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killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
He wouldn't have won the leadership if they used first past the post though
Considering that a change in voting system also causes a change in voting behaviour, it's very wrong to say that the outcome of a FPTP ballot would absolutely have the same result as the first-ballot result from the preferential ballot system that was used. When you only get one pick over the entire process, your decision making changes.
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
Most progressives realize that civil rights are not permanent in of themselves outside of those protected by the Charter or legal precedent, the latter of which has the possibility of being challenged and overruled in a future court verdict. As an example, one of the genuinely good things that Wynne's government did (technically it was proposed by an NDP MPP but I digress) was pass legislation banning conversion therapy in Ontario. While that is fantastic, there is nothing to prevent a Ford-led majority from automatically repealing it and thus making that torture legal again or bringing back the abortion debate, the latter of which is entirely possible given Doug Ford's previous comments and the support he's received from Ontario's religious right as a result of the debate over sex-ed. Put another way, the following are among several policies that on June's ballot:
-Universal Income
-The $15 wage
-Public transportation
-Global warming (The carbon tax)
-Further privatization of public utilities
-Indigenous rights and relations
-Opioid epidemic
-The general perception of Ontario as a good place to start one's business with a guy who tells the parents of an autistic child to "go to hell" and accuses them of being a jihad

All of these will be substantially affected with a Ford-led majority government since I sincerely doubt we'll see Doug continuing to make strides towards implementing a UBI program in Ontario or do anything to combat the opioid epidemic. There's a lot for one to consider when voting in the next election, especially if one lives in a highly competitive riding.

LOL. don't forget pharmacare. This could either be pared back or eliminated altogether. Not to mention the rollout and handling of the marijuana file. Though you'd think he'd be all for that. There are a lot of popular stuff on the ballot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
319
Ottawa, Canada
He wouldn't have won the leadership if they used first past the post though

If only there was a term to describe how he won the leadership. Something to do with his points being representative of his proportion of the vote...

Most progressives realize that civil rights are not permanent in of themselves outside of those protected by the Charter or legal precedent, the latter of which has the possibility of being challenged and overruled in a future court verdict. ...

There's a lot for one to consider when voting in the next election, especially if one lives in a highly competitive riding.

...okay? None of that excuses how defeatist so many theoretically progressive people have been over the last day and a half. Like I said, it's pretty pathetic for so many people to bring conceding the election before a single vote has been cast.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto
If only there was a term to describe how he won the leadership. Something to do with his points being representative of his proportion of the vote...

Sure their system was "proportional". But it's such a bullshit implementation that it throws out population densities and makes a riding of 100 equal to a riding of 100,000. The percentages are simply off.

Besides PR is always a stupid choise for a vote when you are only electing a single person because you are forced to come up with these stupid abstractions since you can't redistribute properly

...okay? None of that excuses how defeatist so many theoretically progressive people have been over the last day and a half. Like I said, it's pretty pathetic for so many people to bring conceding the election before a single vote has been cast.

Its not like we don't have a reason to be defeatist. Literally everything from looking to the popularity of the current government to the current world geopolitical climate is pointing at Ford winning.
 

Prax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,755
...okay? None of that excuses how defeatist so many theoretically progressive people have been over the last day and a half. Like I said, it's pretty pathetic for so many people to bring conceding the election before a single vote has been cast.
I think it's a defense mechanism for disappointment. Won't feel their efforts on hoping for better were wasted, etc.

I always hope that an idiot like Doug "won't be as bad as I thought" but I defintiely still have resentment for people who fall for his bullshit or whatever bs they can think of about how "corrupt" Wynne is or whatever when the OLP have been trying to establish so many good or important programs lately.
I also hoped Harper would just be a lame duck but he caused a lot of serious damage everywhere, but such a large segment or people are either incredibly short-sighted or selfish or delusional or all of that, so it's hard to keep moving forward.

I hope Wynne and the OLP have some really goo media personel to get the narrative right. That matters a lot of capturing the bright-eyed youth vote that can change the direction of everything.
 

bremon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,877
You say defeatist, we say realist.
This. I worry about the very real possibility of being dragged kicking and screaming towards the Stone Age. I live in Alberta. My provincial vote matters, my federal vote doesn't. I push positivity towards voting and the consequences of different choices on those around me. The people in this thread are the "lucky" ones who get to hear the political doubts and despair I don't necessarily voice in day to day interactions lol.

I hope for the best. I try to work towards what I see as being the optimal outcome. I expect the worst.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,889
...okay? None of that excuses how defeatist so many theoretically progressive people have been over the last day and a half. Like I said, it's pretty pathetic for so many people to bring conceding the election before a single vote has been cast.

I'll call it realism myself not defeatism.

Backlash against Wynne is strong and NDP is practically invisible.

It feels like a (lack of) Common Sense Revolution is coming and Ford can do as much damage if not more than Harris.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
Kenney's speech at the OPC leadership convention is now being criticized.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/03/11/jason-kenney-gender-neutral-jab-ontario-pc_a_23382791/

Do not know why the OPC invited him to speak.
it's ironic that they call themselves anti-establishment but they invite one of the most establishment tenors of Canadians conservatism.
+ Kenny is further Right Wing and erased the Progressive label off of Alberta's right wing party.
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
Well for now. It's just the conservative party of ontario.

Being from ottawa we're a city of prudes so i'm hoping at least my city will come to its senses. The electoral map seem to favor elliot over ford for the leadership race so hopefully we'll make a sane choice. I have my doubts in the suburbs though.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto
Well for now. It's just the conservative party of ontario.

Being from ottawa we're a city of prudes so i'm hoping at least my city will come to its senses. The electoral map seem to favor elliot over ford for the leadership race so hopefully we'll make a sane choice. I have my doubts in the suburbs though.

Orleans did vote Ford. But thats the only part of Ottawa that actually fell for the guy.

I'm just hoping that my hometown of Windsor doesn't lose its mind and vote for Ford. They just need to stay the course and vote the NDP in again and we can deprive him of 3 more seats that he won in the leadership
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
Trudeau learning his lesson quick,
he's at a joint press conference with Premier Couillard in the Saguenay at a Rio Tinto aluminum mill talking about steel, aluminum and trade
 

mo60

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,198
Edmonton, Alberta
Orleans did vote Ford. But thats the only part of Ottawa that actually fell for the guy.

I'm just hoping that my hometown of Windsor doesn't lose its mind and vote for Ford. They just need to stay the course and vote the NDP in again and we can deprive him of 3 more seats that he won in the leadership
The ONDP is likely going to keep all the windsor area ridings they have right now. Their margin of victory was quite high in almost all of them in 2014. They will have to worry about a few ridings in places like kitchener going to the OPC.
 
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Silex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,754
Orleans did vote Ford. But thats the only part of Ottawa that actually fell for the guy.

I'm just hoping that my hometown of Windsor doesn't lose its mind and vote for Ford. They just need to stay the course and vote the NDP in again and we can deprive him of 3 more seats that he won in the leadership
I live in Orleans and I can't say I'm not surprised that Ford won here. However, one needs to keep in mind that this was only among Conservative members here. As a whole, the riding is very moderate, which will be interesting to if a coalition forms to keep Ford out or if the discontent for Wynne is too strong to overcome. Alas, historically, Orléans seems to always vote in a member of the winning party, so keep an eye on that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,443
Best case and very possible scenario: Wynne does well during the first debate and Ford metaphorically or even literally shits his pants, and the PC support implodes. The upside to him is he's not very charismatic, he doesn't know anything, and he generally comes across on TV like someone who should be bullying Marty McFly.
 

Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,567
Orleans did vote Ford. But thats the only part of Ottawa that actually fell for the guy.

I'm just hoping that my hometown of Windsor doesn't lose its mind and vote for Ford. They just need to stay the course and vote the NDP in again and we can deprive him of 3 more seats that he won in the leadership
I'm saddened to know that my hometown will almost certainly be Ford Country, given how its voted provincially all the years I lived there and since. Toby Barrett is an institution in that area, much to my and my parents dismay
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,020
I'll call it realism myself not defeatism.

Backlash against Wynne is strong and NDP is practically invisible.

It feels like a (lack of) Common Sense Revolution is coming and Ford can do as much damage if not more than Harris.

TBF, the realism around Ontario politics -- federal or provincial -- is that the province itself isn't actually that progressive outside of the metro areas. Much of the province switches between Liberals and Conservatives at the drop of a hat.

That's why the Hydro One issue is the deciding factor of this election. It effectively wiped out support for the OLP because of the unreasonable power and transmission costs in outlying ridings.


Having said all that, whether these voters will vote for the PCs with Ford at the helm is another question altogether.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,085
Why did Wynne privatize part of Hydro One? What was she hoping to gain from that? Conservative votes?
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,428
Why did Wynne privatize part of Hydro One? What was she hoping to gain from that? Conservative votes?

She needed money for new spending but didn't want to raise taxes.

Also liberals and conservatives are ideologically in favour of privatization of government assets in general (see also: Trudeau's Infrastructure Bank), so it was probably something a lot of the caucus and supporters wanted anyway.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,085
She needed money for new spending but didn't want to raise taxes.

Also liberals and conservatives are ideologically in favour of privatization of government assets in general (see also: Trudeau's Infrastructure Bank), so it was probably something a lot of the caucus and supporters wanted anyway.
fucking liberals
 
OP
OP
Caz

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
If we're talking best-case scenario, the only thing that can substantially change this election is one or a combination of the following:
-(More of) Ford's skeletons come out of the closet (Likely)
-Wynne resigns and a new leader for the OLP is elected (Unlikely given how little time there is between now and the election)
-Horwath does so well at the debates that all the anti-Wynne voters rally behind the NDP (Highly unlikely)

Also: Called it! https://globalnews.ca/news/4077129/doug-ford-policy-platform-big-issues/
Sex education
Ford has also been clear on this policy issue, and on Monday he reiterated a promise to first repeal, and then review, Ontario's new sex education curriculum. The pledge is an important one among the party's social conservatives.

Vote wisely in June, friends.
 
Oct 25, 2017
27,856
If these people don't like it they can send their kids to religious school that doesn't teach sex-ed or get them excused from sex-ed and then be shocked when they google stuff anyway
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,428
Obviously kids should learn about sex the way that I did, via random porn magazines found in the forest.
 
Oct 25, 2017
27,856
The parade of people on CBC news praising Doug and Rob Ford as men of the people and good people is nauseating, they really need to ask them why they believe that and ask for specific examples,

One even said Doug made more time for regular people than Rob did which is an absolutely insane thing to say

But watching the news and knowing stuff makes me an elite I guess
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
Someone said it best in my opinion. Wynne has to make it about policy rather than personality. If she can get people to buy into "liberal" policies and not tether herself to the policies, it might lead to at least an OPC minority.

Obviously kids should learn about sex the way that I did, via random porn magazines found in the forest.

Pfft, do what i do; the internet was barely born when I came of age and it was easy to find "sex-ed" material online. Now all you need to do is scroll under r/all in reddit and you can get hooked up easily.

It's funny. Finding porn on the net is like finding weed supply in Canada.

The parade of people on CBC news praising Doug and Rob Ford as men of the people and good people is nauseating, they really need to ask them why they believe that and ask for specific examples,

One even said Doug made more time for regular people than Rob did which is an absolutely insane thing to say

But watching the news and knowing stuff makes me an elite I guess

LOL. You Laurentian elites will rue the day! RUE!
 

Holmes

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,344
You know I left Ontario right after the whole sex ed thing was announced, I can't believe it's still being talked about years later.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,020
She needed money for new spending but didn't want to raise taxes.

Also liberals and conservatives are ideologically in favour of privatization of government assets in general (see also: Trudeau's Infrastructure Bank), so it was probably something a lot of the caucus and supporters wanted anyway.

Yeah, neo-liberalism is extremely toxic to government policy. As much as the liberals -- provincially, federally, wherever -- tout themselves as progressive beacons, a lot of the policies really fall short of that ideal.

A lot of that, I think, has to do with the 'social license' they attempt to create, or to put it another way, to garner popular support with socially progressive ideas while simultaneously sliding in questionable policies.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto
I am horrified that kids are going to be subjected to the idiots of this party. I seriously hope that teachers just roll their eyes and continue with the current curriculum. I mean, It's not like they are barred from teaching more than the bare minimum
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,301
Media want Ford to win really really bad. They know they will get clicks or sell newspaper (in 2018, no less) because of his crazy antics and faux pas. They are already publishing columns and editorials about how he's not as bad as Trump or that it's actually possible for him to win. Step 1 : Normalize him.

After all he's such a nice guy and not racist at all.

The hilarious thing is that a conservative party actually voted for a low level criminal as their leader. You would think people against abortion, still into religious schools in 2018 and against sex ed would be offended having a petty criminal as a leader.

Trudeau learning his lesson quick,
he's at a joint press conference with Premier Couillard in the Saguenay at a Rio Tinto aluminum mill talking about steel, aluminum and trade

His foreign affairs friends don't seem to.
 

djkimothy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,456
Media want Ford to win really really bad. They know they will get clicks or sell newspaper (in 2018, no less) because of his crazy antics and faux pas. They are already publishing columns and editorials about how he's not as bad as Trump or that it's actually possible for him to win. Step 1 : Normalize him.

After all he's such a nice guy and not racist at all.

The hilarious thing is that a conservative party actually voted for a low level criminal as their leader. You would think people against abortion, still into religious schools in 2018 and against sex ed would be offended having a petty criminal as a leader.



His foreign affairs friends don't seem to.

The print media can only sell papers if either there's a horse race of an election or through scandal and controversies. As in election 16, the bar will be impossibly high for the two female candidates and laughably low for one. Plus they seem to be salivating for a populist wave in Canada as if it's a needed thing for our country right now. Much of the media is usually right leaning anyways since PostMedia owns many local papers. I mean, look at election 2015 and how many papers endorsed Harper... Even after Nigel Wright affair most, other than TorStar, endorsed the CPC.

With respect to the flag gaff. I'm sure this was committed by a low level staffer on temp or something. At least it wasn't wide spread, the ambassador on PnP didn't seem to make a big deal of it though. Not that he would since he is a diplomat.
 

Nay

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
602
It would be so wonderful if the people of Ontario would just get past the stigma of voting for the NDP and let them govern.
 
OP
OP
Caz

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
Media want Ford to win really really bad. They know they will get clicks or sell newspaper (in 2018, no less) because of his crazy antics and faux pas. They are already publishing columns and editorials about how he's not as bad as Trump or that it's actually possible for him to win. Step 1 : Normalize him.
It hasn't even been a week and they're pulling this.
...This is going to be a long four months. On the plus side, that video I did on Leitch is relevant again.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,889
Media want Ford to win really really bad. They know they will get clicks or sell newspaper (in 2018, no less) because of his crazy antics and faux pas. They are already publishing columns and editorials about how he's not as bad as Trump or that it's actually possible for him to win. Step 1 : Normalize him.

What a giant pile of shit:

However, there are also big differences between Mr. Ford and Mr. Harris. For one, the Harris government largely steered clear of social conservatism, preferring to focus its efforts on tax cuts and spending cuts.

Mr. Ford, however, wants to reopen the province's sex-ed curriculum and has murmured sympathetically to anti-abortion activists.

Then there is the environment. The Harris Conservatives expanded protected lands and began shutting down coal-fired power stations. Mr. Ford has vowed to scrap the provincial carbon tax that aims to combat global warming.

He's actually worse than Harris and they're proud of it.

These people need to shot from a cannon into Lake Ontario.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,806
Canada
I've a friend who is generally liberal but for some reason is a huge stan for the Fords, talks about how Rob is "anti establishment" or some vanguard against the nefarious elite, and likewise states he'l vote for Doug for the same reason.

How do I cure these people of their delusions, because I don't think its some meme among the politically uneducated anymore- rational, generally centrist and even left-leaning people out there actually think the Fords are the heroes of the working class everyday folk.
 
OP
OP
Caz

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
I've a friend who is generally liberal but for some reason is a huge stan for the Fords, talks about how Rob is "anti establishment" or some vanguard against the nefarious elite, and likewise states he'l vote for Doug for the same reason.

How do I cure these people of their delusions, because I don't think its some meme among the politically uneducated anymore- rational, generally centrist and even left-leaning people out there actually think the Fords are the heroes of the working class everyday folk.
Show them the stories of how Rob screwed up Toronto's transit (and cost taxpayers millions), how Doug told the father of an autistic child to go to hell and that Doug wants to resurrect the abortion debate.
 
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