ill agree that The exact same piece will not work the same for men at women, but
yo, what happened to the Hide option??
yo, what happened to the Hide option??
ill agree that The exact same piece will not work the same for men at women, but
yo, what happened to the Hide option??
You have to put time and thought into design, something that doesn't happen all that much when it comes to male video game characters in general.
Otome games?You have to put time and thought into design, something that doesn't happen all that much when it comes to male video game characters in general.
I sincerely hope you're joking. Do you honestly believe that male characters who are "more designed" (whatever this means) intend to appeal to female otaku tastes?They kinda are, but not in majority of the games mainstream gaming will care about, and most of the time done for female otaku's tastes.
I would say, even in this current surge of otome games, they're far from the norm.
I sincerely hope you're joking. Do you honestly believe that male characters who are "more designed" (whatever this means) intend to appeal to female otaku tastes?
Sure, but there are orders of magnitude in terms of difference between those games and all other games. And regardless of their scale, it doesn't excuse the treatment women receive in mainstream games.No I'm saying that there are games that are deliberately designed to female otaku's taste.
There's a market there that's fairly sizable (mobile otome games can get pretty big for example) but it's not mainstream.
Sure, but there are orders of magnitude in terms of difference between those games and all other games. And regardless of their scale, it doesn't excuse the treatment women receive in mainstream games.
It's such a dumb idea that somehow by having media that appeals specifically to females that it "balances out" the shitty treatment in all other similar media. It doesn't.
It will not be even for the sale fact that male sexuality is perceived different from both sides than female. you dont see those on Games cause those dont appeal to women the same way they (on women) appeal to male. I only mentioned it cause here and there that argument is thrown around "If its harmless, why do men are not sexualized the same way".
well, yeah, from my perspective (and given some of the answers here) is not done simply cause it appeals to no body. men dont like it and seem like neither do women so why put thisyou really think that the reason they don't put attractive male characters in non-comedic sexualized poses and outfits is because of the differences between gender gazes?
Yeah, this.It's more like people trying to find equivalences that way seems foolish to me because the male gaze and female gaze are fundamentally different?
you really think that the reason they don't put attractive male characters in non-comedic sexualized poses and outfits is because of the differences between gender gazes?
you think no one would be into anything like the dumb example I gave?
Voldo is an awful example. have Kilik dress and crawl like that without the mask and monstrous noises and tell me that is the same.
Like...in terms of character design? If it makes sense for the character and/or looks good, sure I guess. I mean, there are female character designs out there that are made to be sexy but I still like them and think they're cool (e.g. Twintelle in ARMS). The same would hypothetically apply to male characters.Actually serious question,
Take any trope (boob plate/ bikine armor/ excesive skin display) done to female characters.
If the same trope were added to male characters, as a women, will you like that/ enjoy it in game??
also yeah thisIt's more like people trying to find equivalences that way seems foolish to me because the male gaze and female gaze are fundamentally different?
There are plenty of comments from female fans that Link in BOTW is hot. Hell, Reggie was asked about Link's hotness.No I'm saying that there are games that are deliberately designed to female otaku's taste.
There's a market there that's fairly sizable (mobile otome games can get pretty big for example) but it's not mainstream.
Is female gaze different than male gaze? I remember hearing once that female gaze is using the same techniques or ideas as male gaze, just directed towards men.It's more like people trying to find equivalences that way seems foolish to me because the male gaze and female gaze are fundamentally different?
There are plenty of comments from female fans that Link in BOTW is hot. Hell, Reggie was asked about Link's hotness.
But ask any guy if that design feels deliberately exploitative or objectifying because "That's just what girls like" and you're unlikely to find many that would say yes.
you really think that the reason they don't put attractive male characters in non-comedic sexualized poses and outfits is because of the differences between gender gazes?
you think no one would be into anything like the dumb example I gave?
Voldo is an awful example. have Kilik dress and crawl like that without the mask and monstrous noises and tell me that is the same.
well, yeah, from my perspective (and given some of the answers here) is not done simply cause it appeals to no body. men dont like it and seem like neither do women so why put thisin a game if no body will be attracted to it???
A crossover from Phantasy Star Online 2, and easily the worst outfit in the game.Thinking about it, I think the most respectful/feminist Japanese game I've played is Gravity Rush 2, and even that lets you dress the main character up like this:
Sigh...
Yeah that's the thing about male gaze vs female gaze too, is that the power dynamics of society alone makes it near impossible to exploit and objectify male sexuality? The closest you get is the backlash in the gay community on certain female fans sexualising gay relationships.
Which is why transplanting male gaze into make designs just doesn't work, not to mention is not really what's considered to be mainstream sexy.
I don't think we should equal this kind of designs with the "male gaze". Most men aren't into this kind of stuff. This is appealing to a relatively narrow subset of people, so I'd say that this isn't about the "male vs female gazes". It's about audiences. If the kind of designs we see here were acceptable by a more mainstream audience, we'd have them in other media too, but it's something relatively uncommon if you step out of videogames.
Well let me begin to explain myself even further then:
"you're just cherry picking individual attraction phenomenons and arbitrarily associating it with a theoretical reproduction benefit without actually proving any of it"
well I did found a study that found correlation between large breast/hip waist ratio and actual reproduction benefit:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691716/pdf/15306344.pdf
so my argument that at least in regard to women the attractiveness of certain physical traits might be dictated by more than just societal trends seems to be validated by at least this study.
My argument for male attractiveness is a little more complex and more difficult to prove as it's more broad and there aren't any study that I could find to help me, but nonetheless we do know a lot about women's role and supposed needs throughout the ages so I feel like I can make reasonable claims about male attractiveness and the role male physical attributes had in it.
I think these are rather reasonable claims to make considering the historical information at our disposal and our knowledge and acceptance of Darwin's theories. I don't feel like I've been cherry picking in my argument but if you do find flaws in it I'm happy to have a conversation about it.
I don't think we should equal this kind of designs with the "male gaze". Most men aren't into this kind of stuff. This is appealing to a relatively narrow subset of people, so I'd say that this isn't about the "male vs female gazes". It's about audiences. If the kind of designs we see here were acceptable by a more mainstream audience, we'd have them in other media too, but it's something relatively uncommon if you step out of videogames.
The biggest problem for stuff like Fire Emblem, is that I feel there are 3 audiences currently interested in the games:
A) Otaku, which are a relatively low number, but buy tons of merchandise and whale the hell out of heroes.
B) Casual anime fans, which are "used too" seeing this kind of stuff, are mostly insensitive to it, and may like certain parts of the new style (the QoL improvements and some of the anime tropes)
C) The hardcore old FE fanbase.
I'd argue that there are better ways to appeal to B and C that what currently exist. I think there are better ways to include features like shipping and the children than what currently exists. And I think that it's possible to use stereotypes and tropes while having characters that feel like human beings. People like to make categories, and stereotypes exist because of that. Stereotypes are useful in creative writting, because you can use them as an starting point to avoid unnecessary explanations, eventhough it's not recommended to overload your piece with stereotypes. And you can build on that foundation to create something entirely different.
Normal stereotypes have some real basis in the real world. The problems is when a stereotype gets new quirks built in top of those already existing until you don't know where that basis in reality is. Yesterday, a friend and I were discussing about this tsundere trope from manga. It's used for characters that are usually brash and hurtful on the outside despite having a more tender innerself. If you use it well, this kind of character is usually insecure and uses that outer self as a mechanism of defense. As such, as the story and her character progresses, the character should soften, at least with those close to him/her.
But you have a lot of products, where they don't go from A to B, but decide to stay in A forever. The problem lies, IMO, in the incapability of the writter to make characters that feel different to the rest of the cast without resorting to these flashy tropes.
I mean take it how you will, but there is a start that hentai is the 2nd most searched term on pornhub last year.
1) Using "men who search for porn" as your sample pool for what men in general are into is going to lead your conclusions astray every time. What's the #1 searched term and can we assume most men are into that?
2) Even then, there's a difference between "being into hentai" and "being into sexualized designs shoved everywhere", much like there's a difference between "being into porn (or, hell, into sex)" and "being into every character in TV shows dressing like a stripper". Time and place, gentlemen
Most men aren't into this kind of stuff. This is appealing to a relatively narrow subset of people, so I'd say that this isn't about the "male vs female gazes".
well, yeah, from my perspective (and given some of the answers here) is not done simply cause it appeals to no body. men dont like it and seem like neither do women so why put thisin a game if no body will be attracted to it???
you keep bring up the notion that I somewhere claimed that what I'm saying is scientific fact, I never claimed that, I even specified that my theories were only validated in part by only that study but I never claimed that it was absolute scientific proof, when I claimed that anatomical and biological factors might have something to do in the difference of sexualization between sexes someone said that that was never a factor and that cultural trends are the only thing that influence sexualization, since to my knowledge you can't scientifically prove what that person said either I felt free to speculate too on what were my theories, and btw I would like to clarify that my theories never eliminated completely culture as a factor for certain aspects of female sexualization I said as much in a couple of comments already, my speculations were about how culture might have influenced sexualization between the sexes differently and with different intensity and focus(at least in the western world, it may be that cultural trends had a bigger impact on both sexes in the eastern world) and the role that anatomical and biological sexual selection might have on sexualization, you might say that I pulled this out of my ass but since I was discussing with someone that had arguments that from what I know weren't scientifically provable either I don't feel like I was arguing on uneven ground.Well, first let me point out that the flaw in your argument is that it is pretty much entirely pulled from your rectum. Not only are you making broad, sweeping speculation, your also making up rules as to why it applies one way for one group, and not for another, with literally nothing to back it up. It doesn't really matter how 'reasonable' you think a narrative is, if you're going to try and make claims for an objective scientific perspective, then you have to back it up with science. Otherwise, the only flaw I need to point out here is 'None of this has been proven'. That's why I brought up the male pattern baldness nonsense. It's reasonable, in that it's logically valid and people believed it because of that, until scientists realized it has no actual proof backing up it up. All your doing here is setting yourself up for a narrative bias, thinking that just because something seems to make sense, it must be true.
As for the study you do cite, while interesting, I would hardly call it definitive proof. For example, in the discussion section, it itself says how in some populations, males do not have a preference for that body type, leading to speculation that this apparently 'biological based phenomenon' is highly dependant on societal factors, such as food availability. And if the article admits that, then how many other social factors could be at play here? And this study was done on an exclusively middle-aged Polish population, with the article admitting that it's scope is highly limited. To draw conclusive evidence on even the whole of 'Western Societies" as the article puts it, I would need a sampling of women atleast from other places, as well as a more detailed study of how non-Western societies male's preferences.
They found a correlation, which is not the same thing as finding a causation. It's a good article for what it is, but you can't run away calling it definitive proof even for your limited assertion and DEFINITELY not for all the extrapolated theorizing you did afterwards.
As a bisexual man I hate these examples because I dont equate breasts with the penis. Primary sex organs are not something I always want to see. While the rest of the body certainly is.
In regards to the male gaze is the gaze of gay men and bi men when looking at men the male gaze too?
Thinking about it, I think the most respectful/feminist Japanese game I've played is Gravity Rush 2, and even that lets you dress the main character up like this:
Sigh...
The lack of bottoms. Just a quick look at the picture and it looks like she forgot to put on some shorts when she left her home that morning.What's wrong with that outfit? I honestly can't see the problem here. It just looks like an optional cool costume.
The lack of bottoms. Just a quick look at the picture and it looks like she forgot to put on some shorts when she left her home that morning.
Siiigh. Remember when Phantasy Star was a pioneer of female empowerment in video games?
No, honestly, because it's explicitly about the power dynamics and perspective of het male creators who are dominant in every medium pretty much.
Not that there aren't weird things about gay presentation in media, but that's mostly about het people sexualising LGBT really. I mean in anime in particular it feels like most gay presentation is made for the female audience rather than gay men, but it's the best we'll get most of the time lol.
Oh I see. I thought male gaze was specifically how the camera shows women in media. Thanks for letting me know
What's wrong with that outfit? I honestly can't see the problem here. It just looks like an optional cool costume.
lol yes I too go outdoors in my underwear when there's a warm sun and a light breeze.
Do you also control gravity at will and fly around fighting bad guys?
Siiigh. Remember when Phantasy Star was a pioneer of female empowerment in video games?
That was over 30 years ago. We truly have regressed in many ways.
Equally so the people who pass it off as fine.The trend in character design for women (and often girls) to be drawn with just panties as bottoms is so annoying to me.
Superman isn't flying around in his tighty whities, now is heDo you also control gravity at will and fly around fighting bad guys?