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Snormy

I'll think about it
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,131
Morizora's Forest
I enjoy perma death best when you get a little bit of a leeway. Hearts in Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Ogre for example. I actually feel that the way FE sets things up is pretty poor. On one hand you want to train units and to do so they not only need to participate but get the actual kill. Then we have enemy reinforcements to worry about as well as just occasionally being dished out with bad luck. It is a real bummer when you spend 4+ maps training a unit and they they just pop because of one a mistake or some bad luck.

Maybe if death gave them injuries that permanently decreases stats gained by leveling would be a good compromise.

This is straying away from design talk though,
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
In my experience the support convos in Awakening and Fates were mostly just

"Hello, I'm *Insert personality quirk here*"
"Hi! I'm *insert personality quirk here*"
"Wacky" high jinks ensues

Two conversations later*

"Let's fuck."
"K."

*If they're of the opposite gender.
I'm not trying to invalidate your experience, it's just so weird it's so different from my own. It seemed like, with few exceptions, any new support chain always lead to fleshing out one if not both of the characters involved in some way. I'm not saying there aren't supports with no chemistry, there definitely are. But the ones that do work work far better than most of the ones from FE7 at least.
You don't have to reset if you lose a unit.
You kind of do with the kind of mindset I have. If I can save a character and I don't hate them, I will. And if that means resetting, then I feel compelled to reset. Simply carrying on with the game is not an option for me without feeling cheated or like I'm a shitty person.

This is straying away from design talk though,
Yeah, I'm sorry. I just get very defensive about Fates and particularly Awakening's characterizations because I do feel they're for the most part excellent casts- my main complaints are with the female armor designs, really.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,557
I'm not trying to invalidate your experience, it's just so weird it's so different from my own. It seemed like, with few exceptions, any new support chain always lead to fleshing out one if not both of the characters involved in some way. I'm not saying there aren't supports with no chemistry, there definitely are. But the ones that do work work far better than most of the ones from FE7 at least.
It is entirely possible that I just had shitty luck with the supports I got. I don't actively pair up my units for the supports and I don't reset if someone dies so as a result I don't see many conversations in a playthrough. It's why I really like the base conversation system from 9 & 10. I actually get to see conversations without needing to grind for them.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,131
Morizora's Forest
Yeah, I'm sorry. I just get very defensive about Fates and particularly Awakening's characterizations because I do feel they're for the most part excellent casts- my main complaints are with the female armor designs, really.
I think every entry has character designs that are pretty good. Lucina, Rinkah and Scarlet for example I think look great. We also have characters that are pretty gross. Nowi, Camilla etc.
Regarding characterizations I think the older games leaves a lot more for our own imagination to fill out. I kind of like this. Here we only have snippets still but most character has so many supports that it all adds up to a lot of bits that aren't very fulfilling. I also found some of them to be a little at odds with each other but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
To add further to your counterpoint, games already are regulated

I'm pretty sure extremes like rape, underage characters being sexualized etc are not allowed in any game that I know of? Or atleast not rated for consumption therefore left to weird dark areas of the market just like other forms of media

It's not like the video game market is just allowed to run wild, the ESRB was formed voluntarily to avoid government intervention

There are pages of regulations of what you can and cant include in a game to get a rating. Embarassing for most of us to know, but necessary for game developers.
As mentioned Sengan Kagura characters are sexualised but 3D in-game models dont include any more details. Game hacks extracted the models. Developers intended the game just for light fanserive, leaving the rest to the players imagination. There are even mods on PC that add elements like nipples and pubic hair and can even be imported back to the console version. This would make the game viable for an R rating

255738279_f5207d8862.jpg
 

SieteBlanco

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,878
Talking of sexualization in media being harmful in the real world as a fully proven done deal hypothesis, as if it was the law of gravity, while arguing against the effects of the representation of violence is hilariously hypocritical; the studies for both have the same methodology and are funded and supported by the same organizations.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Talking of sexualization in media being harmful in the real world as a fully proven done deal hypothesis, as if it was the law of gravity, while arguing against the effects of the representation of violence is hilariously hypocritical; the studies for both have the same methodology and are funded and supported by the same organizations.

Considering these studies have in fact proven once and again that sexualization does, in fact, affect people much more than depiction of violence does, where exactly is the hypocrisy? Also, where does the assumption that people here are defending violence in videogames come from? All of this has been discussed ad nauseam throughout the thread; your drive-by whataboutist attempt at a moral gotcha is not only spurious, but trite as well.
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,378
Talking of sexualization in media being harmful in the real world as a fully proven done deal hypothesis, as if it was the law of gravity, while arguing against the effects of the representation of violence is hilariously hypocritical; the studies for both have the same methodology and are funded and supported by the same organizations.
We already had a thread on this a while back and plenty of posters explained why this is a disingenuous argument.

Funny enough the OP who proposed the "question" didn't have the best of intentions.
 

SieteBlanco

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,878
We already had a thread on this a while back and plenty of posters explained why this is a disingenuous argument.

I don't think you should understood my point, though. I'm not talking about the argument itself, I'm talking about treating research that has been made on it as scientific fact on one and as "bullshit" on the other. Posters pretend that the debate on violence in mass media is a done deal when it's really not even close to it.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Problem with most Fire Emblem games regarding characterization has everything to do with build up and payoff. It's writing 101, and the problem with most relationship-building in the games is that it's, well, facile. That problem is only compounded due to the dearth of characters and in some cases, a lack of time to build anything up.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I don't think you should understood my point, though. I'm not talking about the argument itself, I'm talking about treating research that has been made on it as scientific fact on one and as "bullshit" on the other. Posters pretend that the debate on violence in mass media is a done deal when it's really not even close to it.
If you want to talk about how violence is corrupting our youth, make a thread for it. This isn't the thread for you to throw out your half-baked theories about it.
 

SieteBlanco

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,878
If you want to talk about how violence is corrupting our youth, make a thread for it. This isn't the thread for you to throw out your half-baked theories about it.

Please read my post carefully. I didn't make any point about violence in mass media, I used it to point out that you can't simply make up a consensus on statistical research only when it fits your argument.

Saying that "sexualization in mass media has more effect on the real world than violence in mass media" is scientific fact is either a complete misunderstanding of social sciences or deliberately disingenuous. There is no consensus one way or another.

Shouldn't making media, whichever it is, more accessible and welcoming be a good enough argument? Or giving people that don't normally have a voice a voice by putting woman in creative positions?
 

Gio

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
837
Manila
It also assured I'd never pick up a Fire Emblem. The option to turn off perma-death was the biggest factor in me finally getting into this series.

As for characters Awakening was the first time I saw a FE game where I really liked the art style but I know I'll disagree with a lot of people in this thread over character design so I'll not go into that. I'll just say that it was another thing that made Awakening more attractive to me then previous games.


For me? Yes I do. I would hate to permentkly lose a character. Especially since I like most of the cast.

I tried playing with perma-death on, realized I kinda suck at this game, and switched to casual.
I like that they took perma death out actually, a lot of the time I felt cheaped out in situations and the casual mode made it a lot less stressful. As long as they keep it as an option I dont see a problem in keeping around for those who want it
Same, y'all. If permadeath wasn't optional I would've just restarted anyway. Btw, how do I know you two aren't the most obvious alts? Lol.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Please read my post carefully. I didn't make any point about violence in mass media, I used it to point out that you can't simply make up a consensus on statistical research only when it fits your argument.

Saying that "sexualization in mass media has more effect on the real world than violence in mass media" is scientific fact is either a complete misunderstanding of social sciences or deliberately disingenuous. There is no consensus one way or another.

Are you talking about an argument you actually saw in this thread? I'm having trouble tracking your point.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,403
Someone did... around 10 pages back. And it was a really nonchalant incidental comment. My bad. I should have quoted the specific post and made sure my reply wasn't already outdated.
It's good that you realize your mistake. I expect you to not make inflammatory drive-bys in the future, then.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid

everyer

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,242
interesting that all of the time there are male players speaking like they are female players, or pretend to speak for female players.
like what Polygon comment for the Last of Us 2 is too dark for hurting woman and children..

Come on....if male and female are equal, as we female players also play a lot of games that kill hundreds or thousands of male characters. Why can't female characters been hurt?

and when can they stop to do such things like " I think it will be good to you "
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
We already had a thread on this a while back and plenty of posters explained why this is a disingenuous argument.

Funny enough the OP who proposed the "question" didn't have the best of intentions.

A shocking twist if there was one. Who could have ever guessed that "you complain about sexism, what about violence?" would be anything but a genuine and heartfelt plea for game developers to tone down violence?

(I'm similarly still reeling in shock that "you trust studies about the effect of sexism, what about studies about the effects of violence?" wasn't quite a plea to trust the results of studies about violence).
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Only tangentially related to the thread (although it is technically about apparel and princesses...) but I think I've found a new worst gaming t-shirt yet. While I could happily bang on at tedious length about it's terribly aggressive messaging, awful typography, spacing, etc etc, I think what struck me first was that for someone that thinks it's unimaginative to be called a 'gamer', the disclaimer above it is too small to be read by a viewer, making the whole shitty thing a touch counter productive.

Also five of the seven characters are recognisable NES sprites, so why isn't Link...

Xr0Hg5.jpeg
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
Only tangentially related to the thread (although it is technically about apparel and princesses...) but I think I've found a new worst gaming t-shirt yet. While I could happily bang on at tedious length about it's terribly aggressive messaging, awful typography, spacing, etc etc, I think what struck me first was that for someone that thinks it's unimaginative to be called a 'gamer', the disclaimer above it is too small to be read by a viewer, making the whole shitty thing a touch counter productive.

Also five of the seven characters are recognisable NES sprites, so why isn't Link...

Xr0Hg5.jpeg

If it's any consolation that is almost certainly photoshopped. You can see under the P of leadership the shirt folds but the design is still flat.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,420
The English Wilderness
Only tangentially related to the thread (although it is technically about apparel and princesses...) but I think I've found a new worst gaming t-shirt yet. While I could happily bang on at tedious length about it's terribly aggressive messaging, awful typography, spacing, etc etc, I think what struck me first was that for someone that thinks it's unimaginative to be called a 'gamer', the disclaimer above it is too small to be read by a viewer, making the whole shitty thing a touch counter productive.

Also five of the seven characters are recognisable NES sprites, so why isn't Link...

Xr0Hg5.jpeg
Personally, I'd call you "Incredibly Insecure".
 
Oct 31, 2017
669
I think she means the last one here
Brigitte-skin-preview.png
I don't think cherry picking elements like these in games like Overwatch is healthy for the conversation, when judging a game like Overwatch with dozens of different characters for its sexualization it should be viewed in its entirety, because that's the whole point, sexualization isn't bad on its own, it's bad when it's not properly balanced between males and females and I think Overwatch does an exceptionally good job in this regard.

Yes it occasionally make use of boob armor and I could argue that that's not the only ridiculous or unrealistic armor design choice in the game that's only aimed at accentuating physical features(like reinhardt shoulder pads or genji's pecs plates), but the point I want to make is that males are sexualized quite a bit too, just take the game's fixation with showcasing male nipples with a few examples here:
589px-Doomfist_Skin_Classic.png
600px-Genji_Skin_Blackwatch.png
600px-Hanzo_Skin_Classic.png

there are other examples of sexualization like swim trunks mccree and junkrat, the daddy skin or the super tight daredevil skin for soldier 76, the capoeira skin for lucio and just the fact that some male characters are pretty much always shirtless or almost naked in almost all their skins like junkrat, doomfist and roadhog
and if you look at the cast overall with their default skins males show a similar amount of skin as females.

There are tons of arguments to be made about female sexualizations in videogames like 274 pages of this thread demonstrate but I think it's most important to not cherry pick and to analyse specific games in their entirety.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I don't even play Overwatch I just posted that pic because I saw someone (Nibel?) retweeting a redesing of that armor on Twitter earlier and I recognized what Platy said lol

But I gonna disagree with the notion that talking about these small things isn't healthy for the conversation, especially considering how different the sexualization of both genders can be.
But, as I said, I don't even know half of the characters of Overwatch so...
 
Oct 31, 2017
669
I don't even play Overwatch I just posted that pic because I saw someone (Nibel?) retweeting a redesing of that armor on Twitter earlier and I recognized what Platy said lol

But I gonna disagree with the notion that talking about these small things isn't healthy for the conversation, especially considering how different the sexualization of both genders can be.
But, as I said, I don't even know half of the characters of Overwatch so...
talking about small things is fine, but imo it needs to be in context, that's my whole point. And also I think sexualization between genders is necessarily different because of unavoidable anatomical and biological differences so of course the approach in design is going to be different.
 
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Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,715
Brazil
"it's bad when it's not properly balanced between males and females"

GAMING is not balanced. Having a gaming being balanced helps nothing on this because it does not balance the industry.
And Overwatch is not balanced because of how those things work differently because of how society operates is very different a man without a shirt and a woman with a skirt

I see the difference but if all characters have multiple options and it's not the default, that doesn't seem that bad

You can also say that it is the one they hope increase the sales of lootboxes....
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
You can also say that it is the one they hope increase the sales of lootboxes....
I dont think you cam say that, those skins are relatively cheap coin wise and available 24/7. Where overwatch pushes their lootboxes is timed events where you have to wait a whole year until you can try to get them again. This will probably not sell anyone on a single lootbox and I really dont think its that sexualized for the sake of sexualization, people complain a lot about legendaries when they arent too different from the base (mei christmas skin was torn apart even though it had a new costume and the freeze was different). They probably wanted to change it to something else and this is what they landed on, the other legendary is more in line with her regular look too.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
It never fails to crack me up that the dude whose contribution is the most basic, overused and pathetic attempt at a gotcha is the one that believes his argument is so novel and complex that it must surely be lost on everyone else. :D

You need to relax, dude. He apologized for mispeaking just as you did earlier. No need to be abrasive about it.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,585
ounym.gif

As much as I enjoy Overwatch being criticized, I do think this is pretty much nothing all considered. Yes it's a boob armor, but I don't see really any blatant sexualization or objectifying going on. And it's not the norm for the character either.
Oh It's not a sexualization problem.

It's just dumb. Boob armor is dumb for reasons stated earlier.

It's dumb in the same way that this is dumb

main-qimg-908f5163eaca0d1dfa23c5a88a71f06b.webp
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
sexualization isn't bad on its own, it's bad when it's not properly balanced between males and females

I see this point come up a lot in these discussions, and I strongly disagree with it. I'm not talking about Overwatch here (I don't play it), but about sexual objectification across all media.

In a way, objectification is sort of a problem of "balance", with the scales being heavily tipped toward objectifying women. But it's almost a useless thing to bring up, because no amount of games putting in a few shirtless men is going to make that scale balance out. There are literal centuries of objectifying women behind us. Societally, women are literally seen as having more sexualized bodies than men. You can see it earlier in the thread when a lot of male posters didn't understand what a sexy man would look like. It's even in your post here, to a degree:
And also I think sexualization between genders is necessarily different because of unavoidable anatomical and biological differences so of course the approach in design is going to be different.

Is it really different because of anatomical differences or because we've decided more body parts on women are sexualized than on men? What if we had centuries of objectifying men's knees instead of women's breasts, for example? Then maybe no male game characters would be wearing shorts.

There's nothing inherent to our biology that's made us sexualize women in a different way. It's culture. (A whole lot of different cultures, and they don't all objectify in the same ways.)

Having a shirtless male game character or even one who's sexed up similarly to a female character, straight up does not have the same context. The latter even comes across as absurd or funny to many people, because it really isn't how we normally see men. There is no "equality" or "balance" achievable here. Maybe many, many, many years in the future if we start objectifying men en masse in media, but I'd prefer we didn't. It's dehumanizing and yes, an issue all on its own.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Oh It's not a sexualization problem.

It's just dumb. Boob armor is dumb for reasons stated earlier.

It's dumb in the same way that this is dumb

main-qimg-908f5163eaca0d1dfa23c5a88a71f06b.webp
Aah sure but such sillyness doesn't feel that out of place in Overwatch. Do they have such armor for a male at all? Genji maybe?

Edit: On a second thought, such armor you linked represents physical fitness and strenght. That boob armor does none of that.
 
Oct 31, 2017
669
I see this point come up a lot in these discussions, and I strongly disagree with it. I'm not talking about Overwatch here (I don't play it), but about sexual objectification across all media.

In a way, objectification is sort of a problem of "balance", with the scales being heavily tipped toward objectifying women. But it's almost a useless thing to bring up, because no amount of games putting in a few shirtless men is going to make that scale balance out. There are literal centuries of objectifying women behind us. Societally, women are literally seen as having more sexualized bodies than men. You can see it earlier in the thread when a lot of male posters didn't understand what a sexy man would look like. It's even in your post here, to a degree:


Is it really different because of anatomical differences or because we've decided more body parts on women are sexualized than on men? What if we had centuries of objectifying men's knees instead of women's breasts, for example? Then maybe no male game characters would be wearing shorts.

There's nothing inherent to our biology that's made us sexualize women in a different way. It's culture. (A whole lot of different cultures, and they don't all objectify in the same ways.)

Having a shirtless male game character or even one who's sexed up similarly to a female character, straight up does not have the same context. The latter even comes across as absurd or funny to many people, because it really isn't how we normally see men. There is no "equality" or "balance" achievable here. Maybe many, many, many years in the future if we start objectifying men en masse in media, but I'd prefer we didn't. It's dehumanizing and yes, an issue all on its own.
I have to disagree with your argument that it's only culture and that anatomical importance has nothing to do with it. I'm going to give a few example for why I think this is:

Female Butts vs Male Butts
from an anatomical and evolutionary standpoint a good pelvic size supposedly gave women a better chance of surviving childbirth and/or cause less trauma to the baby, this has been true until very recently when caesarean sections have become safe to perform, so for a very long time a certain hip/butt size became associated with better survival and as a consequence it became a major element of sexual attractions.

male butts on the other end have no direct association with better survival, a more toned butt(but muscular fitness in general) might have showcased more physical prowess that in ancient times could have led to a better survival of the family but throughout the centuries male physical presence has lost a lot of the indispensable value that it once had since it was no longer necessary for a good outcome and so it lost a lot of relevance in its role of sexual attraction.


Female Chest vs Male Chest
again from an anatomical and evolutionary standpoint when women breastfeed their breast grow in size so bigger breasts have been associated with more milk and a better survival of the newborns, and because milk productions from the breast have such a crucial role in the babies' health the role of breasts in sexual attraction gained significant importance, an importance that it's still relevant today as not even baby formula can be a 100% comparable substitute for the mother's breast milk.

Males chest size on the other hand have no direct or crucial impact on the health and wellbeing of the baby, this has been true of male physical fitness for a long long time now and it contributed to males having less defined sexual features than females. That's not to say that males don't have sexual features of course, but they are different and overall more generic and more susceptible to subjectivity, for example there is no strong widespread equivalent in the female world to expressions like "ass man" or a "boob man" because evolutionarily speaking no singular male physical feature has been deemed as important as females butts and boobs, as they could(and still can) have an impact on birth and survival of new generations.

So in conclusion I do believe that society and culture did have an impact but physical and biological differences and their role in procreation and evolution also had a prime role in all of this.
 
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kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I have to disagree with your argument that it's only culture and that anatomical importance has nothing to do with it. I'm going to give a few example for why I think this is:

Female Butts vs Male Butts
from an anatomical and evolutionary standpoint a good pelvic size supposedly gave women a better chance of surviving childbirth and/or cause less trauma to the baby, this has been true until very recently when caesarean sections have become safe to perform, so for a very long time a certain hip/butt size became associated with better survival and as a consequence it became a major element of sexual attractions.

male butts on the other end have no direct association with better survival, a more toned butt(but muscular fitness in general) might have showcased more physical prowess that in ancient times could have led to a better survival of the family but throughout the centuries male physical presence has lost a lot of the indispensable value that it once had since it was no longer necessary for a good outcome and so it lost a lot of relevance in its role of sexual attraction.


Female Chest vs Male Chest
again from an anatomical and evolutionary standpoint when women breastfeed their breast grow in size so bigger breasts have been associated with more milk and a better survival of the newborns, and because milk productions from the breast have such a crucial role in the babies' health the role of breasts in sexual attraction gained significant importance, an importance that it's still relevant today as not even baby formula can be a 100% comparable substitute for the mother's breast milk.

Males chest size on the other hand have no direct or crucial impact on the health and wellbeing of the baby, this has been true of male physical fitness for a long long time now and it contributed to males having less defined sexual features than females. That's not to say that males don't have sexual features of course, but they are different and overall more generic and more susceptible to subjectivity, for example there is no hard equivalent in the female world to an "ass man" or a "boob man" because evolutionarily speaking no singular male physical feature has been deemed as important as females butts and boobs, as they could(and still can) have an impact on birth and survival of new generations.

So in conclusion I do believe that society and culture did have an impact but physical and biological differences and their role in procreation and evolution also had a prime role in all of this.

This is all nonsense that you either made up or read in some BS evopsych article.

I find men's butts and chests attractive. There are actual people who are sexually attracted to men and like to look at them. Men are not less sexually desirable than women or 'more generic' whatever that means.

The size of a woman's breasts has NOTHING to do with how much milk she can produce. Zippo.

I've seen all these points before and they're yawn-worthy. Some of you seriously act like you go out there and assess a woman's fertility by measuring her hips. Beauty standards have changed all throughout human society and aren't the same across cultures either. They're influenced by wealth, social position, racism, upbringing, all sorts of cultural things.
 
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