ill agree that The exact same piece will not work the same for men at women, but
yo, what happened to the Hide option??
yo, what happened to the Hide option??
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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ill agree that The exact same piece will not work the same for men at women, but
yo, what happened to the Hide option??
See the problem with that is that it's not seen the same as it is as if it would be on a woman. I'd go as far as to say that each of those examples are done for comedic effect rather than sexiness, which is another societal problem. The overt extremes for women do no directly equate for men. It's why stuff like this:
or this
Aren't taken seriously and are done for laughs.
Men in speedos will never have the same sexual effect as a woman in a bikini, for better or worse.
You can't just take the tropes and flip them and expect them to have the same effect. You have to put time and thought into design, something that doesn't happen all that much when it comes to male video game characters in general.
They kinda are, but not in majority of the games mainstream gaming will care about, and most of the time done for female otaku's tastes.
I sincerely hope you're joking. Do you honestly believe that male characters who are "more designed" (whatever this means) intend to appeal to female otaku tastes?
I would say, even in this current surge of otome games, they're far from the norm.
But there are more than a few games out there that could at least stand to crib a few notes from them.
No I'm saying that there are games that are deliberately designed to female otaku's taste.
There's a market there that's fairly sizable (mobile otome games can get pretty big for example) but it's not mainstream.
Sure, but there are orders of magnitude in terms of difference between those games and all other games. And regardless of their scale, it doesn't excuse the treatment women receive in mainstream games.
It's such a dumb idea that somehow by having media that appeals specifically to females that it "balances out" the shitty treatment in all other similar media. It doesn't.
Women have a history literally spanning thousands of years of shitty treatment. That's not balanced out by simply having a few games that appeal to them, regardless of popularity.
I'm not really advocating that, though I can see how my lack of clarity might make it seem that way. My original point was that there is thought put into what is actually sexually attractive for women in male characters designs, but I should have clarified that it's to show how different it is compared to just putting that the same sexual themes used for female designs.
My bad because I thought that was the general theme of the discussion.
It would need to be this type of costume:
with this type of pose:
and this type of camera angle:
And even then it would never be even. All these designs are ugly and stupid. And my only satisfaction would be is to watch some verity and to see the hypocrites rage.
with this type of pose:
and this type of camera angle:
And even then it would never be even. All these designs are ugly and stupid. And my only satisfaction would be is to watch some verity and to see the hypocrites rage.
It will not be even for the sale fact that male sexuality is perceived different from both sides than female. you dont see those on Games cause those dont appeal to women the same way they (on women) appeal to male. I only mentioned it cause here and there that argument is thrown around "If its harmless, why do men are not sexualized the same way".
as Mesolan said, most people will just take it as joke or out right not care.
Take for Example Volvo
It's more like people trying to find equivalences that way seems foolish to me because the male gaze and female gaze are fundamentally different?
you really think that the reason they don't put attractive male characters in non-comedic sexualized poses and outfits is because of the differences between gender gazes?
you think no one would be into anything like the dumb example I gave?
Voldo is an awful example. have Kilik dress and crawl like that without the mask and monstrous noises and tell me that is the same.
you think no one would be into anything like the dumb example I gave?
Voldo is an awful example. have Kilik dress and crawl like that without the mask and monstrous noises and tell me that is the same.
well, yeah, from my perspective (and given some of the answers here) is not done simply cause it appeals to no body. men dont like it and seem like neither do women so why put this
I mean it plays a lot into like, cultural norms of masculinity and femininity yeah. Like as it's said before, there's a cultural aspect to attraction.
I'll bet there will be a subset of women who will be into your suggestion, hell I'll be into it, but take for example that viral tweet about that girl who thirsted so hard for Michael b Jordan that she broke her retainers. Thats despite killmonger looking like a smallpox victim while taking off his shirt. Killmonger has his moments of vulnerability but at that moment it is a shot meant to convey confidence and strength, which is not exactly what the pose you posted is trying to convey. There's a physicality to it that is not exactly physical either if it makes sense.
And that will be different culture to culture.
Like...in terms of character design? If it makes sense for the character and/or looks good, sure I guess. I mean, there are female character designs out there that are made to be sexy but I still like them and think they're cool (e.g. Twintelle in ARMS). The same would hypothetically apply to male characters.
I'd rather neither gender get shitted on and objectified in their representation though. Let's just be tasteful.
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also yeah this
There are plenty of comments from female fans that Link in BOTW is hot. Hell, Reggie was asked about Link's hotness.
But ask any guy if that design feels deliberately exploitative or objectifying because "That's just what girls like" and you're unlikely to find many that would say yes.
Is female gaze different than male gaze? I remember hearing once that female gaze is using the same techniques or ideas as male gaze, just directed towards men.
Yeah that's the thing about male gaze vs female gaze too, is that the power dynamics of society alone makes it near impossible to exploit and objectify male sexuality? The closest you get is the backlash in the gay community on certain female fans sexualising gay relationships.
Which is why transplanting male gaze into make designs just doesn't work, not to mention is not really what's considered to be mainstream sexy.
lmao raises hand cuz I know I would unironically be into the combo you described above w/ the design and posing and camera focusing (the first example a few posts up, not the soulcalibur one)
well, yeah, from my perspective (and given some of the answers here) is not done simply cause it appeals to no body. men dont like it and seem like neither do women so why put thisin a game if no body will be attracted to it???
this on the other hand... no... just no.
I mean I know taste is subjective and this is probably someone's thing but like... that's a damn elephant trunk. You gotta keep it tasteful and like.. there but not that level of there if you catch my drift lol
Dick socks are definitely not equal to boob socks, and I feel like every time someone tries to equate them when sexualizing males that they're doing it wrong.
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Thinking about it, I think the most respectful/feminist Japanese game I've played is Gravity Rush 2, and even that lets you dress the main character up like this:
Sigh...
Sigh...
A crossover from Phantasy Star Online 2, and easily the worst outfit in the game.Thinking about it, I think the most respectful/feminist Japanese game I've played is Gravity Rush 2, and even that lets you dress the main character up like this:
Sigh...
I don't think we should equal this kind of designs with the "male gaze". Most men aren't into this kind of stuff. This is appealing to a relatively narrow subset of people, so I'd say that this isn't about the "male vs female gazes". It's about audiences. If the kind of designs we see here were acceptable by a more mainstream audience, we'd have them in other media too, but it's something relatively uncommon if you step out of videogames.
The biggest problem for stuff like Fire Emblem, is that I feel there are 3 audiences currently interested in the games:
A) Otaku, which are a relatively low number, but buy tons of merchandise and whale the hell out of heroes.
B) Casual anime fans, which are "used too" seeing this kind of stuff, are mostly insensitive to it, and may like certain parts of the new style (the QoL improvements and some of the anime tropes)
C) The hardcore old FE fanbase.
I'd argue that there are better ways to appeal to B and C that what currently exist. I think there are better ways to include features like shipping and the children than what currently exists. And I think that it's possible to use stereotypes and tropes while having characters that feel like human beings. People like to make categories, and stereotypes exist because of that. Stereotypes are useful in creative writting, because you can use them as an starting point to avoid unnecessary explanations, eventhough it's not recommended to overload your piece with stereotypes. And you can build on that foundation to create something entirely different.
Normal stereotypes have some real basis in the real world. The problems is when a stereotype gets new quirks built in top of those already existing until you don't know where that basis in reality is. Yesterday, a friend and I were discussing about this tsundere trope from manga. It's used for characters that are usually brash and hurtful on the outside despite having a more tender innerself. If you use it well, this kind of character is usually insecure and uses that outer self as a mechanism of defense. As such, as the story and her character progresses, the character should soften, at least with those close to him/her.
But you have a lot of products, where they don't go from A to B, but decide to stay in A forever. The problem lies, IMO, in the incapability of the writter to make characters that feel different to the rest of the cast without resorting to these flashy tropes.
I mean take it how you will, but there is a start that hentai is the 2nd most searched term on pornhub last year.
Not that is definitive or anything, nor that most of these designs are as analogous to actual hentai really, but it can be disingenuous to think that sort of otaku style of sexualisation and fetishism is as niche as some here think.
Or more to the actual point that it is also disingenuous to think that it is separate from the history of male gaze in media. It's not really that different to western sexualisation.
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Well, first let me point out that the flaw in your argument is that it is pretty much entirely pulled from your rectum. Not only are you making broad, sweeping speculation, your also making up rules as to why it applies one way for one group, and not for another, with literally nothing to back it up. It doesn't really matter how 'reasonable' you think a narrative is, if you're going to try and make claims for an objective scientific perspective, then you have to back it up with science. Otherwise, the only flaw I need to point out here is 'None of this has been proven'. That's why I brought up the male pattern baldness nonsense. It's reasonable, in that it's logically valid and people believed it because of that, until scientists realized it has no actual proof backing up it up. All your doing here is setting yourself up for a narrative bias, thinking that just because something seems to make sense, it must be true.
As for the study you do cite, while interesting, I would hardly call it definitive proof. For example, in the discussion section, it itself says how in some populations, males do not have a preference for that body type, leading to speculation that this apparently 'biological based phenomenon' is highly dependant on societal factors, such as food availability. And if the article admits that, then how many other social factors could be at play here? And this study was done on an exclusively middle-aged Polish population, with the article admitting that it's scope is highly limited. To draw conclusive evidence on even the whole of 'Western Societies" as the article puts it, I would need a sampling of women atleast from other places, as well as a more detailed study of how non-Western societies male's preferences.
They found a correlation, which is not the same thing as finding a causation. It's a good article for what it is, but you can't run away calling it definitive proof even for your limited assertion and DEFINITELY not for all the extrapolated theorizing you did afterwards.
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Excellent post.
1) Using "men who search for porn" as your sample pool for what men in general are into is going to lead your conclusions astray every time. What's the #1 searched term and can we assume most men are into that?
2) Even then, there's a difference between "being into hentai" and "being into sexualized designs shoved everywhere", much like there's a difference between "being into porn (or, hell, into sex)" and "being into every character in TV shows dressing like a stripper". Time and place, gentlemen.
Lesbian is #1, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if that maps to real world preferences when it comes to fetishes.
OH totally, but I feel like this conversation is mostly about just the general id, the subconscious and cultural influences of how each sex objectify each other and society's sexual stereotypes, and how that infiltrates into general culture. I mean the gaze is called the gaze because it's literally how each sex choose to look at the world and each other through the camera.
Also if I'm being honest I feel like this conversation is getting away from me at this point due to going on for too long and trying to tackle too many avenues lol.
Still, definitely time and place, like I have my own kinks but I know better than to let my freak flag play all the time. But that's just general societal courtesy, and how most people will operate. But people letting their freak flag fly all the time being niche is not quite the same as:
I mean this literally happened lol. And I'll be the last to say Kim K is the ideal role model but she is undoubtedly one of the biggest pop culture influencers out there right now.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf655uvFf0T/?utm_source=ig_embed
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well, yeah, from my perspective (and given some of the answers here) is not done simply cause it appeals to no body. men dont like it and seem like neither do women so why put thisin a game if no body will be attracted to it???
As a bisexual man I hate these examples because I dont equate breasts with the penis. Primary sex organs are not something I always want to see. While the rest of the body certainly is.
In regards to the male gaze is the gaze of gay men and bi men when looking at men the male gaze too?
you keep bring up the notion that I somewhere claimed that what I'm saying is scientific fact, I never claimed that, I even specified that my theories were only validated in part by only that study but I never claimed that it was absolute scientific proof, when I claimed that anatomical and biological factors might have something to do in the difference of sexualization between sexes someone said that that was never a factor and that cultural trends are the only thing that influence sexualization, since to my knowledge you can't scientifically prove what that person said either I felt free to speculate too on what were my theories, and btw I would like to clarify that my theories never eliminated completely culture as a factor for certain aspects of female sexualization I said as much in a couple of comments already, my speculations were about how culture might have influenced sexualization between the sexes differently and with different intensity and focus(at least in the western world, it may be that cultural trends had a bigger impact on both sexes in the eastern world) and the role that anatomical and biological sexual selection might have on sexualization, you might say that I pulled this out of my ass but since I was discussing with someone that had arguments that from what I know weren't scientifically provable either I don't feel like I was arguing on uneven ground.
No, honestly, because it's explicitly about the power dynamics and perspective of het male creators who are dominant in every medium pretty much.
Not that there aren't weird things about gay presentation in media, but that's mostly about het people sexualising LGBT really. I mean in anime in particular it feels like most gay presentation is made for the female audience rather than gay men, but it's the best we'll get most of the time lol.
Thinking about it, I think the most respectful/feminist Japanese game I've played is Gravity Rush 2, and even that lets you dress the main character up like this:
Sigh...
What's wrong with that outfit? I honestly can't see the problem here. It just looks like an optional cool costume.
The lack of bottoms. Just a quick look at the picture and it looks like she forgot to put on some shorts when she left her home that morning.
She's wearing something though. To be honest, I find the ugly shoulder pads to be worse than her "lack of bottoms".
Siiigh. Remember when Phantasy Star was a pioneer of female empowerment in video games?
That was over 30 years ago. We truly have regressed in many ways.
The trend in character design for women (and often girls) to be drawn with just panties as bottoms is so annoying to me.
Oh I see. I thought male gaze was specifically how the camera shows women in media. Thanks for letting me know
Oh no it totally is. I think I'm misunderstanding your question? I thought it was more about if it includes gay men framing gay men.
Anyway I think I starting to repeat the phrase a little too much. :P
lol yes I too go outdoors in my underwear when there's a warm sun and a light breeze.
Do you also control gravity at will and fly around fighting bad guys?
OH SNAP, YOU GOT ME. Alright wearing underwear is okay since I can't control gravity... How dumb of me.
Equally so the people who pass it off as fine.
"It's what women wear! At the beach!"
Noooooooooo Alis :(
Superman isn't flying around in his tighty whities, now is he
I had an idea how bad it would be after playing PSO2 for a while and seeing some of the outfits, but dear god, Alis, what did they do to you?
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