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Oct 25, 2017
15,110
Are you somehow implying that in age of President Donald Trump that debates actually matter instead of acting as reinforcement for either side that their guy DESTROYED the other one on the wheel of logic
I said it in an earlier post, but yes. There seems to be a lust from the right to actually have someone construct a half-decent argument. Probably because all the Fox News/Tea Party/Trumps of the world look like absolute fools in any honest conversation.
To me it looks like a reaction to it more than being the same thing.
 

klonere

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,439
I do think the central thesis of the article - that liberal thought has failed to produce a systematic critique of the system we live in today that is in anyway compelling - is far more important than dunking on a dullard like Peterson. Idpol is such a narrow and weak view to try and squeeze all of capitalist society into.

The weakness of that liberal thought makes it a fairly easy slam dunk for pseudo intellectuals/actual idiots like Peterson to capture mindshare like they do. It's funny that all Peterson is agitating for is the inherent, inalienable correctness of the Nuclear Family and status quo.

I only do it when papa Peterson asks me.

So it IS a cult
 

klonere

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,439
I said it in an earlier post, but yes. There seems to be a lust from the right to actually have someone construct a half-decent argument. Probably because all the Fox News/Tea Party/Trumps of the world look like absolute fools in any honest conversation.
To me it looks like a reaction to it more than being the same thing.

As long as both sides express the correct, comforting views to their respective bases, everyone goes home happy. Like, I don't understand in the age of Infowars, Trump, Sam Harris, Ben Shapiro etc etc that debate and decorum have anything to do with it. It's a different kind of sport - everyone takes a side. There is no right or wrong, it's just about the medium, not the message. And in this case, the medium are avatars of the "right opinions", Peterson, Shapiro et al.
 

Arkeband

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,663
Until someone actually debates him and make he look bad, he'll just keep growing. Saying he's altright, fascist and stuff like that won't work (and in this case it's even false, and anyone that listen to him knows that). Making fun of his voice or how he doesn't know how to use Twitter will not help too. He's not a shitty YouTuber, an altright kid spouting nonsense on social media, he's not creating memes to "destroy the libcucks" or shit like that.

The man speaks well, and in every debate he has been he always come up good and gets thousands of followers and subscribers. To try to limit a university professor with thousands of academic citations like him with those articles won't help. It's preaching to the choir. I read most of the article and there's nothing too new there. And he'll probably starting rambling about the article on his Twitter son lol.

While I do like him (even if disagreeing with some stuff he says, like the makeup thing, although it's also something that has been exaggerated by his critics), most of what I know of him is from my wife, that loves his lectures about psychology and doesn't care about the political controversies. The man's a clinical psychologist with decades of experience, his new book is a top seller in a lot of countries and he's filling audiences everywhere, while people break windows and keep screaming during his lectures, making him look even better to the outsiders. You're not going to win this argument with reductionist labels on him, unless you just want to keep saying how he's a bad guy on Era and Twitter and saying that you don't understand why he's getting so big everywhere.

He already did mention the article on Twitter, only addressing the plug mid-article for the pseudo-intellectual parody book that went completely over his head (because he's actually a moron). And his twitter being a nightmare of hoaxes and conspiracy theories is not him "not knowing how to Twitter".

When he's making podcast rounds defending Kekistan, you don't get to pretend he's separate from that cesspool.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont


This is the clip from PSA. Dismissing the existence of things like Racial Inequality and Systemic Racism makes me question this guy. He does the same thing in a couple of the videos I watched. It involves downplaying ideas that White Nationalists and the Alt-Right vehemently oppose (Identity Politics) and pandering to specifically men.

Now this clip in its entirety is actually interesting. He basically says the society is responsible for attacking masculinity and starts making points that people who have underachieved (the most susceptible people to movements like the Alt-Right) can blame. So this immediately allows vulnerable men to insert themselves and say "Yea, see. He gets it. It's not my fault. Society is preventing me from being myself!" He then makes this logical leap after being guided by the Human Question Mark that is Tucker Carlson, of saying that expressions of masculinity are apparently prevented because it reinforces the idea of the patriarchy--which makes no fucking sense but whatever dude.

Next he does something kind of insane. He flatly denies that human history is rife with women being oppressed by men. His claims basically go from questionable to being factually inaccurate at times, and paint a rosier picture of previous generations--a go-to move of modern Conservatism. This serves multiple purposes. It's intended to defang arguments that center around equality, while also painting Feminism as being inherently misleading and inaccurate. He goes on to say Men and Women have lifted themselves out of the mire over a millennia. The irony here, is that it was only after the Women's Suffrage Movement that women were lifted up--the movement which basically proves his entire preamble to this statement to be false. Men and Women were not always equal, history is filled to the brim with centuries if not millennia of Men subjugating Women. He describes the idea that human history is full of the subjugation of Women by Men, as reprehensible, and goes on to attack Academia and the Public School system for representing that idea as fact.

He then goes off on another silly monologue saying that society places a "burden" on young Men, making them worry about contributing to things like Rape Culture and Toxic Masculinity. Not sure how that's a bad thing, but apparently it makes it just oh so hard for young Men to be confidant if they are worried they might be doing things that contribute to the Rape of Women. We should remove these barriers he says! Tucker then asks him why if Men were in control they would cede power like this. Peterson laughs it off but he knows the answer. Men didn't give up control, equality was fought for. Women fought hard for equality, and eventually they started to make progress. He goes on to subtly describe Feminism, the years of effort that went into getting Women some level of equality, as an "insidious ideology". Then when asked what parents should do to protect their boys, we get this amazing response:

If you have your children in a school and they talk about equity--and there's a class--and they talk about equity, diversity, uhhh, inclusivity, white privilege, systemic racism, any of that, you take your children out of the class. They're not being educated, they're being indoctrinated. And there's absolutely no excuse for it.

If this guy isn't Alt-Right, he's pushing people towards the Alt-Right, and there's no way he doesn't notice it. There was a video linked to one of his describing the "Libertarian-to-Alt-Right Pipeline", and it made some valid points, and that concept makes Peterson a perfect candidate for pushing young men in that direction. His insistence on embracing "Personal Responsibility" and focusing on individuals is a core concept of Libertarianism, and also a concept within the Far Right. He may not actively hold Right Wing views, but he definitely encourages people to reject more Progressive thinking by trying to constantly reject the idea of educating people on diversity and racism. I would characterize him as a Libertarian that advocates sticking your head in the sand when it comes to the issue of Race. He's not openly attacking minorities, but he's saying they're basically just complaining because they can't take responsibility for their own lives--which resonates with the White Nationalists.
 

Tiopes

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
410
He already did mention the article on Twitter, only addressing the plug mid-article for the pseudo-intellectual parody book that went completely over his head (because he's actually a moron). And his twitter being a nightmare of hoaxes and conspiracy theories is not him "not knowing how to Twitter".

When he's making podcast rounds defending Kekistan, you don't get to pretend he's separate from that cesspool.

I'm talking about he discussing with a bot, not his weird retweets.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,122
Limburg
I said it in an earlier post, but yes. There seems to be a lust from the right to actually have someone construct a half-decent argument. Probably because all the Fox News/Tea Party/Trumps of the world look like absolute fools in any honest conversation.
To me it looks like a reaction to it more than being the same thing.

They just want the veneer of intellectualism, they don't want to actually have arguments based on evidence, because the evidence isn't in their favor. They want to subvert debate, discourse, and academia as tools for their purposes, not because they actually believe in those things broadly. They get spanked so badly in college campuses, they need to have safe spaces and special little snowflake groups to hate monger in without criticism. This is all in service of creating some room to get a foothold. They will tell you that they want to talk about new ideas, but it's all the same bullshit their conservative forefathers pushed in their day. Bigotry, misogyny, anti immigrant rhetoric. Nothing new, just a new coat of paint.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
They just want the veneer of intellectualism, they don't want to actually have arguments based on evidence, because the evidence isn't in their favor. They want to subvert debate, discourse, and academia as tools for their purposes, not because they actually believe in those things broadly. They get spanked so badly in college campuses, they need to have safe spaces and special little snowflake groups to hate monger in without criticism. This is all in service of creating some room to get a foothold. They will tell you that they want to talk about new ideas, but it's all the same bullshit their conservative forefathers pushed in their day. Bigotry, misogyny, anti immigrant rhetoric. Nothing new, just a new coat of paint.
Well, if it's really that easy then don't let him get away with it. Which he currently does.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,495
Wow seriously? That's not what he said. He said that makeup is sexual display and we don't know how to deal with sexuality at workplace today. This oversimplification is exactly why he's famous. Even this article is not exempt from it.

This article against Peterson is occasionally interesting but starting with a strawman in the first paragraph is not a good sign of quality. In some examples the "Harvard PhD student" completely misunderstands what Dr Peterson is saying (i.e chaos vs order and Nazism or on hitting women). In fact he chooses the parts where Peterson does indeed seem to meander, which he himself admits if the author would deign to watchwthe first minutes of his lecture and not the middle where Peterson says that his style of talking is verbose and pursuing multiple tangents and not for everyone.

In any case, I like Peterson in general. He does hold some interesting positions that resonate more with me than hard left/right ideals. I also agree that he lacks a counterpart to properly debate him, I mean those guys from Vox, Channel4 that he "destroys" (ok ok, those titles are ridiculous) are just not capable of pushing a solid argument or simply keep up. It's embarrassing really. Now if this student would like to debate Peterson - that could be interesting but he needs to polish up his arguments a bit more.

It seems I, like Peterson supposedly has, have stumbled upon a truth previously unknown to the world. I, in fact, do know how to deal with sexuality in the workplace today! I know exactly how to react to the sheer sexual display that is makeup, and I would love to tell this truth to the world.

The solution is simple: sometimes I think it looks nice.

Honestly, serious question: what do you take "we don't know how to deal with sexuality [in the] workplace today" to even mean? What could that possibly mean beyond justifying harassment because men saw women wearing makeup? I can't see how it's being taken out of context because the concept itself is ridiculous. And makeup, while it can be used to make oneself more attractive, isn't inherently a "sexual display" besides.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,122
Limburg
Well, if it's really that easy then don't let him get away with it. Which he currently does.

That's what people like me are trying to do, but this quote was in reference to his fans. They will hold him up as validation that they should be taken seriously as intellectual heavyweights.
 

klonere

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,439
why does he cry so much

i dont think lobsters are capable of crying and its not a very shoulders back, stand up straight room clean tame the female move.
 

Pedrito

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,369
Poor Jordan, unwillingly becoming the messiah of the alt-right.

It always cracks me up when people say "he's not alt-right/far-right, he's said it multiple times". It's just by accident that he shares their views on many issues. But add a nice coat of paint to dubvious views, some big words and a few diplomas, and you get the academic they were waiting for. When they troll for the lulz, they can now add footnotes!
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,132
UK
This is complete pretentious gobbledygook!
  • "Meaning is manifestation of the divine individual adaptive path"
  • "Meaning is the ultimate balance between… the chaos of transformation and the possibility and…the discipline of pristine order"
  • "Meaning is an expression of the instinct that guides us out into the unknown so that we can conquer it"
  • "Meaning is when everything there is comes together in an ecstatic dance of single purpose"
  • "Meaning means implication for behavioral output"
  • "Meaning emerges from the interplay between the possibilities of the world and the value structure operating within that world"
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
You do realize that math is essential to science. Thats how Maxwell, Newton and Einstein achieved their breakthroughs

No no no, I watched a cartoon, Newton had an apple fall on his head and that's how he came up gravity.

Also, I don't think a thread about Peterson is the same to start mentioning peeps like Newton and Einstein...
 

Ebullientprism

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,529
Jordan Peterson appears very profound and has convinced many people to take him seriously. Yet he has almost nothing of value to say.

This is the most accurate summary of the guy I have seen. Move the conversation to beyond twitter length and it is immediate he has nothing worthwhile to say and usually just ends up self promoting.

I can totally get how he became an alt right icon and a lightning rod of hate for the left. Quoted in snippets or out of context, he is incendiary. He is the perfect social media age intellectual. Like, share and favorite this comment right now.
 

Grug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,644
This is complete pretentious gobbledygook!
  • "Meaning is manifestation of the divine individual adaptive path"
  • "Meaning is the ultimate balance between… the chaos of transformation and the possibility and…the discipline of pristine order"
  • "Meaning is an expression of the instinct that guides us out into the unknown so that we can conquer it"
  • "Meaning is when everything there is comes together in an ecstatic dance of single purpose"
  • "Meaning means implication for behavioral output"
  • "Meaning emerges from the interplay between the possibilities of the world and the value structure operating within that world"

Jesus... it's like the gibberish of Deepak Chopra repackaged for angry white boys.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
Me, Jordan Peterson, an intellectual : I'm totally not alt-right inswear, I vehemently condemn such things

Also Me, Jordan Peterson, an intellectual : I hangout with actual white supremacists, have no issues with Kekistan, keep retweeting alt-right videos to my followers, I think women wish for brutal male dominion, I believe in actual neo Nazi conspiracy theories, I put out a actual hit list based on that conspiracy and also an against gay marriage specifically because of this conspiracy. I also directly endorse gamergate and promote it to my followers. Oh, also, women are responsible for harassment at the workplace.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
Oh, yes. They all use the same coded phrases when defending him.

"The left is taking his statements out of context!"

Or the one they use when they want to dodge critisim:

"He has some good points! Not all, but some!"
I don't think those are coded phrases. All those quotes say to me are "I've found value in his statements but haven't thought critically about his work as a whole."

Anyone have any good essays or transcripts of his most famous stuff? Does he talk a lot about purpose and meaning?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
jordan peterson is incredibly mad online because someone is publically casting doubt on a part of his identity that is important to how he defines himself

i think the technical term for what we are witnessing is "irony"
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Shout out to just typing "pa" in the searchbox showing me that his cult is desperately looking for Pankaj's twitter account to harass him.
 

Branu

Banned
Feb 7, 2018
1,029
No? Are you saying Peterson has not been valuable to my brother? He had been dealing with serious social and psychological issues to a debilitating degree for almost all of his life.
He credited Jordan Peterson's lectures for the fact that he has now taken control over his life and accomplishing the goals he sets out for himself, which I'm very proud of.
All I am saying is that Peterson must be doing something right if he could have such a positive impact on my brother where countless other psychologists/therapists have failed.

Oh and I still see no signs of my brother turning into a hateful bigot.



That's not the impression I got from the article. It seems that it was also dismissive of Jordan Peterson's work as a psychologist.
I am fully aware that people have problems with some of his politics. That would include me when it comes to some of his religious ideas.

Life isn't binary, nuanced shades of humanity existing in everyone. Many of the worst people throughout history exhibited impressive talents that many, like you, would seem to use as proof that they're not contemptible human beings. Jordan Peterson is a shill for the alt-right, making any positive contribution his teachings have had on your brother utterly meaningless to a discussion over the merit of his stances.
 

HarryHengst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,047
You do realize that math is essential to science. Thats how Maxwell, Newton and Einstein achieved their breakthroughs
Words are essential to any science, and words have specific meanings in academic discourse. Just because YOU do not understand that discourse doesnt mean that those scholars have no ideas. It just means that YOU lack the knowledge to fully understand them.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
I like for all his complaining about post-modernism that Jordan Peterson actually writes in a stereotypically difficult "post-modern" way. Where interpreting what the hell he's actually trying to say is half the battle.
 

Plok64

Member
Oct 27, 2017
145
Life isn't binary, nuanced shades of humanity existing in everyone. Many of the worst people throughout history exhibited impressive talents that many, like you, would seem to use as proof that they're not contemptible human beings. Jordan Peterson is a shill for the alt-right, making any positive contribution his teachings have had on your brother utterly meaningless to a discussion over the merit of his stances.

No I'm afraid that's just you imagining things I didn't say. I made no claim about whether Jordan Peterson is a net negative or a positive.
I found that the article and some of the people in this thread were dismissing his merit as a professional Psychologist.
My anecdotal story is not meant to prove anything to you, it's just me stating a disagreement based on personal experience.
You can take that with you or choose to ignore it.
 

FriedConsole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,187
I just noticed he was the latest guy posted by neckbeard fedora types.

Other smug douchebags these guys post:
  • Penn Jillette
  • Ricky Gervasis
  • Stephen Fry
  • Bill Mahr
  • Christopher Hitchens
  • Richard Dawkins
  • Joe Rogan
 

jipewithin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,094
This is complete pretentious gobbledygook!
  • "Meaning is manifestation of the divine individual adaptive path"
  • "Meaning is the ultimate balance between… the chaos of transformation and the possibility and…the discipline of pristine order"
  • "Meaning is an expression of the instinct that guides us out into the unknown so that we can conquer it"
  • "Meaning is when everything there is comes together in an ecstatic dance of single purpose"
  • "Meaning means implication for behavioral output"
  • "Meaning emerges from the interplay between the possibilities of the world and the value structure operating within that world"
Are those actual quotes?
 

Grug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,644
I just noticed he was the latest guy posted by neckbeard fedora types.

Other smug douchebags these guys post:
  • Penn Jillette
  • Ricky Gervasis
  • Stephen Fry
  • Bill Mahr
  • Christopher Hitchens
  • Richard Dawkins
  • Joe Rogan

There's several rightly celebrated intellectuals in that list that don't deserve to be lumped in with Peterson, nor be called "douchebags". Lest you look more than a little smug yourself.
 

Arkeband

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,663
I just noticed he was the latest guy posted by neckbeard fedora types.

Other smug douchebags these guys post:
  • Penn Jillette
  • Ricky Gervasis
  • Stephen Fry
  • Bill Mahr
  • Christopher Hitchens
  • Richard Dawkins
  • Joe Rogan

Being a smug douchebag in itself isn't a sin, and most of those people are just smug about atheism, they aren't Peterson freaking out the smooth brains by telling them ((The Left)) wants to put them into gulags.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,317

This is actually not true at all. Where you claim he is challenging an orthodoxy of the left, I'd argue he is instead constructing a shadow concept, a windmill of sorts that he can tilt at with great furor. He less challenges leftist orthodoxy as argue that there is some fabricated marxist movement that has power. However, the truth is he's not presenting new ideas. He's repackagaing the status quo in a sort of verbose package that allows the norm to sound not only new but not present. The greatest trick is arguing for basically what already is, while claiming what already is is not, and he creates a sort of fear of a fanatical is, a reality you can say, that in fact is not. This is that is not he then uses as a sort of aggressive strawman to essentially repackage the real is as a sort of new mode of being. Essentially, he convinces his followers that reality is not, and through his verbosity encourages them to fight for what already is under the false pretense of it not actually being.

That is to say, he takes the status quo, the current being of the country, and obscures it, transforms it, and hides it behind what I'd call a false shadow. This shadow, which he'd deem to be the threat of radical postmodern neo marxism, that I remind you does not in fact exist, he claims is looming over us, blocking us out from enlightenment. The trick then is that he presents our actual reality, our actual status quo, as an antidote to the false shadow which he claims real. He claims to be the light, the truth, the illumination that will chase the shadows away. This of course could not be further from the truth, he is not the light, far from it. What he might call a new enlightenment is in fact as I've stated the status quo. Far from lighting the path and beating back the shadow of postmodern neo-marxism, a neologism that frankly if one with even a passing knowledge of those independent concepts would realize is a form of literal absurdity, what Peterson does, not unlike a certain Charles Montgomery Burns once did, is seek to, through his teachings, his writings, his auditory presentations, his videograpahic treatises, and his socio-digital communications, block out the light of progress. For you see the shadow hanging over our society is not post-modern neomarxism, the shadow is the status quo. This shadow obfuscates inequality on every intersectional axis, when we are blinded by the dark we fail to see the truth of injustice of discrimination. So, what Peterson attempts to do with his argumentation is essentially block out the light of progress, make it more difficult for those who listen to him to recognize injustices, he seeks to make the status quo not the shadow, but the whole. He seeks to render no differentiation between the shadow and the light, he seeks uniformity in conformity, where if injustice is ever identified no distinction can ever be made between an empowered class and an oppressed class, where for example the claim of a war on Christmas is seen as equally credible as a Muslim immigrant ban.

It is funny he rants about about radical left, but what he is is the radical norm, the radical status quo if you'd like, and that radical status quo is far more powerful and dangerous than the postmodern neo-marxist windmills he tilts at.
Oh my god... dead.gif
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,132
UK
Here's anohter good article that you won't read about the dubious theoretical background of Yung Jordie Pee's writings

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/19/jordan-peterson-and-fascist-mysticism/
Closer examination, however, reveals Peterson's ageless insights as a typical, if not archetypal, product of our own times: right-wing pieties seductively mythologized for our current lost generations.

Yup, and people are falling for these myths and hearkening back to older times where equality wasn't a thing.

People call this Jordan Peterson dude a "liberal" when he spouts order = male, chaos = female Jungian stuff? Apart from his yearning that we don't follow religion as much anymore, he really loves the evopsych neuro pseudoscience.

jordan_peterson_chaos_order_sexist_by_bondgeek-dc6fi5j.png

jordan_peterson_scared_of_females_1_by_bondgeek-dc6fi5c.png

jordan_peterson_scared_of_females_by_bondgeek-dc6fi56.png

jordan_peterson_pseudoscience_brain_by_bondgeek-dc6fi5e.png


These passages are from both of his books "Maps Of Meaning" and "The 12 Rules Of Life", of course he repeats his key points.

It always comes down to dating and lonely rejected men with conservative reactionaries.
jordan_peterson_dating_lol_by_bondgeek-dc6fi5t.png


Has Jordan Peterson done any PUA courses for the insecure white men that are his main audience?
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
Good lord. A bad writer with horrible world views is warranting such a big thread filled with people being banned for liking him, people advocating self-help books and a lot of messages pointing out that he is a scumbag.

I kinda want to start writing these kinds of books just to see if I could get rich, though.
 

I Don't Like

Member
Dec 11, 2017
14,898


If you have your children in a school and they talk about equity--and there's a class--and they talk about equity, diversity, uhhh, inclusivity, white privilege, systemic racism, any of that, you take your children out of the class. They're not being educated, they're being indoctrinated. And there's absolutely no excuse for it.

If this guy isn't Alt-Right, he's pushing people towards the Alt-Right, and there's no way he doesn't notice it.


Thank you for providing that quote.

So let's be very clear about this:

Anyone who denies systemic racism, white privilege and rails against diversity is either a racist piece of shit or an ignorant piece of shit. Or both.

If you in turn find this person compelling and "love" listening to him, it speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
He's so right about how a lot of academic writing is verbose to the point where it becomes obscure and inaccessible. These quoted excerpts are complete nonsense.
 

Arkage

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
453
I might read this article later but from the quotes in the OP it seems like the author is saying everything Peterson has ever done academically is worthless - which is pretty dumb. One can be upset with Peterson's hot takes on certain aspects of masculinity and femininity and culture but his textbook about mythologies and systems wasn't based on that - and many of his interpretations of Biblical myths are pretty damn interesting in relation to psychological ideas that humanity has used to create a cohesive society. The author's claim that Peterson contributed nothing of value seems deeply motivated by the current things Peterson is saying rather than his actual body of work. I'd call the argument blatantly opportunistic due to the audience that will receive it with open arms.
 
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