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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I have not yet seen it, but, again from what I've read, there seems to be a massive issue and alibi where the film paints racism as the ultimate culprit
Racism is the ultimate culprit. And there is no massive issue and alibi. Because it's the truth.

It's what fuelled colonialism and slavery. And was one of the things that created and was the driving force behind Killmonger.
ignoring that the wealthy elite of Wakanda were just as cruel and exploitive as anyone else in their pursuit of accumulation and stability.
That's false. The people of Wakanda aren't exploited at all.
Killmonger is basically using the CIA playbook and is called out as doing such and we all know how great the CIA is. We share Killmonger's anger, but not his desire to kill all of the oppressors and their children.
Pretty much. Killmonger is the physical embodiment of the CIA and by extension American foreign policy.

The other problem is, that Erik just wants replace one empire with his own. I love that they had him say "The sun will never set on the Wakandan empire" which is a paraphrase of "the sun will never set on the British empire"
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
.

It's what fuelled colonialism and slavery

Are you talking about real history or the movies narrative? I can't speak on the latter but the idea that economic exploitation is motivated by racism instead of economic and material conditions is ridiculous.

Slavery is a terrible issue that is independent of race and Capitalism. It existed before Capitalism, was its own mode of production and exploits the weak of all races and ethnicities, perpetrated by the very same types of people on the weak whether they shared a race or not.

Viewing slavery through the narrow lens that is the Wests relatively modern relationship with it does a disservice to the problem as a whole.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
Are you talking about real history or the movies narrative? I can't speak on the latter but the idea that economic exploitation is motivated by racism instead of economic and material conditions is ridiculous.

Slavery is a terrible issue that is independent of race and Capitalism. It existed before Capitalism, was its own mode of production and exploits the weak of all races and ethnicities, perpetrated by the very same types of people on the weak whether they shared a race or not.

Viewing slavery through the narrow lens that is the Wests relatively modern relationship with it does a disservice to the problem as a whole.
I should have been clear, sorry. I was referring to the Atlantic slave trade.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Apparently Michael Harrington was born on 2/24, and nothing else of note in socialist history happened that day.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,550
I can't believe I've missed this thread. I'll sub to it now. I've started to go to my local dsa meetings and work with them.its been good to actually do something politically.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
Someone Said to me that the communist party of Russia (the bigger one), wants today what the chinese state is now.

Thats fucked up, why?
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Someone Said to me that the communist party of Russia (the bigger one), wants today what the chinese state is now.

Thats fucked up, why?

The party under Zyuganov is basically a Russian nationalist social democratic party. With the collapse of the USSR and Russia's inward turn, they had to adopt a patriotic Russian attitude to stay relevant. They're also basically the second most popular party and Putin's controlled opposition. I was reading their policy platform for the last election and thought it was funny how there was no talk of revolution, just higher progressive taxation.

So they see in China a viable path for developing Russia into a big power again.

Speaking of China, I was reading the wiki article for left communism in China and I couldnt help but chuckle at this line:

Whereas Lin had recently sought to curb Red Guard rebellion by interpreting Mao's "Bombard the Headquarters" to mean "bombard a few capitalist roaders" as opposed to "bombard our proletarian headquarters"...
 

CHEEZMO™

Member
Nov 2, 2017
75
Ever grateful I was born early enough to not grow up with ubiquitous video cameras and youtube. The embarrassment potential is so high.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
There's an article of zizek about Black panther, there's good points there, but i haven't found the article in english to share with you guys yet.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
Are you trying to assert that racism wasn't one of the main driving forces behind the Atlantic salve trade ?

No, but that's also not really where the conversation started started. I was responding to a comment I understood to mean "Racism causes colonialism".

It's the opposite. Chauvinism and its various equals are an "alibi", providing the moral and ethical excuse to behavior that precedes it.

One is the motivator, the other is its justification.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Malcolm Harris - The Singular Pursuit of Comrade Bezos: Is Amazon's plan to increase our efficiency a good thing?

Although they attempt to grow in a single direction, planned economies always destroy as well as build. In the 1930s, the Soviet Union compelled the collectivization of kulaks, or prosperous peasants. Small farms were incorporated into a larger collective agricultural system. Depending on who you ask, dekulakization was literal genocide, comparable to the Holocaust, and/or it catapulted what had been a continent-sized expanse of peasants into a modern superpower. Amazon's decimation of small businesses (bookstores in particular) is a similar sort of collectivization, purging small proprietors or driving them onto Amazon platforms. The process is decentralized and executed by the market rather than the state, but don't get confused: Whether or not Bezos is banging on his desk, demanding the extermination of independent booksellers — though he probably is — these are top-down decisions to eliminate particular ways of life.

I missed this one. Interesting comparison, but technological advance is going to prompt societal change and there's nothing wrong with that. This will especially be the case with automation and AI. Rather than get stuck in a mindset that things have to be a certain way, we need to make sure that the power behind these forces is democratically controlled. That's the real danger.
 

J.R. Ewing

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
212
Yoknapatawpha
I don't want to wade in to takes on the race politics of Black Panther because I don't really feel like I'm qualified to talk about that at all, but it was genuinely surprising to me that it was pretty open about white oppression and that it basically said that the CIA had Killmonger fuck up countries as his job.

This portrayal of the CIA has been standard in popular culture since the mid-1970s following Watergate, Vietnam, and the Church hearings. Check out Three Days of the Condor (1975) or the famous Capt. America storyline where he confronts Nixon in the Oval Office (1974).
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Q&A Transcript: James Bennet Talks About His Editorial Page With New York Times Staffers

"For example, take particularly progress and fairness. I mean, I think we are pro-capitalism. The New York Times is in favor of capitalism because it has been the greatest engine of, it's been the greatest anti-poverty program and engine of progress that we've seen. But The New York Times is very concerned with fairness. We've been concerned with the essential equality of human beings from the get-go, and with minority rights and individual rights from the get-go. And in thinking about, for example, the tax bill in this and that, you know, we actually like the idea of reducing corporate rates. We're not for taxation for purposes of taxation, but we are very concerned about fairness and equitable distribution."

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a8ec6d5e4b077f5bfebfac7

Well, no surprises there.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
I mean, I'm not that surprised that the New York Times is not anticapitalist I guess

EDIT: Okay that's reductive, more specifically I've always seen them as, even at their most investigative, more concerned with wrongdoing within the framework of existing structures of power than actually questioning the structures themselves
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
It's also been a week of constant Trump news stories which tends to drown everything else out.
 

Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
It's also been a week of constant Trump news stories which tends to drown everything else out.

And Russia stuff too. Regardless, it's hilarious that US news media is so pre-occupied with interviewing and covering everything from lower social class Trump voters to dapper neo-nazis, but they can't even be bothered to cover the actual worker struggles such as the WV teacher strike.

Again, when US news media talks about 'hearing both sides' and covering all the news, it's just only giving a platform to right-winged and far-right views, while always excluding and erasing any form of leftist views. It's why the NY Times hires conservatives to troll liberals about free speech or climate change, but they won't hire socialists.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
And Russia stuff too. Regardless, it's hilarious that US news media is so pre-occupied with interviewing and covering everything from lower social class Trump voters to dapper neo-nazis, but they can't even be bothered to cover the actual worker struggles such as the WV teacher strike.

Again, when US news media talks about 'hearing both sides' and covering all the news, it's just only giving a platform to right-winged and far-right views, while always excluding and erasing any form of leftist views. It's why the NY Times hires conservatives to troll liberals about free speech or climate change, but they won't hire socialists.
We are worse than Nazis lime.

Seriously i think that's because of red fear, and the editorial line of NYT that defends capitalism (spaghnum link above). Nazi-fascism is a Line of defense of the capitalism, while socialism isn't.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
No, but that's also not really where the conversation started started. I was responding to a comment I understood to mean "Racism causes colonialism".

It's the opposite. Chauvinism and its various equals are an "alibi", providing the moral and ethical excuse to behavior that precedes it.

One is the motivator, the other is its justification.
I see where you're coming from. But i wouldn't say i completely agree.
We are worse than Nazis lime.
Nah. We're far worse.
sazdpavxnlm7udt2ekjv.jpg
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048

Socialism is antithetical to bourgeoisie nationalism and this post on /r/soc is 100% tankie bullshit.

To quote someone else who summed it up better than I:

Struggle on the basis of national conflict demands a total surrender of class conflict. It is the support of one section of the world bourgeoisie in bartering better terms for itself in the world market, and it will inevitably be toilers who suffer and die to liberate the new nation-state, only to be shoved right back in chains the moment the peace accords are signed.

This has been the history of all national-liberation struggles no matter how much they talked Soviet. And the moment the political winds changed, these national liberation regimes switched right from talking Soviet to talking the Washington consensus, trading one bourgeois patron for another.

...

This should not have to be said to communists, but I guess here we go: pre-colonization ideologies are not liberatory. Beyond the futility of turning back the wheel of history, to return to a pre-Lapsarian idyll before the arrival of settlers (as likely as Dear Leader successfully commanding the tides to turn back), the process of colonization was the change in the form of one subjugation to another.

n this matter, I will at least critically defend the utopians. Their mirages are in the future, and unconnected to Arcadian myths, and they might have some critical role to play for the workers' movement. Looking backwards for salvation leads to no where. And before someone jumps in here and accuses me of defending imperialism, the legacy of imperialism is one of despotism, mass murder, haughty cruelty, and White messianic complexes. But it cannot be ended by nationalism, mediated capitalism, or mythologizing your ancient connection to a particular piece of land.
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,314
I had no idea this thread or community existed on ERA.

Nice to meet you, conrads. I identify as Communist, but that's mostly to avoid being confused for a social Democrat or reformist liberal.
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,314
What you identify as is irrelevant. What matters is if you're proletarian or not, reactionary or not.

Communism isn't a lifestyle.
Sure, but there are quite a few who claim to be socialist because they like Bernie Sanders. And being proletarian doesn't ensure you're Communist, as many who ARE proletarian still support capitalism.

Which is why I like the term "Communist", as it provides less wiggle room and hasn't been appropriated by social democrats or reformist capitalists.
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,314
As a novelist, I have an idea for a "Red" series of novels that go from capitalist dystopian/revolution novel, to Marxist society sci-fi novel, to trans-human Marxist space novel.

I'm sure it'll piss off pretty much every faction of Marxist because it won't hew to whatever each faction fervently believes is the "proper" interpretation of Marx. However, it'll be good to have Marxist ideas in the popular culture again in a way that isn't just analysis and dry theory or hagiography.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
As a novelist, I have an idea for a "Red" series of novels that go from capitalist dystopian/revolution novel, to Marxist society sci-fi novel, to trans-human Marxist space novel.

I'm sure it'll piss off pretty much every faction of Marxist because it won't hew to whatever each faction fervently believes is the "proper" interpretation of Marx. However, it'll be good to have Marxist ideas in the popular culture again in a way that isn't just analysis and dry theory or hagiography.

There's China Miéville, perdido street station its the most famous one.
 

curly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42
Hey everyone.

I hope none of you are falling for this Right Wing, Reactionary, Nationalist, quasi-Fascist bullshit being masked as "Socialism".

https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/81q9ne/hello_rsocialism_were_the_founders_of_black/

Zionism, Blood and Soil, Nation States are all bourgeoisie and Right Wing counterrevolutionary ideologies.

Am I missing something here because the person who posted that seems to be explicitly against black nationalism