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SUPER NT ｜OT｜ a TRUE 1080p FPGA-SUPER NINTENDO GALORE
- Thread starter ThorHammerstein
- Start date
Happen to have the vertical res handy? I forget what they put it at, but if I remember correctly they were using interpolation on both the horizontal and vertical, which is totally fine.
I prefer to keep one scaled on int to maintain some amount of sharpness, but if the math works out then I'm sure the aspect ratio is within a reasonable margin of error.
Interesting, that's more or less what happened with mine, expect I was able to continue powering it on for a couple more days before it finally quit. I have my replacement PCB waiting for me at home.
1149, it does look ok, but so does yours, except scanlines are messed up at 1149.
Yeah, they weren't using 5x on the vertical. I think they were using 4.5x or something similar.
Scanlines will look messed up on anything other than 3x/4x/5x on the vertical.
hm, my quick, and admittedly could be wrong, calculation says they should go for 1400x1149, so seems like it might be slightly squished. When I have a chance I'll load up linearity and take a better look if it looks slightly off at their recommend.
Though keep in mind there is no perfect here on a square pixel display. There is always going to be some compromise.
Though keep in mind there is no perfect here on a square pixel display. There is always going to be some compromise.
Yeah take a look, from what I remember, they tried to marry up the Nt pic, to their CRT, not sure any maths was actually involved.
Because if you're not using an integer scale you'll get shimmering.
Anyone here use the Hyperkin mouse? Been thinking about picking up Mario Paint and Picross, but I'm kinda wondering it'd be worth it (seeing some reviews say the Hyperkin connectors are way too tight and could damage the system).
Oh really? I hadn't heard that about the connectors. I use the Hyperkin mouse and it has worked great for me.
It was just one Amazon review I saw, scanning over it pretty quick. I guess it pops in and out of the NT easy enough? Also seen some others say it kinda moves too fast? Any impressions on that?
If it's OK I might just go ahead and pick one up. Honestly more worried to roll the dice on 20+ year old mechanical mice for the same price.
If you're worried then you could try plugging it into an extension cable :)
It's not your fault kevtris gave the option a stupid name. I sane person would've called it H Interpolation: ON/OFF.
Yeah, just checked and 1365x1149 produces slightly more oblong circles in Linearity. Nearly a full mm difference on the axis so decently significant. 1400x1149 produces closer to equal diameter in both H and V.
Keep in mind the pixels are scaled larger and interpolated and I'm just holding a ruler up to my TV so not talking exactly scientific here, but even just looking at it visually I can pick up they are slightly narrower at 1365x1149.
Also if you were to stretch beyond 1400 to make them actual perfectly round circles, games that did not adjust for the 4:3 stretch will look quite fat, and there are a lot of them. imo you are better off going int scaling on the horizontal at that point as things are going to look stretched regardless. As I said, this stuff is a compromise. I'll try and cover and explain as many scenarios as I can in my write up so people can make an informed decision to their preferences.
And FWIW I'd bet if you sat most people down and did the pepsi challenge between 1365 and 1400 most would not be able to tell any difference.
edit: oh, and also worth mentioning. I don't have a flashcart so I can't confirm, but if you pull up Linearity on a large CRT and measure I'd bet they are not exactly perfect circles there either. It is just the nature of the fidelity of working with low res pixels. There is going to be a mm or two of variance one direction or the other. Picking the right balance between over or under shooting the underlying math is one of the big elements behind pixel art, but that is a different matter entirely.
Here just stare at the imagined continuous source signal, compared to the pixel make up until it all makes sense. It is the best I can do to explain any of this.
Code:
1365 x 1149 1400 x 1149
H: 15.0 mm H: 15.4 mm
V: 15.7 mm V: 15.7 mmKeep in mind the pixels are scaled larger and interpolated and I'm just holding a ruler up to my TV so not talking exactly scientific here, but even just looking at it visually I can pick up they are slightly narrower at 1365x1149.
Also if you were to stretch beyond 1400 to make them actual perfectly round circles, games that did not adjust for the 4:3 stretch will look quite fat, and there are a lot of them. imo you are better off going int scaling on the horizontal at that point as things are going to look stretched regardless. As I said, this stuff is a compromise. I'll try and cover and explain as many scenarios as I can in my write up so people can make an informed decision to their preferences.
And FWIW I'd bet if you sat most people down and did the pepsi challenge between 1365 and 1400 most would not be able to tell any difference.
edit: oh, and also worth mentioning. I don't have a flashcart so I can't confirm, but if you pull up Linearity on a large CRT and measure I'd bet they are not exactly perfect circles there either. It is just the nature of the fidelity of working with low res pixels. There is going to be a mm or two of variance one direction or the other. Picking the right balance between over or under shooting the underlying math is one of the big elements behind pixel art, but that is a different matter entirely.
Here just stare at the imagined continuous source signal, compared to the pixel make up until it all makes sense. It is the best I can do to explain any of this.
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I admittedly haven't used it a ton so maybe I'll pay a little closer attention next time I plug it in and remove it but it did stand out as being a little harder to unplug. It is sensitive but I adjusted to it pretty quickly. It works great!
That's a very good idea!
I probably said as much in the last thread, but all shipping woes aside, this has been such a good get. Always wanted a SNES as a kid, and now I've got a great one. Only took 26 years!
After looking at my local used game store (and the laughable GameStop retro selection) I'm gonna pretty strongly recommend anyone looking for cart games (especially the special chip expansion games that won't run off the SD) to just order Super Famicom versions off of eBay.
I was able to get Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, Super Mario Kart and Super Mario Collection for about five bucks less than my local place wanted for Mario Kart alone. Same for Super Donkey Kong 1-3 vs. their price for just Donkey Kong Country.
After looking at my local used game store (and the laughable GameStop retro selection) I'm gonna pretty strongly recommend anyone looking for cart games (especially the special chip expansion games that won't run off the SD) to just order Super Famicom versions off of eBay.
I was able to get Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, Super Mario Kart and Super Mario Collection for about five bucks less than my local place wanted for Mario Kart alone. Same for Super Donkey Kong 1-3 vs. their price for just Donkey Kong Country.
Cheers for having a look, I'm gonna stick with 1462x1200 inc scanlines, really quite happy with it :)
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Nice. Sitting pretty envious over here right now. Need to seriously sit down and get a stick together.
What adapter are you using, btw?
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Think I'm going to need a little help from some PAL friends. In continuation from here: https://www.resetera.com/posts/5387167/
I've been trying to experiment with PAL resolution and... everything I've tried seems to stick to 240p, and often only 224 of the lines much like NTSC as you can see in the screenshot below. That is cropped and reduced down to 256x240. You can see the black borders across the top/bottom. Unless I'm being completely oblivious about something, I admit I have basically never played anything PAL in my life so very possible I'm just being a doof here.
Unfortunately Mario Kart uses an expansion chip and as you would suspect I do not have a PAL Mario Kart cartridge so I have no way to test it specifically. Anyone know any other PAL games that would be good for testing? Also, anyone else with a PAL Mario Kart mind confirming they are seeing the same behavior ktroopa saw in the previous thread? Any help at all would be appreciated.
Did a side-by-side in Higan as well.
I've been trying to experiment with PAL resolution and... everything I've tried seems to stick to 240p, and often only 224 of the lines much like NTSC as you can see in the screenshot below. That is cropped and reduced down to 256x240. You can see the black borders across the top/bottom. Unless I'm being completely oblivious about something, I admit I have basically never played anything PAL in my life so very possible I'm just being a doof here.
Unfortunately Mario Kart uses an expansion chip and as you would suspect I do not have a PAL Mario Kart cartridge so I have no way to test it specifically. Anyone know any other PAL games that would be good for testing? Also, anyone else with a PAL Mario Kart mind confirming they are seeing the same behavior ktroopa saw in the previous thread? Any help at all would be appreciated.
Did a side-by-side in Higan as well.
Think I'm going to need a little help from some PAL friends. In continuation from here: https://www.resetera.com/posts/5387167/
I've been trying to experiment with PAL resolution and... everything I've tried seems to stick to 240p, and often only 224 of the lines much like NTSC as you can see in the screenshot below. That is cropped and reduced down to 256x240. You can see the black borders across the top/bottom. Unless I'm being completely oblivious about something, I admit I have basically never played anything PAL in my life so very possible I'm just being a doof here.
Unfortunately Mario Kart uses an expansion chip and as you would suspect I do not have a PAL Mario Kart cartridge so I have no way to test it specifically. Anyone know any other PAL games that would be good for testing? Also, anyone else with a PAL Mario Kart mind confirming they are seeing the same behavior ktroopa saw in the previous thread? Any help at all would be appreciated.
Did a side-by-side in Higan as well.
Most of the time we'd just have black borders which should explain the same sizes, should it not?
Are the other colors apart from black going to come back in stock? I want to get the Super Famicom one eventually when my financial status is a little more stable.
Oh, that's a fun thing to wrap your head around. Although I'm from PAL territory I'm not sure if I got it right, but I'll try.
NTSC refresh rate is 60Hz, PAL is 50Hz and suprisingly that's the bigger difference, not resolution. SNES PAL games therefore ran slower than their NTSC originals on a PAL TV back in the day. Some of them were 'optimised' for PAL, meaning that they ran 20 percent faster internally in order to compensate for the slower refresh rate. So for example in Donkey Kong Country (which was optimised it seems) there was no speed difference between PAL and NTSC.
Now for the resolution. PAL SNES did output 288p vertically, true. But most of the games came from NTSC territory und thus were rendered in 240p. I have no proof but I read elsewhere that even games developed in PAL territory were rendered in 240p most of the time because the development tools were not adapted to PAL standards or because the games were intended to ship also to NTSC territory. So to adjust for PAL resolutions game developers simply gave us the black borders McBradders mentioned above, often resulting in a squished image on PAL TVs. Super Probotector seems to be one example for a game were they tried to use at least a part of the additional screen space. Can't test that personally, though.
So, in the end, is it maybe more important how the Super NT handels PAL games internally than the resolution of the games itself? Output is set to either 720p, 1080p oder 480p, with 480p being a multiple of NTSC 240p. And while we can choose between 60 and 50 Hz for speed reasons (see above) there is no option for 'PAL resolution'. Maybe kevtris solved that problem somewhere in his core. At least when I tested my PAL games with SmiteOfHand's recommendation, I neither missed any information, nor got the impression of a squished picture.
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Thanks for the explanation. Came to the same conclusion reading up. Now I am trying to find if there were any games released that used the extra lines from the 288p signal. So far it has been a bust. I suspect if the game does the Super Nt would display all 288 lines, but hard to know without a confirmed example.
I do know SNT accurately scales RPM Racing which displays entirely in high res so the frame buffer is capable of something besides 240p. I'll experiment with that and see if it reveals any more clues.
ktroopa I think it might be a good idea to return to your TV settings because as far as I can tell the PAL version of Mario Kart should display letterboxed. I don't believe it uses the extra lines but I could be mistaken. Can you confirm both of these settings are set and then load up Mario Kart and see if the UI is still cropped at max 1200 vertical res?
Format: Full
Display Area: Full Pixel
Yeah, I should add that we had borders and a squashed image - moving over to an NTSC console was crazy because finally everything looked correct, the additional speed was just icing on that particular cake :)
Side tangent here but as an American who has played more than a few PAL games over the years I would like to say that even though it's not great I can totally deal with the squashed game image and slower game speed in many PAL games BUT the absolute worst thing about many PAL games is that in some games with slower game speed the audio is slowed down as well. I grew up a Nintendo kid but thanks to the Dreamcast I got WAY into Sega games in the late 90s/early 2000s and I got way into Sonic in particular. When I discovered I had a PC that could run Gens, that really opened the Genesis emulation scene for me. My point is I got so into Sonic that I was basically checking out any Sonic rom I could get my hands on (I liked picking out differences in versions) when I came across a PAL Sonic 1 rom which was the first time I played any PAL games. When I heard the PAL version of the Green Hill Zone theme I genuinely thought I had downloaded a corrupt rom:
When I learned more about PAL games it absolutley blew my mind. I could not believe that THAT was the version of the Green Hill Zone theme tons of kids grew up with. Not to mention the fact that Sonic was so SLOW!!! It was unbelievable to me. lol. I could only imagine what a godsend import shops and emulation had to be in PAL regions.
Here is RPM Racing reduced. Compare to the Zelda shot above and you'll see the big difference in frame resolution. Stuff like the trucks and UI are scaled in the game, but if you zoom in to the pixels in the grass and such you'll see it is 1x1. You can see it most pronounced in the black lines on the edges of the pillars under the track. Weird seeing a high res SNES game on your TV, I recommend throwing it on and taking a look.
It would be really nice if we could set the non-frame background to a certain color so you can know exactly where the frame ends. I just used the crop feature to try and work out where the 480 frame is, I believe the borders below are accurate but hard to know for sure. (oh, I screwed up on the horizontal as there should be bordering there too, oh well. Point is it definitely will display and scale a non-240p frame)
It would be really nice if we could set the non-frame background to a certain color so you can know exactly where the frame ends. I just used the crop feature to try and work out where the 480 frame is, I believe the borders below are accurate but hard to know for sure. (oh, I screwed up on the horizontal as there should be bordering there too, oh well. Point is it definitely will display and scale a non-240p frame)
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Emulation: Absolutely!
Import shops: To a far lesser extent since you still needed a modded SNES and a TV capable of switching to 60 Hz.
I'm talking about pre- internet times of course. After that: oh how wonderful life can be. ;)
So I guess things I've heard/read about retro gaming across the pond which painted a picture of there being kind of a huge importing scene. I mean, the man behind "Super Famicom: The Box Art Collection" is a dude by the name of Stuart Brett(?) from the UK who grew up importing Super Famicom games.
SNES PAL game related question: does anyone know of a games list that lists all of the PAL SNES games that don't play correctly when they're sped up to normal speed and does anyone know of a list of PAL SNES games that were made to play at normal speed (and thus doesn't need to be sped up)?
May depend on the region, I guess? I know France has a huge arcade import scene, and I'd imagine it extends into consoles and such.
YES. I noticed that when I got into buying a lot of Neo Geo MVS and Neo Geo CD stuff. So many sellers were shipping from France. Again, sorry about the side tangent. I just find this stuff so interesting
Import gaming was like witchcraft... you could do it by shaving some plastic off your Megadrive case. When they started region locking it got more difficult (and expensive). SNES needed a dedicated import machine to do so was even crazier... never forget playing Mario Kart at 60hz for the first time... couldn't go back after that.
I still can't find a definitive list but at least a discussion here that seems to be a bit more informed although it's fairly outdated. It makes things even more complicated:
'Most PAL optimized games back then were speed only. Most of them kept the boarders.'
'[...]they were 'optimized' (not really the correct word - maybe 'slightly improved' is better...) by maybe a speed boost and slightly narrower borders than might have normally been the case. Remember that some NTSC games had borders (SFII, Final Fight, Stunt Race FX etc) already and when the Pal versions of those were released in 'Letterbox-o-vision' it really showed how badly the Pal gamer was treated...'
'Most PAL optimized games back then were speed only. Most of them kept the boarders.'
'[...]they were 'optimized' (not really the correct word - maybe 'slightly improved' is better...) by maybe a speed boost and slightly narrower borders than might have normally been the case. Remember that some NTSC games had borders (SFII, Final Fight, Stunt Race FX etc) already and when the Pal versions of those were released in 'Letterbox-o-vision' it really showed how badly the Pal gamer was treated...'
Super Mario World PAL Rev 1 draws into the overscan. Cool, ok, something to work with. Will report back.
And here it is maxed out at 1200 vertical. Tiny bit of the top of the UI is cropped but nothing too excessive.
And here it is maxed out at 1200 vertical. Tiny bit of the top of the UI is cropped but nothing too excessive.
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Thanks for looking! Definitely some interesting tidbits there.
EDIT:
I was able to find some of the research I had done in the other Super Nt thread:
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Tried it as above and still crops off the UI at the top :( stupid PAL res :p
Thanks, I think I've figured it out. Not only does PAL Mario Kart draw into overscan it does it in a pretty strange way. At the title screen it utilizes all 240 lines, but in game uses letterboxing, HOWEVER.. it starts near the top of the frame in the overscan area and leaves a large space at the bottom. Sometimes it leaves the bottom black and sometimes has random garbage in there, as you can see below (look closely at the bottom of the last screenshot). Never seen anything like it, but explains why the top looked crop while the bottom seemed correct.
What a strange thing, good to know about though.
This is a small PSA for all you new cartridge collectors out there. I know a bunch of you are ordering carts off ebay so it's important to take note:
The CR2032 batteries inside Snes cartridges are either dead, or at best, dying. Yes, they may still hold your saves now, but they're 20-25 years old, and they will die sooner rather than later. If you've just bought a game that employs a CR2032 (which is pretty much every rpg), you should replace it before you start playing. Nothing sucks worse than turning on a game to find your save has been erased.
You have two solid options as far as replacements go: install a battery holder, or buy a tabbed battery replacement. Both of these require basic soldering skills to replace. Please do not try to tape a new battery in place. You will regret it later.
I personally like the battery holder option. Think of it as future proofing. In a couple decades, all you have to do is pop the old battery out instead of going through the soldering process again.
Here's a quick video (not mine) on how to install these:
I've used the battery holders he links to and they're probably your best option, but I've also found Chinese knockoffs on ebay. I ordered some years ago and they seem to be pretty much the same thing for far less. The choice is yours.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-Plastic-Housing-CR2032-Button-Cell-Battery-Socket-Holder-Case-EP/222875616286?_trkparms=aid=555019&algo=PL.BANDIT&ao=1&asc=50686&meid=8b2ee6cf6bfb4a1e91d94078e08cff96&pid=100505&rk=1&rkt=1&&itm=222875616286&_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226
The last piece of the battery holder puzzle is choosing a good battery. Don't buy generic junk. Go for a good brand name: Sony, Energizer, Panasonic. They're fairly inexpensive on Amazon. Also, make sure what you order isn't fake. It happens, even on Amazon.
If you want to go with tabbed batteries, eBay is the way to go. Unfortunately, the only person I know that sold tabbed Panasonic batteries has just closed up shop.
The CR2032 batteries inside Snes cartridges are either dead, or at best, dying. Yes, they may still hold your saves now, but they're 20-25 years old, and they will die sooner rather than later. If you've just bought a game that employs a CR2032 (which is pretty much every rpg), you should replace it before you start playing. Nothing sucks worse than turning on a game to find your save has been erased.
You have two solid options as far as replacements go: install a battery holder, or buy a tabbed battery replacement. Both of these require basic soldering skills to replace. Please do not try to tape a new battery in place. You will regret it later.
I personally like the battery holder option. Think of it as future proofing. In a couple decades, all you have to do is pop the old battery out instead of going through the soldering process again.
Here's a quick video (not mine) on how to install these:
I've used the battery holders he links to and they're probably your best option, but I've also found Chinese knockoffs on ebay. I ordered some years ago and they seem to be pretty much the same thing for far less. The choice is yours.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-Plastic-Housing-CR2032-Button-Cell-Battery-Socket-Holder-Case-EP/222875616286?_trkparms=aid=555019&algo=PL.BANDIT&ao=1&asc=50686&meid=8b2ee6cf6bfb4a1e91d94078e08cff96&pid=100505&rk=1&rkt=1&&itm=222875616286&_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226
The last piece of the battery holder puzzle is choosing a good battery. Don't buy generic junk. Go for a good brand name: Sony, Energizer, Panasonic. They're fairly inexpensive on Amazon. Also, make sure what you order isn't fake. It happens, even on Amazon.
If you want to go with tabbed batteries, eBay is the way to go. Unfortunately, the only person I know that sold tabbed Panasonic batteries has just closed up shop.
Here are some tabbed Panny bats.
https://console5.com/store/panasonic-cr2032-3v-lithium-battery-with-solder-tabs-pins.html