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zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,345
I'm so fucking stuck in my own dumb head with this current book that I dunno how things will go. Stressing over character voice and about a thousand other things I don't think I've ever really stressed about before.

Like, writing should get easier as you go, but the more you know about it the harder it becomes. I don't think any book will ever be as fun or easy to write as my first.
and that is why my first book will merely be around 2.5 million words >.>

in seriousness I do feel like things are getting easier to do as I learn more, but I am continuing the same story with each book so I have less to worry about in establishing characters and can just focus on having a fun story arc.... as I still constantly set up stuff in the future but w/e I don't have to worry about any writers block for a while since I have the next 3 books planned out and am working on an unknown numbered future book in set up right now lol.

I've also been figuring out what works for me. what stuff I can easily set up in advance and what I need to wait until I get closer to using it to set it up.

but eh... my story is likely horrible and poorly written.
accepting nothing I do will ever be any good helps to not stress about it, I just can't actively think about the fact that all my effort is pointless :P
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,290
Minnesota
and that is why my first book will merely be around 2.5 million words >.>

in seriousness I do feel like things are getting easier to do as I learn more, but I am continuing the same story with each book so I have less to worry about in establishing characters and can just focus on having a fun story arc.... as I still constantly set up stuff in the future but w/e I don't have to worry about any writers block for a while since I have the next 3 books planned out and am working on an unknown numbered future book in set up right now lol.

I've also been figuring out what works for me. what stuff I can easily set up in advance and what I need to wait until I get closer to using it to set it up.

but eh... my story is likely horrible and poorly written.
accepting nothing I do will ever be any good helps to not stress about it, I just can't actively think about the fact that all my effort is pointless :P
The problem is, my books only wind up "goodish" after five or six rounds of editing, so I'm approaching this one going "it's going to suck until I edit it five times" but also going "man these are shitty sentences why am I bothering?" knowing full well that they won't be good sentences until next year.

Which is another something I can't not think about anymore: how long this all fucking takes. I'm embarking on a year and a half project because the last three took that long. That's...daunting and stressful and man do i want a beer but I have to go to bed.
 

Unicorn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,527
Man, after getting the nanowrimo goal I haven't really returned to start editing. I am at a loss when it comes to revision. I've done short-form such as poetry and short story revision, but tackling 100 pages of things to reorganize, rewrite, and restructure is crushing me. it's over 2 months into the new year and I've got nothing.

Maybe getting note cards and just arranging them as scenes or plot points and getting that organized and out of the way will help me? I need to get the whole "arc" or narrative pinned down, really.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,345
The problem is, my books only wind up "goodish" after five or six rounds of editing, so I'm approaching this one going "it's going to suck until I edit it five times" but also going "man these are shitty sentences why am I bothering?" knowing full well that they won't be good sentences until next year.

Which is another something I can't not think about anymore: how long this all fucking takes. I'm embarking on a year and a half project because the last three took that long. That's...daunting and stressful and man do i want a beer but I have to go to bed.
I have a single character (Koko) that I tend to spend a good amount of time on to give her good lines while I am writing my draft to remind myself that I can do decent lines when I try. that way I at least have a little good.

as for the how long it takes....

I have been writing seriously for 2 years now, super seriously for 6 months.
I am about 20% done with my rough draft of my story.... meaning that my project will take about another 8 years to finish.
at that point I will then have to properly edit... so I can release anything... which will likely take another 10 years unless my first book takes off well enough I can hire people to help me.

not to mention all the other things that could make time go longer... I mean I already have like 7 plot points that I could spin off into 25-50k word short stories no problems....

so my time frame on my project looks to take me up to around my 50th birthday... which will be in 18 years lol.
so when you are feeling that it's daunting just remember... it could be 18 years :P

(it would be nice if I could get it done in 16 years though, that way I could finish my story a mere 30 years after I started it lol)

Man, after getting the nanowrimo goal I haven't really returned to start editing. I am at a loss when it comes to revision. I've done short-form such as poetry and short story revision, but tackling 100 pages of things to reorganize, rewrite, and restructure is crushing me. it's over 2 months into the new year and I've got nothing.

Maybe getting note cards and just arranging them as scenes or plot points and getting that organized and out of the way will help me? I need to get the whole "arc" or narrative pinned down, really.

I have no clue if it will help you, but I have found reading my chapters and making a short summery about what is going on helped me organize my thoughts quite a bit. I try to boil it down to just the important information, and from there I can see if some things flow better if I move information around, and I also know what I need to keep.

I'll PM you an example of what I am talking about... as I should avoid leaving my stuff in a public place in general :P
 
Last edited:
Dec 14, 2017
1,314
Is anyone here open to tips? I mean craft tips. I sent an email to my local critique group about some of the things I'd leaned from online critique at Scribophile. They were all things I wish I'd have known earlier but only learned through extensive critique.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Working on editing my screenplay for the billionth time before I submit it on Wednesday. I was blazing through it damn fast because I've already cleaned it up so much, then I came across one of my biggest pet peeves in movies and TV shows---one character earlier warned someone that they can't do X, because this bad guy would "tear her soul to shreds." Then 20 pages later, this bad guy uses the exact same words to someone else, warning that he will "tear her souls to shreds." It made me cringe, and I spent about 20 minutes drinking coffee, staring at my lines, trying to find a different way to describe this specific thing. Don't you love when you spend ages trying to find the right words in one tiny little area?

I had this same issue recently, trying to get back into a routine. I work a lot of hours, and I'm always so tired when I get home from work. I really had to force myself to write after work. 30 minutes, no matter what. Even if it is garbage. This was recent, but it feels like it is paying off. I also had a game that distracted me a lot, League of Legends, so I had my fiance change my password and email for my account in order to lock me out. She isn't allowed to let me back in until I finish my next edit of my script. It is sad how well this is working for motivation. lol
God I wish i could just lock myself out of my games, but im surrounded on all sides and my backlog taunts me when I'm writing.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,345
Is anyone here open to tips? I mean craft tips. I sent an email to my local critique group about some of the things I'd leaned from online critique at Scribophile. They were all things I wish I'd have known earlier but only learned through extensive critique.
I mean I am always open to tips.
the more I can absorb right now, the less I have to edit later :P

it's also why I try to help where I can publicly so that others can call me out if I have the wrong idea somewhere lol
 
Katana’s general writing tips
Dec 14, 2017
1,314
I mean I am always open to tips.
the more I can absorb right now, the less I have to edit later :P

it's also why I try to help where I can publicly so that others can call me out if I have the wrong idea somewhere lol
Ok, here goes!

I sent this as an email for my local critique group early on. I'd already been in an online critique community and figured I could share some of the things I learned. I wanted to post it here to see if you agree or disagree with any of it and so that YOU could share YOUR craft advice too. Alright, everything beneath this is from the email:

I thought I'd just share some things I've learned in critique. Take or leave as it suits you.

1. Prologues: Don't. If you need a prologue, it means you don't know how to fold world-building into your writing. There are no good prologues. You're asking your reader to begin your story twice. The best you can hope for is a tolerable prologue. Tolerable means that you sit through it in order to get to the actual story. Please don't ask your readers to do this. So why do so many beginning writers write prologues? It's cheap, easy world-building. It's a place to info-dump.

2. Start of story: Don't start your story any sooner than is absolutely necessary for your reader to understand. What that means is that if the beginning of your story is really backstory, don't start there. Don't start with world building. Epic Fantasy folks have a little bit of leeway here, but only a little. Why do we start our stories too early? Because it's shit we, as authors, need to know about our characters. The reader doesn't need to know these things, except in passing or as a brief recap. It'll be in your first draft because it might need to be for YOU to understand your characters. Take it out and start at the latest possible moment in order to make your story comprehensible to your reader. Use beta readers to determine whether you've started too soon. Beta readers can't be friends or family—they're not reliable.

3. Don't use 'was-verbing' unless it's truly contemporaneous to what's happening. Examples of proper use of 'was-verbing': "He was rifling through her purse when she walked into the room." That's reasonable because it's better than "He rifled through her purse as she walked into the room". He was doing it before she entered the scene and you're describing that he's also currently doing it. This is especially true if, in this instance, your POV is hers and not his. Why do we so often write 'was-verbing'? Because we're writing the story as we see it and it's the most natural way to write it. There's gonna be a lot of 'was-verbing' in your first drafts. You have to go back in and change 'was standing' to 'stood'. It's easier for the reader. Also, every incidence of 'was-verbing' changes a unique verb into a repetitive 'was' version simply by the inclusion of 'was'. It makes all the verbs sound the same. Killing it auto-magically makes your writing less repetitive.

4. POV changes must be earned. What does that mean? It means don't start your second chapter with a POV change. The exception is romance, where a 'her POV', 'his POV' is common and quite natural. It doesn't work for epic fantasy. We need to become attached to your character before your POV changes. A great time to change POV is on a cliff-hanger because, although the reader doesn't want to change POV, they'll tolerate it to find out what happens to the character they've now become attached to. While they're suffering the POV change, you MUST strive to make the next character as compelling as your first. If you do it right, the reader will be thrilled every time you change POV after the first few.

5. No adverbs in dialogue tags. '"What do you mean?" she asked bashfully.' We should read 'bashful' in the dialogue and what has preceded it. If we can't, you need to sharpen your dialogue. Most often I see this when the author doesn't trust the reader to get it, so they hit them over the head in the dialogue tag. What I mean is that 'bashful' is in the dialogue or the action tag, but the writer doesn't trust the reader to 'get it'. You can't cure idiocy. Don't even try. If it's there, the reader hears it. Exceptions include: Slowly, quickly, etc., because there you're actually showing how the dialogue should read. Some people will still bash you for using it, but I think that it's acceptable. That's me, not a golden rule. Another exception: Always use an adverb when the alternative will be clunky. What I mean is that I've never seen a 'show' version of 'gingerly' that wasn't more awkward than the word 'gingerly'.

6. Structure notes: The 'inciting incident' should happen within the first 25% of your novel. The inciting incident is the thing that means that life can't go on as normal. The man finds his wife in bed with someone else, the portal to the next dimension appears, the character comes across an orphan and has to re-think how he approaches his life. This is a lot more vague in 'literary fiction', which means you have to be a hell of a lot better writer to pull it off.

7. Try to reduce filtering. We talked about this briefly in group, but what this means is that you want to limit your use of 'heard', 'saw', etc. We assume the viewpoint is from the POV indicated, but when you draw attention to it, it has the bizarre effect of distancing the reader. I used the example: "She heard a shot from the other side of the room." The reader assumes it's what the POV character heard, so state it as, "A shot rang out from across the room." This allows the reader to identify with the character instead of coming to the realization that the character is not THEM. The exception here is that sometimes you need to let the reader know that it's something specific to the character. "She'd heard the news, and it wasn't pretty." (Note to critique readers: You're gonna find a lot of this in my work because I have a lot of 'internal' stuff for an action genre. Point it out, because I can't always see it and it's like sleeping with a stripper…you'll never get the glitter out of the sheets. It's just everywhere for some of us and we need to have it pointed out.)

8. Adverbs. You've heard adverbs are bad, right? But why are they bad? They're only bad because they serve to shore up a weak verb. "Walked slowly" is "crept". "Listened attentively" is better described by showing the facial expression and movements of the character. If you keep this in mind, you'll still use adverbs occasionally (see what I did there?), but you won't overuse them and you won't use them for the wrong reason. You can break any rule you want if you know WHY the rule exists and address it.

9. Take a drill and lobotomize the part of your brain that has learned the word 'really'. Really. You almost never need it. Exceptions include dialogue, because people honestly talk that way. While you're drilling into your grey matter, remove the word 'almost', at least for fiction except for dialogue. You can do anything you want in dialogue because people speak like imbeciles. This is especially true if they're talking to someone to whom they are attracted.

10. Dialogue should convey verisimilitude, but it should skip the shit the reader doesn't want to hear. This includes 'um' unless you need it to emphasize a pause. PLEASE LISTEN CLOSELY TO THIS: Skip 'dialogue preamble' like 'Well,'. or 'Yes,'. Yup, we use it when we speak, but you can cut it and no one will miss it and it'll make your dialogue sing. ALSO THIS: People do NOT regularly use a person's name when they speak because they're literally talking to the person they're addressing. Use names as emphasis. Think of them as chili peppers—too much and it's inedible.

11. Dialogue again: Never have your characters discuss shit they already know. Try not to have them think about it either. This makes it hard to build your world, but you need to find a way around it. Personally, I use 'naive' characters so that explaining makes sense. ****** is using tweens, so that should work, though they already know a lot. I don't know enough about ****'s character because I didn't get that far in the reading. I know NOTHING of********'s characters because she didn't read from her work.

12. Structure again, because it was mentioned: You MAY have a natural instinct for structure. It may be your strength and it's why you see authors like King advise against outlines or clear structure goals. The thing is, you can't teach that which comes naturally to you—you do it automatically, so many authors avoid talking about structure because it DOES naturally come to them. Use critique and betas to find out whether you really can 'pants' it or not. Many can, but some writers absolutely can't find a plot with a flashlight and decoder ring. If that's you, you need to know as early as possible so that you can plan more. This doesn't make you a worse writer. The only bad writers are writers who don't know what they're bad at and don't come up with systems to help them.

13. Equivocation: The word 'seem' should rarely appear in your work. You're writing from the POV of your character and you need to get it across, even if it's wrong. A character can be mistaken (and it's fun to use that when you can), but write it as though it's definitively what's happening. Don't use "a little". It's vague as a quantity and it equivocates when, almost always, such equivocation is both unnecessary and detrimental to your narrative.

14. Adjectives, too many. Not every noun needs an adjective. I see it a lot in early work and I STILL do it a lot and have to pull it out. What's IMPORTANT to emphasize? Emphasize that. You saw in my own work that I used 'vestigial tub'. I've been hammered for it because the tub isn't important enough for a ten dollar adjective.

15. THIS BLEW MY MIND: You can skip 'transportation'. Look at movies. You don't need to show them crossing a street, you can simply place them on the other side and trust that the reader knows how they got there. My third chapter takes a direct cut to a bar with a VERY brief description of why my MC is there now and how it happened. One reader has suggested that I show the details. I want to kill this reader because it's bad advice. She suggested it because she doesn't know the characters very well yet and wanted 'flavor'. The flavor comes later and in the midst of things. Salt is good IN something, but by itself…I dunno, I guess it kills leaches. It isn't good by itself.

16. MOAR STRUCTURE!! The 'turning point' should happen by the middle of your novel. The 'turning point' comes when the character has tried the easy way out and it hasn't worked. They accept that they need to change something fundamental. Usually, they hate it. They hate it for the same reason you hate it when your spouse moves your shoes—it takes extra effort and it's awkward and kind of a pain in the ass. Here's the thing about the turning point—from here on out, your character is proactively doing shit, not just reacting to the shit done to her. If you wait too long for this change to happen, people will clobber you with 'passive MC' slurs. Yes, you can kill them, but then you have to change your structure because they're right.

17. Don't give your readers what they want. Is there a misunderstanding in a relationship? Drag it out. Have them be interrupted before anyone can apologize. Giving your characters or your readers what they want kills momentum. If you DO give it to them, take it back in a painful way. My MC gets to have her love for a side character requited briefly before it's yanked away. Then you get both the joy of the kiss and the pain of the separation. Let your reader taste victory early on if you're a bastard like me, but there is no victory of any kind till the end of the novel (and there should be a turd on the wedding cake if you want to turn it into a series).

18. "Things happen" isn't a plot. There needs to be increasing urgency and tension. Exception: "Literary Fiction". However, if you're writing lit, every sentence better give the reader an orgasm, because anything short of that will fail in an embarrassing way.

19. Addendum to number 18: You can't go balls to the wall all the time. Sometimes you DO have to let the reader catch their breath or even give them something small so that you're not writing Life Sucks, Why Don't You Kill Yourself Already, a Novel.

20. You probably already know most of what I've said here. I didn't and so that's why I'm writing this. It's not because I know things. I don't know anything. It's depressing. I'm still very much in the conscious incompetence stage of writing. It's just that it's (barely) better than unconscious incompetence. It's more painful than unconscious incompetence, too. Fuck. I need a beer.
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
That's a pretty good/comprehensive list!
I'd add the following:

- Keep an eye on your sentence lengths and rhythms. Having them all short, or all long, or all with a single comma creates repetitive prose that will lose the reader's attention. Try to break it up every few lines.
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,314
That's a pretty good/comprehensive list!
I'd add the following:

- Keep an eye on your sentence lengths and rhythms. Having them all short, or all long, or all with a single comma creates repetitive prose that will lose the reader's attention. Try to break it up every few lines.
Yes! And I keep forgetting to add this one, so consider it...

21. Don't start all your sentences with a noun or proper noun or pronoun+is/was. "There was a purple dinosaur next to the bent refrigerator. It was at the end of the room. There were three cats playing poker who remained undisturbed. Cats are natural poker players."
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,345
Given the list I have a feeling that my point of view stuff would drive you crazy... mostly because I have no definitive main character anymore and thus will just follow all of them at once, or if they split up just focus on who ever is important at the time.

granted I am writing a really long story and for the first book it only followed the POV of a single character, so I likely "earned" the right to do it, since the characters are set up well before they start becoming a focus. but who knows, I might just be garbage at such stuff :P

I uh... outright don't agree with
17. Don't give your readers what they want. Is there a misunderstanding in a relationship? Drag it out. Have them be interrupted before anyone can apologize. Giving your characters or your readers what they want kills momentum. If you DO give it to them, take it back in a painful way. My MC gets to have her love for a side character requited briefly before it's yanked away. Then you get both the joy of the kiss and the pain of the separation. Let your reader taste victory early on if you're a bastard like me, but there is no victory of any kind till the end of the novel (and there should be a turd on the wedding cake if you want to turn it into a series).

though lol.

I understand the idea of not giving readers what they want... but will they won't they crap is just pure garbage to me. Don't drag out the couple getting together instead have interesting plot that they have to tackle together.

I mean I get such a mindset is good for keeping a reader engaged and wanting more, but personally I can't stand all the payoff being at the end and will stop following something well before I reach the end if it's designed with that mindset.

overall plenty of good info there, some of which I don't fully agree with... but in general I don't like stuff that drags out things. I like progress to keep being made.
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
Given the list I have a feeling that my point of view stuff would drive you crazy... mostly because I have no definitive main character anymore and thus will just follow all of them at once, or if they split up just focus on who ever is important at the time.
That's just omniscient POV - perfectly doable (though maybe a bit tricker for newer writers) and really effective when it works.
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
The important question is...what kind of pie?

It was chicken tikka pie made lovingly by my mother, it was yummy.

I feel guilty when I don't do any writing for the day which is why I had to put down games like MH World in order to get writing done. Also told myself not to buy any games for the next few months just to focus. Gonna be missing Kirby :/

Missing Kirby, sounds rough. I would never miss Kirby as he's too freaking adorable.


Great tips, though rule 15 will be interesting for me as my story is a road trip.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,345
That's just omniscient POV - perfectly doable (though maybe a bit tricker for newer writers) and really effective when it works.
ah... I am bad when it comes to terms of stuff :P

one of my goals though is for everyone in my main cast to be quite useful and matter in any given event. That no single person repeatedly saves the day, and because of this I work towards all of them having important story information going on so if I was to just focus from one perspective it would be weird.

I in fact started that way, where I only did things from book one's main character's views.... but it meant he had to be repeatedly present in later stuff, and he didn't really add to those scenes, so I shifted away from his focus into a more general focus to make it read far better.

I'm still learning and evolving in general though :P
 
Oct 26, 2017
876
I slapped another 700-800 words on the page last night. Not making swift progress like I did last year, that's for sure.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,366
Denver, CO
Good grief, writing a query letter is a motherfucker. Somehow writing 400 pages was no problem and yet distilling it into two paragraphs is crazy mental gymnastics I wasn't prepared for.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,345
Good grief, writing a query letter is a motherfucker. Somehow writing 400 pages was no problem and yet distilling it into two paragraphs is crazy mental gymnastics I wasn't prepared for.
yeah... if I ever do one of those it will be an issue for me. They aren't designed for stories planned for multiple books, and while I can boil down the plot of book 1 to a two paragraph thing it would have to be done without even touching any of the major plot points set up for later books.

heck I can do the main plot of book 1 in a sentence "A guy gets transported to another world with his girlfriend and has to save her after she is kidnapped by the local lord."

in my partial defense to the plot idea, I started this 14 years ago, and I don't think it plays out remotely like you are thinking of if you watch any transported to another world animes :P I also have way more going for the story than just that idea. In fact, I would go far enough to say while that is his motivation, the story really isn't about that at all lol.
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,290
Minnesota
Good grief, writing a query letter is a motherfucker. Somehow writing 400 pages was no problem and yet distilling it into two paragraphs is crazy mental gymnastics I wasn't prepared for.
If you haven't taken a trip over to queryshark, I suggest you do so. Great resource.

I also suggest writing more than one, which is annoying but sometimes the second one is better than the first.

They're horrible though. I've had to do three now.
 

Valdfellgar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
464
Massachusetts
Well, still no bites on my Query, trying to revise it again and see if I can craft something more enticing (though my Wife speculates my writing is just niche). I'm trying to make the Query shorter, like someone suggested back on Neogaf. Got it down from 360ish to 260ish, but I'm weary of trimming further, I read that if you trade too many specifics for vague descriptions it's even harder to hook agents.

For comparison in case anyone is curious. Feedback is welcome but I know I don't interact regularly enough.:
It has often been assumed mankind will advance endlessly, that our technological and social progression was boundless. In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age, a time where the world united and prosperity would extend to all. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, we found ourselves condemned to an endless era of stagnation.

Now, three hundred years later, an ambitious man, hoping to bring the world back on a path to prosperity, is trapped in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer is a virtual nobody living in Valria City and all his efforts to make something of himself have been met with resounding failure. Yet Kyle finds himself targeted by a secret organization: Resurrection.

Under the command of a hardened, seemingly unkillable, military commander: Von Harcove, they seek to bring mankind back on the path to perfection and Kyle is the key.

But their efforts to capture Kyle are routed by Von's ex-colleague, turned vengeful enemy: Carlos Gira and his pseudo-military organization: Death Eternal. He kidnaps Kyle, believing that if Von is allowed to accomplish his task, it'll tear the very foundation of the world apart.

Desperately trying to save Kyle is his best friend Leon S. Verradi, spurred on by the drive and passion of Kyle's fiancé: Isabelle Reviola. But as the two dig deep to find their friend and loved one, they only become caught up in the violent struggle for control of man's destiny.

But as the players take the field, and the violence escalates, threatening to swallow Valria City in a torrent of death and destruction: One question lingers on Kyle's mind: How could he, a failure and a nobody, possibly be the key to mankind's long lost Golden Age?

Death Eternal, a sci-fi/thriller, is complete at 130,000 words. It is the first in a six part series. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.

It has often been assumed mankind will advance endlessly, that our technological and social progression was boundless. In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, man was condemned to an endless era of stagnation.

Three hundred years later, an ambitious man, hoping to bring the world back on a path to prosperity, is a mere McKing employee toiling in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer knows he can do more, but all his efforts to advance in society have been met with resounding failure.

As the frustration of his situation mounts Kyle becomes targeted by a secret organization: Resurrection. Under the command of a hardened, seemingly unkillable, military commander: Von Harcove, they seek to bring mankind back on the path to perfection and Kyle is their key.

But efforts to secure Kyle are routed by Von's ex-colleague, turned vengeful enemy: Carlos Gira and his own pseudo-military organization: Death Eternal. He kidnaps Kyle, believing that if Von is allowed to accomplish his task, it'll tear apart the foundation of life as we know it.

As Kyle struggles against these two warring groups, and his own fiance and best friend rush to save him, one question lingers on Kyle's mind: How could he, a failure and a nobody, possibly be the key to mankind's long lost Golden Age?

Death Eternal, a sci-fi/thriller, is complete at 130,000 words. It is the first in a six part series. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.

Good grief, writing a query letter is a motherfucker. Somehow writing 400 pages was no problem and yet distilling it into two paragraphs is crazy mental gymnastics I wasn't prepared for.

It's easily the worst part of the process. I always feel like I'm doing my 130,000 words of work dirty trying to squeeze it down into an enticing 200-400 words.
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
Well, still no bites on my Query, trying to revise it again and see if I can craft something more enticing (though my Wife speculates my writing is just niche). I'm trying to make the Query shorter, like someone suggested back on Neogaf. Got it down from 360ish to 260ish, but I'm weary of trimming further, I read that if you trade too many specifics for vague descriptions it's even harder to hook agents.

For comparison in case anyone is curious. Feedback is welcome but I know I don't interact regularly enough.:
It has often been assumed mankind will advance endlessly, that our technological and social progression was boundless. In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age, a time where the world united and prosperity would extend to all. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, we found ourselves condemned to an endless era of stagnation.

Now, three hundred years later, an ambitious man, hoping to bring the world back on a path to prosperity, is trapped in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer is a virtual nobody living in Valria City and all his efforts to make something of himself have been met with resounding failure. Yet Kyle finds himself targeted by a secret organization: Resurrection.

Under the command of a hardened, seemingly unkillable, military commander: Von Harcove, they seek to bring mankind back on the path to perfection and Kyle is the key.

But their efforts to capture Kyle are routed by Von's ex-colleague, turned vengeful enemy: Carlos Gira and his pseudo-military organization: Death Eternal. He kidnaps Kyle, believing that if Von is allowed to accomplish his task, it'll tear the very foundation of the world apart.

Desperately trying to save Kyle is his best friend Leon S. Verradi, spurred on by the drive and passion of Kyle's fiancé: Isabelle Reviola. But as the two dig deep to find their friend and loved one, they only become caught up in the violent struggle for control of man's destiny.

But as the players take the field, and the violence escalates, threatening to swallow Valria City in a torrent of death and destruction: One question lingers on Kyle's mind: How could he, a failure and a nobody, possibly be the key to mankind's long lost Golden Age?

Death Eternal, a sci-fi/thriller, is complete at 130,000 words. It is the first in a six part series. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.

It has often been assumed mankind will advance endlessly, that our technological and social progression was boundless. In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, man was condemned to an endless era of stagnation.

Three hundred years later, an ambitious man, hoping to bring the world back on a path to prosperity, is a mere McKing employee toiling in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer knows he can do more, but all his efforts to advance in society have been met with resounding failure.

As the frustration of his situation mounts Kyle becomes targeted by a secret organization: Resurrection. Under the command of a hardened, seemingly unkillable, military commander: Von Harcove, they seek to bring mankind back on the path to perfection and Kyle is their key.

But efforts to secure Kyle are routed by Von's ex-colleague, turned vengeful enemy: Carlos Gira and his own pseudo-military organization: Death Eternal. He kidnaps Kyle, believing that if Von is allowed to accomplish his task, it'll tear apart the foundation of life as we know it.

As Kyle struggles against these two warring groups, and his own fiance and best friend rush to save him, one question lingers on Kyle's mind: How could he, a failure and a nobody, possibly be the key to mankind's long lost Golden Age?

Death Eternal, a sci-fi/thriller, is complete at 130,000 words. It is the first in a six part series. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.



It's easily the worst part of the process. I always feel like I'm doing my 130,000 words of work dirty trying to squeeze it down into an enticing 200-400 words.

Your first paragraph-and-a-half is pretty dry. I'd avoid the detached point of view ('it has often been...') and either address the reader/agent directly, or introduce the character earlier, if you can.
Maybe something like: 'In the 24th century, Kyle Tiefer is full of ambitions to restore mankind's lost Golden Age, but finds himself stuck toiling in obscurity at his local McKing's."
 

Valdfellgar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
464
Massachusetts
Your first paragraph-and-a-half is pretty dry. I'd avoid the detached point of view ('it has often been...') and either address the reader/agent directly, or introduce the character earlier, if you can.
Maybe something like: 'In the 24th century, Kyle Tiefer is full of ambitions to restore mankind's lost Golden Age, but finds himself stuck toiling in obscurity at his local McKing's."

Thanks for the feedback:

Something like this I guess? "In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, man was condemned to an endless era of stagnation. Three hundred years later, Kyle Tiefer, a man filled with the ambition to restore man's lost Golden Age, is stuck as a mere McKing employee, toiling in obscurity. Kyle knows he can do more, but all his efforts to advance in society have been met with resounding failure."
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
Thanks for the feedback:

Something like this I guess? "In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, man was condemned to an endless era of stagnation. Three hundred years later, Kyle Tiefer, a man filled with the ambition to restore man's lost Golden Age, is stuck as a mere McKing employee, toiling in obscurity. Kyle knows he can do more, but all his efforts to advance in society have been met with resounding failure."
That's definitely better! Though I'd try to avoid repeating 'Golden Age' so close together.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,978
Good grief, writing a query letter is a motherfucker. Somehow writing 400 pages was no problem and yet distilling it into two paragraphs is crazy mental gymnastics I wasn't prepared for.

As I said earlier, YEAAAAAAAAAAH... I found it harder to write the query than I did to write the damn book.
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,314
As I said earlier, YEAAAAAAAAAAH... I found it harder to write the query than I did to write the damn book.

I don't need to write a query, but I will need to learn to write a blurb. Oddly, I'm pretty good at helping others write theirs, but I'm in "Wut R Werds" mode when I try to write mine.

I wish I could easily share my covers. I lucked out and found an amazing cover artist.

Given the list I have a feeling that my point of view stuff would drive you crazy... mostly because I have no definitive main character anymore and thus will just follow all of them at once, or if they split up just focus on who ever is important at the time.

granted I am writing a really long story and for the first book it only followed the POV of a single character, so I likely "earned" the right to do it, since the characters are set up well before they start becoming a focus. but who knows, I might just be garbage at such stuff :P

I uh... outright don't agree with
17. Don't give your readers what they want. Is there a misunderstanding in a relationship? Drag it out. Have them be interrupted before anyone can apologize. Giving your characters or your readers what they want kills momentum. If you DO give it to them, take it back in a painful way. My MC gets to have her love for a side character requited briefly before it's yanked away. Then you get both the joy of the kiss and the pain of the separation. Let your reader taste victory early on if you're a bastard like me, but there is no victory of any kind till the end of the novel (and there should be a turd on the wedding cake if you want to turn it into a series).

though lol.

I understand the idea of not giving readers what they want... but will they won't they crap is just pure garbage to me. Don't drag out the couple getting together instead have interesting plot that they have to tackle together.

I mean I get such a mindset is good for keeping a reader engaged and wanting more, but personally I can't stand all the payoff being at the end and will stop following something well before I reach the end if it's designed with that mindset.

overall plenty of good info there, some of which I don't fully agree with... but in general I don't like stuff that drags out things. I like progress to keep being made.
I'm not just talking about romantic stuff, I'm talking about increasing complications and tightening dramatic tension.
 
Nov 2, 2017
4,490
Pro-tip:don't overthink. The best ideas and thoughts most often happen organically during free flowing consciousness.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,345
I'm not just talking about romantic stuff, I'm talking about increasing complications and tightening dramatic tension.
even beyond romance if the reader never gets what they want until the end that is just bad writing to me.
there should be multiple conflicts of interest with various stages of resolution across the story to continue feeling like there is progress.
it shouldn't just be saved for the end. (obviously I am talking about novels not short stories here) Of course you have to balance it well as well, if you have to much going on the story will either balloon in length or not be satisfying as you resolve things.

constantly dragging it out, constantly giving a bit then taking it away... that isn't interesting that is just cheap grabs for attention to me. It's far better if a reader wants to continue reading to continue experiencing your story rather than because they are chasing a carrot on a stick :/ Don't get me wrong, I chase plenty of carrots when it comes to TV shows, but in general I drop them well before I get the carrot. It just ends up being tiresome and I don't want to watch any more TV shows from the same creators as I know they will likely just try to get me to chase a carrot again. If you surround the carrot with enough fun other stuff then perhaps I will keep watching, but still.

will they won't they is just the easiest example of this because it's done to death and is almost always terrible (usually it's only any good as a secondary plot during something bigger, not as the main plot). Not to say that it can't be a useful tool to sell something, as clearly it's a common tool in a lot of stories, but I don't consider it good writing.

Even with that being said I don't fully disagree with what is being said in that one, just the way it's being said. If it was worded instead something along the lines of "Don't rush resolving your conflicts." or something like that it would be better to me. The main idea behind your 17 would likely be that fact that once you resolve a major conflict you have to either end the story or move onto another one, which stops your momentum. Even if you have multiple conflicts I understand that it would take time to go from one resolution to another, but I will almost always prefer a story where you save a princess and then that princess has to go save her kingdom, over one that merely has someone saving a princess.

The idea of never giving the reader what they want is just silly to me as unless the reader is a masochist they will likely just get fed up well before you reach the end.

Also I will argue if it feels like I am still missing the point, that would just be another reason to reword that one :P

Pro-tip:don't overthink. The best ideas and thoughts most often happen organically during free flowing consciousness.
this is really only true for select people :P
 

ODD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,223
So I have this friend who's a physicist and he likes to make games on his spare time, but he says that he isn't very good with making up stories, so he asked me to help him. I've never written a script before, but I'm facing this challenge.

Ok, here goes!

I sent this as an email for my local critique group early on. I'd already been in an online critique community and figured I could share some of the things I learned. I wanted to post it here to see if you agree or disagree with any of it and so that YOU could share YOUR craft advice too. Alright, everything beneath this is from the email:

I thought I'd just share some things I've learned in critique. Take or leave as it suits you.

1. Prologues: Don't. If you need a prologue, it means you don't know how to fold world-building into your writing. There are no good prologues. You're asking your reader to begin your story twice. The best you can hope for is a tolerable prologue. Tolerable means that you sit through it in order to get to the actual story. Please don't ask your readers to do this. So why do so many beginning writers write prologues? It's cheap, easy world-building. It's a place to info-dump.

2. Start of story: Don't start your story any sooner than is absolutely necessary for your reader to understand. What that means is that if the beginning of your story is really backstory, don't start there. Don't start with world building. Epic Fantasy folks have a little bit of leeway here, but only a little. Why do we start our stories too early? Because it's shit we, as authors, need to know about our characters. The reader doesn't need to know these things, except in passing or as a brief recap. It'll be in your first draft because it might need to be for YOU to understand your characters. Take it out and start at the latest possible moment in order to make your story comprehensible to your reader. Use beta readers to determine whether you've started too soon. Beta readers can't be friends or family—they're not reliable.

3. Don't use 'was-verbing' unless it's truly contemporaneous to what's happening. Examples of proper use of 'was-verbing': "He was rifling through her purse when she walked into the room." That's reasonable because it's better than "He rifled through her purse as she walked into the room". He was doing it before she entered the scene and you're describing that he's also currently doing it. This is especially true if, in this instance, your POV is hers and not his. Why do we so often write 'was-verbing'? Because we're writing the story as we see it and it's the most natural way to write it. There's gonna be a lot of 'was-verbing' in your first drafts. You have to go back in and change 'was standing' to 'stood'. It's easier for the reader. Also, every incidence of 'was-verbing' changes a unique verb into a repetitive 'was' version simply by the inclusion of 'was'. It makes all the verbs sound the same. Killing it auto-magically makes your writing less repetitive.

4. POV changes must be earned. What does that mean? It means don't start your second chapter with a POV change. The exception is romance, where a 'her POV', 'his POV' is common and quite natural. It doesn't work for epic fantasy. We need to become attached to your character before your POV changes. A great time to change POV is on a cliff-hanger because, although the reader doesn't want to change POV, they'll tolerate it to find out what happens to the character they've now become attached to. While they're suffering the POV change, you MUST strive to make the next character as compelling as your first. If you do it right, the reader will be thrilled every time you change POV after the first few.

5. No adverbs in dialogue tags. '"What do you mean?" she asked bashfully.' We should read 'bashful' in the dialogue and what has preceded it. If we can't, you need to sharpen your dialogue. Most often I see this when the author doesn't trust the reader to get it, so they hit them over the head in the dialogue tag. What I mean is that 'bashful' is in the dialogue or the action tag, but the writer doesn't trust the reader to 'get it'. You can't cure idiocy. Don't even try. If it's there, the reader hears it. Exceptions include: Slowly, quickly, etc., because there you're actually showing how the dialogue should read. Some people will still bash you for using it, but I think that it's acceptable. That's me, not a golden rule. Another exception: Always use an adverb when the alternative will be clunky. What I mean is that I've never seen a 'show' version of 'gingerly' that wasn't more awkward than the word 'gingerly'.

6. Structure notes: The 'inciting incident' should happen within the first 25% of your novel. The inciting incident is the thing that means that life can't go on as normal. The man finds his wife in bed with someone else, the portal to the next dimension appears, the character comes across an orphan and has to re-think how he approaches his life. This is a lot more vague in 'literary fiction', which means you have to be a hell of a lot better writer to pull it off.

7. Try to reduce filtering. We talked about this briefly in group, but what this means is that you want to limit your use of 'heard', 'saw', etc. We assume the viewpoint is from the POV indicated, but when you draw attention to it, it has the bizarre effect of distancing the reader. I used the example: "She heard a shot from the other side of the room." The reader assumes it's what the POV character heard, so state it as, "A shot rang out from across the room." This allows the reader to identify with the character instead of coming to the realization that the character is not THEM. The exception here is that sometimes you need to let the reader know that it's something specific to the character. "She'd heard the news, and it wasn't pretty." (Note to critique readers: You're gonna find a lot of this in my work because I have a lot of 'internal' stuff for an action genre. Point it out, because I can't always see it and it's like sleeping with a stripper…you'll never get the glitter out of the sheets. It's just everywhere for some of us and we need to have it pointed out.)

8. Adverbs. You've heard adverbs are bad, right? But why are they bad? They're only bad because they serve to shore up a weak verb. "Walked slowly" is "crept". "Listened attentively" is better described by showing the facial expression and movements of the character. If you keep this in mind, you'll still use adverbs occasionally (see what I did there?), but you won't overuse them and you won't use them for the wrong reason. You can break any rule you want if you know WHY the rule exists and address it.

9. Take a drill and lobotomize the part of your brain that has learned the word 'really'. Really. You almost never need it. Exceptions include dialogue, because people honestly talk that way. While you're drilling into your grey matter, remove the word 'almost', at least for fiction except for dialogue. You can do anything you want in dialogue because people speak like imbeciles. This is especially true if they're talking to someone to whom they are attracted.

10. Dialogue should convey verisimilitude, but it should skip the shit the reader doesn't want to hear. This includes 'um' unless you need it to emphasize a pause. PLEASE LISTEN CLOSELY TO THIS: Skip 'dialogue preamble' like 'Well,'. or 'Yes,'. Yup, we use it when we speak, but you can cut it and no one will miss it and it'll make your dialogue sing. ALSO THIS: People do NOT regularly use a person's name when they speak because they're literally talking to the person they're addressing. Use names as emphasis. Think of them as chili peppers—too much and it's inedible.

11. Dialogue again: Never have your characters discuss shit they already know. Try not to have them think about it either. This makes it hard to build your world, but you need to find a way around it. Personally, I use 'naive' characters so that explaining makes sense. ****** is using tweens, so that should work, though they already know a lot. I don't know enough about ****'s character because I didn't get that far in the reading. I know NOTHING of********'s characters because she didn't read from her work.

12. Structure again, because it was mentioned: You MAY have a natural instinct for structure. It may be your strength and it's why you see authors like King advise against outlines or clear structure goals. The thing is, you can't teach that which comes naturally to you—you do it automatically, so many authors avoid talking about structure because it DOES naturally come to them. Use critique and betas to find out whether you really can 'pants' it or not. Many can, but some writers absolutely can't find a plot with a flashlight and decoder ring. If that's you, you need to know as early as possible so that you can plan more. This doesn't make you a worse writer. The only bad writers are writers who don't know what they're bad at and don't come up with systems to help them.

13. Equivocation: The word 'seem' should rarely appear in your work. You're writing from the POV of your character and you need to get it across, even if it's wrong. A character can be mistaken (and it's fun to use that when you can), but write it as though it's definitively what's happening. Don't use "a little". It's vague as a quantity and it equivocates when, almost always, such equivocation is both unnecessary and detrimental to your narrative.

14. Adjectives, too many. Not every noun needs an adjective. I see it a lot in early work and I STILL do it a lot and have to pull it out. What's IMPORTANT to emphasize? Emphasize that. You saw in my own work that I used 'vestigial tub'. I've been hammered for it because the tub isn't important enough for a ten dollar adjective.

15. THIS BLEW MY MIND: You can skip 'transportation'. Look at movies. You don't need to show them crossing a street, you can simply place them on the other side and trust that the reader knows how they got there. My third chapter takes a direct cut to a bar with a VERY brief description of why my MC is there now and how it happened. One reader has suggested that I show the details. I want to kill this reader because it's bad advice. She suggested it because she doesn't know the characters very well yet and wanted 'flavor'. The flavor comes later and in the midst of things. Salt is good IN something, but by itself…I dunno, I guess it kills leaches. It isn't good by itself.

16. MOAR STRUCTURE!! The 'turning point' should happen by the middle of your novel. The 'turning point' comes when the character has tried the easy way out and it hasn't worked. They accept that they need to change something fundamental. Usually, they hate it. They hate it for the same reason you hate it when your spouse moves your shoes—it takes extra effort and it's awkward and kind of a pain in the ass. Here's the thing about the turning point—from here on out, your character is proactively doing shit, not just reacting to the shit done to her. If you wait too long for this change to happen, people will clobber you with 'passive MC' slurs. Yes, you can kill them, but then you have to change your structure because they're right.

17. Don't give your readers what they want. Is there a misunderstanding in a relationship? Drag it out. Have them be interrupted before anyone can apologize. Giving your characters or your readers what they want kills momentum. If you DO give it to them, take it back in a painful way. My MC gets to have her love for a side character requited briefly before it's yanked away. Then you get both the joy of the kiss and the pain of the separation. Let your reader taste victory early on if you're a bastard like me, but there is no victory of any kind till the end of the novel (and there should be a turd on the wedding cake if you want to turn it into a series).

18. "Things happen" isn't a plot. There needs to be increasing urgency and tension. Exception: "Literary Fiction". However, if you're writing lit, every sentence better give the reader an orgasm, because anything short of that will fail in an embarrassing way.

19. Addendum to number 18: You can't go balls to the wall all the time. Sometimes you DO have to let the reader catch their breath or even give them something small so that you're not writing Life Sucks, Why Don't You Kill Yourself Already, a Novel.

20. You probably already know most of what I've said here. I didn't and so that's why I'm writing this. It's not because I know things. I don't know anything. It's depressing. I'm still very much in the conscious incompetence stage of writing. It's just that it's (barely) better than unconscious incompetence. It's more painful than unconscious incompetence, too. Fuck. I need a beer.
Why you do this to me? :(

Great tips! Thanks for that!
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,345
So I have this friend who's a physicist and he likes to make games on his spare time, but he says that he isn't very good with making up stories, so he asked me to help him. I've never written a script before, but I'm facing this challenge.
hopefully that ends up being fun for you.
First thing I would do is figure out what type of story you need.

Does he want branching paths on the story.
something deep and complex
something more light and fluffy?

if it's branching paths keep in mind that each branch quickly increases your work load unless you can converge branches. I tried one at some point and I had to stop because it exploded out of control when I was trying to branch any major interesting decision.
I wanted things to have actual effects so I couldn't converge them, so each time I branched the path it basically doubled the work to finish that path.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,978
Well, still no bites on my Query, trying to revise it again and see if I can craft something more enticing (though my Wife speculates my writing is just niche). I'm trying to make the Query shorter, like someone suggested back on Neogaf. Got it down from 360ish to 260ish, but I'm weary of trimming further, I read that if you trade too many specifics for vague descriptions it's even harder to hook agents.

For comparison in case anyone is curious. Feedback is welcome but I know I don't interact regularly enough.:
It has often been assumed mankind will advance endlessly, that our technological and social progression was boundless. In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age, a time where the world united and prosperity would extend to all. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, we found ourselves condemned to an endless era of stagnation.

Now, three hundred years later, an ambitious man, hoping to bring the world back on a path to prosperity, is trapped in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer is a virtual nobody living in Valria City and all his efforts to make something of himself have been met with resounding failure. Yet Kyle finds himself targeted by a secret organization: Resurrection.

Under the command of a hardened, seemingly unkillable, military commander: Von Harcove, they seek to bring mankind back on the path to perfection and Kyle is the key.

But their efforts to capture Kyle are routed by Von's ex-colleague, turned vengeful enemy: Carlos Gira and his pseudo-military organization: Death Eternal. He kidnaps Kyle, believing that if Von is allowed to accomplish his task, it'll tear the very foundation of the world apart.

Desperately trying to save Kyle is his best friend Leon S. Verradi, spurred on by the drive and passion of Kyle's fiancé: Isabelle Reviola. But as the two dig deep to find their friend and loved one, they only become caught up in the violent struggle for control of man's destiny.

But as the players take the field, and the violence escalates, threatening to swallow Valria City in a torrent of death and destruction: One question lingers on Kyle's mind: How could he, a failure and a nobody, possibly be the key to mankind's long lost Golden Age?

Death Eternal, a sci-fi/thriller, is complete at 130,000 words. It is the first in a six part series. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.

It has often been assumed mankind will advance endlessly, that our technological and social progression was boundless. In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, man was condemned to an endless era of stagnation.

Three hundred years later, an ambitious man, hoping to bring the world back on a path to prosperity, is a mere McKing employee toiling in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer knows he can do more, but all his efforts to advance in society have been met with resounding failure.

As the frustration of his situation mounts Kyle becomes targeted by a secret organization: Resurrection. Under the command of a hardened, seemingly unkillable, military commander: Von Harcove, they seek to bring mankind back on the path to perfection and Kyle is their key.

But efforts to secure Kyle are routed by Von's ex-colleague, turned vengeful enemy: Carlos Gira and his own pseudo-military organization: Death Eternal. He kidnaps Kyle, believing that if Von is allowed to accomplish his task, it'll tear apart the foundation of life as we know it.

As Kyle struggles against these two warring groups, and his own fiance and best friend rush to save him, one question lingers on Kyle's mind: How could he, a failure and a nobody, possibly be the key to mankind's long lost Golden Age?

Death Eternal, a sci-fi/thriller, is complete at 130,000 words. It is the first in a six part series. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.



It's easily the worst part of the process. I always feel like I'm doing my 130,000 words of work dirty trying to squeeze it down into an enticing 200-400 words.

I'd say you need to "drill down," and get this query to sound more back-cover-blurblike. You're trying to entice the agent to want to read more, same as a reader, so I think you're giving away too much setting and world building, and not focusing enough on the actual struggle/plot of the book. Instead of providing the background for your world, weave just a taste of it into the background of your character, but stage your query more like a mystery, introducing elements and questions that make the reader want to actually read the book to know more.

So rather than starting out with general background of dystopic earth, a struggle between two factions within that dystopic earth, and a man who is seemingly inconsequential, yet at the center of this struggle, I'd say reverse your order. Start with the man, build up to the factions around him, and reveal that the stakes are to restore a devastated earth

So, something along the lines of, "Kyle Tiefer tried and failed. He failed so many times that his greatest ambition in life now is to make manager at the McKing's franchise he works at. So why is a nobody who works at a fast food restaurant suddenly a target? Why do his friends have to rescue him from two competing organizations that want to change the world, or preserve it? What connection does a man who can't even flip a burger correctly have with a revolutionary, an unkillable military commander, and a President who tried to save the world 300 years ago, and was assassinated for nearly doing so?"

This is just a first pass, taking a quick look, but this way, I've created questions that the reader wants answers to, and instead of laying out the setting of the world at the start, I begin with an average guy, and scale up from there, including the bits and pieces of world, but making it a part of a mystery. This way, a reader looks at and hopefully thinks, "Yeah, what does a fast food guy have to do with all this big stuff?" Rather than presenting the big stuff first, and then saying, "And here's our average hero that's tied into it somehow."

The key to me thinking all this is I really liked the way you ended your query with that question, "How could a failure be the key to the lost Golden Age?" and figured you should actually start closer to that, then reveal your connections.
 

ODD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,223
hopefully that ends up being fun for you.
First thing I would do is figure out what type of story you need.

Does he want branching paths on the story.
something deep and complex
something more light and fluffy?

if it's branching paths keep in mind that each branch quickly increases your work load unless you can converge branches. I tried one at some point and I had to stop because it exploded out of control when I was trying to branch any major interesting decision.
I wanted things to have actual effects so I couldn't converge them, so each time I branched the path it basically doubled the work to finish that path.
Yeah, the first thing I did was asking him these questions. Since it's a small hobby project and the first time he makes an adventure game, he want's it to be small and simple. No branching paths and nothing too complex. He just wants a story about a boy in the late 80's~early 90's trying to escape from school to watch something on a morning show about a games convention (something like an E3). He wants it to be light, silly and funny. I think it's the perfect project to start with.
 

Valdfellgar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
464
Massachusetts
I'd say you need to "drill down," and get this query to sound more back-cover-blurblike. You're trying to entice the agent to want to read more, same as a reader, so I think you're giving away too much setting and world building, and not focusing enough on the actual struggle/plot of the book. Instead of providing the background for your world, weave just a taste of it into the background of your character, but stage your query more like a mystery, introducing elements and questions that make the reader want to actually read the book to know more.

So rather than starting out with general background of dystopic earth, a struggle between two factions within that dystopic earth, and a man who is seemingly inconsequential, yet at the center of this struggle, I'd say reverse your order. Start with the man, build up to the factions around him, and reveal that the stakes are to restore a devastated earth

So, something along the lines of, "Kyle Tiefer tried and failed. He failed so many times that his greatest ambition in life now is to make manager at the McKing's franchise he works at. So why is a nobody who works at a fast food restaurant suddenly a target? Why do his friends have to rescue him from two competing organizations that want to change the world, or preserve it? What connection does a man who can't even flip a burger correctly have with a revolutionary, an unkillable military commander, and a President who tried to save the world 300 years ago, and was assassinated for nearly doing so?"

This is just a first pass, taking a quick look, but this way, I've created questions that the reader wants answers to, and instead of laying out the setting of the world at the start, I begin with an average guy, and scale up from there, including the bits and pieces of world, but making it a part of a mystery. This way, a reader looks at and hopefully thinks, "Yeah, what does a fast food guy have to do with all this big stuff?" Rather than presenting the big stuff first, and then saying, "And here's our average hero that's tied into it somehow."

The key to me thinking all this is I really liked the way you ended your query with that question, "How could a failure be the key to the lost Golden Age?" and figured you should actually start closer to that, then reveal your connections.

Thanks for this, that's solid food for thought and another way to try and approach this Query. I'm definitely considering this as another approach if this other Query doesn't fly.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,978
Thanks for this, that's solid food for thought and another way to try and approach this Query. I'm definitely considering this as another approach if this other Query doesn't fly.

Yeah, that's always the thing, there are lots of different ways to approach a query, none of them the absolute right way. Just keep in mind, the basic function of a query is a teaser. You don't need to overload an agent with all the information about your book's world, or its characters. You want to get them interested enough to ask for more pages, and then, hopefully, your actual book can speak for itself. So confining the query to the overall plot/inciting incident is usually better than trying to explain the minutiae of your setting, or how the super powers work, or why warp drive works in this universe.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,366
Denver, CO
Well, still no bites on my Query, trying to revise it again and see if I can craft something more enticing (though my Wife speculates my writing is just niche). I'm trying to make the Query shorter, like someone suggested back on Neogaf. Got it down from 360ish to 260ish, but I'm weary of trimming further, I read that if you trade too many specifics for vague descriptions it's even harder to hook agents.

For comparison in case anyone is curious. Feedback is welcome but I know I don't interact regularly enough.:
It has often been assumed mankind will advance endlessly, that our technological and social progression was boundless. In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age, a time where the world united and prosperity would extend to all. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, we found ourselves condemned to an endless era of stagnation.

Now, three hundred years later, an ambitious man, hoping to bring the world back on a path to prosperity, is trapped in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer is a virtual nobody living in Valria City and all his efforts to make something of himself have been met with resounding failure. Yet Kyle finds himself targeted by a secret organization: Resurrection.

Under the command of a hardened, seemingly unkillable, military commander: Von Harcove, they seek to bring mankind back on the path to perfection and Kyle is the key.

But their efforts to capture Kyle are routed by Von's ex-colleague, turned vengeful enemy: Carlos Gira and his pseudo-military organization: Death Eternal. He kidnaps Kyle, believing that if Von is allowed to accomplish his task, it'll tear the very foundation of the world apart.

Desperately trying to save Kyle is his best friend Leon S. Verradi, spurred on by the drive and passion of Kyle's fiancé: Isabelle Reviola. But as the two dig deep to find their friend and loved one, they only become caught up in the violent struggle for control of man's destiny.

But as the players take the field, and the violence escalates, threatening to swallow Valria City in a torrent of death and destruction: One question lingers on Kyle's mind: How could he, a failure and a nobody, possibly be the key to mankind's long lost Golden Age?

Death Eternal, a sci-fi/thriller, is complete at 130,000 words. It is the first in a six part series. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.

It has often been assumed mankind will advance endlessly, that our technological and social progression was boundless. In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, man was condemned to an endless era of stagnation.

Three hundred years later, an ambitious man, hoping to bring the world back on a path to prosperity, is a mere McKing employee toiling in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer knows he can do more, but all his efforts to advance in society have been met with resounding failure.

As the frustration of his situation mounts Kyle becomes targeted by a secret organization: Resurrection. Under the command of a hardened, seemingly unkillable, military commander: Von Harcove, they seek to bring mankind back on the path to perfection and Kyle is their key.

But efforts to secure Kyle are routed by Von's ex-colleague, turned vengeful enemy: Carlos Gira and his own pseudo-military organization: Death Eternal. He kidnaps Kyle, believing that if Von is allowed to accomplish his task, it'll tear apart the foundation of life as we know it.

As Kyle struggles against these two warring groups, and his own fiance and best friend rush to save him, one question lingers on Kyle's mind: How could he, a failure and a nobody, possibly be the key to mankind's long lost Golden Age?

Death Eternal, a sci-fi/thriller, is complete at 130,000 words. It is the first in a six part series. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.



It's easily the worst part of the process. I always feel like I'm doing my 130,000 words of work dirty trying to squeeze it down into an enticing 200-400 words.
I'll mark this up to the best of my ability. These notes are just an opinion so take them in stride.

It has often been assumed mankind will advance endlessly, that our technological and social progression was boundless. In the 21st century, we came close to achieving the Golden Age. But with the assassination of the World Government's 1st President, man was condemned to an endless era of stagnation.
This needs to go; it tells me nothing about the story. Imagine I'm an agent—I want to know about your story, not the world's. If I'm sifting through dozens of these a day, I want to be hooked immediately.

Three hundred years later, an ambitious man, hoping to bring the world back on a path to prosperity, is a mere McKing employee toiling in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer knows he can do more, but all his efforts to advance in society have been met with resounding failure.
Try something like this: Three hundred years after World War I, an ambitious man hopes to guide the world back onto a path to prosperity, but toils in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer knows he can do more, but his efforts to advance in society have been met with resounding failure.

As his frustration mounts, Kyle is targeted by a secret organization: Resurrection. Under the command of hardened military commander Von Harcove, they seek to guide mankind back to the path of perfection. Kyle is their key, but efforts to secure him are routed by Von's ex-colleague, (change this title; it's boring as-is) Carlos Gira, and his own (whose? Kyle's or Von's? This is unclear; needs ownership) pseudo-military organization, Death Eternal. He (Again, whose? This is also unclear; needs ownership) kidnaps Kyle, believing if Von is allowed to accomplish his task, it will tear apart the foundation of life as we know it.
Fixed for tense, combined paragraphs for clarity. Needs further clarity.

As Kyle struggles against these two warring opponents, he must discover how to become the key to mankind's long-lost Golden Age.
Took a swing at your closer. Obviously you can decide on the final wording. IMO this should end on a cliffhanger to encourage urgency and add a sense of what the end goal(s) are for the main character.

Hopefully, these opinions help. Distill, distill, and hook 'em! Good luck!
 
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Valdfellgar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
464
Massachusetts
I'll mark this up to the best of my ability. These notes are just an opinion so take them in stride.


This needs to go; it tells me nothing about the story. Imagine I'm an agent—I want to know about your story, not the world's. If I'm sifting through dozens of these a day, I want to be hooked immediately.


Try something like this: Three hundred years after World War I, an ambitious man hopes to guide the world back onto a path to prosperity, but toils in obscurity. Kyle Tiefer knows he can do more, but his efforts to advance in society have been met with resounding failure.


Fixed for tense, combined paragraphs for clarity. Needs further clarity.


Took a swing at your closer. Obviously you can decide on the final wording. IMO this should end on a cliffhanger to encourage urgency and add a sense of what the end goal(s) are for the main character.

Hopefully, these opinions help. Distill, distill, and hook 'em! Good luck!

Thanks for further feedback, definitely a few ways to go on this.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,366
Denver, CO
It's reassuring to know that others feel the same way. I totally, completely LOATHE writing query letters. But if you want to go the traditional publishing route, there's no way around it, it's gotta' be done. Getting help is totally viable, of course. But yeah... Can't avoid the query letter.

It's the barrier between us, the agents, and the publishing world—that idea is pretty frightening. Speaking personally, that I might undo 24 months of hard work because of a few unsuccessful paragraphs is hard to accept—I get why everyone has issues with it.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,978
It's the barrier between us, the agents, and the publishing world—that idea is pretty frightening. Speaking personally, that I might undo 24 months of hard work because of a few unsuccessful paragraphs is hard to accept—I get why everyone has issues with it.

Yeah, it's very alarming if you get into mindset of thinking that this small collection of paragraphs could be the undoing of your entire book. When I finally got my agent last year, my first, immediate thought was "THANK GOD, I don't have to write query letters anymore!"

Then it occurred to me that I should also be happy about getting representation, but the sense of relief at getting out of the "Query Trenches" was actually far bigger than the sense of accomplishment over landing an agent.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,366
Denver, CO
Yeah, it's very alarming if you get into mindset of thinking that this small collection of paragraphs could be the undoing of your entire book. When I finally got my agent last year, my first, immediate thought was "THANK GOD, I don't have to write query letters anymore!"

Then it occurred to me that I should also be happy about getting representation, but the sense of relief at getting out of the "Query Trenches" was actually far bigger than the sense of accomplishment over landing an agent.
I'm happy for you—that's awesome! :D

If I'm fortunate enough to land one, getting an agent would make everything feel more real for me. Representation from someone who believes in my story enough to to fight on my behalf would be a dream.
 
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VileZero

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
438
Maryland/DC
Ok, here goes!

I sent this as an email for my local critique group early on. I'd already been in an online critique community and figured I could share some of the things I learned. I wanted to post it here to see if you agree or disagree with any of it and so that YOU could share YOUR craft advice too. Alright, everything beneath this is from the email:

I thought I'd just share some things I've learned in critique. Take or leave as it suits you.

1. Prologues: Don't. If you need a prologue, it means you don't know how to fold world-building into your writing. There are no good prologues. You're asking your reader to begin your story twice. The best you can hope for is a tolerable prologue. Tolerable means that you sit through it in order to get to the actual story. Please don't ask your readers to do this. So why do so many beginning writers write prologues? It's cheap, easy world-building. It's a place to info-dump.

This is a really great list, but I do disagree with the first point. I've read a ton of books that have prologues. For some books, it works. For others, it doesn't. Not every book utilizes it to info dump (though if you ARE using it to info dump, then bad writer! Bad!). There's a wide variety of reasons a prologue can be utilized - to build mystery, for some opening action, etc.

That's just my two cents, though. I've seen the debate about prologues for almost a decade now - and it never gets resolved. Some use it, some don't... the world keeps on spinning and books that have them (or don't!) keep getting published.

Also - hi! I'm new to this Hangout, but very much hoping to jump into some discussion. I'm waist deep in my fantasy novel (to be fair, I've been at it for way too long), but I'm hoping this is the year I make some great progress. Cheers!
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,978
This is a really great list, but I do disagree with the first point. I've read a ton of books that have prologues. For some books, it works. For others, it doesn't. Not every book utilizes it to info dump (though if you ARE using it to info dump, then bad writer! Bad!). There's a wide variety of reasons a prologue can be utilized - to build mystery, for some opening action, etc.

I agree, prologues can be useful in certain situations. I've used them a couple of times in my books. But I also understand that it's very easy mess these up. I know Game of Thrones and a few other fantasy titles have popularized the prologue as a way to introduce the bad guy and kill off some characters that aren't your main characters, and this has created a running cliche now that a lot of fantasy writers fall victim to. I've tended to use prologues more in the same way James Bond movies do, giving the main character a dynamic action sequence to establish who she is and lay in some groundwork for the overall plot, so I can avoid the "Just woke up and wondered what to do today" opening that a lot of first chapters tend to start out with.
 
Flowers’ fight scene tips
Oct 25, 2017
6,377
Coming in late on this but great list Butt-shot Katana some really helpful stuff I'm going to use in the future. Specifically the filtering and transportation one.

*Some advice from me. In action scenes Clarity>>>Style. If people don't know what's going on, your fight scene is automatically terrible no matter how cool you're describing it. Also knowledge of martial arts helps a bit, it lets you expand your vocabulary and a better vocabulary about a subject means you have better ways to describe it.

*Read stories in the genre you're writing. Make note of what they're doing, how they're writing it, what is and isn't working for you with it.

*Read stories out of your genre/comfort zone. Variety is the spice of life and all that jazz

*Nothing is final. Just cause you're writing a thing doesn't mean people automatically need to read it. Its okay to have things for yourself. Experiment, do weird prose, try different styles of writing and know its okay to write and put time into bad things. My prose went from very thick to nearly minimalistic to a bit more of a balance right now. Currently, I'm trying to add some meat to my writing style again because I think my descriptions have been lacking. Experimentation is the key to evolution. In the course of this change, I've wrtiten Bradbury-esque space adventure, dark fantasy adventures, and silly stories of kids falling in and out of love. I've come to terms with the fact no one will ever read those stories and that's fine because I wrote them and I enjoyed it and have gotten a little better with each one.

*Each scene/chapter/whatever should have some kind of change. Whether if its the characters move locations or soften up on their ideals, there should be a change somewhere otherwise your scene/chapter/whatever is meaningless. That's the secret to pacing, making sure things are always moving even if its just small things like your characters decide tomorrow would be a good day to get coffee. Even your quiet chapters should have some form of change in them. Again, its okay for that change to be small, just so long as its there.

Also dropping a link to the latest short story challenge because they're great. I've been doing them for like three+ years and have learned a lot from them. They've been great at keeping me writing consistently and we've got quite a few really talented writers in there. If you're not confident in your style and not really sure what might be your strengths/weakness these are a good way to get an idea of what others think of your writing. 10/10 can't recommend them enough.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,345
Also dropping a link to the latest short story challenge because they're great. I've been doing them for like three+ years and have learned a lot from them. They've been great at keeping me writing consistently and we've got quite a few really talented writers in there. If you're not confident in your style and not really sure what might be your strengths/weakness these are a good way to get an idea of what others think of your writing. 10/10 can't recommend them enough.
I wish I could find more motivation to do these... but alas the usual motivation people have to do them I can't use :P

aka the motivation to write something >.>

thanks for the more suggestions

"*Read stories out of your genre/comfort zone. Variety is the spice of life and all that jazz"
is likely a fine suggestion but there isn't any chance of it happening for me. best I will do is watch TV shows/ movies outside of my comfort zone :P
 

Deleted member 4532

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,936
Coming in late on this but great list Butt-shot Katana some really helpful stuff I'm going to use in the future. Specifically the filtering and transportation one.

*Some advice from me. In action scenes Clarity>>>Style. If people don't know what's going on, your fight scene is automatically terrible no matter how cool you're describing it. Also knowledge of martial arts helps a bit, it lets you expand your vocabulary and a better vocabulary about a subject means you have better ways to describe it.

*Read stories in the genre you're writing. Make note of what they're doing, how they're writing it, what is and isn't working for you with it.

*Read stories out of your genre/comfort zone. Variety is the spice of life and all that jazz

*Nothing is final. Just cause you're writing a thing doesn't mean people automatically need to read it. Its okay to have things for yourself. Experiment, do weird prose, try different styles of writing and know its okay to write and put time into bad things. My prose went from very thick to nearly minimalistic to a bit more of a balance right now. Currently, I'm trying to add some meat to my writing style again because I think my descriptions have been lacking. Experimentation is the key to evolution. In the course of this change, I've wrtiten Bradbury-esque space adventure, dark fantasy adventures, and silly stories of kids falling in and out of love. I've come to terms with the fact no one will ever read those stories and that's fine because I wrote them and I enjoyed it and have gotten a little better with each one.

*Each scene/chapter/whatever should have some kind of change. Whether if its the characters move locations or soften up on their ideals, there should be a change somewhere otherwise your scene/chapter/whatever is meaningless. That's the secret to pacing, making sure things are always moving even if its just small things like your characters decide tomorrow would be a good day to get coffee. Even your quiet chapters should have some form of change in them. Again, its okay for that change to be small, just so long as its there.

Also dropping a link to the latest short story challenge because they're great. I've been doing them for like three+ years and have learned a lot from them. They've been great at keeping me writing consistently and we've got quite a few really talented writers in there. If you're not confident in your style and not really sure what might be your strengths/weakness these are a good way to get an idea of what others think of your writing. 10/10 can't recommend them enough.
Wish I could bookmark this for the future
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,290
Minnesota
Got a custom rejection letter from a publishing house, which is kinda cool. They basically told me to try a few other places, since Toyland isn't really in their wheelhouse. Pretty sure their list of genres they publish is "everything" but oh well.

Got some new leads!

Edit: But they're shit leads after a quick search. Neither place will take unagented authors.

Fucking hell. This is what I get for trying that place again.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,437
So I have a question to people who have beta readers. I haven't used them in the past, but due to some self-confidence issues lately I wanted to have a few people read it before that. So I reached out to some writers I know, and I got... way more takers than I anticipated. Is it good to have 6+ beta readers, or is that too many cooks in the kitchen? Should I pick a couple or just go wild and send it to all of them?

I thought I'd get one, maybe two, people tops...
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,978
So I have a question to people who have beta readers. I haven't used them in the past, but due to some self-confidence issues lately I wanted to have a few people read it before that. So I reached out to some writers I know, and I got... way more takers than I anticipated. Is it good to have 6+ beta readers, or is that too many cooks in the kitchen? Should I pick a couple or just go wild and send it to all of them?

I thought I'd get one, maybe two, people tops...

If you've never had any beta readers before, I'd say it's a good idea to get as many as you can, with the goal being to "shortlist" readers who's input you find valuable. Keep in mind that not all beta readers are going to be a good fit for you and the kind of writing you're trying to do, even if they're in the same genre. If it ends up you find ALL of these potential readers give you good input that you feel improves your work, then by all means, keep 'em around, having too many beta readers is a good problem to have. But most people will find that good beta readers are in short supply as some people just never get around to reading your book, some are more interested in insulting or cutting down perceived competitors/threats than providing genuine editorial insight, and others just aren't good beta readers, even though they mean well, and aren't giving you the kind of actionable insight that is useful to you.