understand how their gender identity differs and we need to take them seriously when they tell us so.

(Source: https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf)



What is deadnaming and why is it bad?


Deadnaming is the act of calling a person who is transgender by their birth name after they've changed their name legally or asked you to use a different name.

When you refer to a person who is transgender by their non-affirmed name, it can feel invalidating. It can cause them to feel like you don't respect their identity, you don't support their transition, or that you don't wish to put forth the effort to make this necessary change.


Is being transgender a new thing?

"During the American Civil War, over 200 women donned men's clothing and fought as soldiers; some were transgender and lived the rest of their lives as men, such as Albert Cashier."

"The idea of someone changing sex was unknown to most people until news about Christine Jorgensen burst onto the scene in 1952. She was the first widely publicized person to have undergone sex reassignment surgery"
(Source: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/04/o...2-is-dead-was-first-to-have-a-sex-change.html)

"Lili Elbe was a Danish transgender woman and one of the first recipients of sex reassignment surgery. Elbe was born a male and was a successful painter in that guise. She also presented as Lili (sometimes spelled Lily). She transitioned in 1930 and made a legal name change to Lili Ilse Elvenes"
(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_Elbe)

If you have time and want to learn more, I'd recommend watching this documentary : https://www.facebook.com/katiecouric/videos/10154790608436005/

As well as this great video by John Oliver
 
Last edited:

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
Great post!

Just want to say to anyone out there who might be questioning their gender - you're not alone. And even if you feel you're too old, it's never too late to seek those answers. I'm in my early 40s and just recently finally accepted myself. So much time has been lost, but I like to focus on the fact that I didn't lose my entire life to a lie. It feels so much better to know who you are, no matter when that understanding happens. :) Be brave and look for those answers - it's so worth it!
 

TurokTTZ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
597
I've been buying for a friend of mine her estradiol for some time now. She hasn't seen a doctor and refuses to do so when I ask her. As a security contractor, I have access to many things, getting w/e I want is of no concern for someone like myself.

But I am concerned that my friend is taking hormones without supervision. And I've raised this issue to her many times as I also have transgender employees who receive their HRT and and appropriate doctor supervision as provided in their respective contracts. But if I refuse to give her medication, she throws a fit and says I don't support her transition. She currently lives in one of my many places of operations. Financially she isn't doing very well.

I want to help her but at the same time I am struggling to figure out what to do with her.
Any ideas? At least she keeps the place clean and I don't give a shit about her being jobless but I am concerned she isn't under doctor supervision like my transgender employees. But she absolutely refuses to see a doctor. Even one provided by me. What do I do? How do I convince her she needs to be supervised?
 

Just_a_Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,030
Great post, lots information here. This is the sort of stuff that should be included in the curriculum at early education levels going forward. Maybe in the future there would be less ignorance.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,647
I've been buying for a friend of mine her estradiol for some time now. She hasn't seen a doctor and refuses to do so when I ask her. As a security contractor, I have access to many things, getting w/e I want is of no concern for someone like myself.

But I am concerned that my friend is taking hormones without supervision. And I've raised this issue to her many times as I also have transgender employees who receive their HRT and and appropriate doctor supervision as provided in their respective contracts. But if I refuse to give her medication, she throws a fit and says I don't support her transition. She currently lives in one of my many places of operations. Financially she isn't doing very well.

I want to help her but at the same time I am struggling to figure out what to do with her.
Any ideas? At least she keeps the place clean and I don't give a shit about her being jobless but I am concerned she isn't under doctor supervision like my transgender employees. But she absolutely refuses to see a doctor. Even one provided by me. What do I do? How do I convince her she needs to be supervised?

DON'T DO THIS.

Self medicating and self dosing hormones can have devastating effects.

Why does she refuse to see a doctor?
 

SpaceSong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,024
Good thread. Was explaining this to a co-worker this week who kept making the awful argument that you can't identify as a cat and suddenly be a cat. 1) that's wrong because furries exist and changes the conversation entirely. 2) that's not the same as gender at all. I'm not certain I got through to them.

It's a shame what people will say to try and block the logic of understanding this simple thing about some people.
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
wow at the story of David Reimer, always wondered whether there had been a case like that. Very tragic but also very eye opening.

BTW, is this a place where we can ask questions, provided that the one who asks has already made an effort to educate herself?

Good thread. Was explaining this to a co-worker this week who kept making the awful argument that you can't identify as a cat and suddenly be a cat. 1) that's wrong because furries exist and changes the conversation entirely. 2) that's not the same as gender at all. I'm not certain I got through to them.

I don't want to deviate the thread immediately, but this thing about furry...I mean, I never understood it. That's basically just role playing, isn't it? I mean, it's something fairly unrelated to gender identity, right? Isn't it demeaning to put transgender people and...furries on the same level? But perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying (English is not my native language).
 
OP
OP
Ketkat

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I've been buying for a friend of mine her estradiol for some time now. She hasn't seen a doctor and refuses to do so when I ask her. As a security contractor, I have access to many things, getting w/e I want is of no concern for someone like myself.

But I am concerned that my friend is taking hormones without supervision. And I've raised this issue to her many times as I also have transgender employees who receive their HRT and and appropriate doctor supervision as provided in their respective contracts. But if I refuse to give her medication, she throws a fit and says I don't support her transition. She currently lives in one of my many places of operations. Financially she isn't doing very well.

I want to help her but at the same time I am struggling to figure out what to do with her.
Any ideas? At least she keeps the place clean and I don't give a shit about her being jobless but I am concerned she isn't under doctor supervision like my transgender employees. But she absolutely refuses to see a doctor. Even one provided by me. What do I do? How do I convince her she needs to be supervised?

That can be a bit difficult to deal with. If she's already getting HRT from you, then she probably doesn't see a need to go to the doctor because she might not see any immediate benefit. I'm not sure where you're located, but if its in a place where those checkups aren't free, she's likely having to make choices financially on what's necessary and what's not. Have you explained the risks that are involved with these when you gave her those medications? And do you have an understanding of what dosages you're handing out?

Good thread. Was explaining this to a co-worker this week who kept making the awful argument that you can't identify as a cat and suddenly be a cat. 1) that's wrong because furries exist and changes the conversation entirely. 2) that's not the same as gender at all. I'm not certain I got through to them.

It's a shame what people will say to try and block the logic of understanding this simple thing about some people.

The key to debunking arguments like that is to understand how its possible for someone's brain structure to be different from their body. They're going off the assumption that its physically impossible for a human to have a cat brain, while at the same time its also physically impossible for a transwoman to have a woman's brain. We just have to point to studies that show that there's a biological component to being transgender, while there's just no possible way for a biological component to give you anything related to an animal.

wow at the story of David Reimer, always wondered whether there had been a case like that. Very tragic but also very eye opening.

BTW, is this a place where we can ask questions, provided that the one who asks has already made an effort to educate herself?

You can ask any questions about this here.
 

Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
Very informative and educational OP. I appreciate you putting this together. I'll be sure to pop in here if I ever have some questions, though the OP alone is already really useful.
 

SpaceSong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,024
The key to debunking arguments like that is to understand how its possible for someone's brain structure to be different from their body. They're going off the assumption that its physically impossible for a human to have a cat brain, while at the same time its also physically impossible for a transwoman to have a woman's brain. We just have to point to studies that show that there's a biological component to being transgender, while there's just no possible way for a biological component to give you anything related to an animal.
Now that I have this handy thread with some links, I'll be better armed. Ty OP!
 

Saganator

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,389
Great post. Hopefully someone out there reads it and learns something. I remember all it took for me to understand trans people was one day in a Sociology 101 class where we briefly learned about trans people. I was raised right wing Christian so the idea of trans people went from being wrong and yucky to understanding and sympathy for the way their treated.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
I've been buying for a friend of mine her estradiol for some time now. She hasn't seen a doctor and refuses to do so when I ask her. As a security contractor, I have access to many things, getting w/e I want is of no concern for someone like myself.

But I am concerned that my friend is taking hormones without supervision. And I've raised this issue to her many times as I also have transgender employees who receive their HRT and and appropriate doctor supervision as provided in their respective contracts. But if I refuse to give her medication, she throws a fit and says I don't support her transition. She currently lives in one of my many places of operations. Financially she isn't doing very well.

I want to help her but at the same time I am struggling to figure out what to do with her.
Any ideas? At least she keeps the place clean and I don't give a shit about her being jobless but I am concerned she isn't under doctor supervision like my transgender employees. But she absolutely refuses to see a doctor. Even one provided by me. What do I do? How do I convince her she needs to be supervised?

Encouraging this is not helping her. Without medical supervision she could be doing tremendous damage to herself! Please pay for her to go see a doctor instead!
 

Emerson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
521
USA
I don't want to deviate the thread immediately, but this thing about furry...I mean, I never understood it. That's basically just role playing, isn't it? I mean, it's something fairly unrelated to gender identity, right? Isn't it demeaning to put transgender people and...furries on the same level? But perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying (English is not my native language).

As you say, none of it is actually comparable to transgender people, but most furries wouldn't claim to actually identify as animals. It's just a personality quirk and while generally a bit laughable, pretty harmless.

It's worth pointing out there are people on the internet who claim to identify as other species (e.g. cat-kin), which of course has zero basis in any science and, if genuine, is hard to characterize as anything other than a mental disorder.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,647
I've been buying for a friend of mine her estradiol for some time now. She hasn't seen a doctor and refuses to do so when I ask her. As a security contractor, I have access to many things, getting w/e I want is of no concern for someone like myself.

But I am concerned that my friend is taking hormones without supervision. And I've raised this issue to her many times as I also have transgender employees who receive their HRT and and appropriate doctor supervision as provided in their respective contracts. But if I refuse to give her medication, she throws a fit and says I don't support her transition. She currently lives in one of my many places of operations. Financially she isn't doing very well.

I want to help her but at the same time I am struggling to figure out what to do with her.
Any ideas? At least she keeps the place clean and I don't give a shit about her being jobless but I am concerned she isn't under doctor supervision like my transgender employees. But she absolutely refuses to see a doctor. Even one provided by me. What do I do? How do I convince her she needs to be supervised?

Also assuming she's pre-op or non-op (which I assume is the case)... just taking estrogen and not Testosterone blockers is risky as well....

Dosage and what not varies from person to person... what is too little for one could be an overdose for another. What is the average dose could be an overdose for an individual or be a massive underdose...
 

SpaceSong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,024
As you say, none of it is actually comparable to transgender people, but most furries wouldn't claim to actually identify as animals. It's just a personality quirk and while generally a bit laughable, pretty harmless.

It's worth pointing out there are people on the internet who claim to identify as other species (e.g. cat-kin), which of course has zero basis in any science and, if genuine, is hard to characterize as anything other than a mental disorder.
Right. It's why I urged the person I was arguing with that identifying as an animal is a thing but also changing the conversation entirely because of how different they are. This isn't who they are as a functioning person. It's, as you say, a quirk.
 

Deleted member 9971

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,743
Fantastic post OP, personally i have no problem with trans people because everyone has a right to be themselves.

Myself i fully support the LBGTQ community since well i'm bi + i support people bein emselves, hopefully someday the stigma wil be truly gone, things have improved but there still is lots of discrimination and more.

Anyway cool to see a thread about it if i have any questions about it i know where to be. Personally i like being a male but i do have some female quirks in my brain that are part of my personality.
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
You can ask any questions about this here. The goal is to help educate on it

All right, thank you. Kind of a basic question really, but how common do you think it is for people who are not comfortable with their gender to have problems when it comes to romantic relationships and sex life in general? What I think I'm trying to ask is: do you think it is possible that some problems pertaining one's sex life may be caused by other issues related to gender? That is, is it far fetched for one to question her gender if one of the primary motivation is sort of a latent feeling of discomfort and perhaps of hopelessness when thinking about intimate relationships?

Yeah I know, kind of a very vague and stupid and personal question, but I feel more confident about asking it here than on any of the gender positive subreddits, because it feels like talking to people I know as opposed to complete strangers.
 

ADee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
963
Sweden
Sorry if I offend someone, but I don't have any transgender in my "circle" so I want to ask a question to those who identifies as the opposite gender of what they are born with.
Does transgender come from the social norm that a girl has to be "feminime" and a boy has to be "masculine"? If the roles/views in the society was exactly the same (only the biological things are different) no matter the gender would some people who are trans now still consider themself as the opposite gender?
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
So, looking at the OP, you could measure if someone has a male or female brain at birth, no? So would people be in favour of correcting the 'mistake' right out the gate? Baby's born, measure that element of the brain, realign the sex immediately?

If there is a definitive way to determine if the desire to live as the other sex is biological, rather than psychological, would it not make sense to correct it before the child is even aware of gender, and if anyone isn't biologically the other, not to treat them with physical realignment?
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
Sorry if I offend someone, but I don't have any transgender in my "circle" so I want to ask a question to those who identifies as the opposite gender of what they are born with.
Does transgender come from the social norm that a girl has to be "feminime" and a boy has to be "masculine"? If the roles/views in the society was exactly the same (only the biological things are different) no matter the gender would some people who are trans now still consider themself as the opposite gender?

What you are describing as feminine and masculine is gender expression, if I'm not mistaken, which is different to gender identity. So to answer your question, yes in your hypothetical society there would be transgender people. Though sex ("biological things") is not the only factor to consider.

With that said I urge you to wait for other posters to answer you because I've been educating myself on the subject recently but I'm not very confident about a few things, so I may have gotten it wrong. I hope I'm not spreading misinformation (so don't quote this text please so that later I can eventually alter the post)
 

DonShula

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
I'll try to ask this without screwing it up, but no guarantees. I also promise this question comes from a desire to understand this better. I'm not posing a question as a foundation to start an argument against anything.

Original post mentions the difference between being transgender and gender non-conforming. Then there's the fact that gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same. How would one describe the feeling of identifying as a particular gender absent gender non-confirming activities or preferences? I only have my own experiences to draw from; I'd say I identify as a male, but that's because I'm biologically a dude, I prefer stereotypical male activities and am heterosexual. If I strip those away, I'm not sure what intrinsically makes me male. Maybe nothing? I'd just like to understand a little better the feelings of identifying as a particular gender given the info provided in the OP.

Edit- looks like a similar question was asked in the time it took me to write this.
 
Dec 28, 2017
169
So I do have a question and if I phrase it incorrectly I do apologise. My intention is to be educated not to judge.

So obviously gender identity is very important to a transgender. But why? What is it about being a man or a woman that makes said transperson identify as one?
I am a male. But that purely because I have a schlong. If you asked me what it means to be a man I couldnt give you a good answer.
As such I dont know what is so special about it. Same with being a woman. I don't get why being a gender is important to some people? What makes you feel so strongly about it?
 

Sphinx

Member
Nov 29, 2017
2,381
"Lili Elbe was a Danish transgender woman and one of the first recipients of sex reassignment surgery. Elbe was born a male and was a successful painter in that guise. She also presented as Lili (sometimes spelled Lily). She transitioned in 1930 and made a legal name change to Lili Ilse Elvenes"
(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_Elbe)

yesterday I saw The Danish Girl, the movie with Ed. Redmayne and A. Vikander.

perfectly awarded oscar for her, a tour de force of emotions,

movie ending spoilers

She contained the suffering and frustration for most of the movie, she was never a crying mess, but at the end when Lily dies, she nailed the feeling and the big tears, a perfect crescendo of a performance
 

Vivian

Member
Oct 26, 2017
325
England
So, looking at the OP, you could measure if someone has a male or female brain at birth, no? So would people be in favour of correcting the 'mistake' right out the gate? Baby's born, measure that element of the brain, realign the sex immediately?

If there is a definitive way to determine if the desire to live as the other sex is biological, rather than psychological, would it not make sense to correct it before the child is even aware of gender, and if anyone isn't biologically the other, not to treat them with physical realignment?
IIRC it's a statistical correlation, not an exact classifier, because there's massive overlap between male and female brains. You can't tell from looking at a single brain whether it's male or female, but if you take a larger data set then the averages per gender are different. A trans woman's brain is statistically more likely to be closer to a cis woman's brain than a cis man's brain and vice versa for trans men, but that's not a 100% classifier.
 
OP
OP
Ketkat

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
All right, thank you. Kind of a basic question really, but how common do you think it is for people who are not comfortable with their gender to have problems when it comes to romantic relationships and sex life in general? What I think I'm trying to ask is: do you think it is possible that some problems pertaining one's sex life may be caused by other issues related to gender? That is, is it far fetched for one to question her gender if one of the primary motivation is sort of a latent feeling of discomfort and perhaps of hopelessness when thinking about intimate relationships?

Yeah I know, kind of a very vague and stupid and personal question, but I feel more confident about asking it here than on any of the gender positive subreddits, because it feels like talking to people I know as opposed to complete strangers.

Its definitely possible that being trans can affect your sex life. Some trans people despise their genitals and that can easily get in the way of sex. I could definitely see it being a primary motivator to avoid relationships. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be more comfortable with your body as a primary motivator for questioning gender either.

Sorry if I offend someone, but I don't have any transgender in my "circle" so I want to ask a question to those who identifies as the opposite gender of what they are born with.
Does transgender come from the social norm that a girl has to be "feminime" and a boy has to be "masculine"? If the roles/views in the society was exactly the same (only the biological things are different) no matter the gender would some people who are trans now still consider themself as the opposite gender?

No, it doesn't come from gender roles/expression at all. I was never into stereotypically girly things as a child, yet I still felt that disconnect. It has to do with the innate sense of identity that's inside of you. Its difficult to describe what that identity is, seeing as people don't seem to notice it unless its out of alignment. We know there's a biological basis for it, which points to gender roles not being the primary issue.

So I do have a question and if I phrase it incorrectly I do apologise. My intention is to be educated not to judge.

So obviously gender identity is very important to a transgender. But why? What is it about being a man or a woman that makes said transperson identify as one?
I am a male. But that purely because I have a schlong. If you asked me what it means to be a man I couldnt give you a good answer.
As such I dont know what is so special about it. Same with being a woman. I don't get why being a gender is important to some people? What makes you feel so strongly about it?

What makes us feel so strongly about it is the massive amount of discomfort that some of us experience when our bodies go through the wrong puberty. Its painful and directly leads to depression and suicidal ideation.
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
Excellent OP, easy to read and full of useful information and answers to common questions. Well done!

I have a question that popped up on older threads about transgender issues, which is how does one square the circle of gender essentialism with the concept of gender as a social construct? On the one hand, much of what we know about the supposed traits or roles for men and women are socially prescribed and enforced (men at work, women in the kitchen, blue/pink for men/women, etc.) as learned behaviors that can unlearned or deemphasized. You can have someone be a gender non-conformist who still identifies with their birth gender (your example of tomboys being a good example). On the other hand, there clearly is a biological component to gender with regards to brain structure, and said biological component is critical to understanding transgenderism as a legitimate medical phenomenon and not a matter of choice or mere preference.

The issue of the question concerns people who are gender non-conformist about their trans identity, such as a transwoman who presents as a man or a transman who presents as a woman. Speaking only for myself, I have no issue with cis or trans people expressing their gender in whatever way they please and am more than willing to take them on their word when it comes to such an intimate, personal facet of their identity. I have seen, however, many people on this board and the old board express frustration over this seeming contradiction, and I think it might be helpful to go into the details of how those two theories of gender intersect.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,648
A mountain in the US
I have a kind of question? It's probably not even worth mentioning, but I suppose I'm curious. So I've had transgender friends since I was in college, and it pushed me to get educated. Never really had much confusion about anything, but something with one of my friends recently surprised me. I knew her years before her transition, and she's always been attracted only to women. A few years after her transition, she's still exclusively been dating women. Recently, she started dating someone, and I was surprised to hear that the significant other is a transgender man.

She hasn't, according to her, been attracted to men before this. I'm concerned that some of the things she likes about this man are some of his feminine traits, and the fact that he hasn't had bottom surgery, and this feels to me a bit... invalidating? I wouldn't question her on it, because it's not my business. I suppose my question is whether it's common to recognize an attraction to a sex not previously had until transitioning. I'd never heard of this before. It's not, in this case, just feeling more free to be romantic with a sex that previously had a societal stigma. These were not feelings of attraction previously held.
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
Thank you for the kind answer. I fear you'll be bombarded with questions lol. I'll refrain for asking more for a little bit because I don't want to add mine too.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,185
Canada
Great OT, OP.

But for real thanks for the info, infographics, and stats Ketkat. It's such a shame to see the level of verbal, physical, and mental abuse trans folk tend to go through on top of already complicated feelings they personally navigate. .... I can't even imagine.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
IIRC it's a statistical correlation, not an exact classifier, because there's massive overlap between male and female brains. You can't tell from looking at a single brain whether it's male or female, but if you take a larger data set then the averages per gender are different. A trans woman's brain is statistically more likely to be closer to a cis woman's brain than a cis man's brain and vice versa for trans men, but that's not a 100% classifier.
That's unfortunate.

But if we ever can, if it's ever as simple as when they do the little blood test prick on the ball of the foot, if it's flagged as a body/brain misalignment, would people here support the gender be changed immediately? I've no doubt it's a difficult thing to determine, but your DNA has the instructions for the construction of every part of the individual, if men and women's brains are in any way definitively different, it should be just a case of identifying which part of the DNA relates to that difference and testing it at birth.

In fact, beyond that, maybe one day you could do it in utero in the cases of women being born with male bodies, as every embryo is female as default.
 

Whizper

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
40
To add to the scientific explanation, a recent study performed by the University of Wisonsin-Madison shows that the sexual dimorphism between "male" and "female" brains is clearly visible in infants. A study published in 2005 shows that a rare genetic anomaly can lead to brain development being unaffected by testosterone (it was a followup to the 1995 study mentioned in the OP if I remember correctly), suggesting transgender people are quite literally born that way, so obviously neither hormones, drugs nor therapy could do anything about it. Transgender people don't just identify as the opposite gender, their brain, which for all intents and purposes is what defines us, literally is that of the opposite gender.
 

Geirskogul

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,022
I've been buying for a friend of mine her estradiol for some time now. She hasn't seen a doctor and refuses to do so when I ask her. As a security contractor, I have access to many things, getting w/e I want is of no concern for someone like myself.

But I am concerned that my friend is taking hormones without supervision. And I've raised this issue to her many times as I also have transgender employees who receive their HRT and and appropriate doctor supervision as provided in their respective contracts. But if I refuse to give her medication, she throws a fit and says I don't support her transition. She currently lives in one of my many places of operations. Financially she isn't doing very well.

I want to help her but at the same time I am struggling to figure out what to do with her.
Any ideas? At least she keeps the place clean and I don't give a shit about her being jobless but I am concerned she isn't under doctor supervision like my transgender employees. But she absolutely refuses to see a doctor. Even one provided by me. What do I do? How do I convince her she needs to be supervised?

It's possible she's had some bad experiences with medical professionals in the past, a lot of us have. I've had pharmacists who've refused to fill my prescriptions, therapists who refused to give me a letter of approval for HRT until I had given them enough money, and endos who have refused to increase my dosages despite pathetically low hormone levels.
The state of Trans healthcare in this country is abysmal. A lot of doctors are flat-out hostile, and many more who mean well are completely ignorant and have no idea what they are doing.

If she doesn't want to see a doctor, there are ways to order blood tests online and then walk into a nearby lab without ever having to talk to a doctor. That way you can monitor your liver and hormone levels without ever having to deal with a doctor.

I know I am totally fed up with my doctor (i have the E levels of a post-menopausal woman which she seems to think is perfectly okay...) and if she doesn't give me what I want the next time I see her I am done with her and just going full DIY instead.

Also it's wonderful that you're helping your friend get access to medication that she desperately needs, but in most cases estradiol alone is insufficient to achieve the correct levels in mtf HRT. Most need an antu-androgen to suppress their testosterone. If you're willing, get her some cyproterone acetate from an online pharmacy (it's often called procur or androcur). It will cost about $60 dollars for a 7 month supply which comes out to about $9 a month
 
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Truant

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,774
Great thread, very informative. There will probably be some stuff I will never truly understand, but y'all have my full support no matter what.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,200
Seems like a great thread to me. Thanks for posting.

I don't think I've had the opportunity of interacting with a lot of trans people at a deep level. But there was an incident where my team was hosting an event with someone who was trans, and I admittedly became very flustered because I didn't know the etiquette of the situation. This was my first time meeting them. It had been mentioned to me in advance that this person was trans, but not what their gender was. I was afraid that I would misgender them and I didn't want to assume. This was also a public event, so I was also concerned because there was always an audience when we talked, and I felt uncomfortable about asking in front of others.

I might be making things worse by overthinking, but is there any etiquette advice I can get so that I'm less likely to alienate someone?
 

legacyzero

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,252
Thanks for the thread. Read it with my morning coffee.

There was one part that stood out to me, regarding deadnaming and misgendering. I know that (as a straight white dude) I've done this multiple times, but it's never been on purpose, or with ill-intent.

Example: Innes McKendrick works for Hello Games (the small dev team that made No Man's Sky). A brilliant coder. I followed this game for the entirety of its dev cycle. Even made a decent YouTube channel from it. Innes spent the majority of that dev cycle as "Hazel McKendrick". Presumably a female to all of us that followed the team.

In the game's final year of development, "Hazel" came out as transgender, as had already been working on transition. His reveal on Twitter was pretty cool, revealing his name as Innes. I even had to ask him how to say the name for my future coverage of he game, to which he generously helped out. (Rhymes with Guiness).

But the trouble is, I, as well as many of my fellow youtubers were so used to referring to him as Hazel and a female for 3 years, we struggled to break the habit. Most of the time, we would correct ourselves and apologize. This probably happened for months. Especially on live streams. Not really a thing anymore.

So question: is it at least acceptable to differentiate those that deliberately dead name and misgender from those that mistakenly do it out of force of habit. And how should a person making that mistake handle correcting it, that would be acceptable.

Also- follow Innes on Twitter. Pretty badass dev, and strong advocate for exposure for trans devs.

 
OP
OP
Ketkat

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
That's unfortunate.

But if we ever can, if it's ever as simple as when they do the little blood test prick on the ball of the foot, if it's flagged as a body/brain misalignment, would people here support the gender be changed immediately? I've no doubt it's a difficult thing to determine, but your DNA has the instructions for the construction of every part of the individual, if men and women's brains are in any way definitively different, it should be just a case of identifying which part of the DNA relates to that difference and testing it at birth.

In fact, beyond that, maybe one day you could do it in utero in the cases of women being born with male bodies, as every embryo is female as default.

We're nowhere close to having all of that figured out to really worry about that too much. But at the same time, its important to remember that nonbinary people exist. So I'm not sure it'll really be as simple as fixing it in utero solves all the problems.

I have a kind of question? It's probably not even worth mentioning, but I suppose I'm curious. So I've had transgender friends since I was in college, and it pushed me to get educated. Never really had much confusion about anything, but something with one of my friends recently surprised me. I knew her years before her transition, and she's always been attracted only to women. A few years after her transition, she's still exclusively been dating women. Recently, she started dating someone, and I was surprised to hear that the significant other is a transgender man.

She hasn't, according to her, been attracted to men before this. I'm concerned that some of the things she likes about this man are some of his feminine traits, and the fact that he hasn't had bottom surgery, and this feels to me a bit... invalidating? I wouldn't question her on it, because it's not my business. I suppose my question is whether it's common to recognize an attraction to a sex not previously had until transitioning. I'd never heard of this before. It's not, in this case, just feeling more free to be romantic with a sex that previously had a societal stigma. These were not feelings of attraction previously held.

As people come to understand themselves better, its entirely possible for them to notice that they're attracted to people that they never realized they were before. Trans people aren't an exception to this, and I've heard of plenty of transpeople who realize that they're attracted to something different than what they thought once they're able to get past the initial hurdles of HRT.

Seems like a great thread to me. Thanks for posting.

I don't think I've had the opportunity of interacting with a lot of trans people at a deep level. But there was an incident where my team was hosting an event with someone who was trans, and I admittedly became very flustered because I didn't know the etiquette of the situation. This was my first time meeting them. It had been mentioned to me in advance that this person was trans, but not what their gender was. I was afraid that I would misgender them and I didn't want to assume. This was also a public event, so I was also concerned because there was always an audience when we talked, and I felt uncomfortable about asking in front of others.

I might be making things worse by overthinking, but is there any etiquette advice I can get so that I'm less likely to alienate someone?

The proper etiquette is just to try and be as respectful as possible. The next time that someone is giving you a heads up that someone is trans, just ask what pronouns they prefer. Hopefully, they're just telling you that so that you can be respectful. People make mistakes, and that's okay. You just have to apologize and make an effort to not do it again.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Regarding dead naming. The Matrix is about to release on UHD, presuming the credits are unedited, it will cite The Wachowski Brothers as having written and directed the film. Does referring to that film as having been made by those people using that term constitute dead naming?
 

Vivian

Member
Oct 26, 2017
325
England
That's unfortunate.

But if we ever can, if it's ever as simple as when they do the little blood test prick on the ball of the foot, if it's flagged as a body/brain misalignment, would people here support the gender be changed immediately? I've no doubt it's a difficult thing to determine, but your DNA has the instructions for the construction of every part of the individual, if men and women's brains are in any way definitively different, it should be just a case of identifying which part of the DNA relates to that difference and testing it at birth.

In fact, beyond that, maybe one day you could do it in utero in the cases of women being born with male bodies, as every embryo is female as default.
I still don't think so. Gender isn't as simple as a male/female switch - you're ignoring the existence of non-binary people that don't identify exclusively as male or female. If there's something odd about the child, I would wait until they're able to express their gender and make their own decision. Pretty much all outwards gender characteristics other than the genitals develop during puberty, so give puberty blockers until they've decided what they want to do.

Also, DNA isn't the only factor in brain development. There are epigenetic factors in the womb too (the mother's hormone levels during pregnancy), which won't show up in DNA.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
I still don't think so. Gender isn't as simple as a male/female switch - you're ignoring the existence of non-binary people that don't identify exclusively as male or female. If there's something odd about the child, I would wait until they're able to express their gender and make their own decision. Pretty much all outwards gender characteristics other than the genitals develop during puberty, so give puberty blockers until they've decided what they want to do.

Also, DNA isn't the only factor in brain development. There are epigenetic factors in the womb too (the mother's hormone levels during pregnancy), which won't show up in DNA.
Sure, but non-binary people still have a binary physiology, there is no physical rectification for that, so people can't be expected to fix it realistically.

It just seems like waiting for puberty is the worst possible time to have to deal with this. It's when everyone is at the most uncomfortable and everyone is struggling with their identify. It couldn't come at a worse time.

Like many people above, I've never felt 'male', I don't know what that means. Sure, I'm attracted to women, and liked Terminator 2 over Little Women or whatever, but those things don't feel 'male' to me. Essentially, stripping away the fact I have a penis and I'm hairy, I don't 'feel' any gender. It's purely superficial.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,647
If she doesn't want to see a doctor, there are ways to order blood tests online and then walk into a nearby lab without ever having to talk to a doctor. That way you can monitor your liver and hormone levels without ever having to deal with a doctor.

Please don't ask a non trained person to now also monitor liver and hormone levels...
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
Sure, but non-binary people still have a binary physiology, there is no physical rectification for that, so people can't be expected to fix it realistically.

It just seems like waiting for puberty is the worst possible time to have to deal with this. It's when everyone is at the most uncomfortable and everyone is struggling with their identify. It couldn't come at a worse time.

Like many people above, I've never felt 'male', I don't know what that means. Sure, I'm attracted to women, and liked Terminator 2 over Little Women or whatever, but those things don't feel 'male' to me. Essentially, stripping away the fact I have a penis and I'm hairy, I don't 'feel' any gender. It's purely superficial.

I mean, if you started taking estrogen and testosterone blockers you might feel differently enough to realize something is off. Sometimes it's the absence of something that makes us appreciate its existence.
 

TurokTTZ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
597
Before I start, I will say I am located in texas. The lady I speak of resides in same state but in a different city. I travel often. Now to answer some responses...

DON'T DO THIS.

Self medicating and self dosing hormones can have devastating effects.

Why does she refuse to see a doctor?

She has had some bad experiences with transphobic doctors. She is also an introvert so this only adds to the trouble I am having.

That can be a bit difficult to deal with. If she's already getting HRT from you, then she probably doesn't see a need to go to the doctor because she might not see any immediate benefit. I'm not sure where you're located, but if its in a place where those checkups aren't free, she's likely having to make choices financially on what's necessary and what's not. Have you explained the risks that are involved with these when you gave her those medications? And do you have an understanding of what dosages you're handing out?
Not really. I do understand however that HRT can lead to death if not supervised, says my top medic. Which is why I am concerned. No no, you don't understand. I tried. Even offered her a doctor in my employ to supervise her situation at no charge. She absolutely refuses to see one.

Encouraging this is not helping her. Without medical supervision she could be doing tremendous damage to herself! Please pay for her to go see a doctor instead!
Read above.

Also assuming she's pre-op or non-op (which I assume is the case)... just taking estrogen and not Testosterone blockers is risky as well....

Dosage and what not varies from person to person... what is too little for one could be an overdose for another. What is the average dose could be an overdose for an individual or be a massive underdose...
She is currently on a plan without "anti androgens" as I understand it. Though I know not where she got this plan or if it's her own design.

In any case I won't stop trying but I got my work cut out for me. It's been over a year I think. Maybe me giving her support was a bad idea?
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
I have a few questions because I'm curious but I admit that I'm mostly ignorant about things in regards to transgender. This thread is really helping me understand some things however.

How does the trans community view cross-dressers? Are they offensive, or are they seen as alright as long as they don't try to misinform people about what it means to be transgender? I'm talking about the kind of cross-dresser where a man might be fully confident in being viewed as a man but loves to publicly wear dresses either as a joke or for reactions (or maybe just genuinely enjoys it but society views it as weird).

Also, I've seen the term transsexual before, including in the OP. Is this different from transgender or is it an antiquated term?
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,647
So question: is it at least acceptable to differentiate those that deliberately dead name and misgender from those that mistakenly do it out of force of habit. And how should a person making that mistake handle correcting it, that would be acceptable.

I mean ironically you deadnamed in your post... when it wasn't necessary.

Most trans people aren't going to rip out your jugular if you do it by accident but it'll get frustrating if you keep doing it and doing it... and saying sorry and sorry and sorry.

That said if someone reacts strongly to it... don't shame them for it.
 

Geirskogul

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,022
Please don't ask a non trained person to now also monitor liver and hormone levels...

Please stop putting doctors on a pedestal, especially when it comes to trans healthcare where many of them do far more harm than good with their excessive gatekeeping and sheer ignorance.

You don't need a doctor to look at values from a blood test result (Total Testosterone, Total Estradiol, Alanine transaminase are the 3 you'd need) and then compare them to a normal healthy range for someone your age, something my doctor is seemingly incapable of herself. My E2 is at a post-menopausal 49 pg/mL (ideal range is 200-300 pg/mL) yet she insists that is perfectly fine and refuses to increase my dosage or switch me to injections.