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Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Except this isn't a mobile game, and it isn't a Japanese-only game. How many male idol games are available in the west for consoles? Hell, how many western console games feature attractive males targetted at women?

You're just comparing apples to oranges to support your "there's already equality" narrative.

But this is a mobile game for Ios and Android just like the trailer says. Hell, the market for Idol raising game is mobile too, be it male or female. Only Idolmaster has a success on console, even if it's success is much bigger in mobile, be it the normal one or sideM.

Also, how is Nintendo related to it if this is a Square Enix game? Are you sure you posted the thread that you wanted?
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Sadly, as Xenoblade 2 has proven, I don't believe a lot of people even care. And that confuses me. Have they really become that desanitised to awful character designs? I guess, if they grew up with them, and have never really experienced anything outside of that bubble...

But, of course, that would be implying that these designs could have a genuine affect on the way people perceive the world, and, as we have been reminded time and again in this thread, that is clearly nonsense!

Even if we as a group can acknowledge that maybe these issues of sexualization / objectification can have a negative impact on a portion of the people that consume the media (in regards to how they perceive people in the real world)

What's the solution? I mean obviously besides just having a conversation about it, not that there's anything wrong with just having the discussion

I'll happily acknowledge I blatantly consume a lot of problematic media, is that enough?

I look at it like lots of "vices" that apply to the real world

Drugs, tobacco, alcohol, etc

We can acknowledge these things can have a negative impact on the ones that consume it, but for a lot of people it's an acceptable part of something they enjoy

And even if we acknowledge that this harmful media can be shaping some impressionable people, can those that can safely consume it without harm to others be denied it "for the greater good "? See I don't think so

But In my experience in this topic and others on this very forum, admitting you simply like the content while admitting it has issues doesn't appear to be enough, so what is the solution (short of it not existing at all, which I said earlier isn't really on the table)
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Even if we as a group can acknowledge that maybe these issues of sexualization / objectification can have a negative impact on a portion of the people that consume the media (in regards to how they perceive people in the real world)

What's the solution? I mean obviously besides just having a conversation about it, not that there's anything wrong with just having the discussion

I'll happily acknowledge I blatantly consume a lot of problematic media, is that enough?

I look at it like lots of "vices" that apply to the real world

Drugs, tobacco, alcohol, etc

We can acknowledge these things can have a negative impact on the ones that consume it, but for a lot of people it's an acceptable part of something they enjoy

And even if we acknowledge that this harmful media can be shaping some impressionable people, can those that can safely consume it without harm to others be denied it "for the greater good "? See I don't think so

But In my experience in this topic and others on this very forum, admitting you simply like the content while admitting it has issues doesn't appear to be enough, so what is the solution (short of it not existing at all, which I said earlier isn't really on the table)
Those "vices" are heavily regulated when they can affect other people, smoking for example is not allowed in workplaces anymore, Drugs/alcohol aren't allowed when driving, alcohol has strict times when it can be sold, all of them are heavily taxed, the majority of drugs are prohitbited by law, and most governments/ health service have heavily funded campaigns to get people to stop using them. No ones just shrugging their shoulder at them, going it's their choice at all.

You admit that sexualised designs affect real people, but you think because you admit that but because you like them, and want them to stay, you think people will give you a clap on the back for that? Do you know what that sounds like? It sounds like you don't care that real women are affected by them, but because you got what you want, you are fine with it. You already know what the solution to the problem is - you just don't like it.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Those "vices" are heavily regulated when they can affect other people, smoking for example is not allowed in workplaces anymore, Drugs/alcohol aren't allowed when driving, alcohol has strict times when it can be sold, all of them are heavily taxed, the majority of drugs are prohitbited by law, and most governments/ health service have heavily funded campaigns to get people to stop using them. No ones just shrugging their shoulder at them, going it's their choice at all.

You admit that sexualised designs affect real people, but you think because you admit that but because you like them, and want them to stay, you think people will give you a clap on the back for that? Do you know what that sounds like? It sounds like you don't care that real women are affected by them, but because you got what you want, you are fine with it. You already know what the solution to the problem is - you just don't like it.

Since clearly many people can and do consume this type of media without issue (taking those perceptions into the real world) then yeah I don't like that solution

Should 100 people pay for the 5 that can't make that separation or consume responsibly?

(Numbers from my ass obviously I'm just trying to make a point)

Some people can't control their consumption of alcohol and become alcoholics or drink and drive

Do we ban alcohol for the greater good in that case?

They tried that and it didn't work

Maybe vices like alcohol aren't a good analogy but it was the first I could think of if we are all arguing these things are bad for us
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Are we talking about two different games? It's a game for iOS and Android with no indication of it coming to the west, at least not in that thread.

But this is a mobile game for Ios and Android just like the trailer says. Hell, the market for Idol raising game is mobile too, be it male or female. Only Idolmaster has a success on console, even if it's success is much bigger in mobile, be it the normal one or sideM.

Also, how is Nintendo related to it if this is a Square Enix game? Are you sure you posted the thread that you wanted?

Excuse the brain fart, people; I was somehow convinced this had been announced in the recent Nintendo Direct. I don't have a clue what made me arrive at that conclusion except maybe mental association with Tokyo Mirage Sessions. >_<
Carry on and again sorry for the nonsense. :/

Maybe vices like alcohol aren't a good analogy

Ya think?
I find it lovely you acknowledged it was a bad analogy the second it was turned against your own argument. :D
 
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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Since clearly many people can and do consume this type of media without issue (taking those perceptions into the real world) then yeah I don't like that solution

Should 100 people pay for the 5 that can't make that separation or consume responsibly?

(Numbers from my ass obviously I'm just trying to make a point)

Some people can't control their consumption of alcohol and become alcoholics or drink and drive

Do we ban alcohol for the greater good in that case?

They tried that and it didn't work

Maybe vices like alcohol aren't a good analogy but it was the first I could think of if we are all arguing these things are bad for us
Alcohol is regulated to who can buy it, when they can buy it, and they aren't allowed to buy more if they already consumed too much. And no one here has suggested banning sexualised designs either, they just want them in titles specifically designed for that, which is what you don't want, as you want them in mainstream titles, regardless if it makes sense or suits the title or not. No one here has talked about regulation either. No one here has talked about censoring existing designs either. They are talking about future games. This isn't a censorship issue, this is people advocating for designs that don't treat them like second class citizens. You are just worried developers will heed them instead of you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Should a 100 people suffer second-hand smoke because of the 5 who refuse to smoke in private?

But people are playing these games in private...

Alcohol/drugs isn't really a good comparison here. You can't have the same approach when addressing physical health concerns and mental health/cultural normalization concerns.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
To add further to your counterpoint, games already are regulated

I'm pretty sure extremes like rape, underage characters being sexualized etc are not allowed in any game that I know of? Or atleast not rated for consumption therefore left to weird dark areas of the market just like other forms of media

It's not like the video game market is just allowed to run wild, the ESRB was formed voluntarily to avoid government intervention
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Alcohol is regulated to who can buy it, when they can buy it, and they aren't allowed to buy more if they already consumed too much. And no one here has suggested banning sexualised designs either, they just want them in titles specifically designed for that, which is what you don't want, as you want them in mainstream titles, regardless if it makes sense or suits the title or not. No one here has talked about regulation either. No one here has talked about censoring existing designs either. They are talking about future games. This isn't a censorship issue, this is people advocating for designs that don't treat them like second class citizens. You are just worried developers will heed them instead of you.

I guess it depends

Would I want it to become limited to weird Japanese visual novels and SRPGs?

Or otherwise super niche Low budget titles? No because I don't like those kinds of games from a gameplay and designs perspective

I enjoy it it mainstream stuff like MGSV and FFXV and Street Fighter 5 because it's a game I'm interested in anyways, it will have nice production levels and top end graphics, etc
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
But people are playing these games in private...

Alcohol/drugs isn't really a good comparison here. You can't have the same approach when addressing physical health concerns and mental health/cultural normalization concerns.

Ok maybe it's not a good comparison

But if we are grouping these examples of games into "things that I like and don't want to go away but I can atleast acknowledge they can potentially bring problems to the people consuming them" it was the best I could think of

I'm obviously open to better examples?
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
I guess it depends

Would I want it to become limited to weird Japanese visual novels and SRPGs?

Or otherwise super niche Low budget titles? No because I don't like those kinds of games from a gameplay and designs perspective

I enjoy it it mainstream stuff like MGSV and FFXV and Street Fighter 5 because it's a game I'm interested in anyways, it will have nice production levels and top end graphics, etc
Alot of women would like to enjoy those things too, but can't cus they've included objectified designs it in. I think you would be able to enjoy those games without that content, as the gameplay , nice production levels and top end graphics would still be there, a lot of women currently can't. You want what you want, why can't other people advocate for what they want? Specially when you admit that the content you like negatively affects other people.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
I guess it depends

Would I want it to become limited to weird Japanese visual novels and SRPGs?

Or otherwise super niche Low budget titles? No because I don't like those kinds of games from a gameplay and designs perspective

I enjoy it it mainstream stuff like MGSV and FFXV and Street Fighter 5 because it's a game I'm interested in anyways, it will have nice production levels and top end graphics, etc
Think about the other side of that, of wanting to play things you enjoy like MGSV because you like the gameplay and design or the productions levels and you have to put up with objectification being the norm in them whenever there are female characters involved.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
To add further to your counterpoint, games already are regulated

I'm pretty sure extremes like rape, underage characters being sexualized etc are not allowed in any game that I know of? Or atleast not rated for consumption therefore left to weird dark areas of the market just like other forms of media

It's not like the video game market is just allowed to run wild, the ESRB was formed voluntarily to avoid government intervention

Sexualization is mostly fine by the ESRB and several other rating boards regardless of the age of the characters.

Explicit content like straight up sex is unrated by the standard rating boards because, well, it's porn. At least in America, it's mostly anything goes in that space. Though there are some limits, though only because of gray areas and not explicit laws. A recent visual novel that released on Steam called Wonderful Everyday had its official uncensor patch remove a single CG of bestiality, but still maintained explicit sex between underage characters.

Ok maybe it's not a good comparison

But if we are grouping these examples of games into "things that I like and don't want to go away but I can atleast acknowledge they can potentially bring problems to the people consuming them" it was the best I could think of

I'm obviously open to better examples?

The examples are just media as a whole and how it affects us. Maybe you could use propaganda as an example, but even that doesn't really work because it's fantasy vs intentional conditioning in most cases.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,305
Ok I didn't know there was an example of that in senran kagura?

I have one on my vita but never noticed or paid attention to any character bios to see that

Point taken then

If I recall the internet drama correctly, the ages of the Senran Kagura cast are not included in the English versions as a compromise between one of the translators (who argued that it was of the utmost importance that the characters be underage for ~immersion reasons~) and the localization company (who argued that the characters should be aged up to all be over 18 so it was less creepy).
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,399
Alot of women would like to enjoy those things too, but can't cus they've included objectified designs it in. I think you would be able to enjoy those games without that content, as the gameplay , nice production levels and top end graphics would still be there, a lot of women currently can't. You want what you want, why can't other people advocate for what they want? Specially when you admit that the content you like negatively affects other people.
Yep, pretty much no one would say "where are my tits, Kojima??" if he hadn't included Quiet at all to begin with.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
If I recall the internet drama correctly, the ages of the Senran Kagura cast are not included in the English versions as a compromise between one of the translators (who argued that it was of the utmost importance that the characters be underage for ~immersion reasons~) and the localization company (who argued that the characters should be aged up to all be over 18 so it was less creepy).

Didn't they stop doing that recently and now include the actual ages?
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Yep, pretty much no one would say "where are my tits, Kojima??" if he hadn't included Quiet at all to begin with.
Then again would you expect a game from kojima to not include sexualized objectification? I mean i like the games but damn did was it bad for MGS 4/ Peace walker (4 for that sexy pose with the BB units and mgs PW for box of love)
Not for it, but i'd never not expect a hideo kojima game to not have some shit in it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
I really don't know, I just remember that story because the translator ended up getting banned on the old forums because he tried to argue that, like, Lisa Simpson was technically ~30 years old or something bizarre and uncomfortable like that.

Pretty sure Tom got banned for a month or so for defending idol culture because of his students. He's on Era too doing what he's always done.

Also, I don't think Tom did it for immersion reasons. He's just a free expression absolutist and a purist when it comes to keeping things intact which he won't budge on (that's why the whole KKK controversy happened).
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Then again would you expect a game from kojima to not include sexualized objectification? I mean i like the games but damn did was it bad for MGS 4/ Peace walker (4 for that sexy pose with the BB units and mgs PW for box of love)
Not for it, but i'd never not expect a hideo kojima game to not have some shit in it.
Hideo Kojima is constantly praised as one of the best developers in the industry, other devs have learnt and improved in this area, I don't really see why I can't expect him to though?
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
Hideo Kojima is constantly praised as one of the best developers in the industry, other devs have learnt and improved in this area, I don't really see why I can't expect him to though?

Because people consider him an auteur, and suggesting an auteur needs an editor or at least someone to question their creative decisions is tantamount to censorship in some peoples' eyes.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,399
Because people consider him an auteur, and suggesting an auteur needs an editor or at least someone to question their creative decisions is tantamount to censorship in some peoples' eyes.
Which is hilarious because Kojima's best works were by far when he DID have an editor around to reign him in on his nonsense. If not for that, we'd have Laughing-Tit as the supposed "one of the greatest female characters evar!!!".
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
My criticism towards sexualization is that it often contradicts to the rest of the game (or other media). It ruins the tone and messed up the narrative, and brings no gameplay value whatsoever. I see it from a strict game design angle, not a moral angle.
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
People who believe Kojima doesn't have editors and writers are deluding themselves. MGSV has a credit roll, they can see how many people actually wrote and designed the game. People act like he wrote every single line in the game when every mission has its own credits and there are some where Kojima's name isn't even listed.
 

Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
You go from
62b63fa785e4a1761e577e9e4af451ba--fantasy-characters-female-characters.jpg

to
250

and turn shipping into a game mechanic.
this makes me so depressed I actually flipped around to angry
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Fire Emblem will keep the shipping mechanic, I believe that much will be a staple since thats going to be the better lesson from awakening for my hot take (vs waifus in shitty designs). Still would like to know how Echoes did but even then it doesnt say much until the next Fire emblem comes out before we know if the sales are bad for the series and people are tired of it or if echoes was a one and done deal.
The next FE should tell us if shipping/fan service sells or if the series can do without it/the series is dead jim.
 
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A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,433
Echoes was still a degradation from the game it was remaking if you are referring to the treatment of female characters. I don't really get why it's being put on a pedestal.
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Echoes was still a degradation from the game it was remaking if you are referring to the treatment of female characters. I don't really get why it's being put on a pedestal.
probably because it wasnt as over the top as FE conquest/birthright was. I mean if you compare echoes to awakening/B&C its different enough to people whom havent played any FE outside the 3ds 2.
I admit to knowing jack shit about FE except that early designs were neat, then again i like older designs for the most part.
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
I liked the Tellius style where most of the relationships were completely platonic. Even Ike's closest "romantic undertones" were pretty vague at best, and hilariously (if I recall correctly), mostly having to do with Soren.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
I liked the Tellius style where most of the relationships were completely platonic. Even Ike's closest "romantic undertones" were pretty vague at best, and hilariously (if I recall correctly), mostly having to do with Soren.
I'm sure they were more plot-relevant, too? Whereas Awakening/Fate always seemed more "LOOK AT MY CHARACTER QUIRK! I HAVE A QUIRK! LOOK AT IT!!!"
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
People who believe Kojima doesn't have editors and writers are deluding themselves. MGSV has a credit roll, they can see how many people actually wrote and designed the game. People act like he wrote every single line in the game when every mission has its own credits and there are some where Kojima's name isn't even listed.

That's fair, I was kind of talking out of my arse on that one.
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
I'm sure they were more plot-relevant, too? Whereas Awakening/Fate always seemed more "LOOK AT MY CHARACTER QUIRK! I HAVE A QUIRK! LOOK AT IT!!!"
It's been quite a while since I played them but I believe so. I think I remember some conversations being locked until certain chapters because the characters were remarking about an event that happened, or a certain character, or they would talk about the themes of the game such as racism towards the Laguz.
 

PtM

Banned
Dec 7, 2017
3,582
Then again would you expect a game from kojima to not include sexualized objectification? I mean i like the games but damn did was it bad for MGS 4/ Peace walker (4 for that sexy pose with the BB units and mgs PW for box of love)
Not for it, but i'd never not expect a hideo kojima game to not have some shit in it.
It's on Kojima if you've come to expect things from him that you wouldn't miss.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
I'm sure they were more plot-relevant, too? Whereas Awakening/Fate always seemed more "LOOK AT MY CHARACTER QUIRK! I HAVE A QUIRK! LOOK AT IT!!!"
I will criticize the armor (or well, "armor") designs all day, but, I must disagree on the latter point.

For instance, I refuse to believe anyone actually thinks Lucius is a deeper or more interesting character than the same-archetype Libra or Forrest in spite of the two of them being admittedly even less relevant to the overarching plot than Lucius who is shamefully, imo, very underutilized. And then of course older games had so few supports that he got no further characterization outside of what we basically already knew from interactions in maps. A bit of a friendship with Serra I guess? That's it really.

I think people just don't read the support conversations in Awakening and Fates or something. They really flesh out a lot of characters, above and beyond previous games.

I also prefer characterization being delivered via supports as it means a character will never necessarily fade to irrelevance.

I do think more focus could be shifted to friendships or rivalries from romance in the next game, but I'd be horribly disappointed if they went back to a style of most characterization being in the plot, thus inevitably leaving certain characters in the dust and left to rot.

Like, seriously, outside of designs I'd take the casts of newer FE games over most FE10 and before characters any day.

That said, with Echoes, such supports are cut down on. Yet through other interactions in towns and such, they make the cast of Fire Emblem Gaiden actually feel like real, compelling characters.

I dunno. I just get really peeved when people act like the Awakening and Fates cast are nothing but tropes. Some are yeah, especially via the localization's changes (mostly a very good localization but damn did some characters get hit for the worse, poor Ryoma). But not anywhere close to all.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
I will criticize the armor (or well, "armor") designs all day, but, I must disagree on the latter point.

For instance, I refuse to believe anyone actually thinks Lucius is a deeper or more interesting character than the same-archetype Libra or Forrest in spite of the two of them being admittedly even less relevant to the overarching plot than Lucius who is shamefully, imo, very underutilized. And then of course older games had so few supports that he got no further characterization outside of what we basically already knew from interactions in maps. A bit of a friendship with Serra I guess? That's it really.

I think people just don't read the support conversations in Awakening and Fates or something. They really flesh out a lot of characters, above and beyond previous games.

I also prefer characterization being delivered via supports as it means a character will never necessarily fade to irrelevance.

I do think more focus could be shifted to friendships or rivalries from romance in the next game, but I'd be horribly disappointed if they went back to a style of most characterization being in the plot, thus inevitably leaving certain characters in the dust and left to rot.

Like, seriously, outside of designs I'd take the casts of newer FE games over most FE10 and before characters any day.

That said, with Echoes, such supports are cut down on. Yet through other interactions in towns and such, they make the cast of Fire Emblem Gaiden actually feel like real, compelling characters.

I dunno. I just get really peeved when people act like the Awakening and Fates cast are nothing but tropes. Some are yeah, especially via the localization's changes (mostly a very good localization but damn did some characters get hit for the worse, poor Ryoma). But not anywhere close to all.
TBF the thing I remember most about the Radiance supports was that it was only through them that you learned Soren was the bad guy's son. Unless I'm completely misremembering, of course.

Meanwhile, the more recent ones have always come across as painfully shallow. What's that, you're clumsy? Then let's make 80% of your support conversations about how clumsy you are!
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
I gotta admit one thing I don't like about Awakening and Fates are the character designs. Just in general. They look more tuned towards the otaku demographic.

The designs or better, the artstyle, are clearly one of the motives for why the series was able to have a better performance overall compared to it's predecessors along the option of no permadeath and the support mechanic with the relationship.

At the same time, otaku focused games are things that sell less than 20k or don't even appear at all in the rankings of famitsu or media-create so I doubt that such things had a difference in the performance of the game both in Japan and in the west for Awakening and Fates. Echoes is a different beast since it's a remake for a game that isn't a fan favorite in Japan and don't have features of both of it's predecessors that made them a success so it's not a surprise that the game didn't performed as well but we'll have the pure proof for this when FE Switch comes. And then, we'll see how it compares to the other ones or if the franchise is losing it's fuel due to constant releases since Awakening.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
TBF the thing I remember most about the Radiance supports was that it was only through them that you learned Soren was the bad guy's son. Unless I'm completely misremembering, of course.

Meanwhile, the more recent ones have always come across as painfully shallow. What's that, you're clumsy? Then let's make 80% of your support conversations about how clumsy you are!
Maybe it's just a matter of us only remembering the bad in what we're down on then and not remembering the good, because now that you brought that up... shit you're right that is pretty big. And yeah I'm pretty sure that it's only in the support you find that out. And again, I agree some of the characters in the newer ones don't have much about them (what were they thinking with Sumia???? Felicia is clumsy but it doesn't define her? Like... what was IS thinking with Sumia?), but I think overall the quality is higher. I remember more good supports than bad, anyway.

Then again, Awakening was my first real entry into the series (I played like ~3 chapters of 10 then wussed out because a few of my units died turns before the end of chapter 4, I think it was; it was like either a snowy or white tiled courtyard with a lot of mages, I think?), so maybe it's just bias. I don't know. Anyway we're getting a bit off topic here. Sorry about it if I was at all rude or anything.

The designs or better, the artstyle, are clearly one of the motives for why the series was able to have a better performance overall compared to it's predecessors along the option of no permadeath and the support mechanic with the relationship.

At the same time, otaku focused games are things that sell less than 20k or don't even appear at all in the rankings of famitsu or media-create so I doubt that such things had a difference in the performance of the game both in Japan and in the west for Awakening and Fates. Echoes is a different beast since it's a remake for a game that isn't a fan favorite in Japan and don't have features of both of it's predecessors that made them a success so it's not a surprise that the game didn't performed as well but we'll have the pure proof for this when FE Switch comes. And then, we'll see how it compares to the other ones or if the franchise is losing it's fuel due to constant releases since Awakening.
Even outside of "otaku" designs... I can see the artstyle contributing to the game being better received as I personally never was super fond of the artstyle in FE6-8. It's kinda very... bleh. 9 and 10 were better in regard to artstyle but God if I could't find 9 and I gave up on 10 because I was a weeny baby who couldn't take losing units right before a stage ended, so I just watched them. But the whole reason I even got Awakening was because of seeing designs like Lucina and Libra and Sully and such and being like "yo, these are some sick looking characters! And they're not gonna die if I fuck up? Awesome!"
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
And they're not gonna die if I fuck up? Awesome!"
This instantly makes Fire Emblem less interesting though. The real worry about characters dying gave the Fire Emblem series stakes and made battles mean something aside from just intervening in the visual novel that is the actual game.

As for the character designs... well... they've never been great (there we basically 1 or 2 standouts per game), but I think they've gotten worse - certainly more pandering than ever before, that's for damn sure (both in terms of characterization and design).
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
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Nov 11, 2017
3,831
This instantly makes Fire Emblem less interesting though. The real worry about characters dying gave the Fire Emblem series stakes and made battles mean something aside from just intervening in the visual novel that is the actual game.
I mean, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I am incredibly hesitant to play through any of the older Fire Emblems I actually have played again because I don't really cherish the thought of having one of my units die because my pea brain made a false step. It'd be like if, in Dark Souls, you got killed by a boss and pushed back to the start of an area with all the bonfires turned off. Not fun. I like challenges but they need to be encouraging- I don't find having to reset after a single mistake very encouraging at all.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,557
Maybe it's just a matter of us only remembering the bad in what we're down on then and not remembering the good, because now that you brought that up... shit you're right that is pretty big. And yeah I'm pretty sure that it's only in the support you find that out. And again, I agree some of the characters in the newer ones don't have much about them (what were they thinking with Sumia???? Felicia is clumsy but it doesn't define her? Like... what was IS thinking with Sumia?), but I think overall the quality is higher. I remember more good supports than bad, anyway.

Then again, Awakening was my first real entry into the series (I played like ~3 chapters of 10 then wussed out because a few of my units died turns before the end of chapter 4, I think it was; it was like either a snowy or white tiled courtyard with a lot of mages, I think?), so maybe it's just bias. I don't know. Anyway we're getting a bit off topic here. Sorry about it if I was at all rude or anything.

Even outside of "otaku" designs... I can see the artstyle contributing to the game being better received as I personally never was super fond of the artstyle in FE6-8. It's kinda very... bleh. 9 and 10 were better in regard to artstyle but God if I could't find 9 and I gave up on 10 because I was a weeny baby who couldn't take losing units right before a stage ended, so I just watched them. But the whole reason I even got Awakening was because of seeing designs like Lucina and Libra and Sully and such and being like "yo, these are some sick looking characters! And they're not gonna die if I fuck up? Awesome!"
In my experience the support convos in Awakening and Fates were mostly just

"Hello, I'm *Insert personality quirk here*"
"Hi! I'm *insert personality quirk here*"
"Wacky" high jinks ensues

Two conversations later*

"Let's fuck."
"K."

*If they're of the opposite gender.

I mean, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I am incredibly hesitant to play through any of the older Fire Emblems I actually have played again because I don't really cherish the thought of having one of my units die because my pea brain made a false step. It'd be like if, in Dark Souls, you got killed by a boss and pushed back to the start of an area with all the bonfires turned off. Not fun. I like challenges but they need to be encouraging- I don't find having to reset after a single mistake very encouraging at all.
You don't have to reset if you lose a unit.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
This instantly makes Fire Emblem less interesting though. The real worry about characters dying gave the Fire Emblem series stakes and made battles mean something aside from just intervening in the visual novel that is the actual game.

As for the character designs... well... they've never been great (there we basically 1 or 2 standouts per game), but I think they've gotten worse - certainly more pandering than ever before, that's for damn sure (both in terms of characterization and design).

This is an option. People can still play in permadeath and if they want, they can play without it. Not everyone wants this difficult or to lose those units forever.

That's why this mechanic was accept and why the franchise had an opening to a new public. The obligatory permadeath made this series really difficult for new players and people that don't like this thing and the change with the option altered this stigma.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
This instantly makes Fire Emblem less interesting though. The real worry about characters dying gave the Fire Emblem series stakes and made battles mean something aside from just intervening in the visual novel that is the actual game.

As for the character designs... well... they've never been great (there we basically 1 or 2 standouts per game), but I think they've gotten worse - certainly more pandering than ever before, that's for damn sure (both in terms of characterization and design).
It also assured I'd never pick up a Fire Emblem. The option to turn off perma-death was the biggest factor in me finally getting into this series.

As for characters Awakening was the first time I saw a FE game where I really liked the art style but I know I'll disagree with a lot of people in this thread over character design so I'll not go into that. I'll just say that it was another thing that made Awakening more attractive to me then previous games.
You don't have to reset if you lose a unit.

For me? Yes I do. I would hate to permentkly lose a character. Especially since I like most of the cast.

I tried playing with perma-death on, realized I kinda suck at this game, and switched to casual.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
This instantly makes Fire Emblem less interesting though. The real worry about characters dying gave the Fire Emblem series stakes and made battles mean something aside from just intervening in the visual novel that is the actual game.

As for the character designs... well... they've never been great (there we basically 1 or 2 standouts per game), but I think they've gotten worse - certainly more pandering than ever before, that's for damn sure (both in terms of characterization and design).
I like that they took perma death out actually, a lot of the time I felt cheaped out in situations and the casual mode made it a lot less stressful. As long as they keep it as an option I dont see a problem in keeping around for those who want it
 
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