The Whole "You Stole From Us/Our Culture" Thing
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Miley was past "cultural appropriation" and was physically using black women as props for her act
Miley was past "cultural appropriation" and was physically using black women as props for her act
a lot of conservatives explicitly hated elvis in his prime because he was exposing impressionable white youths to "negro music"
and those 1950s conservatives' kids have grown up to be the same kind of dickheads, and many of them have elvis shit all over their houses, and probably hate their kids listening to rap and hip hop
funny how the more things change the more they stay the same
miley wishes she had that asshttp://i./i/pix/2014/02/24/article-0-1BC619DA00000578-115_634x556.jpg
Miley was past "cultural appropriation" and was physically using black women as props for her act
Do you really care about this? Like are you honestly really that upset that some white person twerked? Because like who gives a shit.
When it comes to appropriation, I think culture should be appropriated. If an idea is good, more people should do it by definition. This applies to music, art, everything. Like getting pissy over which band did what thing first and who ripped off who and who is more original is just straight up pissy 9th grader shit and it's embarrassing to not have grown out of by then. This is literally what I got bent out of shape about when I was a 9th grader. Especially when it's a fact that nothing artistic ever exists in a vacuum.
Plagiarism is wrong. Not crediting artists and songwriters is wrong. But being influenced by something isn't just normal it's inevitable. And regarding how fair it is that some artists invented a style, and other artists became popular emulating the style. I mean yeah sure. But music and popularity have never been a meritocracy and pretty much by definition popular music is the least innovative. All popular music is built off of thousands, probably millions of artists who pushed boundaries and forged new territories who never got the recognition they deserved.
Tangentially related to the topic at hand- the problem with things like Halloween costumes and black face is stereotyping, caricature and ridiculing other ethnicities. Not appropriation.
Yeah I see where you're coming from.
I mean, miley has a huge audience of white chicks and I don't think her rapping or wearing grillz necessarily does anything to silence the cultures those things come from but I do understand why it would be frustrating so see someone blow up for doing something that another culture has been repping for ages.
You mean the France that has one of the greatest number of designation protected foodstuffs in the world?
Appropriation in terms of music (also food) makes little sense because of how it is an amalgamation of culture unless it's to shit on in some way and stolen like some examples in this thread have shown, that Post Malone guy (haven't heard of him before this) I think is a good example.
Any ways let's take some common genres, they share roots.
Amalgamation of African and European folk music and traditions gave rise to new music culture in the U.S, such as blues. Blues further gave way to jazz/vocal jazz. Latin music gave way to disco music and that with vocal jazz gave way to hip hop. Metal music emerged from blues, and metal over the decades emerged and has lost that influence so you don't hear that influence any more because of how the genre and its subgenres like trash metal, death metal, black metal emerged. Much like hip hop, it has developed a lot from its origins so that now these are just historical origins that active influences. Metal today can't even be attributed to any culture due to its listening demographic and how many bands come from around the world, people think white people listen to metal the most, but due to how global it is, Latin Americans are the biggest demographic of metal fans by far.
Now if we look into instruments themselves, it becomes even more apparent, all the instruments used to make these sounds for these various genres of music come from many corners across the world, we wouldn't have music as we know it without the amalgamation of culture. Think about percussion and guitar, its instruments and styles come from Europe and Asia, which are both crucial to blues and jazz music in itself that emerged in the U.S, combined with folk traditions from Africa and Europe.
Any ways let's take some common genres, they share roots.
Amalgamation of African and European folk music and traditions gave rise to new music culture in the U.S, such as blues. Blues further gave way to jazz/vocal jazz. Latin music gave way to disco music and that with vocal jazz gave way to hip hop. Metal music emerged from blues, and metal over the decades emerged and has lost that influence so you don't hear that influence any more because of how the genre and its subgenres like trash metal, death metal, black metal emerged. Much like hip hop, it has developed a lot from its origins so that now these are just historical origins that active influences. Metal today can't even be attributed to any culture due to its listening demographic and how many bands come from around the world, people think white people listen to metal the most, but due to how global it is, Latin Americans are the biggest demographic of metal fans by far.
Now if we look into instruments themselves, it becomes even more apparent, all the instruments used to make these sounds for these various genres of music come from many corners across the world, we wouldn't have music as we know it without the amalgamation of culture. Think about percussion and guitar, its instruments and styles come from Europe and Asia, which are both crucial to blues and jazz music in itself that emerged in the U.S, combined with folk traditions from Africa and Europe.
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You missed the point by a mile with this.
The idea behind appropriation is that when people do a thing, then people from the majority ethnicity or hegemonic group deride that thing as trashy, uncultured, dangerous, worthy of scorn, etc...Until a person that looks like them does that exact same thing, in which case it's hailed as good, brilliant, pure, innovative, groud-breaking, edgy, cool, and so on.
Braids and dreadlocks were treated this way. Cholo fashion was treated this way. Hoop earrings, believe it or not, were treated this way. So there are pieces of people's identities that are commonly denigrated being picked up by the people doing the denigrating, which miraculously changes the whole perspective on said pieces of identity.
Returning again to hairstyles: a Black woman wearing certain textures of natural hair will be looked at as messy or unkempt. If that same woman wears braids, there's a distinct possibility that she will be disciplined for this. If a Black man is wearing braids or dreadlocks, he's seen in some circles as unemployable, dangerous, etc. If Post Malone wears dreads, it's just a cool look.
Don't a bunch of loan words in fine dining come from the French language?
no, not that one. France, Arizona.
The line between appropriation and inspiration isn't an invisible one, its a pretty clearly defined and thick line with plenty of room. But people keep trying to erase it.
I really don't think anyone ever got upset because some white person twerked.
I think to ignore everything that's been said in this thread and reduce what Lion was saying to simply being upset that a white person twerked is pretty shitty
rolling stone 2013
2017 mike will interview
another quote from mike-will in 2013
4 years later this is exactly what everyone is saying
I already posted the quotes that people read only headlines of
"miley felt sexualized because of the twerking!!!" which she didn't say at all and then you post a 2015 video of psychedelic miley her singing my neck my back
"miley hates hip-hop now because she is country now!" taken from her just saying she doesn't like how a lot of it is misogynistic which a lot of other people have said and then you somehow combine this quote with the sexualized quote
hip-hop 2013
psychedelic flaming lips 2015
then whatever 2017 was which was more of her country roots but wasn't actually country
and remember!!
and then these :^) which I notice nobody responded to because they didn't know
that bangerz did sell
I also love the whole backup dancers are props thing too
you know Miley is still friends with the la bakers and amazon ashley?
oh you don't know who they are? they are the "props" you love to call them. you're totally the better person! calling people props!
and bonus here is michael b jordan with Miley and saying "I love you guys"
https://www.instagram.com/p/BFBBfJFFO3v/?taken-by=leesaamaree
2017 mike will interview
another quote from mike-will in 2013
4 years later this is exactly what everyone is saying
I already posted the quotes that people read only headlines of
"miley felt sexualized because of the twerking!!!" which she didn't say at all and then you post a 2015 video of psychedelic miley her singing my neck my back
"miley hates hip-hop now because she is country now!" taken from her just saying she doesn't like how a lot of it is misogynistic which a lot of other people have said and then you somehow combine this quote with the sexualized quote
hip-hop 2013
psychedelic flaming lips 2015
then whatever 2017 was which was more of her country roots but wasn't actually country
and remember!!
and then these :^) which I notice nobody responded to because they didn't know
that bangerz did sell
I also love the whole backup dancers are props thing too
you know Miley is still friends with the la bakers and amazon ashley?
oh you don't know who they are? they are the "props" you love to call them. you're totally the better person! calling people props!
and bonus here is michael b jordan with Miley and saying "I love you guys"
https://www.instagram.com/p/BFBBfJFFO3v/?taken-by=leesaamaree
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I don't think you really get to complain about how hip-hop is misogynistic after you slap a lot of black ass (that isn't your own) on stage with your tongue out.
At least not if you're a famous white girl who made money doing that.
Elvis had black friends too lol. That's a poor argument.
At least not if you're a famous white girl who made money doing that.
Elvis had black friends too lol. That's a poor argument.
Miley Cyrus is not just some white person. And yes, people should feel upset when their cultural artifacts are wrested away, misrepresented, commoditized, and then discarded by an outsider, especially when that outsider is part of a larger group that continuously denies the contributions, lives and experiences of people that don't look like them.
It's absolutely true that the music industry and the art world in general is littered with countless millions who pushed boundaries and didn't receive recognition. Pushing boundaries, however, implies that something novel has been done. When you take from another culture, you're not doing anything particularly novel. You're only "pushing boundaries" in the eyes of an audience unfamiliar with the culture you're stealing from. The only novel aspect is that it's you doing it and not the people you stole it from. That's not good art, that's not admirable behavior, and it's not wrong to question it.
Also, please don't call people who disagree with you 9th graders.
but their friends in real life tho, did you know that?
(are they really friends in real life though?)
Appropriation is usually only an issue when something birthed in a certain community is taken out of it without any respect for its origins and without giving any credit to its creators. Also, some things require permission to use. Some things may never be granted permission. No, you jumping around with native american attire and smoking "peace pipes" in your "tee pees" for your fraternity rituals will not go over well. For example.
you guys should see the exhibit at the Rock Hall in Cleveland. It's quite complete. Nothing but black faces on the early days of rock.
oh yea fam. the black community created rock & roll.
you guys should see the exhibit at the Rock Hall in Cleveland. It's quite complete. Nothing but black faces on the early days of rock.
I say that because that was my perspective before I became a musician and studied up on music history and had to perform music for a living.
"Openess to share" and taking advantage of institutions already in place to own and corner the market on culture are two different things. Black artists getting the credit now doesn't magically undue years on years of complex racial history in the (American) music industry. No matter how much you believe Institutional Racism doesn't exist or doesn't matter.
In fact, the great equalizer in technology has been the voice given to minorites to finally give pushback.
I mean even when confronted with a clear example you brush it off as "daddy issues" and say she's not culturally appropriating because she's rich and therefore clearly doesn't need to after she drops it.
Your original example comes from literal decades of build up by the French including exporting culturally French goods to the rest of the world. They had the opportunity to do it due to the systems in place. Which I don't think can be said for black people until very recently.
I would recommend reading the other comment I quoted on the 6th page.
It seems that what you and many, many others overlook is that the biggest issue with appropriation is when the originators are reviled while the appropriators are revered.
Doubt you care though, from the tone of that post
This is one of those threads where unless the OP actually gives any examples for the rest of us to discuss, most of the replies are just going to be people arguing parallel to each other about what they assume the other person is talking about.
The most likely direct cause was assertions made in the now-locked "what is white culture" thread about origins of types of music in America, or similar discussion that for some reason came up in the "I think criticizing America is anti-American" thread
Does it? I haven't been there in forever. I see that Sister Rosetta Tharpe wasn't chosen for induction until 2017? The Rock Hall be on some bullshit, that's why I don't really fuck it
I think some people in this thread are being deliberately obtuse with all this "I think cultural sharing is good!" shit.
Sharing isn't the same as appropriation. The distinction has been demarcated a hundred times in this thread already. For god's sake, read the replies.
Also, to fellow white people reading this: I'm a white guy and I understand why a lot of white people feel attacked when this topic comes up. It's easy to interpret an implication that white people are UNIQUELY more inclined to theft or appropriation, and I think it's important to understand that while anyone and any culture is able to appropriate or abuse another culture, the difference is that white people have near total control of machinery of mainstream culture in the United States. Both as consumers (ie white audiences are more numerous and more wealthy and able to consume commercial culture) and as producers or platform holders (ie owners of cultural venues: radio, tv, film studios, record labels, etc) and as performers who have access platforms and audiences. White people wield immense cultural power. And while anyone is capable of appropriation, in this moment there are far more white people capable of appropriation AT SCALE. It's less an inclination for appropriation than a unique affordance for appropriation. Appropriation by the white community is felt by all communities, and it's incumbent on white people to be respectful of the kind of cultural power they wield. So I guess that's my answer to the annoying "Why do we only care when white people appropriate!" gimmick.
ALSO: None of the above even touches on the racist legacy of our mainstream culture. That's important too, but I think even without considering it, it should still be possible for people to understand why appropriation is real.
Sharing isn't the same as appropriation. The distinction has been demarcated a hundred times in this thread already. For god's sake, read the replies.
Also, to fellow white people reading this: I'm a white guy and I understand why a lot of white people feel attacked when this topic comes up. It's easy to interpret an implication that white people are UNIQUELY more inclined to theft or appropriation, and I think it's important to understand that while anyone and any culture is able to appropriate or abuse another culture, the difference is that white people have near total control of machinery of mainstream culture in the United States. Both as consumers (ie white audiences are more numerous and more wealthy and able to consume commercial culture) and as producers or platform holders (ie owners of cultural venues: radio, tv, film studios, record labels, etc) and as performers who have access platforms and audiences. White people wield immense cultural power. And while anyone is capable of appropriation, in this moment there are far more white people capable of appropriation AT SCALE. It's less an inclination for appropriation than a unique affordance for appropriation. Appropriation by the white community is felt by all communities, and it's incumbent on white people to be respectful of the kind of cultural power they wield. So I guess that's my answer to the annoying "Why do we only care when white people appropriate!" gimmick.
ALSO: None of the above even touches on the racist legacy of our mainstream culture. That's important too, but I think even without considering it, it should still be possible for people to understand why appropriation is real.
"Appropriation"
Yes, it can be a problem. The idea of a melting pot is all well and good, but when one race that already enjoys all the privileges historically granted to them is the one disproportionately benefiting and further elevating itself in society on a broad scale through the use of other cultures' iconography, styles, and crafts... it looks like once again white people climbing the ladder on the backs of colored folks.
Yes, it can be a problem. The idea of a melting pot is all well and good, but when one race that already enjoys all the privileges historically granted to them is the one disproportionately benefiting and further elevating itself in society on a broad scale through the use of other cultures' iconography, styles, and crafts... it looks like once again white people climbing the ladder on the backs of colored folks.
At the end of the day, most white people reading this topic are going to have a vast key different opinion, brought on by their life experiences, than black people. African Americans are quite literally treated like second class citizens in America. Like someone else in the tread said, there is a caste system in the US that no one really talks about.
Subsequently, we are very protective of our unique culture, which has routinely been belittled, destroyed, and criminalized in this country. White people watching other white people take black culture and reappeopriate it see it as "the natural exchange of cukture between two groups". Black people (or at least I do) see it as profiting and taking advantage of a marginalized group that doesn't have to societal clout to advertise & profit off of the same products in a similar fashion as their white counterparts. Just my two cents
Subsequently, we are very protective of our unique culture, which has routinely been belittled, destroyed, and criminalized in this country. White people watching other white people take black culture and reappeopriate it see it as "the natural exchange of cukture between two groups". Black people (or at least I do) see it as profiting and taking advantage of a marginalized group that doesn't have to societal clout to advertise & profit off of the same products in a similar fashion as their white counterparts. Just my two cents
Those 60s white guys were the reason that music blew up. If it wasnt for bands like the stones giving BB and Buddy shows we wouldnt have been graced with their longevity.
Always understand where the music comes from and dont forget it. Dont go around saying Chet Baker is the most important trumpet player for example.
I love 20th century american music, and a whole lotta that is black American music. I understand that and keep it in mind when i perform jazz and blues
What's your take on rappers wearing Hermes, Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Ralph Lauren or Ferragamo?
I understand and agree with Miley Cyrus, Post Malone, and Lil Pump being disrespectful and racist. I agree that the music industry literally stealing music from black artists and giving it to white performers, or not crediting certain performers particularly studio performers, is plagiarism and wrong and that they got away with it through racism.
I just find the idea that appropriation is inherently abuse, or that if one artist takes inspiration from another artist, culture or subculture is inherently bad even if they become more popular than their inspirations. If we're going to judge musical fairness by who broke new ground should be the most popular, nothing that is currently or has ever been popular would be. Part if being an artist is acknowledging that if you're successful you will absolutely be imitated. I think people are mixing up two separate conversations.
The fashion designers, or some marginalized and reviled group of five guys who just happen to share those names
I don't think there's a single culture on this blue planet that hasn't appropriated stuff from another culture hundreds of even thousands of years in the past. You'd be stunned at the amount of things assumed to be native that are actually from another culture and have been so thoroughly assimilated people don't know their foreign origin.
Also since this topic always inevitably goes to that point why does no one ever complain about asian rappers like they do white rappers, when asian rappers have no doubt been even less exposed to black culture than white ones?
Also since this topic always inevitably goes to that point why does no one ever complain about asian rappers like they do white rappers, when asian rappers have no doubt been even less exposed to black culture than white ones?
Paul Mooney really is treasure we all don't hold dear enough.
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Coachella style is super fucked up. Not talking only the native american appropriation but all the traditional Romani wear everyone seems to fuck with. As long as you don't wear it for a job interview or work.
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White people are special. They can pretend to be down but switch back in every other aspect of their life.
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Disney actually doing something
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Whos the dumbass advocating for separation of cultures? You knows you a dumbass right? Sorry I would love to call you racist but that makes you upset so dumbass it is.
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Chadwick Boseman is the most popular actor in China. No one would have thunk it because old wisdom says that only white people in the states can reach a world wide audience. And if you wanna try you gotta be light as fuck. To much melanin and it will activate the fear receptors in white Europeans and Asian folks.
That is today. Now ask yourself how even more fucked up it was 20 years ago.
Hoe! I missed your Hoeing.
And still they manage to give cred where cred is due... Until big papa State says no and you start blaming black people for misleading you. Still there is something coming out of this. Not everyone will run away and the ones to stay are the real ones. Wish yall the best.
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Coachella style is super fucked up. Not talking only the native american appropriation but all the traditional Romani wear everyone seems to fuck with. As long as you don't wear it for a job interview or work.
----
White people are special. They can pretend to be down but switch back in every other aspect of their life.
---
Disney actually doing something
----
Whos the dumbass advocating for separation of cultures? You knows you a dumbass right? Sorry I would love to call you racist but that makes you upset so dumbass it is.
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Chadwick Boseman is the most popular actor in China. No one would have thunk it because old wisdom says that only white people in the states can reach a world wide audience. And if you wanna try you gotta be light as fuck. To much melanin and it will activate the fear receptors in white Europeans and Asian folks.
That is today. Now ask yourself how even more fucked up it was 20 years ago.
Hoe! I missed your Hoeing.
And still they manage to give cred where cred is due... Until big papa State says no and you start blaming black people for misleading you. Still there is something coming out of this. Not everyone will run away and the ones to stay are the real ones. Wish yall the best.
Then you should already understand why your question makes no sense.
As another poster already stated, you and people like you can't understand that the issue isn't incorporating things from other cultures, it's doing so while shitting on those cultures and/or refusing to recognize those culture's contributions. Wearing clothes designed by fashion designers is unrelated.
I see numerous posts in this thread talking about Elvis and him not giving credit to the black artists and the people that influenced him. Where on earth are some of you getting this information from???
At least do some research on him and stop trying to drag Elvis through the mud and make him into something he wasn't.
https://www.axs.com/news/music-legend-fats-domino-turns-88-remembering-elvis-presley-77005
https://books.google.com/books?id=keafptPvxYcC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=snippet&q=actually got my style of singing from&f=false
http://www.elvis.com.au/presley/the...resley-and-racism-according-to-b-b-king.shtml
Elvis had no problem talking about the roots of his music or where he got it from. He credited many of the black musicans that influenced him and was friends with many of them, BB king, Fats Domino, etc.
Also it went the other way as well, there were some great black musicans who took inspiration from things like country music, see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Sounds_in_Country_and_Western_Music
I think it's perfectly fine for any artists to take inspiration from other artists and cultures, just give proper credit and respect to the people that influenced you.
At least do some research on him and stop trying to drag Elvis through the mud and make him into something he wasn't.
https://www.axs.com/news/music-legend-fats-domino-turns-88-remembering-elvis-presley-77005
https://books.google.com/books?id=keafptPvxYcC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=snippet&q=actually got my style of singing from&f=false
http://www.elvis.com.au/presley/the...resley-and-racism-according-to-b-b-king.shtml
Elvis had no problem talking about the roots of his music or where he got it from. He credited many of the black musicans that influenced him and was friends with many of them, BB king, Fats Domino, etc.
Also it went the other way as well, there were some great black musicans who took inspiration from things like country music, see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Sounds_in_Country_and_Western_Music
I think it's perfectly fine for any artists to take inspiration from other artists and cultures, just give proper credit and respect to the people that influenced you.
"Complaining about white rappers" really gives away that you haven't read the thread at all and you're just making a strawman argument to tear down
As far as Asian rappers, the artist formerly known as rich chigga changed that dumbass name with an apology that showed some level of growth, decency and respect.
Yes, I don't know what "shitting on cultures" means in relation to wearing clothes or getting a haircut.
If you understand what appropriation is, from it's inception the atmosphere of this thread is through the looking glass as to what privilege is all about. Shit is blinding even when it's spelled out to you fifty times over. People are always complaining about why black people are always screaming at the top of their lungs "let me be heard, I have a voice", but at the end of the day as a minority you just end up being faced with the question "why do you care?"
Edit: HAPPY BHM!
Edit: HAPPY BHM!
I don't think that's what the essence of exploitative appropriation is. Instead of thinking about who was the originator or source of inspiration, think about who had the means to *take* inspiration and access to popularize/commercialize their inspiration. In the recurring Chuck Berry/Elvis example, it's not so much the problem that Chuck Berry was first, rather that Chuck Berry did not have the opportunity take his music and turn it into the cultural revolution that Elvis ended up "creating." The cultural exchange between Elvis and the people he took inspiration from may well have been very genuine but the fundamental inequality on the basis of race alone (and subsequent inequality in outcome!) is enough to reasonably frustrate people.
I wouldn't say that. Living in arizona I see trendy taco trucks and "Mexican" grills poping up everywhere. White poeple run them, white people profit. Meanwhile, the Mexican population gets nothing but shit around here. With persecution from ICE and displacement from recent rampant gentrification, there's few other options along working as a wage slave at trendy Mexican grill owned by a white person. This was a realization that actually made feel physically ill a couple of months ago.
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Some of the greatest guitarists and drummers are black. Buddy Rich, Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson, Chuck Berry, BB King are up there with the likes of Eric Clapton, George Harrison, David Gilmour, Steve Howe, Frank Zappa. And they all took their influences from blues music since thats what they enjoyed the most. The Allman Brother's founding member is their black drummer, Jaimoe. Traffic (Steve Winwood, etc.) had a black drummer. The history of African Americans in Rock N Roll has never been erased or whitewashed. It's always been there. So many classic rock guitarists will gush about them.
I'm sure this has been posted 50 times in the thread already but there is nothing wrong with being influenced by things. That is natural. Whether it be music, videogames, art, film, etc.
The problem is generally when people refuse to acknowledge what they are appropriating or being influenced by yet are eager to garner all the monetary or historical accolades that come with it.
The problem is generally when people refuse to acknowledge what they are appropriating or being influenced by yet are eager to garner all the monetary or historical accolades that come with it.
They are placeholder names for icons of wealth and displays of opulence. they don't love those things, they just needed a rhythmic sounding name that happens to be a popular brand so they can use them in their songs and maybe model some clothes in a video.
The sad shit is the effect is has on the fans not in on the symbolism and artistry and just try to buy that stuff to look well off.