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Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,503
...

Do you want me to respond to you seriously? Because that last line is snide in the extreme.

It's snide because the concept I was talking about (owning creatures and making them fight) is handled so lightly it never really approaches a level that would demand people to take it seriously. Like I said, the average 6 year old kid watching pokemon isn't putting together how its a sorta fucked up concept and the older audience is largely with the understanding its super whimsical loose fantasy.

Anyway - reinforcing gender roles (both male and female)

It's sorta crappy here season to season yeah

racism, homophobia, transphobia.

I'd be super interested in hearing this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
We've gone from anthropomorphising aspects of nature as divine - often inhuman entities - to anthropomorphising everything into sexy - often prepubescent - girls.

No wonder advanced alien civilizations avoid us.

Anthropomorphising objects has been around forever. I remember when I was in Japan, a ton of stores had "mascots" that were just anthropomorphised versions of whatever was being sold. And that extended beyond stores and into stuff like traffic pylons, vending machines, trash cans, etc. Extending it to actual manga/anime/games just opens the floodgates, like that one series about the anthropomorphized soda bottles or the one about the anthropomorphized vagina that got cancelled. Kancolle isn't even the first instance of it being done to battleships.

I also follow this Singaporean artist that anthropomorphizes everything, usually to sexy and horrifying results (like a sealed pack of chopsticks before getting ripped apart).
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
So I added a new term to my lexicon : bathos (handy video on bathos)

This is a great word because it encapsulates one of my frustrations with character designs in video games. This frustration isn't restricted to female designs but afflicts them the most due to this "titillation first" mentality that's been growing ever more prominent and extreme in games where it just isn't appropriate. Elements that distract from or disrupt the drama a narrative is trying to build can have a bathos style effect.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,503

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Pokemon transphobic? The only thing I've seen regarding transness in Pokemon is something I've only seen interpreted as positive- a trans woman Beauty saying she used to be a Karate King and that science was a wonderful thing. Similarly, in the LGBT spectrum, there was a cross-dressing guy in Gen 5 who was treated quite sympathetically, that you could even go on a date of sorts with.

Jynx is... A whole mess I could get into but the end result is just me agreeing the Gen 1-2 design for her is definitely problematic on some level.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Pokemon transphobic? The only thing I've seen regarding transness in Pokemon is something I've only seen interpreted as positive- a trans woman Beauty saying she used to be a Karate King and that science was a wonderful thing. Similarly, in the LGBT spectrum, there was a cross-dressing guy in Gen 5 who was treated quite sympathetically, that you could even go on a date of sorts with.

Jynx is... A whole mess I could get into but the end result is just me agreeing the Gen 1-2 design for her is definitely problematic on some level.
Yeah, except the translation for that transgender character is made extremely unclear in the English translation, for reasons that are kinda sketchy.
https://legendsoflocalization.com/qa-is-this-character-in-pokemon-xy-transgender/
Interesting stuff there, don't really follow Pokemon so must of this is new to me too. That Portly Gazelle article is unhinged ramblings of a teenager though. Still, it does bring up a good point nonetheless.
Agreed about the portly gazelle - and there are other articles as well about the homophobia issues.


That said, Niantic at least is trying - http://planettransgender.com/pokemon-go-non-binary-gender-choice-praised/


Anthropomorphising objects has been around forever. I remember when I was in Japan, a ton of stores had "mascots" that were just anthropomorphised versions of whatever was being sold. And that extended beyond stores and into stuff like traffic pylons, vending machines, trash cans, etc. Extending it to actual manga/anime/games just opens the floodgates, like that one series about the anthropomorphized soda bottles or the one about the anthropomorphized vagina that got cancelled. Kancolle isn't even the first instance of it being done to battleships.

I also follow this Singaporean artist that anthropomorphizes everything, usually to sexy and horrifying results (like a sealed pack of chopsticks before getting ripped apart).
Actually part of the reason it happens so much in Japanese culture has a lot to do with their culture and object worship. Objects are, by many, considered to have souls just like people. This leads to some... well, colorful interpretations of that, and obviously led to a lot of the humanizing factors for different inanimate objects.

Kimi no Na Wa (Your Name) presents this idea
wherein the sake is used for body transfer as it contains part of the "soul" of one of the characters.
 
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Deleted member 32561

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3,831
Yeah, except the translation for that transgender character is made extremely unclear in the English translation, for reasons that are kinda sketchy.
https://legendsoflocalization.com/qa-is-this-character-in-pokemon-xy-transgender/

Agreed about the portly gazelle - and there are other articles as well about the homophobia issues.


That said, Niantic at least is trying - http://planettransgender.com/pokemon-go-non-binary-gender-choice-praised/
The localization itself is definitely a problem and I don't know what they were going for. If Japanese kids can handle it so can English speaking ones.

With Go, besides the whole "choose appearance" rather than "choose gender" thing, let's also not forget Blanche isn't canonically gendered either. Might be a man, might be a woman, might be nonbinary. Evidently that was Kozaki's decision. I think that's pretty cool.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784

Some of these controversies seem to be seeing things that just aren't there like Heatmor's design. Also, that last article isn't even the least bit professional and is just way too over the top to take seriously.

I totally forgot how many Nazi controversies there were with Pokemon. I don't think the disconnect between the manji in the east and the swatstika in the west will ever end.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
The localization itself is definitely a problem and I don't know what they were going for. If Japanese kids can handle it so can English speaking ones.

With Go, besides the whole "choose appearance" rather than "choose gender" thing, let's also not forget Blanche isn't canonically gendered either. Might be a man, might be a woman, might be nonbinary. Evidently that was Kozaki's decision. I think that's pretty cool.
Indeed. To Nintendo's credit, I do think they're trying with most of their products (current Fire Emblem garbage aside).
Some of these controversies seem to be seeing things that just aren't there like Heatmor's design. Also, that last article isn't even the least bit professional and is just way too over the top to take seriously.

I totally forgot how many Nazi controversies there were with Pokemon. I don't think the disconnect between the manji in the east and the swatstika in the west will ever end.
Sure, but this is also nitpicky. The issues stem from larger problems and cultural assumptions.
Let's not forget the characters who taught a whole generation of kids and teenagers to give gender-coding the middle finger it deserves!
bd84674aa457595892ce85b888b872fe.jpg
Jessie and James are awesome.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Huh, is that really a concious choice made by the devs. Really cool if it's not just a happy coincidence but they actually thought about this angle.
I've talked to the Niantic devs and it's a decision they're making. They're trying to be more inclusive but have said that it can take a long time because there's basically a whole approval process for making changes and they (often) have to go through Nintendo.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,359
If you read that thread you see people going "thank god people whining about sexism didn't get their way."

Vindictive assholes.

That's not what vindictive means though:
"Having or showing a strong or unreasoning desire for revenge"

You could say sexist assholes, but vindictive assholes? Not really
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I think one of Go's team leaders is gender neutral, too? It's probably hoping too much that stuff like that makes it into the main series, though, sadly.
Make of this what you will, but I have been told that Niantic feels they've had a positive influence on Nintendo's Pokemon team and concerns about being inclusive are at least making their way up the chain there.

That said, I'm still pretty sure a lot of the normative stuff will remain.
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
That's not what vindictive means though:
"Having or showing a strong or unreasoning desire for revenge"

You could say sexist assholes, but vindictive assholes? Not really
Vindictive can be appropriate though. It's not unusual for these pushback reactions to come from a feeling of having been attacked (they are attacking what I like/taking away my things) leading to a feeling of having revenge on those who didn't get their way. Sweet vengeance against those SJWs getting slapped down! I'd even say the use of the word spite would sometimes be appropriate.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
That's not what vindictive means though:
"Having or showing a strong or unreasoning desire for revenge"

You could say sexist assholes, but vindictive assholes? Not really
Uh, they're happy that the people against sexism didn't win and ruin the things they love. "Haha fuckos you didn't get your way, continue to suffer."

That fits the vindictive bill exactly.

Please.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
That sense of vindication exists on both sides. Don't lie and say you're not getting a bit of schadenfreude out of seeing their reaction to something overly sexual getting censored for the west.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,359
Uh, they're happy that the people against sexism didn't win and ruin the things they love. "Haha fuckos you didn't get your way, continue to suffer."

That fits the vindictive bill exactly.

Please.

It doesn't though. There has to be an aspect of revenge for someone to be vindictive (from the latin vindicta, "revenge").
 
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OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,455
I dreamed I bought FFXV again and that among all the updates it has had were Aranea and Luna as party members and the option to buy a Cindy amiibo in-game to change her outfit. People kept using it to put her in stupid "sexy" outfits but I just gave the poor girl a T-shirt and jeans. Also pretty sure I had to lecture Prompto on appropriate touching. Anyway I woke up filled with a new appreciation for FFXV and a determination to buy it again then I remembered that the sexism seems to be the one fucking thing they haven't patched out :')))
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
That sense of vindication exists on both sides. Don't lie and say you're not getting a bit of schadenfreude out of seeing their reaction to something overly sexual getting censored for the west.
No, not really. It just makes me fucking annoyed because they should actually learn to understand the difference between "localization" and "censorship" and the reasoning behind such changes in the first place.

Instead, we get a bunch of people who can't use their damn brains and put two-and-two together, let alone exhibit anything resembling basic human empathy. Yeah, no, not something I feel vindicated about at all.
 

Deleted member 4037

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Oct 25, 2017
6,989
I mean whatever side your on the change or lack there of would result in some sort of win or loss for your team in these us vs them kind of situations. Whatever side "won" is going to gloat, I really wouldnt expect any less

I should say this isnt a comment on who I think is right or wrong
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I mean whatever side your on the change or lack there of would result in some sort of win or loss for your team in these us vs them kind of situations. Whatever side "won" is going to gloat, I really wouldnt expect any less

I should say this isnt a comment on who I think is right or wrong
I'll just say that I don't really think changing the source material is a "win". Ideally it would be unnecessary.
 

Deleted member 4037

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6,989
I'll just say that I don't really think changing the source material is a "win". Ideally it would be unnecessary.
I mean the challenge is the challenge, Cindy has been discussed since the betas for ffxv, certainly enough time to change out a model. If something did change I think there would be a subset of people who would consider it a win because it conforms more to their ideals while others would claim it as a loss because something was changed by those "pesky sjws" or something like that
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I mean the challenge is the challenge, Cindy has been discussed since the betas for ffxv, certainly enough time to change out a model. If something did change I think there would be a subset of people who would consider it a win because it conforms more to their ideals while others would claim it as a loss because something was changed by those "pesky sjws" or something like that
It seems extremely petty to treat this like a competition.
 

Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
I think one of Go's team leaders is gender neutral, too? It's probably hoping too much that stuff like that makes it into the main series, though, sadly.
Aint that a japanese trope to include character that they never define and let it up to the reader to decide? Chrora (Kurona) from Soul Eater, Nanachi from MiAbyss, D'Eon on Fate/ Grand Order
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Read the rest of the post and you will find it out ;)
There was no answer to my question in the rest of your post. One can be embarrassed by consuming shitty pandering around someone even if the person they're talking about is okay with it. Your post displays a gross misunderstanding of the situation.

In other words: so?
 

RalchAC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
825
Anthropomorphising objects has been around forever. I remember when I was in Japan, a ton of stores had "mascots" that were just anthropomorphised versions of whatever was being sold. And that extended beyond stores and into stuff like traffic pylons, vending machines, trash cans, etc. Extending it to actual manga/anime/games just opens the floodgates, like that one series about the anthropomorphized soda bottles or the one about the anthropomorphized vagina that got cancelled. Kancolle isn't even the first instance of it being done to battleships.

I also follow this Singaporean artist that anthropomorphizes everything, usually to sexy and horrifying results (like a sealed pack of chopsticks before getting ripped apart).

In Japanese mythology, there is the idea that once an item is 100 years old it's turned into a yokai (aka spirit), so I'd say that's probably when all this stuff comes from. Stuff like the key Pokemon and others that people find stupid are probably based on this idea.

I dreamed I bought FFXV again and that among all the updates it has had were Aranea and Luna as party members and the option to buy a Cindy amiibo in-game to change her outfit. People kept using it to put her in stupid "sexy" outfits but I just gave the poor girl a T-shirt and jeans. Also pretty sure I had to lecture Prompto on appropriate touching. Anyway I woke up filled with a new appreciation for FFXV and a determination to buy it again then I remembered that the sexism seems to be the one fucking thing they haven't patched out :')))

I don't really understand why people can like Cindy. Not because of the fanservice, I'm aware people can like it. But Full Metal Alchemist did it much better, with her wearing proper robes for the kind of job she does while using a sports bra underneath. Which is far from perfect, obviously (Winry gets the short side of the stick and is used for titillation every once in a while, as opposed to every other woman in the series), but at least when I look at her clothes my inmediate thought isn't "why the hell is half of your skin exposed while you're working as a mechanic, do you want to end up in the hospital?".

Does Gladio get the same treatment when it comes to cutscene direction and how his body is framed in different shots as Cindy? I haven't played the game, but I'd say that no. People love to say "it's the same, cause Gladiolo is shirtless" when it's not the same at all, because the use of the camera is as, if not more, important than the design itself. I've seen scenes where people is naked in a shower that didn't feel sexualized, because it was shown as a normal and natural thing, and I've seen scenes where much less skin is shown but it felt much, much worse. Velvet design is absolutely awful, but I never felt that the camera was telling me "wohooo have you seen her boobs!", to give a recent example. Again, if there is some scene where this is actually enforced in Tales of Berseria, feel free to correct me, my memory is not perfect.

The biggest problem is that people just take things at face value, and don't bother to actually understand everything but the very surface. And then find like minded people and reinforce their views. This is the same when people says a group of people that's probably been working way over 80 hours a week for six months to have their favorite game in time for the holiday season is lazy.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Does Gladio get the same treatment when it comes to cutscene direction and how his body is framed in different shots as Cindy? I haven't played the game, but I'd say that no. People love to say "it's the same, cause Gladiolo is shirtless" when it's not the same at all, because the use of the camera is as, if not more, important than the design itself.

Yeah Gladio doesn't have the same camera work as Cindy, obviously.

Also, shirtless Gladio is a DLC costume, it's not in the base game (the most you have is open-jacket Gladio). People that quote shirtless Gladio probably don't even have the game.
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Yeah Gladio doesn't have the same camera work as Cindy, obviously.

Also, shirtless Gladio is a DLC costume, it's not in the base game (the most you have is open-jacket Gladio). People that quote shirtless Gladio probably don't even have the game.
since mod support will happen for ff15, time to do the MGS 5 thing and swap models to show how ridiculous the camera is for cindy by swapping it out with other game models . (it helps show bad it is,) and mod support will probably get people new clothing skin options for characters.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,989
I don't really understand why people can like Cindy. Not because of the fanservice, I'm aware people can like it. But Full Metal Alchemist did it much better
I mean thats a pretty weak reason lol, just because you like something better doesnt mean that you cant also like this and also doesnt mean that everyone has seen FMA
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
since mod support will happen for ff15, time to do the MGS 5 thing and swap models to show how ridiculous the camera is for cindy by swapping it out with other game models . (it helps show bad it is,) and mod support will probably get people new clothing skin options for characters.

Yeah mod support sounds really cool ,wish it was more common in consoles. I actually like a lot of stuff in XV so modding part of the bad (because the story and some characters can't be modded lol) sounds awesome.
 

RalchAC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
825
I mean thats a pretty weak reason lol, just because you like something better doesnt mean that you cant also like this and also doesnt mean that everyone has seen FMA

It's not about liking FMA especifically. It's about how you can do an outfit that allows yourself to include fanservice, if you deem it absolutely neccesary for some reason, without being absolutely awful and inmersion breaking.

I just used Winry as an example because it's a character with a similar profession that has an outfit that is actually believable and makes sense with her background, which shows that you can do MUCH better when you design a character.

Cindy looks more like one of those sexy women in similar films to early F&F, that are shown washing a car in slow motion while using skimpy clothes, instead of the actual mechanic she is supposed to be. Even if you leave the fact that is a sexualized character, it's a bad design because it makes no sense at all.

So I don't understand why people can defend that design, because you can do much better than that even if you want to see cleavage.
 

Deleted member 4037

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Oct 25, 2017
6,989
It's not about liking FMA especifically. It's about how you can do an outfit that allows yourself to include fanservice, if you deem it absolutely neccesary for some reason, without being absolutely awful and inmersion breaking.

I just used Winry as an example because it's a character with a similar profession that has an outfit that is actually believable and makes sense with her background, which shows that you can do MUCH better when you design a character.

Cindy looks more like one of those sexy women in similar films to early F&F, that are shown washing a car in slow motion while using skimpy clothes, instead of the actual mechanic she is supposed to be. Even if you leave the fact that is a sexualized character, it's a bad design because it makes no sense at all.

So I don't understand why people can defend that design, because you can do much better than that even if you want to see cleavage.
I think this comes down to how immersion breaking this is for the individual, I dont think most people think about the implications.

the "it has been done better" argument is silly though
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
It's not about liking FMA especifically. It's about how you can do an outfit that allows yourself to include fanservice, if you deem it absolutely neccesary for some reason, without being absolutely awful and inmersion breaking.

I just used Winry as an example because it's a character with a similar profession that has an outfit that is actually believable and makes sense with her background, which shows that you can do MUCH better when you design a character.

Cindy looks more like one of those sexy women in similar films to early F&F, that are shown washing a car in slow motion while using skimpy clothes, instead of the actual mechanic she is supposed to be. Even if you leave the fact that is a sexualized character, it's a bad design because it makes no sense at all.

So I don't understand why people can defend that design, because you can do much better than that even if you want to see cleavage.

I don't see why it needs to be defended?

I guess it might be immersion breaking for some, but not everyone

For a game like final fantasy seeing Cindy never pulled me out of the game and/or think about the design in any way outside of "I like this" or "yeah that looks sexy"

I can certainly respect people who had a different experience though
 
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